My GM let me swap out my gunslinger (bolt ace) for an archery occultist in Carrion Crown last night. I'll post the relevant data in a separate thread, but will give some quick thoughts here.
First off, I didn't use a single focus power, for fear of losing the buffs my focus provided. Didn't have a problem with accuracy, but then again we're only level 6 with no full BAB classes, so I wouldn't feel outstripped anyway.
I used the +1 for the bow for spell storing and kept dropping shocking grasps into it, which was actually very effective, even if the action economy wasn't optimal. I passed the +2 deflection brooch to the rouge which saved his butt often (worst ac in the party). Built the implements to be versatile, which also helped at other points.
Love, love, LOVE the flavor and concept of this class, but feels like it's niche-less, even more so than other jack of trades classes. Archetypes may help making it more specific, but as the general class as is, it's not appallingly good or bad that I can see.
I am not sure if I agree with you regarding spell progression, necessarily. This class's spell progression is actually full of neat little quirks, imo. Though the class knows fewer low level spells, by level 7, you are going to have far more of your higher level spells known (when you have 4 spells known to the bard's 2). Then at level 10, you will have 5 4th level spells to the bard's 2. The difference kind of careens from there.Maybe that is why the melee combat falls off so hard? Because the class gets so much better at spell casting versatility?
I am not sure if I would buy that balance argument, though. I feel like the bard's spell list is pretty strong (especially with all those buffs) and the occultist spell selection is a little weird and uneven.
Perhaps the devs. decided to make the spell list in a sort of vacuum. Where they added what's most thematically appropriate. It would be nice to be able to customize the spell list. Also, it's unfortunate they are missing Greater Planar Binding. At end game, with all the spells they know, and abilities focused on binding, end up being much less useful if they are limited to 12hd creatures. No Gate either (but Summon Monster 9 is available). No Permanency either, which feels right for an artificer type character. I hate to say it, but Simulacrum seems to fit also. I'm mulling over in my head if the rote Summon Monster 1-9 really fits for them. I think the bindings are more appropriate. Perhaps they should learn true names like wizards do through their work binding creatures?
Something that might be interesting is having Occultists able to recharge items in a fashion similar to the Arcanist. Or use MP as charges.
Feats/MetaMagic - How do they apply to Focus/Resonant Powers? Is Servitor compatible with the summoning line of feats (Augment, Summon Good etc.)? Can you apply meta magic to the Evocation Powers (Ray, Blast, Shield)?
The more I look at the class, the more it feels it looses oomph at later levels. A 3/4 BAB class should have the option to build itself to be good in melee. A Summoner without the Eidolon and Summons is better in combat if you had focused on that angle. Armor and 3/4 BAB is just the chasis, we still need the engine, wheels etc. to do well.
hmm i have a question about the Soulbound doll, if i use a doll as the focus, what are the "familiar" limits? is it just the base Familiars i could use or is it any Familiar a wizard could have? lol just a question that passed my mind when re-reading the Soulbound doll section
I'd assume it would have the same limitations of any familiar as far as how far it can travel. It specifies "familiar", so any of those choices. Improved familiar would be out as far as my reading of it is concerned. So yes to a bat, no to an imp.
hmm i have a question about the Soulbound doll, if i use a doll as the focus, what are the "familiar" limits? is it just the base Familiars i could use or is it any Familiar a wizard could have? lol just a question that passed my mind when re-reading the Soulbound doll sectionI'd assume it would have the same limitations of any familiar as far as how far it can travel. It specifies "familiar", so any of those choices. Improved familiar would be out as far as my reading of it is concerned. So yes to a bat, no to an imp.
At least one improved familiar is specifically listed as being available; the homonculus. I would expect that any familiar is available as the feature states that you can create any familiar and the number of points you invest counts as your wizard level. Spend 7 points at first level and have an imp. Spend 8 points and have an imp consular.
If they wanted to avoid such confusion, they could simply state base familiars and the homonculus. If they want you to have all familiars, but not right away, simply add that at level X you can create improved familiars.
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I thought I'd share this...
I volunteered to run an Occultist in a PbP playtest run by the GM of another PbP I'm in. I'm really getting bogged down in the rules as I try to put together my character for this game. I've read them over a couple of times, and I'm still just not "getting" it.
I like the idea of this class: drawing power from psychic connections to objects. (That's what attracted me to the class.) However, this class is not straightforward.
I'm going to need to do a deep dive and really ponder the rules of this class for a while before I can figure out how to put together the character concept I came up with. Honestly, I'm finding the complexity of the rules for this class to be a bit of a barrier-- it's really draining my desire to play the class. This feels like work, not fun!
(Let me put my biases on the table: What attracts me to RPGs is the improvisational collective storytelling experience. I find the fiddly mechanical bits of "building" a character to be the least fun part of the game.)
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As for the three implements, two of them are of the same group (Transmutation) and I didn't see any restriction on having more than one implement from a group... you learn two implement groups at first level, and you can only choose one implement from each group to grant you spells from that school, but from my reading, there doesn't seem to be a restriction on putting mental focus into multiple implements from the same group. Am I missing something there?"Each implement group is represented by a small list of objects. Each day, the occultist selects an item from that list to be his implement for the day." That's from the top of the left column on page 42 in the playtest document.
I would interpret that as meaning if you've chosen Transmutation and Evocation then you get ONE implement from Transmutation and ONE from Evocation that you can empower for the day, but you can own multiple items that are capable of functioning as implements.
You need to keep reading, immediately after your quoted text is the exception:
Each implement group is represented by a small list of
objects. Each day, the occultist selects an item from that list
to be his implement for the day. The occultist needs only
one such item to cast a spell of the corresponding school,
unless he selected that implement group multiple times, in
which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained
from that group.
To me this means you can only place Mental Focus Points into one implement per times you've chosen that spell group. If you are a level one Occultist who has chosen Transmutation and Evocation you can put Mental Focus Points into one Transmutation implement and one evocation implement at a time. You're allowed to have multiple implements but can get the Resonant Power bonus from one Transmutation and one Evocation implement at a time. You can use multiple Transmutation implements for multiple transmutation resonant powers because you've only chosen Transmutation one time.
The wording on this is vague if we're having this much of a difference in interpretation of the rules. Or else I'm wrong and then I think the class is broken in that regard.
I finally got to read through the class in detail (probably the first of many) and it seems like transmutation is the go-to for the class. Overall the class looks pretty solid. Enchantment seems sort of weak, but I'll need to test it out to see if that's actually the case. That being said, I learn best by way of example. Any chance someone has a somewhat detailed example of how the class is played and to a lesser extent how it's built?
Also, under the soulbound puppet it says that if you use a doll shaped like the familiar (or skull / bones of it) that you can use it as that familiar yes? So, if I had a puppet shaped like a greensting scorpion and I used this implement for the day, I'd get a +4 to initiative through it?
I finally got to read through the class in detail (probably the first of many) and it seems like transmutation is the go-to for the class. Overall the class looks pretty solid. Enchantment seems sort of weak, but I'll need to test it out to see if that's actually the case. That being said, I learn best by way of example. Any chance someone has a somewhat detailed example of how the class is played and to a lesser extent how it's built?
Also, under the soulbound puppet it says that if you use a doll shaped like the familiar (or skull / bones of it) that you can use it as that familiar yes? So, if I had a puppet shaped like a greensting scorpion and I used this implement for the day, I'd get a +4 to initiative through it?
1. Click on my name for a stat block of the Occultist class.
2. If you have a skull, you can use soulbound puppet which will create a shape that looks like the familiar of the type you choose. While it looks like a greensting scorpion, it will still be a construct with the construct traits. You don't need the whole puppet, just a skull.
So I am putting together an Occultist for PFS play this weekend at Gamehole Con.
I know implements are not required to be magical, but what would one pay for a non-magical Rod, Staff or wand? Is it the same theory as a quarter staff? Its really just a stick?
(sorry if this was already covered)
John Compton posted in the PFS forum that any mundane iimplementtem without a listed price can be obtained for free.
Would a wayfinder qualify as a compass implement?
It seems like a perfect fit as a historic object, but my quick search did not turn up an answer.
As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter what the item is. (edit - as long as its a type of compass)
So, I figured I could use a sanity check here - the spells known for the Occultist:
1 spell from each spell level the Occultist is able to cast (1-6) for each school known?
So 7 schools (chosen from Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation) by level 18.
Total spells know are 42. 6 from each school. 7 schools total.
6 spells being able to be swapped around by 20th level (5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20).
Is this correct, or did I miss something obvious?
I, too, am a little confused on spell progression. (I'm only just now taking an in-depth look at the class, so I apologize if I missed something; I tried to review the entirety of the thread).
By my count, Cubic Prism, you'd actually have 7 spells known of each level (knacks plus 1 - 6) if you took all seven implement groups. I could be wrong, though.
More to the point, I'm not sure how taking multiple selections of the same implement group works. There is a part in the class writeup that says this:
"An occultist can choose to select an implement group more than once if he wishes, in order to learn more spells from the same school."
I'm wondering, though- does this only apply at the time of additional selection, or is it treated as its own "implement group" in terms of spells known? Example, which of these is correct:
1) I pick Abjuration a second time as my 4th implement group at level 6, so I gain an additional abjuration spell known of 1st and 2nd level. When I later learn to cast 3rd level spells at 7th level, I only gain 1 abjuration spell known (ie, Abjuration implement group is considered 1 group, regardless of how many times I select it).
2) Same scenario, but at 7th level, I will gain 2 3rd level Abjuration spells (ie, Abjuration implement group counts as 2 groups, because I selected it twice).
I believe the intent is for #2, but if it is #1, then there doesn't seem to be much reason to select an implement group twice until you are at higher levels, in order to maximize the number of spells known from that second choice.
The intent is indeed for #2. The total number of spells known will not change, but the number of schools represented can change.
For example, let's say a player chose to get only 4-5 schools. I'll make things simpler and say they took Divination, Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, and/or Transmutation. We'll assume Transmutation was reselected at least once, with the other school being either Evocation or Conjuration. The number of spells known for him would be the same as for an occultist who chose to grab all 7 implement groups. It's just that the variety drops for a little bit of specialization. The groups that were doubled up on grant another set of spells known from their respective lists.
Option (2) makes the most sense. Note that in some cases you may miss out on a spell or two because not every spell level has the same number of spells -- so it is very possible to pick one school/implement group more times than there are spells at a given level.
I finally got to read through the class in detail (probably the first of many) and it seems like transmutation is the go-to for the class. Overall the class looks pretty solid. Enchantment seems sort of weak, but I'll need to test it out to see if that's actually the case. That being said, I learn best by way of example. Any chance someone has a somewhat detailed example of how the class is played and to a lesser extent how it's built?
Check the playtest thread. Here's a report with two first level Occultist builds. One melee, one ranged.
Thanks, Kalvit and David- that's how I assume it is intended to work, and makes the most sense, just wanted to clarify with some of you who are more rules savvy than I.
Please don't expand this class's spell list past 6th level. Currently I'm playing in a higher level campaign with an occultist and the lower level spells have a really good balancing effect for utility and prevent the high level caster from being able to do everything.
Please don't expand this class's spell list past 6th level. Currently I'm playing in a higher level campaign with an occultist and the lower level spells have a really good balancing effect for utility and prevent the high level caster from being able to do everything.
You are playing a higher level campaign? Are you playing the Occultist like a gish or a full caster?
How is it balancing against other gishes and/or full casters?
You are playing a higher level campaign? Are you playing the Occultist like a gish or a full caster?
How is it balancing against other gishes and/or full casters?
We're level 16 at the moment.
It is being played as a full caster who saves enough self-buffs to gish in siege situations (if we know combat will be 30+ rounds long which does happen on occasion).It performs a distinct but equal roll to the party magus. The game is housed ruled to use focused casters such as dread necromancer, mesmerist, and warmage in place of wizard, sorcerer, and cleric. The occultist's versatility allows it to keep up with the focused casters in terms of usefulness but tends to fall behind when he tries to edge in on their speciality. Overall he's the guy who solves problems when something unexpected pops ups that the other party members (dread necro, zen archer, magus, and bard) just don't have the specialized tools for, which is in my opinion a very good spot for a generalist class.
You are playing a higher level campaign? Are you playing the Occultist like a gish or a full caster?
How is it balancing against other gishes and/or full casters?
We're level 16 at the moment.
It is being played as a full caster who saves enough self-buffs to gish in siege situations (if we know combat will be 30+ rounds long which does happen on occasion).
It performs a distinct but equal roll to the party magus. The game is housed ruled to use focused casters such as dread necromancer, mesmerist, and warmage in place of wizard, sorcerer, and cleric. The occultist's versatility allows it to keep up with the focused casters in terms of usefulness but tends to fall behind when he tries to edge in on their speciality. Overall he's the guy who solves problems when something unexpected pops ups that the other party members (dread necro, zen archer, magus, and bard) just don't have the specialized tools for, which is in my opinion a very good spot for a generalist class.
Well, that sounds about right. However, I am not sure your "focused" caster house rule is actually giving you a valuable baseline to evaluate the Occultist's versatility.
My suspicion is that the 16th level Occultist is still going to be less versatile than a 16th level cleric, oracle, wizard, or arcanist, even with her slowly expanding suite of powers and spells. It is just appearing more versatile to you since you are comparing the class to specialized class variants that limit their purview.
And I suppose it is nice to be able to buff into a "gish" but I am unconvinced that is appreciably better than a sorcerer or wizard under the effects of Transformation (which has an increasingly manageable component cost at later levels) or anything a cleric or oracle can buff into. In particular, an Oracle with the right mystery is probably much much better buffed before combat AND has access to 8th level spells by level 16.
You think I am right? Is there information I am missing about these house rules?
I think you're right however it's the way I'd like the class to be because I view the wizard, sorcerer, oracle, and cleric too powerful to really be considered in balance considerations. My prefered playing strata only really includes tier 3 and 4 class, so I'd like more classes to be made in that level of power/versatility. It's the same reason I don't think consider a combat class overpowered for beating out the fighter one on one nor do I think they're underpowered because a sufficiently optimized blade arcanist could roll them.
Apologies if this has been asked or answered already, but under the legacy weapon focus power for the transmutation implements, it says "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability, it gains that weapon special ability as long as it contains at least 3 points of mental focusper +1 equivalent of the special ability."
So does that mean the weapon I intend to use this focus power on needs an enhancement bonus to begin with? Just asking because of the "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability" part.
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Apologies if this has been asked or answered already, but under the legacy weapon focus power for the transmutation implements, it says "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability, it gains that weapon special ability as long as it contains at least 3 points of mental focusper +1 equivalent of the special ability."
So does that mean the weapon I intend to use this focus power on needs an enhancement bonus to begin with? Just asking because of the "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability" part.
OH man, I hope not! That would significantly screw up my Dex-based occultist I'm testing out in PFS right now.
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The following is mostly theory crafting but I did playtest a L1 character.
At L1 the character (Transformation/Conjuration) was quite viable, about on a par with a good 1st level cleric.
I'll add myself to the chorus thinking that this class needs some means of getting trapfinding. Probably in an archetype or feat.
The implements and powers are seriously unbalanced. Some (agile weapon at level 1) are very powerful. Others (spend focus to get to use a cantrip for 1 round) are very, very seriously underpowered.
It hurts to only have 2 knacks. Admittedly, I'll get a third at level 3. But that still puts one behind other classes. I'd suggest getting a knack of your choice at level 1.
Theory crafting and it looks like the class will be competitive to around L7 or so and then start to fall seriously behind. You'll be a mediocre fighter at that point (assuming you went that route), a mediocre spell caster, and your other abilities just aren't going to cut it.
The skill points are lowish, although acceptable. But 6 would seem better. Mind you, I was building a skill monkey with lots of knowledges so I'm definitely a bit biased.
The class is quite versatile but it doesn't appear that one can really make a build that shines as of yet. My planned knowledge/skill monkey character can probably be better done as an investigator. A fightery sort can probably be better done in any number of ways by the appropriate martial classes. A magus is a better gish. Etc.
I like the concept a lot. And the implementation feels like it is kinda close. Just lots of details need to be changed.
And playtesting at higher levels is absolutely required. Unfortunately, there isn't enough time for much of that to happen.
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Apologies if this has been asked or answered already, but under the legacy weapon focus power for the transmutation implements, it says "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability, it gains that weapon special ability as long as it contains at least 3 points of mental focusper +1 equivalent of the special ability."
So does that mean the weapon I intend to use this focus power on needs an enhancement bonus to begin with? Just asking because of the "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability" part.
No. This was addressed earlier in the thread. At least at the moment you can buy agile at level 1 (Assuming it is a weapon that can be used with weapon finesse)
OH man, I hope not! That would significantly screw up my Dex-based occultist I'm testing out in PFS right now.Apologies if this has been asked or answered already, but under the legacy weapon focus power for the transmutation implements, it says "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability, it gains that weapon special ability as long as it contains at least 3 points of mental focusper +1 equivalent of the special ability."
So does that mean the weapon I intend to use this focus power on needs an enhancement bonus to begin with? Just asking because of the "As long as the implement qualifies for the ability" part.
Waaaaay back at the beginning of this thread, Jason Buhlman confirmed that you can get a weapon enchantment on a mundane weapon at level 1. I think the bit about qualifying refers to putting melee-only enchantments on melee weapons, and the like.
Perhaps that is what the Psychic Weapon base power is meant for. You put the focus into the weapon (3 points) for say Agile weapon ability. However, the ability doesn't actually become active on the blade until you use a point and swift action to activate psychic weapon, and then the agile ability kicks in for that 1 minute.
Edit:
Waaaaay back at the beginning of this thread, Jason Buhlman confirmed that you can get a weapon enchantment on a mundane weapon at level 1. I think the bit about qualifying refers to putting melee-only enchantments on melee weapons, and the like.
Ah. Good to know.
Edit #2:
That being known. Does that mean I could have a keen agile scimitar if I put 6 points of mental focus into the weapon at lv. 5?
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Perhaps that is what the Psychic Weapon base power is meant for. You put the focus into the weapon (3 points) for say Agile weapon ability. However, the ability doesn't actually become active on the blade until you use a point and swift action to activate psychic weapon, and then the agile ability kicks in for that 1 minute.
Edit:
Waaaaay back at the beginning of this thread, Jason Buhlman confirmed that you can get a weapon enchantment on a mundane weapon at level 1. I think the bit about qualifying refers to putting melee-only enchantments on melee weapons, and the like.Ah. Good to know.
Edit #2:
That being known. Does that mean I could have a keen agile scimitar if I put 6 points of mental focus into the weapon at lv. 5?
Sure could.
Well then I think I found my newest favorite class to do melee with. Maybe they'll have an archetype for doing natural damage ala wearing an animal skin.
Going to throw together a build tonight or tomorrow and give this a self-playtest though.
Thanks for the answers everyone!
The base focus power for illusion seems a little odd. Either a knack or a second level spell as a standard action. Minor image is cool, and I could see where- if it only cost 1 point of focus and a swift or immediate action- the ghost sound ability could be useful to enhance a silent image spell (especially if you didn't have ghost image on your spell list.) As is, it seems a kind of odd pairing.
To me, I'd actually be fine trading out the minor image option for something like: 1 focus, and cast either ghost sound or silent image as an immediate action- swapping out the higher level spell for something that could be used to supplement a Spell Known. That way- in addition to allowing the Occultist to have the option of saving a precious spell slot for something he might potentially need later (by using his focus), it could also potentially save a Known Spell slot while still providing some versatility to a Known Spell slot that was filled (in this case, either ghost sound or silent image.
Just a thought.
Anyway, I will say that- while this class seemed somewhat complicated on a first read-through- now that I'm sitting down and taking a closer look and actually creating a character with it, it doesn't seem as if it will take quite as much rules-savvy as I'd first feared.
In any event- like every other class in this playtest- I absolutely love the flavor and uniqueness of it.
If you ever watched the Dresden Files TV show (which was good despite being vastly different from the books), Harry used a drumstick as a rod and a Hockey stick as his staff. I may have to use something similar for my occultist.
I loved that show SOOOOO much. Then I read the books. They changed a lot for the show, but mostly GOOD changes, and I'm one of the rare ones that like the show better!
Hockey stick staff... Bob the ghost... All for the win :D
Edit #2:
That being known. Does that mean I could have a keen agile scimitar if I put 6 points of mental focus into the weapon at lv. 5?
You can do it at level 4.