He seems to be missing a feat. If you make it Spirit Specialization (Strength), that'll give another +1 to hit and damage. Compared to the Abyssal bloodrager (most comparable) in a bloodrage, I'm looking at comparable damage and accuracy even without going Huge (I believe down by 1 in accuracy and ahead in damage if they both use manufactured weapons and don't Power Attack, or equal accuracy and behind by 2 in damage if they both use manufactured weapons and do Power Attack), and the reach advantage and better damage than the bloodrager when Huge. Obviously a bigger edge over the non-raging bloodrager.I revamped Drek the Destroyer. Looking at the numbers, he's going to be dealing about half the damage of a 2-handed fighter or barbarian. I had originally set Drek up to use a two-handed weapon, but the average damage was even worse.
I could easily bring him up to be much closer to barbarian DPR; dip barbarian or blood rager. Sad that this is so frequently the solution to improving a classes melee ability.
Revised Drek.
Adding Spirit Specialization (Strength) brought his numbers up a bit.
Dropping Power Attack for Weapon Focus brought his numbers up even more.He's still a bit behind where I was with my monk before the ACG, but not doing too bad. The limiting factor seems to be The Bear's inability to stack size increases from spells the spirit grants with his always on size increases.
Cool, Arthantos!
Let's see if I can do a thought experiment about Mo the Bear Medium and Bob the Abyssal Bloodrager. Mo and Bob always make all the same choices in everything (including they both take Power Attack and use it at the same times), except Mo takes Spirit Specialization (Strength) instead of Bob taking Extra Rage (or Raging Vitality, or some other ragey thing). Otherwise, they just keep choosing the same choices as each other.
Level 1: No Bloodrage or Trance—Mo +1 to hit and +2 to damage. Bloodrage and no Trance—Bob +1 to hit, equal damage. Bloodrage and Trance—Bob +1 to hit, Mo +2 damage and reach
Level 4: No Bloodrage or Trance—Mo +2 to hit and +3 to damage. Bloodrage and no Trance—equal to hit, Bob +1 to damage and reach. Bloodrage and Trance—equal to hit, Mo +1 damage, both have reach
I think my reading comprehension has failed me again, but I have a question:
Say I'm a 13th level medium. I do my seance and choose the Bear (Str N) as my first spirit, the Beating (Str E) as my second and the Teamster (Con N) as my third.
I gain +4 attack and damage, +4 fortitude and +12 HP and (here's the actual question):
a)Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater and Dogpile. Or
b)Enormous and Dogpile.
If b) can I choose an ealier power, i.e. take Enormous and Beater, or Dogpile and Paws?Also: When doing a Shared Seance with my party do we get the seance bonus of all the three spirits or only of the primary?
You get Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater, and Dogpile, and your party gets all 3. A solid triumverate all around. Rock on, my medium brother!
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You get Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater, and Dogpile, and your party gets all 3. A solid triumverate all around. Rock on, my medium brother!I think my reading comprehension has failed me again, but I have a question:
Say I'm a 13th level medium. I do my seance and choose the Bear (Str N) as my first spirit, the Beating (Str E) as my second and the Teamster (Con N) as my third.
I gain +4 attack and damage, +4 fortitude and +12 HP and (here's the actual question):
a)Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater and Dogpile. Or
b)Enormous and Dogpile.
If b) can I choose an ealier power, i.e. take Enormous and Beater, or Dogpile and Paws?Also: When doing a Shared Seance with my party do we get the seance bonus of all the three spirits or only of the primary?
All 3? Missed that. Cool.
All 3? Missed that. Cool.You get Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater, and Dogpile, and your party gets all 3. A solid triumverate all around. Rock on, my medium brother!I think my reading comprehension has failed me again, but I have a question:
Say I'm a 13th level medium. I do my seance and choose the Bear (Str N) as my first spirit, the Beating (Str E) as my second and the Teamster (Con N) as my third.
I gain +4 attack and damage, +4 fortitude and +12 HP and (here's the actual question):
a)Paws, Massive, Enormous, Beater and Dogpile. Or
b)Enormous and Dogpile.
If b) can I choose an ealier power, i.e. take Enormous and Beater, or Dogpile and Paws?Also: When doing a Shared Seance with my party do we get the seance bonus of all the three spirits or only of the primary?
Yep! So when you hit your second spirit, if you're taking it for the spirit bonus and not the lesser spirit power, having a good seance boon is a really good choice.
In that case having a Strenght spirit bridges the BAB easily and the right spirits can give you the extra to hit to stand at the frontlines. I don't think this class needs to be full BAB. Leave that change either to the Kineticist or the Occultist.
On my medium above I can trance the Owl for another +4 att and damage against a fragile opponent, Big Sky to pretty much ignore DR or some of the other 36 spirits might also have a good option. Combat mediums are pretty good.
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As I re read the Medium a question did occur to me. You lose 1 influence every day BEFORE you Seance. So if I had Influence 3 with a spirit from the previous day, it drops to 2 before I seance, I can freely replace it right? The 3 point "can't get rid of me" clause only seems to come into play if you try to Trance swap that spirit OR if you had 4 points, blacked out, and came to with 3 in time to seance. Thankfully Seance has the clause where it doesn't give more influence if you're at 2 or higher or it would become a self feeding cycle of blackout steve the possessed man.
Yes, that is what a lot of people are missing. Preparing the same spirit everyday is not increasing your influence cumulatively, the only way to effectively increase your influence beyond what will be set to zero the next day is through trance or some spirit abilities like the Rakshasa's "All Are Slaves to the Rakshasa"
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i see a few people asking for less spirits, please don't remove options from this class. i doubt you would, but figure i should say something.
you had mentioned one of the non printed spirits gives weapon proficiencies in exotics, is that a level one ability?
could you clarify that if you seance the same spirit every day, and even trance it once a day, you are in no danger of going to 4 influence?
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i see a few people asking for less spirits, please don't remove options from this class. i doubt you would, but figure i should say something.
you had mentioned one of the non printed spirits gives weapon proficiencies in exotics, is that a level one ability?
could you clarify that if you seance the same spirit every day, and even trance it once a day, you are in no danger of going to 4 influence?
@Fewer options—Henry, I'm with you buddy in my personal opinions, but I have to listen to everyone's points of view and take them all into consideration. I will say that I would prefer to keep the options open.
@The Forge—It starts with all martial, gaining free extra enhancements like a magus's arcane pool and exotic proficiencies.
@Clarification—You're absolutely correct Henry. Let's follow Rachel, a 7th-level medium who is calling the Rakshasa every day.
Day 1: Rachel starts with 0 influence from the rakshasa. In her seance, she calls the rakshasa and is now at 1. Then she trances the rakshasa because she wants to move the fighter up to an enemy with Puppetmaster so the fighter can take a full attack on the first round after she moves the fighter. She is now at 2 influence.
Day 2: Just before her seance, she goes down to 1 influence. Then she goes back up to 2 when she calls the rakshasa again. She trances the rakshasa for Puppetmaster again and goes up to 3.
Day 3: The Rakshasa sticks with Rachel, seeding her dreams with subtle suggestions of dominance, power, and dominion over others. She cannot get rid of the spirit the next day. However, the influence drops to 2, and it does not increase during the seance (can't go above 2). She then trances to Puppetmaster again and has 3 again.
Day 4+: These are exactly the same as Day 3. She never goes to 4...unless she uses All Are Slaves or trances a second time!
Well if you don't want to remove the options, at least streamline them? Make it simpler to choose, or combine them into categories for ease. Like narrow things down to six ability score categories, with some different options for the alignments in each one? Would make it less daunting than HERO and you'd still have 54 options. Right now, I've read through it at least 5 times and I still have no idea what the medium actually does.
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i see a few people asking for less spirits, please don't remove options from this class. i doubt you would, but figure i should say something.
you had mentioned one of the non printed spirits gives weapon proficiencies in exotics, is that a level one ability?
could you clarify that if you seance the same spirit every day, and even trance it once a day, you are in no danger of going to 4 influence?
@Fewer options—Henry, I'm with you buddy in my personal opinions, but I have to listen to everyone's points of view and take them all into consideration. I will say that I would prefer to keep the options open.
@The Forge—It starts with all martial, gaining free extra enhancements like a magus's arcane pool and exotic proficiencies.
@Clarification—You're absolutely correct Henry. Let's follow Rachel, a 7th-level medium who is calling the Rakshasa every day.
Day 1: Rachel starts with 0 influence from the rakshasa. In her seance, she calls the rakshasa and is now at 1. Then she trances the rakshasa because she wants to move the fighter up to an enemy with Puppetmaster so the fighter can take a full attack on the first round after she moves the fighter. She is now at 2 influence.
Day 2: Just before her seance, she goes down to 1 influence. Then she goes back up to 2 when she calls the rakshasa again. She trances the rakshasa for Puppetmaster again and goes up to 3.
Day 3: The Rakshasa sticks with Rachel, seeding her dreams with subtle suggestions of dominance, power, and dominion over others. She cannot get rid of the spirit the next day. However, the influence drops to 2, and it does not increase during the seance (can't go above 2). She then trances to Puppetmaster again and has 3 again.
Day 4+: These are exactly the same as Day 3. She never goes to 4...unless she uses All Are Slaves or trances a second time!
Now, say she trances on day 4, but uses the Trance to grab another spirit, instead of boosting Rakshasa. This is fine and won't bump her to 4, right?
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208 abilities? Pff. Has anyone counted how many freaking arcane spells exists on all pathfinder books?But they don't all relate to basic class abilities. Furthermore, a wizard has you narrow that down with school specialization.The same statement will apply to Mediums. Most characters will be built around using a handful of spirits, with the remaining choices only used for specific situations.
In much the same manner that a wizard may have dozens of spells in his spellbook, but tends to memorize the same spells on a daily basis.
One huge difference between spells and medium spirits (as opposed to shaman spirits, spirits of the deal, kami, undead, haunts - which begs the question, what exactly is a spirit in Pathfinder, it seems every book has a new version) is that spells are mostly applicable to multiple classes, which means the learning curve of getting to know them is far more useful to a player - understanding hold person helps you understand clerics, oracles, wizards, sorcerers, bards, etc.
In addition, spells are concrete in that they do one thing - and you can fairly easily assess if you want your character to be able to do to that thing and decide if you want to learn or prepare that spell. For mediums, you can have assess 54 different bundles of powers, and decide if you really want ability A, do you want to invest in abilities B, C, D, and E to get it. That's a far more complex decision.
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You know, there are a lot of fighter archetypes, yet i have to find a fighter player who knows or cares about the X number of archetypes that exists. Most i know play vanilla.
Having many options is never bad, unless you actually care about optimizing.
Now, say she trances on day 4, but uses the Trance to grab another spirit, instead of boosting Rakshasa. This is...i see a few people asking for less spirits, please don't remove options from this class. i doubt you would, but figure i should say something.
you had mentioned one of the non printed spirits gives weapon proficiencies in exotics, is that a level one ability?
could you clarify that if you seance the same spirit every day, and even trance it once a day, you are in no danger of going to 4 influence?
@Fewer options—Henry, I'm with you buddy in my personal opinions, but I have to listen to everyone's points of view and take them all into consideration. I will say that I would prefer to keep the options open.
@The Forge—It starts with all martial, gaining free extra enhancements like a magus's arcane pool and exotic proficiencies.
@Clarification—You're absolutely correct Henry. Let's follow Rachel, a 7th-level medium who is calling the Rakshasa every day.
Day 1: Rachel starts with 0 influence from the rakshasa. In her seance, she calls the rakshasa and is now at 1. Then she trances the rakshasa because she wants to move the fighter up to an enemy with Puppetmaster so the fighter can take a full attack on the first round after she moves the fighter. She is now at 2 influence.
Day 2: Just before her seance, she goes down to 1 influence. Then she goes back up to 2 when she calls the rakshasa again. She trances the rakshasa for Puppetmaster again and goes up to 3.
Day 3: The Rakshasa sticks with Rachel, seeding her dreams with subtle suggestions of dominance, power, and dominion over others. She cannot get rid of the spirit the next day. However, the influence drops to 2, and it does not increase during the seance (can't go above 2). She then trances to Puppetmaster again and has 3 again.
Day 4+: These are exactly the same as Day 3. She never goes to 4...unless she uses All Are Slaves or trances a second time!
You mean she does a second trance for a different spirit on day 4 (she is assumed to always trance the rakshasa once a day)? Yep, she has 1 influence with that other spirit.
Archetypes are just exchanging a class feature for another. Spirits are adding more and more that will be interlocking and working in tandem with each other. It's really not comparable, except that some archetypes can work with others of the same class. But that's minor (at most I've seen three archetypes combined) compared to the 54 spirits right out of the box. And most players don't go out of their way to combine as many archetypes as they can. While that style of combining is a part of the Medium
I just want some streamlining. Options are great, but Christ, 54 class ability packages is a bit insane. Make it easier to digest with better explanations or even a table that gives a brief description, like the Feat Tables.
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Well if you don't want to remove the options, at least streamline them? Make it simpler to choose, or combine them into categories for ease. Like narrow things down to six ability score categories, with some different options for the alignments in each one? Would make it less daunting than HERO and you'd still have 54 options. Right now, I've read through it at least 5 times and I still have no idea what the medium actually does.
A very good point Odraude. One easy thing you'll be able to do for a simple selection is grab all your spirits from the same ability score or alignment. I also intend to include archetypes that make selection easier (how cool would an archetype be that literally draws randomly from the Harrow deck and gets something extra for the uncertainty?)
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Archetypes are just exchanging a class feature for another. Spirits are adding more and more that will be interlocking and working in tandem with each other. It's really not comparable, except that some archetypes can work with others of the same class. But that's minor (at most I've seen three archetypes combined) compared to the 54 spirits right out of the box. And most players don't go out of their way to combine as many archetypes as they can. While that style of combining is a part of the Medium
I just want some streamlining. Options are great, but Christ, 54 class ability packages is a bit insane. Make it easier to digest with better explanations or even a table that gives a brief description, like the Feat Tables.
The point is that you dont have to use /care about them all. I agree however they could use simpler language/format
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Well if you don't want to remove the options, at least streamline them? Make it simpler to choose, or combine them into categories for ease. Like narrow things down to six ability score categories, with some different options for the alignments in each one? Would make it less daunting than HERO and you'd still have 54 options. Right now, I've read through it at least 5 times and I still have no idea what the medium actually does.A very good point Odraude. One easy thing you'll be able to do for a simple selection is grab all your spirits from the same ability score or alignment. I also intend to include archetypes that make selection easier (how cool would an archetype be that literally draws randomly from the Harrow deck and gets something extra for the uncertainty?)
It sounds really cool, and a lot of home games would probably enjoy it. I can see it also slowing down play as a player figures out what their abilities do each day. Ideally this class should take no longer to run than a summoner. :P
It sounds really cool, and a lot of home games would probably enjoy it. I can see it also slowing down play as a player figures out what their abilities do each day. Ideally this class should take no longer to run than a summoner. :PWell if you don't want to remove the options, at least streamline them? Make it simpler to choose, or combine them into categories for ease. Like narrow things down to six ability score categories, with some different options for the alignments in each one? Would make it less daunting than HERO and you'd still have 54 options. Right now, I've read through it at least 5 times and I still have no idea what the medium actually does.A very good point Odraude. One easy thing you'll be able to do for a simple selection is grab all your spirits from the same ability score or alignment. I also intend to include archetypes that make selection easier (how cool would an archetype be that literally draws randomly from the Harrow deck and gets something extra for the uncertainty?)
I'm hoping/thinking that random draw + look up abilities should be much faster than the wizard or cleric choosing their daily spells.
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The point is that you dont have to use /care about them all. I agree however they could use simpler language/formatArchetypes are just exchanging a class feature for another. Spirits are adding more and more that will be interlocking and working in tandem with each other. It's really not comparable, except that some archetypes can work with others of the same class. But that's minor (at most I've seen three archetypes combined) compared to the 54 spirits right out of the box. And most players don't go out of their way to combine as many archetypes as they can. While that style of combining is a part of the Medium
I just want some streamlining. Options are great, but Christ, 54 class ability packages is a bit insane. Make it easier to digest with better explanations or even a table that gives a brief description, like the Feat Tables.
And my point is that you can't compare the two. Archetypes are options that you don't need. You can play the game without archetypes. the Spirits are compulsory. Spirit usage of 4 spirits is built into the class, so you're going to have to scour the 54 spirits to find four that work well with your character concept. You're essentially forced into grabbing up to four archetypes and using them for your character. It's a bit much and you only really can compare it to the cross-blooded sorcerer (and oracle version) archetypes. And even then, you choose the class abilities from the blood lines and at the end of the day, that archetype is your choice.
Options are great, but complexity without any form of streamlining is a waste.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I never saw a reply to this question raised by RainyDayNinja, so I thought I'd ask it again:
Can bonus feats given by a spirit count as feat prerequisites? In other words, if I always plan to use The Beating as my primary spirit, can I take feats with Improved Unarmed Strike as prerequisites, with the understanding that if The Beating is ever NOT my primary spirit, I lose access to that feat?
I never saw a reply to this question raised by RainyDayNinja, so I thought I'd ask it again:
Can bonus feats given by a spirit count as feat prerequisites? In other words, if I always plan to use The Beating as my primary spirit, can I take feats with Improved Unarmed Strike as prerequisites, with the understanding that if The Beating is ever NOT my primary spirit, I lose access to that feat?
If you pump your influence up to 3 and keep it there, you should be able to keep the Beating on full time, so I think nothing is stopping you. You're correct that you would lose the feats that required IUS if you then lost the Beating, until you got Beating again.
I'm hoping/thinking that random draw + look up abilities should be much faster than the wizard or cleric choosing their daily spells.Except the wizard and cleric can keep a default spell list(s), while there will always be bookkeeping for a medium that relies on random draw.
I've usually seen prepared casters keep a default list but consistently make a small number of swap-outs from that list each day. I believe the swap outs take longer than the aforementioned effect, but I'd love to see playtest data if you want to try out random draw of two spirits vs altering a standard list for a 9th level wizard or cleric (I can't generate it myself, it'll be biased in speed).
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Count me in as a vote for keeping all 54 Spirits. I remember back with the Binder in 3.5 how the just-under-20 Vestiges were quite quickly "not enough" for my group and we became addicted to the homebrewing vestiges thread on WOTC's site. Definitely in favor of a large variety of spirit options - I agree that it looks daunting, but most players will latch onto a small handful they like and not make use of the others, I imagine.
Having read through the class but without yet having had the chance to playtest in modules, I'm slightly concerned about how the class would end up functioning.
As others have raised up, the class doesn't have many options in low level play by default, with only one spirit, one lesser ability, and one trance option. In addition to this, without using a strength spirit, or spirit that functions as a strength spirit, the class doesn't function as a martial combatant, and with the low amount of magical tricks at their disposal, it is almost certain that the class will be used as martial, hence forcing the usage of strength spirit.
This leads to a secondary effect of either having to have two strength spirits in your known spirits (which is either 2/3 or 1/2 your known spirits at low level realistically, at least.) that somehow both complement your playstyle and concept (unlikely). If you don't, you will very quickly climb into the 3 influence rank, and be stuck with your spirit, and if you get option to trance again, poof, 24 hours of NPCdom for you.
While realistically it is rather hard or impossible to climb into 4 influence on lower levels, you are effectively forced to accept climb into 3, since you will trance, because otherwise you have very little options, and if you don't get travel days, you will be at 3 and stuck there.
In addition while the spirit bonus is good at balancing the odds between this class and others, I think it still probably lags behind actual dedicated martials, as spirit bonus only brings it around up to par with them, before they use any of their actual powers, while you are already using your bonus. When the martials use their powers, well then you are again behind the curve.
I compared the class to martials most since it has the same casting levels as them, and gains bonuses from class abilities. However, the Medium has worse saves, worse BaB and worse proficiency list. These are somewhat made up by the spirits, but not entirely, and having things like weapon proficiencies tied to spirits, merely means you can't change out of the spirit once you get your magic weapon, assuming it is a martial or exotic weapon and you didn't stick to simple (which you probably won't if you play as a martial style).
I apologise for the long wall of text there, but this is the class along with Kinetist I'm most exited about, so I wanted to bring up the issues that so far came to mind, and give some reasoning to them.
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@The Forge—It starts with all martial, gaining free extra enhancements like a magus's arcane pool and exotic proficiencies.
OH GOD OH MAN! When can we expect a full transcript of The Forge so I can include it in an AP I wish to play a Medium in? :D
On that note, is there going to be a revised playtest document like with ACG last year?
While I do like the medium (an inherited love from the 3.5 binder, its obvious ancestor), I think having 54 spirits is a case of symmetry for symmetry's sake. Here's what I would do to simplify the class.
1) Drop the alignment restrictions for binding multiple spirits. Make as many spirits as you can make cool abilities for, and then stop. Grid filling then becomes unnecessary.
2) Streamline the abilities a bit more. The seance bonus and the ability to give them to the party is cool, keep those. The spirit bonus mostly seems like a separate entity to have something to trade out for archetypes, I guess. Otherwise, I would roll them up into the lesser powers, and have the higher bonuses in the higher tier powers.
3) The dual/triune/quartenary aspect thing is overly complex. I'd rather see "At 5th level, you can channel two spirits. You get their powers." Done. At 11th, you can channel 3. At 17th, you can channel 4. (Or not. I think 4 might be overkill, but I'd have to see.)
4) There's no need for spirit abilities that reference other abilities. I'm think of some of the Wisdom spirit abilities that have the Spirit act as a Strength spirit in some situations, thus causing the player to have to reference a whole new menu of options, and have some bonuses either appear or disappear. That's just painful.
5) Giving every spirit a spell list seems to add extra work, again for the sake of symmetry. I'd rather see the medium have their own small spell list, and a small list of spells known.
Have some spirits (not all, but some that are obvious spellcasters, like The Unicorn, The Lost, The Devil's Lantern, for example) have powers that let you treat some spells as being on your spell known list while being channeled.
I had many similar impressions. I'd like for the top-down design of the spirits to work, but it's definitely showing signs of overextending. The points made in #2, #3, and then #5 with regards to the medium spellcasting are all spot-on, in my opinion. Elegance before complexity, I say.
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I'd rather the class didn't get spells at all and relied entirely on the spirit's abilities with an increase to full BAB and a good fort save. Or rather if not full BAB then a faster scaling spirit bonus to compensate.
BUT 54 spirits is okay with me, more if possible.. I always craved more vestiges for the Binder.
@Clarification—You're absolutely correct Henry. Let's follow Rachel, a 7th-level medium who is calling the Rakshasa every day.Day 1: Rachel starts with 0 influence from the rakshasa. In her seance, she calls the rakshasa and is now at 1. Then she trances the rakshasa because she wants to move the fighter up to an enemy with Puppetmaster so the fighter can take a full attack on the first round after she moves the fighter. She is now at 2 influence.
Day 2: Just before her seance, she goes down to 1 influence. Then she goes back up to 2 when she calls the rakshasa again. She trances the rakshasa for Puppetmaster again and goes up to 3.
Day 3: The Rakshasa sticks with Rachel, seeding her dreams with subtle suggestions of dominance, power, and dominion over others. She cannot get rid of the spirit the next day. However, the influence drops to 2, and it does not increase during the seance (can't go above 2). She then trances to Puppetmaster again and has 3 again.
Day 4+: These are exactly the same as Day 3. She never goes to 4...unless she uses All Are Slaves or trances a second time!
Ok that answers my question about influence. So even though you technically drop from 3 to 2 before your next Seance you still HAVE to bind that spirit.
I'm hoping/thinking that random draw + look up abilities should be much faster than the wizard or cleric choosing their daily spells.It sounds really cool, and a lot of home games would probably enjoy it. I can see it also slowing down play as a player figures out what their abilities do each day. Ideally this class should take no longer to run than a summoner. :PWell if you don't want to remove the options, at least streamline them? Make it simpler to choose, or combine them into categories for ease. Like narrow things down to six ability score categories, with some different options for the alignments in each one? Would make it less daunting than HERO and you'd still have 54 options. Right now, I've read through it at least 5 times and I still have no idea what the medium actually does.A very good point Odraude. One easy thing you'll be able to do for a simple selection is grab all your spirits from the same ability score or alignment. I also intend to include archetypes that make selection easier (how cool would an archetype be that literally draws randomly from the Harrow deck and gets something extra for the uncertainty?)
Can we get consideration on a modified Harrow Deck that lists the Medium spirit abilities? :-)
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I'd be fine with 54 options if they all stood on their own, but you have to chain spirits together through their alignment or ability score relationships, which determines what they do for you (and can actually change based on some powers or trances). That's going to get super complicated fast, and it's entirely possible for an unaware player to build a character that just can't have multiple spirits at the same time.
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Much of this has been said, but I wanted to throw my two cents in, too!
The medium's base mechanics seem really cool, and I LOVE the flavor, but I agree that the class needs either full BAB+d10 HD or 6-level casting progression to be viable at lower levels. Also, increasing the ability to use the trance feature seems like a good call to me, as so many of the things that make the class unique rely on it. Of course, a static "uses/day" increase won't mean too much unless the amount of influence one can accrue before possession happens increases, too... Maybe it could scale with level, somehow, to express the medium's growing mastery of his/her powers?
While I do agree that the spirits' abilities could use some streamlining (I can see how the "counts as multiple ability scores" thing could get confusing, for example), I would be really, really sad to see the number of spirit options (and, by extension, much of the Harrow flavor) get cut down in an effort to clarify the class feature.
Overall, this class seems super interesting, and I can't wait to see how it ends up!
In regards to the idea of a Medium who randomly draws their Spirits from a Harrow deck. I personally LOVE that idea! I think that it would work really well if you do a couple things though.
First they don't have Spirits Known. Instead the whole deck is fair game, but it's all random. So if you trance in a Spirit it's just another draw from the deck, hope it's the right one! And remove the restriction on matching Alignment or Stat. Because if you're drawing randomly odds are you probably won't match sooner or later.
Though I do think giving them a "Ace up the sleeve" ability could help offset the total randomness. Like X times a day they can search the deck and pull the Spirit they need. That way you aren't constantly at the whims of fortune, just mostly at their whims.
@The Forge—It starts with all martial, gaining free extra enhancements like a magus's arcane pool and exotic proficiencies.
OH GOD OH MAN! When can we expect a full transcript of The Forge so I can include it in an AP I wish to play a Medium in? :D
On that note, is there going to be a revised playtest document like with ACG last year?
I'll tell you what Lukas. For every N solid playtest sessions of medium play (party play through an adventure, not solo coliseum fights), where N is a number I haven't decided yet and may change from spirit to spirit, I will release an unpolished version of a new spirit for you guys (perhaps the Forge. Or the Sickness, for whom all his spells can become an epidemic, as victims infect more victims. Or Wanderer, who can use all skills untrained and gets double spirit bonus on untrained skills). Sound awesome?
In regards to the idea of a Medium who randomly draws their Spirits from a Harrow deck. I personally LOVE that idea! I think that it would work really well if you do a couple things though.
First they don't have Spirits Known. Instead the whole deck is fair game, but it's all random. So if you trance in a Spirit it's just another draw from the deck, hope it's the right one! And remove the restriction on matching Alignment or Stat. Because if you're drawing randomly odds are you probably won't match sooner or later.
Though I do think giving them a "Ace up the sleeve" ability could help offset the total randomness. Like X times a day they can search the deck and pull the Spirit they need. That way you aren't constantly at the whims of fortune, just mostly at their whims.
Yup, they would have no restriction on which spirits work with which others, just as you expected. This means that if the cards are hot for you, you can make certain combos that no other medium can!
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I'll tell you what Lukas. For every N solid playtest sessions of medium play (party play through an adventure, not solo coliseum fights), where N is a number I haven't decided yet and may change from spirit to spirit, I will release an unpolished version of a new spirit for you guys (perhaps the Forge. Or the Sickness, for whom all his spells can become an epidemic, as victims infect more victims. Or Wanderer, who can use all skills untrained and gets double spirit bonus on untrained skills). Sound awesome?
How conducive to my goals! Hopefully the first session of the RoW game I plan to use my Medium in occurs soon, so I can contribute.
Hi Everyone
This is my first playtest, and I am looking forward to being a part of the refinement process here. Huge kudos to Paizo for allowing the Pathfinder community to have a hand in the design process.
Obligatory brown-nosing aside, I haven't played the medium yet, but I've read through the whole entry a few times. I agree with the general consensus that the Medium needs a bit more oomph. Here are a few ideas I had. Some of the ideas here have been touched upon in previous posts, with a slightly different spin.
1. When you select a primary physical spirit (one that is Str, Dex or Con based), the Medium becomes a full BaB class. The Str spirit bonus would become +Dmg and +CMB instead of +Atk.
When you select a primary mental spirit (one that is Int, Wis or Cha based), the Medium becomes a 3/4 casting class (spell progression of a Magus, Bard ect), and these types of spirits grant more spells than they do now
2. The Medium becomes a 3/4 casting class, but physical spirits grant bonus feats, but not spells. Mental spirits would be the only ones that grant spells.
3. All spirits grant a choice of feats. The Medium can chose a limited number of these (maybe 3-4 by level 20).
This idea is one I had too and one that I like a lot! I would say this—gods are pretty complex beings. My conception is you could worship Sarenrae, say, and take all the NG spirits as different aspects of Sarenrae. Sarenrae's Mercy, Sarenrae's Wrath, etc.Mr. Mark Seifter,
Going off the core 20 gods, and maybe a few of the non core as you see fit, Which spirits match to which gods best if not perfectly?
I ask because I had the idea for a medium character who is basically a budding avatar of her gods. "My gods are always with" *Eyes start glowing*
I can dig it. I imagine there might some overlap with surrounding alignments maybe. Kind of like a NG god would have the NG spirits but a N or LG flavor wise might also match. With that in mind any possibility of a aide bar or maybe a web enhancement with a chart that lists the deities in one column and the matching spirits in another? Kind of like domains or inquisitions.
I'm also totally for you releasing additional spirits if the right conditions are met.
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I've tried to stay current on this thread and I'm loving what I'm reading so far. I'll be going out to work on some medium playtests so we can get a glimpse at some of these other spirits! Exciting!
Quick question though, if a medium loses control to a spirit, can that spirit use its own powers? I'm specifically wondering about The Rakshasa. With the All Are Slaves to the Rakshasa power, wouldn't that make it possible that The Rakshasa spirit could keep itself in the medium's body in perpetuity?
Not that I have a huge problem with that. You knowingly channeled one of the most evil spirits out there and you chose to use that power, but I just needed some clarification on the subject.
I've tried to stay current on this thread and I'm loving what I'm reading so far. I'll be going out to work on some medium playtests so we can get a glimpse at some of these other spirits! Exciting!
Quick question though, if a medium loses control to a spirit, can that spirit use its own powers? I'm specifically wondering about The Rakshasa. With the All Are Slaves to the Rakshasa power, wouldn't that make it possible that The Rakshasa spirit could keep itself in the medium's body in perpetuity?
Not that I have a huge problem with that. You knowingly channeled one of the most evil spirits out there and you chose to use that power, but I just needed some clarification on the subject.
If the Rakshasa did that, it, not you, would gain influence. It's never going to want to get influence from other spirits (it's too much of a control freak), but it doesn't mind its own influence. So the rest of the party might expect, if the spirit doesn't have the medium wander off, to see that spirit really laying down the mind control with All Are Slaves on every spell...too bad it will probably dominate them too!
So I'm thinking about making a Medium of Sarenrae... but taking a bunch of Neutral and Evil spirits, and fluffing it as pretty much being heavily effected by the people he's trying to redeem.
At the very least, I didn't see anything that would prevent this. :3
It's perfectly in flavor. Heck, you can have debates with these Astral entities and active try to use your example to redeem them. It's possible that your medium specializes in helping the spirits of femmes (or garcons) fatales find redemption and when you channel the Liar after you redeem one, you found a new spirit with a different but similar personality and worldview!
This idea is one I had too and one that I like a lot! I would say this—gods are pretty complex beings. My conception is you could worship Sarenrae, say, and take all the NG spirits as different aspects of Sarenrae. Sarenrae's Mercy, Sarenrae's Wrath, etc.Mr. Mark Seifter,
Going off the core 20 gods, and maybe a few of the non core as you see fit, Which spirits match to which gods best if not perfectly?
I ask because I had the idea for a medium character who is basically a budding avatar of her gods. "My gods are always with" *Eyes start glowing*
I can dig it. I imagine there might some overlap with surrounding alignments maybe. Kind of like a NG god would have the NG spirits but a N or LG flavor wise might also match. With that in mind any possibility of a aide bar or maybe a web enhancement with a chart that lists the deities in one column and the matching spirits in another? Kind of like domains or inquisitions.
I'm also totally for you releasing additional spirits if the right conditions are met.
I've done something quick for the Eldest. I wouldn't mind writing a blog post like you describe, or it could even be a section in the Occult version of Advanced Class Origins (if that book has the space for it anyway). Who knows? The Occult and the future bring exciting new possibilities to us every day!
Just to throw my two cents out....
I have no problem with the number of spirits..would rather not see them decreased, and would hope that others would be added over time.
Not a fan of the idea of increasing BA....I'm fine with pinch hitting as melee with a Medium...but would hate to loose flexibility by it becoming the expected party role.
I do think there should be a re-think in regards to the character becoming a GM run NPC....If the influence takes over the character, I would rather see the player retain control with the expectation that he play the character as it's current alignment and influence.
Love the idea of a "random draw" Harrow deck influenced Medium ;)
The Medium I have mostly finished reading (I only have so much time to read). I think it is missing something.
I was looking at it and asking myself, "Why doesn't each spirit have at least 1 skill associated with it?"
I mean, the class seems similar to a Bard in some ways, being apparently intended to be a "Jack of All Trades" class, but it has a pretty limited skill base. The spirits should have a skill bonus, say the player has a number of bonus skill points that can ONLY be assigned to the spirit skills of one of the spirits they are channeling.
Perhaps you might have a specific weapon proficiency in place of a skill for some of the Strength or Constitution spirits, since there are not many skills linked to those attributes.
Skills and knowledge are both actually big shticks of Intelligence. For instance, the Wanderer lets you be a super dabbler and do things like use Appraise to find the existential truth of that half-eaten donut (it turns out, the existential truth of that donut was to give you +19 to AC against that attack that was going to kill you by deflecting the arrow. Who knew?)
Strength is about finding a new way to beat down (indeed often providing proficiencies or new kinds of attacks like the Paladin's longsword and shield proficiency), Dex has more movement-based powers. Con is about survival, enduring, and defense (wait til you see Survivor's greater ability). Int often includes skills in its powers. Wisdom may include new ways to see things and perceptual-based powers. Charisma generally provide a major paradigm change that grants a significant shift to how you play your medium.
Of course, they don't all follow that exactly, and with three of each ability score, that trend may not be as clear as it will be with 9.
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I have to say, upon building one, (admittedly, through level 5) I don't think the Medium needs full BAB if it is running a STR spirit.
What it does need, however, is more abilities early on (more uses of trance?) and more/better lesser spirit powers. A few do virtually nothing unless you have spells and a very high amount of them are really only useful as trances (Who wants their one lesser spirit power for the day at levels 1-4 to add to confusion percentile or spot hidden doors?) So really, this leaves 3-5 spirits as viable primaries that early and most of them have largely passive effects like the Bear's Claws or the Beating's Beater.
Additionally, a good fort save would be nice, for the reasons already mentioned thus far.