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I find it curious that people here lament the fact that caster or caster types so far outpace martials, and then they also lament that this class isn't better at ranged attacking than martials.
It's almost as quixotic as people complaining that martials can shut down psychic casters with a Demoralize action.
Not to say there are no problems with this class. There are problems with any class that anyone designs. Designers are only human. But it's still curious.
1- Effectively, a Kineticist is no more of a caster than a Ninja or Monk is. They are basically martials with a some supernatural powers sprinkled over it. They don't have the plethora of options a true caster has, in or out of combat.
In fact, Kineticists are pretty close to what Ninjas are... Medium BAB class with poor accuracy, that has a few nice tricks but is overall quite underpowered... One can fly all day, the other can "cast" Greater Invisibility with a swift action... Both are still very limited in what they can do in combat... And Kineticists are also really bad out of combat too.
2- Balancing casters (or any other class, really) by making them easily neutralized to the point where they are incapable of doing anything is not a good idea. That's just boring and frustrating for the guy playing the caster. A much better idea s to make sure spells themselves are well designed and balanced.
And yet ninjas and monks use mental stats for there supernatural and spell like abilities.
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I find it curious that people here lament the fact that caster or caster types so far outpace martials, and then they also lament that this class isn't better at ranged attacking than martials.
It's almost as quixotic as people complaining that martials can shut down psychic casters with a Demoralize action.
Not to say there are no problems with this class. There are problems with any class that anyone designs. Designers are only human. But it's still curious.
But kineticists arent casters. A caster's job isnt to do damage. They CAN do damage, but thats not their job. That isnt their thing. They control the battlefield, buff allies, debuff the enemy, and overall do everything BUT damage.
Kineticists on the other hand dont do things. They are damage dealiers. Heck they dont even have the toughness/ac of most martial characters. All they have is damage and a few really minor tricks. So yes, if their abilities in other areas dont change dramatically, they SHOULD be the best ranged damage character. Thats all they have. Even an archer fighter has a bunch of feats to invest in switch hitting and will have a good AC. And if you look at more flexible archer classes, like the ranger, who has lots of outdoorsey skills, specialized abilities to help them do more then shoot things and 4 levels of genuine spells, the kineticist comes up woefully short. By that same measure, the archer paladin can heal, also has 4 levels of spells, great defensive abilities, ac and hit points, AND can lay the hurt from a far better then the kineticist.
When even full martial characters are more flexible in their abilities then a non-martial character. Something is very, very wrong.
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I find it curious that people here lament the fact that caster or caster types so far outpace martials, and then they also lament that this class isn't better at ranged attacking than martials.
It's almost as quixotic as people complaining that martials can shut down psychic casters with a Demoralize action.
Not to say there are no problems with this class. There are problems with any class that anyone designs. Designers are only human. But it's still curious.
1- Effectively, a Kineticist is no more of a caster than a Ninja or Monk is. They are basically martials with a some supernatural powers sprinkled over it. They don't have the plethora of options a true caster has, in or out of combat.
In fact, Kineticists are pretty close to what Ninjas are... Medium BAB class with poor accuracy, that has a few nice tricks but is overall quite underpowered... One can fly all day, the other can "cast" Greater Invisibility with a swift action... Both are still very limited in what they can do in combat... And Kineticists are also really bad out of combat too.
The kineticist is actually inferior to the ninja. The ninja fills out the skilled person role as well as anyone, the kineticist is about as good at fighting as the ninja, has about the same amount of 'tricks', and doesnt have the skills.
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Yes, I think there is a strong consensus that kineticists need more damage, skills, and access to utility powers.
There's a split between people that feel burn/accuracy are ok and those you hate the idea of burn and think accuracy is unusably bad.
But nobody, near as I can tell, thinks the class is totally ok as is.
The kineticist is actually inferior to the ninja. The ninja fills out the skilled person role as well as anyone, the kineticist is about as good at fighting as the ninja, has about the same amount of 'tricks', and doesn't have the skills.
There was a Ninja in my playtest game... He had better to-hit and AC (due to focusing on Dex, rather than Con), but lower saves and hp (except when I tried to use Metakinesis).
EDIT: My mistake... The Ninja's AC was slightly lower.
I tried using Air Blasts (non-touch), but they are very unlikely to hit, so I was forced to use Lightning Blast... Which was a problem whenever we faced anything with energy resistance/immunity or SR (which is pretty common, but I can't comment on the difficulty of overcoming it, since I rolled at least a 14 on all my rolls against SR... However, having to roll as often as I did gave me the impression that it'd have been a serious problem if I hadn't been so lucky).
One of the more difficult battles was a Red Dragon, which I asked the GM to replace with an equivalent Blue Dragon. The Kineticist was completely useless in that fight...
Even with Int 13, my one and only out-of-combat utility was rolling Perception checks... I'd have used Stealth to scout ahead, but literally every other character in the party (even the Sorcerer) was far better at it.
From what I've seen, at least, mechanically speaking, the Kineticist is basically a 6-level dip class for players who really want that at-will flight.
The kineticist is actually inferior to the ninja. The ninja fills out the skilled person role as well as anyone, the kineticist is about as good at fighting as the ninja, has about the same amount of 'tricks', and doesn't have the skills.There was a Ninja in my playtest game... He had better to-hit and AC (due to focusing on Dex, rather than Con), but lower saves and hp (except when I tried to use Metakinesis).
I tried using Air Blasts (non-touch), but they are very unlikely to hit, so I was forced to use Lightning Blast... Which was a problem whenever we faced anything with energy resistance/immunity or SR (which is pretty common, but I can't comment on the difficulty of overcoming it, since I rolled at least a 14 on all my rolls against SR).
One of the more difficult battles was a Red Dragon, which I asked the GM to replace with an equivalent Blue Dragon. The Kineticist was completely useless in that fight...
Even with Int 13, my one and only out-of-combat utility was rolling Perception checks... I'd have used Stealth t scout ahead, but literally every other character in the party (even the Sorcerer) was far better at it.
From what I've seen, at least, mechanically speaking, the Kineticist is basically a 6-level dip class for players who really want that at-will flight.
I think it would be useful to see your build (and potentially the ninja, but just yours would be immensely helpful). For one, I don't really understand why you put Con above Dex if you were concerned with accuracy and AC. I would personally push for both to stay equal, it possible, with dex getting a slight edge. I feel like you still wouldn't outdo a well played martial since kineticist damage is acknowledged to be weak, but surely you could do better than you did.
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I think it would be useful to see your build (and potentially the ninja, but just yours would be immensely helpful). For one, I don't really understand why you put Con above Dex if you were concerned with accuracy and AC. I would personally push for both to stay equal, it possible, with dex getting a slight edge. I feel like you still wouldn't outdo a well played martial since kineticist damage is acknowledged to be weak, but surely you could do better than you did.
You can see my Aero-Kineticist playtest here (or here, actually, in this very thread).
(Might include references to Hunter class features because I used it as a template to for my character in HeroLab, since they have the same HD, BAB and saves progression)
I think I might still have the Ninja's build in my PC... I'll check.
EDIT: Couldn't find the Ninja's character sheet. I think it was deleted after I sent it to my friend. (He focused on melee combat, though, but even so, his backup +1 Shortbow had the same to-hit as my Air Blast) :(
EDIT 2: BTW, the reason I pushed for Con was because I wanted to use Burn... Even with Con 22, Toughness and FCB, I still lost 30hp for using Feel The Burn, giving me the same hp as a Cleric or Rogue. AC was not a problem due to my buckler. Focusing on Dex would at best make my to-hit bonus match the Ninja's. That's not exactly impressive...
If Bards lost a quarter of their health whenever they used Bardic Performance, I'd focus Con for all my Bard builds too.
So, first, I would have equalized dex and con. I would have taken kinetic form before spark of life. For 2 burn (that you want to take anyway to self buff--in fact, put a 3rd into you airshield thing to get the full +3 from feel the burn) you get 60 perfect flight, slams (so you don't need that expensive gauntlet for AoOs), 3 Natural Armor, and 4 Dex ALL DAY. You basically become an elemental permanently at 10th here.
Then, you wouldn't need either of those flight related infusions and you could have grabbed more utility.
You didn't take improved crit, either, and that would add good dpr. Or, with Kinetic Whip focus, Vital Strike is actually pretty nasty.
I can look more in depth later, but I feel like you coupd have dropped some stuff (the weapon for sure, maybe a plus or two from armor) and gotten the +4 belt instead if just +2. But items are my weakest area of optimization.
As for general strategy, until the boss fight, I would never use any metakinesis other than empower and only that when I have a move action to spare to avoid the burn.
If you do all that, your air blasts should have rather respectable hit and damage. It's hard to do the exact calculation on a phone, though. You'd still want more damage, though, that's for sure.
Edit: Focusing on the burn was the problem. You want to burn exactly your feel the burn amount in the morning and then never burn again until the boss fight (and even then, only maybe).
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So, first, I would have equalized dex and con. I would have taken kinetic form before spark of life. For 2 burn (that you want to take anyway to self buff--in fact, put a 3rd into you airshield thing to get the full +3 from feel the burn) you get 60 perfect flight, slams (so you don't need that expensive gauntlet for AoOs), 3 Natural Armor, and 4 Dex ALL DAY. You basically become an elemental permanently at 10th here.
I bought the cestus because I had some gold left after buying all my stuff... I didn't take the place of anything else.
Then, you wouldn't need either of those flight related infusions and you could have grabbed more utility.
Didn't like the flavor of Kinetic Form... If it's required to make the character effective, then it should be added to the class' base features, rather than requiring a Wild Talent tax.
You didn't take improved crit, either, and that would add good dpr.
Improved Critical requires BAB +8. Kineticists can't take it before 11th level.
Or, with Kinetic Whip focus, Vital Strike is actually pretty nasty.
I wanted a ranged character. If I have to go for melee to be effective with a class whose main focus is attacking with blasts, that class is severely flawed. I only took Kinetic Blade because there wasn't anything interesting left to take.
(And even, then... Kinetic Blade costs burns and is still limited to the accuracy of a Rogue).
EDIT: Claudius' build should list Kinetic Blade, not Whip... Made a mistake when rewriting his character sheet to post it here. (In the hand-written sheet used during the actual playtest game, it's Kinetic Blade).
I can look more in depth later, but I feel like you coupd have dropped some stuff (the weapon for sure, maybe a plus or two from armor) and gotten the +4 belt instead if just +2. But items are my weakest area of optimization.
A belt of +4 Dex/Con costs 40,000gp. I can't afford that at 10th level. I didn't want to use custom items. And I couldn't afford to lose the Con bonus. Burns is too damaging.
As for general strategy, until the boss fight, I would never use any metakinesis other than empower and only that when I have a move action to spare to avoid the burn.
i.e.: Never use my defining class feature... Great... -.-'
I used Metakinesis only when I could spare the move action, and only to check if it could be used effectively. From what I've seen, it can't (Well... "Can't" is hyperbole, but it's too taxing to use. Using anything other than Empower cripples the character).
The Kineticist must either be willing lo lose a sizable chunk of his health (and be unable to heal it) or never use its own class features. That's a poor design option. No offense to Mark, but IMHO, he grossly underestimated the cost of Burn.
If you do all that, your air blasts should have rather respectable hit and damage. It's hard to do the exact calculation on a phone, though. You'd still want more damage, though, that's for sure.
If by respectable you mean "The same as a Rogue", then I suppose you're correct.
I still don't see how the Kineticist has any significant advantage over the Rogue/Ninja when it comes to accuracy/damage. The damage is basically the same, and the accuracy is exactly the same.
Hell! Rogues and Ninjas can even get access to arcane SLA's and then grab arcane strike for another bonus to damage!
@Shiroi: A kineticst doesn't get a 2nd iterative attack until 8th level (barring haste). By 5th level, by taking infusion specialization (form), he can use kinetic blade without taking any burn. By 8th level, he can take infusion specialization (form) again, and has his second iterative attack and can even use kinetic whip without taking any burn. I'm pretty sure anyone who intends to regularly use kinetic blade/whip (or fist) will be ensuring he doesn't take burn every round by selecting the appropriate infusion specialization. And since prior to 5th level, iterative attacks aren't likely to be a thing (barring potions of haste or a summoner or somesuch), there's nothing stopping them from taking their move action to lower burn.Sorry, edited in a few things in my above post. Do please reread for clarification, I feel it now addresses these concerns.
You are missing Vital Strike. I would rather empower a vital strike in melee than make some low accuracy iteratives.
Hmm... does the extra damage from Empower get multiplied in a Vital Strike?
Hmm... does the extra damage from Empower get multiplied in a Vital Strike?Just off the examination of vital strike, and the face that you called the empower "extra damage" I'd say no. But that's just me, and it also depends on what order you activate the abilities in. If you vital strike first, does the Empower add to the vital strike damage?
In this case, because you empower the SLA and then make the attack which you choose to use Vital Strike on, I don't think that's a viable wording option, but it may be a workaround with other abilities. In this case, I don't think Empower would apply to Vital Strike.
Okay, let's look at the actual wording.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Here is the issue, Empower increases the base damage of the spell, while Vital Strike allows you to roll the base damage multiple times. I think, by RAW, you can vital strike an empowered Kinetic Blade/Fist/Whip.
The reason it would work, per RAW, is that the damage of the spell is increased by half, instead of gaining bonus damage equal to half the base damage.
Didn't like the flavor of Kinetic Form... If it's required to make the character effective, then it should be added to the class' base features, rather than requiring a Wild Talent tax.
While I agree that it is a tax and shouldn't be, I can also easily see a ninja who didn't like the flavor of turning invisible or a barbarian that didn't like the flavor of pouncing being in similar positions. It's just unquestionably the best power you can take at 10th.
For what it's worth, I don't like the flavor if I am forced to be an amorphous blob of wind/water/whatever, but I intend to just look like my normal self when I describe it for my water bender.
Improved Critical requires BAB +8. Kineticists can't take it before 11th level.
Yes, my mistake. My own mid level tests were at 11th, and I got mixed up about the order I took the feats.
I wanted a ranged character. If I have to go for melee to be effective with a class whose main focus is attacking with blasts, that class is severely flawed. I only took Kinetic Blade because there wasn't anything interesting left to take.
(And even, then... Kinetic Blade costs burns and is still limited to the accuracy of a Rogue).
I agree that I hate that kinetic whip is the strongest way to play right now. I also want a ranged character. Or at least a switch hitter, not a pure melee character that only blasts at range to close distance.
But, a few things:
First, form specialization removes kinetic blade's burn, so it only costs burn if you take it too early.
Second, you could have taken Pressurized Blast (which does suck, but it's better than a power you don't want to use at all) or Air's Reach (which is pretty awesome).
A belt of +4 Dex/Con costs 40,000gp. I can't afford that at 10th level. I didn't want to use custom items. And I couldn't afford to lose the Con bonus. Burns is too damaging.
Yeah, as I said, not great with items and my tests were at 11th when it's more affordable.
But I really have to stress here: burn is not something you're supposed to take beyond your FtB limit. Stop thinking of it as damaging you and just think of yourself as having less HP.
And it's not like a Monk with a penalty to Will to compensate for theie extra Wis. You still get full Fort bonuses. It's far closer to a class that loses one very specific benefit of a stat in order to buff another aspect of their character.
Imagine a class that could trade some of the bonus their Intelligence adds to knowledge checks for more hit and damage. Or a class that could reduce your carrying capacity to buff AC. Over the course of 20 levels, you will likely get +12 Con (+6 enhancement, 5 inherent, and one or two of the leveling bumps) which perfectly balances the amount of burn you need for FtB. You trade HP for Hit/Damage. Most people would call that a good trade.
i.e.: Never use my defining class feature... Great...
I think we obviously have different ideas about what is class defining. Don't take more burn than FtB. Extra Burn is bad. Use specializations and move actions to avoid burn. Only blow your load when you know it's the end.
I used Metakinesis only when I could spare the move action, and only to check if it could be used effectively. From what I've seen, it can't (Well... "Can't" is hyperbole, but it's too taxing to use. Using anything other than Empower cripples the character).
I agree. It's bad to use any other than Empower. But you should empower almost every turn. I would use the others for a boss fight, though. A maxed composite blast is nasty.
The Kineticist must either be willing lo lose a sizable chunk of his health (and be unable to heal it) or never use its own class features. That's a poor design option. No offense to Mark, but IMHO, he grossly underestimated the cost of Burn.
I disagree and think it is an issue of perspective. It's not me losing health, it's me just not having FtB's bonus x my level in health to begin with. Then, I can blow my daily wad on the big boss or whatever and pass out wrecking his face. You don't like burn, but it's not objectively bad. It works, you just have to play a certain way around it.
If by respectable you mean "The same as a Rogue", then I suppose you're correct.
Rogues have respectable damage, they just lack accuracy when they take penalties (dual wielding, power attack, etc) and expect to hit with iteratives. Without any extra penalties, a rogue's first attack is fine. With a +6 attack stat, a +3 weapon, and weapon focus, rogues have a +17 to hit at 10th. A CR 10 enemy is expected to have a 24 AC, so, even if your party is selfish (or just composed to include zero buffers), you hit on a 7, which is a 70% hit rate. Is that really a problem? No, the issue is that a dual wielder rogue hits 60/60/35/35% of the time, which is horrid.
If you had done what I suggested with the 20 base dex and kinetic form, you would have had a 7 (bab) + 7 (dex) + 3 (ftb) + 1 (weapon focus) + 2 (items) = +20, which hits the CR 13 blue dragon on an 8. 65% hit rate against a boss specifically chisen to limit your abilities with no allies buffing you is pretty damn good.
I still don't see how the Kineticist has any significant advantage over the Rogue/Ninja when it comes to accuracy/damage. The damage is basically the same, and the accuracy is exactly the same.
The accuracy advantage is not needing to hit with anything other than their first, highest, unpenalized attack roll. They have no damage advantage (their damage is probably weaker) and that's exactly why they need a buff.
Damage is needed. Kinetic Whip needs to change or it needs to be granted to ranged builds, too. They need more skills and more utility wild talents (maybe just one each level instead of every other). They don't need accuracy from what I have seen.
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I agree that I hate that kinetic whip is the strongest way to play right now. I also want a ranged character. Or at least a switch hitter, not a pure melee character that only blasts at range to close distance.
But, a few things:
First, form specialization removes kinetic blade's burn, so it only costs burn if you take it too early.Second, you could have taken Pressurized Blast (which does suck, but it's better than a power you don't want to use at all) or Air's Reach (which is pretty awesome).
Meh... If I won't use it anyway, it doesn't matter what I take... Kinetic Blade was there if I ever felt like playing melee during the playtest... I didn't.
(BTW, I didn't take Air's Reach, but I got Extended Range... Which does basically the same thing).
I think we obviously have different ideas about what is class defining. Don't take more burn than FtB. Extra Burn is bad. Use specializations and move actions to avoid burn. Only blow your load when you know it's the end.
Not Metakinesis... But Burn. Burn is a class-defining feature. And yet, Kineticists spend their whole carriers trying to avoid using it. Or limiting themselves to the class features they had at low levels...
Imagine if the Fighters lost a quarter of their health whenever they used a feat with a requirement of BAB +6. Or if Barbarians lost that a bunch of hp every time they used Rage Powers with prerequisite of Barbarian level 6...
Why is the Kineticist limited to either not using his class features, using only the most basic ones, or losing great amounts of hp for using level-appropriate abilities twice a day?
Keep in mind that FtB took almost 25% of the hp of my [Con 22 + Touchness + FCB] character... How much would it take if I had focused on Dex? Or if I were not a Dwarf? Or if wanted an extra skill point to compensate for my pathetic skills? Or if I used 15pt buy instead of 20?
I pointed this out before, but here it goes again: If a character relies on a power that causes them harm, then they somehow learn a skill to reduce/avoid that harm, they would logically do their best to master that skill... Yet, for some reasons, Kineticis never get better at reducing Burn damage with their Move actions... It only reduces Burn by -1, no matter if the Kineticist it as 5th level or 20th.
I disagree and think it is an issue of perspective. It's not me losing health, it's me just not having FtB's bonus x my level in health to begin with.
That's exactly the same thing, because you do have that health. You lose if if you choose to use your class features... But you have the "option" of no doing it and keeping your health. My character invested a feat and his FCB in increasing hp... And yet, my hp is the same as the Cleric who took the additional skill points.
That's like giving Fighters a penalty to attack/damage to "balance" Weapon Training and then saying "Well, you see... It's not that I lost accuracy, I just didn't have it in the first place"
Then, I can blow my daily wad on the big boss or whatever and pass out wrecking his face. You don't like burn, but it's not objectively bad. It works, you just have to play a certain way around it.
But then you're fighting an uphill battle against your own class features... They penalize your character so heavily, that you completely avoid using them except when you have no alternative or when the day is about to end...
Being penalized for using your own class features is bad design. Specially when they are not even very good to start with. And if they are meant to only be used once per day, then jsut make it a once per day ability.
Rogues have respectable damage, they just lack accuracy when they take penalties (dual wielding, power attack, etc) and expect to hit with iteratives.
They have mediocre accuracy when they do all they can to boost their to-hit... And even then, if the enemy has slightly higher AC, they'll struggle. And this issue grows larger and larger as the levels go up.
Kineticists suffer from the same problem.
If you had done what I suggested with the 20 base dex and kinetic form, you would have had a 7 (bab) + 7 (dex) + 3 (ftb) + 1 (weapon focus) + 2 (items) = +20, which hits the CR 13 blue dragon on an 8. 65% hit rate against a boss specifically chosen to limit your abilities with no allies buffing you is pretty damn good.
True... And I'd have 20~30 less hp. So Burn would became even less of an option. Feel The Burn would have left me with the hp of a 8th level Rogue. :/
If players are afraid to use their own class features, something is very wrong with the class' design.
The accuracy advantage is not needing to hit with anything other than their first, highest, unpenalized attack roll.
Rogues can do it just as well. A Rogue or Ninja with the Scout archetype (or Vanishing Trick) talent can very well spend a move (or swift) action to ensure their next attack is a Sneak Attack.
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Let me try to put this more clearly... It feels like every single one of the Kineticists class feature is designed to either be underpowered or have a catch. It's almost as if players were expected to pay for the privilege of playing a Kineticist...
Building the character, and even worse, playing the character, feels like walking on a minefield.
I have nothing but respect for Mark, but if the playtest document could talk, that's how I see a conversation going between it and an would-be Kineticist player.
(Forgive me for the tongue-in-cheek tone)
Book: You can use fireball at will!
Player: Cool!
Book: But with only half the damage... And only one target at a time. And only from 30ft away...
Player: Oh...
Book: You can still blast all day long!
Player: Cool!
Book: But with the accuracy of a Rogue with no magic weapon...
Player: Oh...
Book: You can increase your accuracy!
Player: Cool!
Book: But you have to suffer incurable damage and even then, you will only be on par with Rogues...
Player: Oh...
Book: You can use metamagic-like powers on your blasts!
Player: Cool!
Book: Buy they will burn about half your hp... In addition to whatever you already used to boost your accuracy...
Player: Oh...
Book: You can reduce the hp cost!
Player: Cool!
Book: But only by -1... Even though many abilities cost 2 or more Burn. Including the one that you need to use to hit as well as a Rogue. And you never get better at it. In fact, the very same ability will cost you more hp at 10th level than it costed at 1st level...
Player: Oh...
Book: You're a SAD class! So you can invest in any attribute you want!
Player: Cool!
Book: But you really need high Con, high Dex and decent Wis... So don't expect to have high Int or Cha...
Player: Oh...
Book: You have lots of at-will powers! So have fun out-of-combat!
Player: Cool!
Book: But you only have 2 skill points per level and the shortest list of class skills in the game, so don't expect to contribute much... Or at all, really...
Player: Oh...
That's a lot of "You can... But...".
This class is flavorful and has some great ideas in it, but its mechanics are frustrating!
Burn in particular, feels like it's trying to work against you, as if it wanted to punish the player for playing a Kineticist!
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Currently, there is no negative effect from a class feature, that cannot be bypassed, with enough investment.
Why is this class, the one that straight up absolutely, no matter how hard you try, or how much you invest, is not allowed to negate the drawback?
Even an Oracle's Curse does it, all by it's self.
Actually I think it has LESS accuracy than a Rogue.
The Rogue can have a +3 weapon and a high Str or Dex, without having to invest in a high Con as well. Remember, the Rogue has the same HP as you with like Con 14-16 as you have with Con 22...that's a whole lot of Con investment you flushed down the toilet to use Feel the Burn.
So on the whole you're probably 2-4 to-hit BELOW THE ROGUE. That's before Flanking (which you can't use with ranged blasts) so...yeah. That's the saddest thing in the world.
Currently, there is no negative effect from a class feature, that cannot be bypassed, with enough investment.
Why is this class, the one that straight up absolutely, no matter how hard you try, or how much you invest, is allowed to negate the drawback?
Even an Oracle's Curse does it, all by it's self.
I think you meant "not allowed".
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The accuracy problem is only a problem if the damage doesn't justify the hit/miss ratio. If I'm only going to be able to hit about 70-80% of the time (which looks to be about where the attack bonuses land vs level-appropriate enemies up through at least the lower double-digit levels), then the amount of damage done with those attacks needs to justify that accuracy on a DPR level. If a 10th level archer is doing, say, 60-80 DPR against an equal CR enemy, then the kineticist needs to be doing something similar using a full-round action (so that needs to be achievable via 1 point of burn, which can be reduced to 0 if the kineticist doesn't move). Right now, Empowered composite blasts do about the right amount of damage, but cost three burn, which can only be reduced down to 2. If they were usable at will, the kineticist damage problem, at least through those levels, would basically be addressed.
I'm considering house ruling the kineticist so that the hp damage from burn can be healed, but only down to 'half'. Little bit extra book keeping, but lessens the ouch factor. Blow 20 hp on burn? heal 10 of it, keep 10. Burn another 40? heal 20, keep 20, have 30 total. Not for the playtest, mainly for home games.
Beyond that, I REALLY actually like the flavor of a kamikaze-kineticist drawing too much power from themselves to obliterate the big bad, and knock themselves out for a while. Very thematic with various forms of fiction.
Burn would be okay if it were not the primary way to boost your class features...
IMHO, at least one of the following things should happen:
- Kineticists get a resource pool, similar to a Monk's ki pool. When they run out of that resource, they can use Burn.
- Burn should boost powers to great new heights, instead of simply making sure they don't lag behind. Kineticists pay a very high price just to be mediocre.
- At very least, Kineticists should grow better at using move actions to reduce the cost of Burn. Maybe -2 at 7th level and -3 at 14th... Maybe become able to use it as a swift action as well... It just makes sense (Why wouldn't Kineticists try to improve such a critical ability?)! And that would also make Metakinesis actually useful without being suicidal.
They should do at least one more rendition of the playtest before closing it, just to test and see if any other details would need editing.
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Building an entire system of class features around the idea of negating negatives you shouldn't be taking in the first place is like building a skyscraper on sand. The class has flavor and style, which I love, but the mechanics make the investment and exercise in futility.
Hargert is right, this class is the only translation class significantly worse than its 3.5 counterpart, the Warlock, which was a mediocre class to start with. No at will powers, the damage from their blast is VERY specific and easy to completely ignore and the powers that they have written are nifty tricks more than combat maneuvers.
You want me to invest countless levels just to be able to hurt myself MORE so I can be useful, but even still never even close to an archer, an Inquisitor (which I find to be weak)or even a rogue.
Ok, why am I playing this class again?
Still going eh?
I think they may have got the point ;)
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Still going eh?
I think they may have got the point ;)
If that was true, I'd be sitting here with the second test document. ;)
Well it's true we'll get no reaction today since the office is closed.
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(BTW, I didn't take Air's Reach, but I got Extended Range... Which does basically the same thing).
But they stack.
Not Metakinesis... But Burn. Burn is a class-defining feature. And yet, Kineticists spend their whole carriers trying to avoid using it. Or limiting themselves to the class features they had at low levels...
Because Burn isn't a feature. That's like saying a Swashbuckler's core feature is running out of Panache. Yes, you want to spend a little Panache, but you mostly want to just sit on it.
Actually, having Burn recover from certain activities (like killing blows or taking damage from your element or something) might not be a bad idea.
Imagine if the Fighters lost a quarter of their health whenever they used a feat with a requirement of BAB +6. Or if Barbarians lost that a bunch of hp every time they used Rage Powers with prerequisite of Barbarian level 6...
No, it's much more like Barbarians having a couple double-power attacks that could only be used once per day and they have to spend HP to use them.
All the form and substance infusions can (and are supposed to) have their Burn costs reduced to 0 with specializations. The only things that can't are:
1) Metakinesis other than Empower (and Maximize at 19th)
2) Composite Blasts (until 15th)
3) Kinetic Healing (which, duh, infinite healing would be bad)
4) All day buffs (for your defense and kinetic forms)
5) Increasing the duration of various at-will SLAs from "as long as you spend actions on it" to "normal spell duration"
#3, I think this is a reasonable cost for a good ability. #4 is what you're supposed to spend your burn on to get Feel the Burn's buff. #1, 2, and 5 are, admittedly bad ideas unless it's an emergency or the final encounter for the day.
The game could do better to point out "Hey, these are REALLY costly and you shouldn't do them unless the chips are really down," but I mean, I thought that was pretty obvious. Burn is nasty stuff. You are only supposed to have a certain amount of it.
Why is the Kineticist limited to either not using his class features, using only the most basic ones, or losing great amounts of hp for using level-appropriate abilities twice a day?
The problem is not that they have features they can't use freely, the problem is that their "basic abilities" which are supposed to scale correctly don't. If the blast scaled better, you would be using that, Burn free, 90% of the time. Then, when the time came, you unleash your big guns.
It's not a huge amount different from a Wizard with their highest level spells. The only issue is that the Wizard's second and third (and often fourth) highest level spells are better than the Kineticists all the time options. If you buff the base, the costs to boost those bases make sense.
Keep in mind that FtB took almost 25% of the hp of my [Con 22 + Touchness + FCB] character... How much would it take if I had focused on Dex? Or if I were not a Dwarf? Or if wanted an extra skill point to compensate for my pathetic skills? Or if I used 15pt buy instead of 20?
Uh, average HP for a d8 is 5, then 5 Con, 1 toughness, 1 FCB...that should be 12 HP per level. Using 3 Burn takes you to 9 per level. That's way more than most d8 HD characters have. That's more than most d10 HD characters have, in my experience.
I pointed this out before, but here it goes again: If a character relies on a power that causes them harm, then they somehow learn a skill to reduce/avoid that harm, they would logically do their best to master that skill... Yet, for some reasons, Kineticis never get better at reducing Burn damage with their Move actions... It only reduces Burn by -1, no matter if the Kineticist it as 5th level or 20th.
That's actually a really good point, and might be a really good additional way to up the Kineticist's power. With some higher base damage, raising the amount of burn you can ignore with a move action might be just what the doctor ordered. If you could maximize for free around, maybe 12th, and maybe free Quicken at 19th...
That's exactly the same thing, because you do have that health. You lose if if you choose to use your class features... But you have the "option" of no doing it and keeping your health. My character invested a feat and his FCB in increasing hp... And yet, my hp is the same as the Cleric who took the additional skill points.
Yes, Kineticists need more Skill Points.
That's like giving Fighters a penalty to attack/damage to "balance" Weapon Training and then saying "Well, you see... It's not that I lost accuracy, I just didn't have it in the first place"
That's...not at all close. It'd be more like if Fighters could trade some of the skill bonus their Intelligence adds to knowledge skills for more hit/damage.
But then you're fighting an uphill battle against your own class features... They penalize your character so heavily, that you completely avoid using them except when you have no alternative or when the day is about to end...
Being penalized for using your own class features is bad design. Specially when they are not even very good to start with. And if they are meant to only be used once per day, then jsut make it a once per day ability.
I find per day abilities straight up like that to be boring and psychologically more limiting. This is a different take on it. You actually CAN use it more than 1/day if you have to, you just SHOULDN'T because it's so costly.
The psychological point is actually an important one for me. If I have an ability I can use 1/day, I doubt I'll EVER use it unless I'll unquestionably die if I don't, because I'll keep worrying that I might need it more later. I've never finished a day as a spellcaster with no slots left. I don't use consumables, either, for the same reason--what if I need it more later?
With Burn, I have a psuedo 1/day ability. The game is balanced against me using it one per day (or will be when the numbers are fixed right), but I'm not ACTUALLY limited, so, I will feel more free to use it, because I really can use it again (at high cost) if I wanted to.
They have mediocre accuracy when they do all they can to boost their to-hit... And even then, if the enemy has slightly higher AC, they'll struggle. And this issue grows larger and larger as the levels go up.
I just don't understand how accurate you expect people to be. What hit % would make you happy against equal CR opponents? I don't understand. You could have had an unbuffed 65% hit rate against a CR+3 foe specifically balanced up (Dragons are typically tougher for their CR than others) that had exactly the immunity to screw your options over. What more do you want?
True... And I'd have 20~30 less hp. So Burn would became even less of an option. Feel The Burn would have left me with the hp of a 8th level Rogue. :/
No, it'd leave you with 9 HP per level, which is much better than most d8 classes get. What d8 classes are really putting an 18 in Con here? Are d10 classes really even putting 16s there? I've rarely seen Con above 14 (though I've rarely seen it below that, either). Only really Barbarians and Scarred Witch Doctors can afford more.
If players are afraid to use their own class features, something is very wrong with the class' design.
Then, to me, there's something wrong with any class that has a nonrenewable per day power. I hate using finite resources. Burn is finite, but it doesn't feel the same.
Rogues can do it just as well. A Rogue or Ninja with the Scout archetype (or Vanishing Trick) talent can very well spend a move (or swift) action to ensure their next attack is a Sneak Attack.
Yes, this is why Kineticist needs a DAMAGE buff. Rogues are supposed to need to hit with multiple swings to compete (which is an issue), whereas Kineticists are supposed to only need 1 hit. So, the Kineticist needs to be dealing more damage than a rogue per hit. Damage is the issue, not accuracy.
mplindustries, I think the disconnect is that you're assuming that you are only using one single set of abilities and using every single one that boosts accuracy. You HAVE to max burn and HAVE to kinetic form and you HAVE to weapon focus and you HAVE to lose 30 hp and HAVE to have bracers of falcon's aim, ect. You're just fine if you use one single cookie cutter character.
Lemmy and I would rather play the character the way we want but because we stray off the one true way, accuracy sucks. There shouldn't be only one effective way to play a character.
mlpindustries... Our back-and-forth conversation, while engaging, is creating increasingly longer posts... So I'll just stop the quotes here before we have to scroll down 4 screens just to read our replies...
(BTW, dragons are no longer the under-CRed bastards they were in 3.5. Some of them are actually somewhat weak for their CR).
But you did convince me that Kineticists need a buff to damage... In addition to a buff to accuracy (and Weapon Focus is a really boring feat).
And I still see Burn as a really bad mechanic. Too costly and too harmful for its rather weak benefits. FtB itself is basically paying a heavy tax just to be mediocre (at best), while every other class uses their class features to excel with no cost to themselves. They might run out of uses of a certain feature, but they don't actively cripple themselves for using them (Well... The Barbarian is fatigued after using rages, but only for a few rounds. He doesn't lose the benefits from his Full BAB, d12 HD or ability to focus almost solely on Str and Con).
I get Toughness, FCB gone to hp and Con 22... And at 10th level, after using FtB, I got the same amount of hp as a guy with Con 20 who didn't use a feat or FCB. Therefore, my class feature is denying me the ability to benefit from my investment just so I can have (at best) mediocre accuracy.
And that's only talking about FtB... Use Burn again and you're likely to have even less hp than other d8 classes.
If I'm going to burn half my health on a boost, it should make me awesome! Not just on par with the weakest class in the game!
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The burn reminds me of the Hellfire Warlock PRC, but on thta case the damage was not "unhealable" it was "unpreventable" it dealt con damage wich was much more damage than hp damage, but the return was much more higher. The PRc basically could basically increase damage by 50% and trough shenaningans up to double damage. The returns of burns need to be significantly better and/or remove the unhealable part
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mplindustries, I think the disconnect is that you're assuming that you are only using one single set of abilities and using every single one that boosts accuracy. You HAVE to max burn and HAVE to kinetic form and you HAVE to weapon focus and you HAVE to lose 30 hp and HAVE to have bracers of falcon's aim, ect. You're just fine if you use one single cookie cutter character.
This is the way every single optimization guide works out.
If you want to build a "good" archer, you HAVE to have certain stats, you HAVE to follow a specific feat progression, you HAVE to invest in a good bow.
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Let's see... A Half-Elf 10th level Kineticist... Focusing on Dex rather than Con...
Human Kineticist 10
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 10 (+6 dexterity)
hp 113 (10d8+60) (assuming PFS progression... Actual average is 105hp)
Fort +15, Ref +17, Will +11
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged light crossbow +14 (1d8/19-20/×3)
Kineticist Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +14)
At will:
Air Blast +15 (5d6+9/20/x2)
Electricity Blast: +15 (5d6/20/x2)
with Feel The Burn (30hp; 26.55% of total hp):
Air Blast +18 (5d6+9/20/x2)
Electricity Blast: +18 (5d6/20/x2)
Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 22, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +5; CMD 24
Feats Defensive Combat Training, Iron Will, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Toughness, Weapon Focus (blast)
Skills Fly +19, Knowledge (planes) +11, Perception +18, Stealth +19
Average DPR vs AC 24: 27.5 (including Point-Blank shot)
That's 26% of my HP just to have mediocre accuracy... Let' say I want to use Metakinesis or a composite blast... There goes another 10 or 20hp (8.85% or 17.7%). So... use Burn twice and you now have 63 hp (A Rogue will have at least 83... And the same accuracy and damage).
You lost (at least) 44.25% of your health in exchange for a Rogue's accuracy and the audacity of using your class features twice in the same day... That's a high price for mediocrity...
For a quick comparison, a Hunter with a +3 Greatsword, Vital Strike, Power Attack and Furious Focus has a DPR of 28.80 with his standard action attack... And that's before counting on Animal Companion, Animal Focus, teamwork feats or spells...
A similarly built Warrior has a +20 to hit and average DPR of 41.6 (with just his standard action!). That's more than the Kinetict's DPR would be even if his blasts dealt [10d6+10+Con Modifier] damage! (His DPR would be 35.04, BTW).
Are Kineticists really expected to eal less damage than a Warrior? Does no one really see anything wrong with an obviously combat-focused class having to sacrifice hp just to reach the accuracy of an Expert?
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But that's to be OPTIMAL at a certain role. Which is fine. To be the best at something, obviously some options are better than others for a given role.
When you are forced into a cookie cutter build just to be PASSABLE, that's a problem.
The optimal Barbarian (Beast Totem Superstition Spell Sunder) is cookie cutter, but a Barbarian with a different build can still be passable (excellent, really). Sam with most other classes.
Ehhh...there's plenty of that from anime as well. Look at, say, Ryuuto Asamiya from Kenichi (injured himself using a technique, left crippled for a while), or Nagato from Naruto (using the Rinnegan slowly drained his life, leaving him frail and sickly).
mplindustries, I think the disconnect is that you're assuming that you are only using one single set of abilities and using every single one that boosts accuracy. You HAVE to max burn and HAVE to kinetic form and you HAVE to weapon focus and you HAVE to lose 30 hp and HAVE to have bracers of falcon's aim, ect. You're just fine if you use one single cookie cutter character.
Lemmy and I would rather play the character the way we want but because we stray off the one true way, accuracy sucks. There shouldn't be only one effective way to play a character.
I think you should be able to do whatever you want, but the game isn't balanced that way. You are going to be a lousy Barbarian if you, say, take three feats that give +2 to two skills and refuse to Pounce. You're going to be a lousy Wizard if you spend feats on shooting your crossbow better and then use all of your spell slots on unmetamagicked blasts. Ninjas who don't turn invisible are just as lousy as Rogues who didn't realize they could be ninjas instead.
Think about the poor Magus. If you're not using an 18-20/x2 crit weapon, think about how crappy your damage would be. If you don't take Arcane Accuracy, if you don't metamagic your Shocking Grasp/Frigid Touch correctly, if you waste your Arcana on Pool Strike...
So many things can go wrong. Many classes work like that. There are very few "you have to try to suck at this" classes (like Cleric, Druid, Summoner, probably Fighter, though they're not great in the end anyway).
I'm not a fan of the fact that classes are not equal, but, well, they're not. And I'm trying to be a realist here. If you harp on an issue the developers don't consider valid, they're not going to take your other legitimate points as seriously.
Mark has a valid reason for not raising accuracy--it only helps the physical blast since the touch blasts are already auto-hits. If you raise the damage, the DPR increases without unbalancing the physical/energy equation.
But you did convince me that Kineticists need a buff to damage... In addition to a buff to accuracy (and Weapon Focus is a really boring feat).
Ha. Ok, fair enough.
And I still see Burn as a really bad mechanic. Too costly and too harmful for its rather weak benefits. FtB itself is basically paying a heavy tax just to be mediocre (at best), while every other class uses their class features to excel with no cost to themselves.
Burn is not a class mechanic, it's a cost. The mechanic is "do this at-will but take this penalty until you get to the point when you can ignore the penalty."
But I can't make you like it. I don't want to, even. I just think your dislike of the mechanic is taste, not objectivity. I like it better than per day limits, which is also taste ;)
Also, in my example character, I hit DPR in the mid 40s at level 11 (without Kinetic Form or bracers of falcon's aim or that awesome +1 to hit ioun stone you found), so I'm not really sure how you're pulling mid 20s just one level lower.
And I'm still curious about what you think a good hit chance is for same CR enemies ;)
Con as the casting stat is cool. I like it, and if Feel the Burn is properly changed to a bonus rather than a necessity then it'll do great things for the class.
If you want to swap out a dependent stat, make it dexterity. Making intelligence or wisdom the to-hit and AC stat for the kineticist would be a great buff, making the class truly TAD and removing reliance on the expensive dual-stat belt while also alleviating the low skills/bad will save issues. I'd personally make the kineticist a 6+int skill class and give it wisdom to hit and AC.
As a sidenote, I agree with mplindustries and vastly prefer burn over strict per day limits. However... I think the Kineticist should be able to utilize her massive CON stat and get a ton of HP out of it. If burn is a nova option then it shouldn't be something you're forced to take just to keep up with the base line.
I don't know all the details of your build but I will say Improved Critical probably made a big difference on your end.
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But that's to be OPTIMAL at a certain role. Which is fine. To be the best at something, obviously some options are better than others for a given role.
When you are forced into a cookie cutter build just to be PASSABLE, that's a problem.
The optimal Barbarian (Beast Totem Superstition Spell Sunder) is cookie cutter, but a Barbarian with a different build can still be passable (excellent, really). Sam with most other classes.
Yep.
mplindustries, I think the disconnect is that you're assuming that you are only using one single set of abilities and using every single one that boosts accuracy. You HAVE to max burn and HAVE to kinetic form and you HAVE to weapon focus and you HAVE to lose 30 hp and HAVE to have bracers of falcon's aim, ect. You're just fine if you use one single cookie cutter character.
Lemmy and I would rather play the character the way we want but because we stray off the one true way, accuracy sucks. There shouldn't be only one effective way to play a character.
I think you should be able to do whatever you want, but the game isn't balanced that way. You are going to be a lousy Barbarian if you, say, take three feats that give +2 to two skills and refuse to Pounce. You're going to be a lousy Wizard if you spend feats on shooting your crossbow better and then use all of your spell slots on unmetamagicked blasts. Ninjas who don't turn invisible are just as lousy as Rogues who didn't realize they could be ninjas instead.
Think about the poor Magus. If you're not using an 18-20/x2 crit weapon, think about how crappy your damage would be. If you don't take Arcane Accuracy, if you don't metamagic your Shocking Grasp/Frigid Touch correctly, if you waste your Arcana on Pool Strike...
So many things can go wrong. Many classes work like that. There are very few "you have to try to suck at this" classes (like Cleric, Druid, Summoner, probably Fighter, though they're not great in the end anyway).
I'm not a fan of the fact that classes are not equal, but, well, they're not. And I'm trying to be a realist here. If you harp on an issue the developers don't consider valid, they're not going to take your other legitimate points as seriously.
Mark has a valid reason for not raising accuracy--it only helps the physical blast since the touch blasts are already auto-hits. If you raise the damage, the DPR increases without unbalancing the physical/energy equation....
You missed the point again. It's not about going out of your way to pick suboptimal choices. There isn't just ONE optimal way to build a barbarian, or a wizard. As you've pointed out, you NEED to cookie cutter yourself to get the to hit you have they you think is fine for the class. Without doing exactly what you've done, you fail to get an adequate to hit.
A barbarian that uses a one handed weapon and doesn't power attack is going to have good damage and to hit. He can do his job. He has options.
That magus isn't gimped by using a 19-20 weapon.
This is a class that you HAVE to do one exact build to not suck. It's NOT picking bad options that gimps you it's not picking EVERY SINGLE to hit option that gets you to ok...