Leaving expanded element as an option instead of mandatory is better IMO. It may be the best option from a power stand point but when we get more talents to choose from some players may want to take them instead at 7th and maybe not pick up expanded till later.
I look at it like Natural Spell for the Druid, yeah you probably should take it as soon as possible but if you really want to try something different have fun.What about an automatic Expanded Element, with the option to take a Wild Talent instead?
Like, Expanded Element at 6, 12, and 18, but you can choose to, instead, take an additional Wild Talent of your choice.
Taking expanded element or a wild talent would be what we have now anyway.
However, getting it earlier is a good idea, I suggested level 6 instead of 7 a couple pages ago.
Still holding out hope we get more early choices as it stands other than water they have to take universal powers just to fill out their choices for levels 1-4.
That's not what I meant.
Remove Expanded Element from the list of Wild Talents entirely, and turn it into a class feature. However, people who don't want Expanded Element, can choose to not take the extra element, and instead select a bonus Wild Talent, or possibly a feat.
By turning it into a class feature, you make it possible for everyone to, at least, get the souped up version of their elemental blast (like the Blue Flame Blast). Then, if they decide they don't want another element, they can just choose a bonus Wild Talent instead.
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This may have been answered already but how do feats such as point blank shot and rapid shot etc function with the blasts, or do they not function at all?yep it has been answered(answer below).
If I'm reading this properly, blasts are considered "ranged attacks" so they benefit from Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Haste, Snap Shot, etc?Of that list, only Deadly Aim would work.
In which case does precise shot work? If not are you then forced to suffer the penalty for using the blasts into combat?
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Actually it does, because there are spells which create rays, acid arrows, and splashes which also let you apply Point Blank Shot. These are considered to be weapons, you can even take "Weapon Focus (Rays)". Basically just because you have a spell like ability, does not mean the effect it generates is not considered a weapon.
Rays have a specific FAQ allowing them to be treated as weapons. This is not an all inclusive FAQ and would not apply to the kineticist's blasts, which are not rays (unless they change something somewhere).
Mark has stated that Arcane Strike works with blast if you can qualify for it, and weapon focus also works. I don't think it's so easy to say that Precise Shot doesn't apply. The things that don't work are those that rely on attack actions, such as rapid shot, since the blast is a standard action.
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I would only ask then, when do you make an attack roll that does not involve a weapon? Also do you then not include acid splash as getting a bonus from point blank shot, since it too lacks an FAQ that defines it as a weapon?
From another point of view, since you are treating the blast as an attack it will take in combat penalties and cover penalties. Which even if you use the range touch attacks is fairly bad. However for the ones that are normal attacks will be really rough for a 3/4 BAB class.
Yeah, I always understood ray of frost to be better than acid splash specifically because rays get to count as weapons.
And yes, the blast should suffer all the normal penalties for attacking enemies engaged in melee combat and/or with cover at range (at least that's my understanding).
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Actually, you only get 10' with Kinetic Whip, as it gives you the reach of a "reach weapon appropriate to your size" NOT the reach of the weapon you form with it.@Zwordsman - blade/whip/fist all say associated blast any. So to my knowledge you can use a composite blast with them.
you are correct on the lack of substance in a force blaster. You are also correct on the 1 form per blast limiter. Otherwise? Whip + Extended range. My god look at all those attacks of opportunity you just took by existing in my room.Actually picking a whip as your weapon with elemental whip already gives a 15' reach and the ability to attack adjacent targets.
At 16th level greater kinetic form grants 15' reach, doubled to 30' if using a reach weapon. Kinetic blade means all squares are threatened.
As a point of curiosity: what is the reach of a huge creature using a whip? If you follow the size progression for normal attacks and reach attacks it should be 45', but I don't believe whips on large/huge creatures are specifically addressed by RAW.
You are using two phrases that mean the same thing and implying they have different meanings. A whip is a reach weapon. When using a whip of the appropriate size, a medium creature has a 15' reach.
This functions as kinetic blade but extends your reach as if it was a reach weapon appropriate for your size.
The specific reach weapon used is not explicitly stated, which leaves the whip as a valid weapon choice.
I can't see any reason why attack rolls for the blast shouldn't take penalties for cover or firing into melee, which should mean that precice shot works. If not, that's a rough penalty to overcome on top of the accuracy issues they already have.
I love the class, tough I can see the weakness compared to alchemists.
An issue with the wording of Move Earth. It doesn't say if the earth you move has to stay in contact with other earth, and if not, how long it stays floating. Its going to make the text more cumbersome, but some idea of how much support the earth needs is a must. Can you ride a cube of earth as a very slow fly spell through continuous attention? Can you ride a cube of earth as an elevator up a wall, and does this depend on whether the wall is worked stone or not? If you raise a five foot cube straight up, does the earth underneath "come along" to make a pillar, or have you just created a small earthfall? The earth moves quickly enough that someone could fail to jump off; can it be used to move someone over and edge, and if so will it (and the rider) fall? Can it be used as a ram? A 5 ft cube of stone is approximately 16 tons, moving suddenly enough that someone might fail to jump off. I would overrun any Huge or smaller creature and smash most buildings.
This is an amazing power, but it needs quite a bit of clarification. Probably the answer to all these questions is a no, but that needs to be mentioned. Defining a power in physical terms is not the same as defining in in game terms.
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I was making my Water Kineticist to play in our local PFS game this week, and then into a new Iron Gods path starting next month. Just had a question and a comment. I may have missed the answer in an earlier post, wow the thread just keeps getting bigger every time I come back :)
1) Kinectic cover. How long is it suppose to last/duration? 1 round or longer? Since its a standard action I assume it should be at least a full round, but how long should it stay there?
2) Blast as spell like ability. I see the various posts here where this is spelled out. Thanks btw for being so active in the thread and responding so much :) I went back through the pdf a few times and I couldn't find it listed anywhere in the class description or blast rules. The closest I could find is in Wild Talents it says, "Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities." This may need to be more clearly defined in the kinetic blast rules.
I was making my Water Kineticist to play in our local PFS game this week, and then into a new Iron Gods path starting next month. Just had a question and a comment. I may have missed the answer in an earlier post, wow the thread just keeps getting bigger every time I come back :)
1) Kinectic cover. How long is it suppose to last/duration? 1 round or longer? Since its a standard action I assume it should be at least a full round, but how long should it stay there?
2) Blast as spell like ability. I see the various posts here where this is spelled out. Thanks btw for being so active in the thread and responding so much :) I went back through the pdf a few times and I couldn't find it listed anywhere in the class description or blast rules. The closest I could find is in Wild Talents it says, "Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities." This may need to be more clearly defined in the kinetic blast rules.
It actually does say it in the class description.
Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one of her element’s simple blast wild talents. The kineticist
can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will. A kinetic blast requires at least one hand free to aim the blast. All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
Ex = Extraordinary
Su = SupernaturalSp = Spell-like
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No, a whip is a very specific type of reach weapon that functions differently from normal reach weapons and has specific rules text that says it works differently. You don't get any other properties of the weapons you form beyond handedness, why would you get the extra reach from the whip?
You are using two phrases that mean the same thing and implying they have different meanings. A whip is a reach weapon. When using a whip of the appropriate size, a medium creature has a 15' reach.This functions as kinetic blade but extends your reach as if it was a reach weapon appropriate for your size.The specific reach weapon used is not explicitly stated, which leaves the whip as a valid weapon choice.
If no other properties are inherited, you gain no benefit from weapon finesse. Whips are the only reach weapon with the finesse property.
Without Weapon Finesse, the kinecticist is going to have difficulty hitting with melee touch attacks.
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It doesn't say "make a light or one handed reach weapon" it says "same as kinetic blade, but it also has reach." There's a difference.
Kinetic Blade allows the user to specify the weapon.
You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure
energy or elemental matter
The only property not inherited from the weapon chosen is the damage profile.
make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals
your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers
to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution
modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not
your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn.
The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast
deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for
a blast of its type
All other properties of the weapon are retained. Weapon Finesse is an option only because you are free to choose light weapons and one-handed weapons with the finesse property. The ability to use Weapon Finesse is not inherent in the SLA, but is a result of weapon choice.
Kinetic Whip, on the other hand says:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.
Specific weapon selection is removed as an option. We can treat this as a literal whip, or as a generic weapon with no special properties other than reach. In the latter case; no Weapon Finesse.
It's pretty obvious that the intention is for Kinetic Whip to give a double reach. All of this quoting of rules is only good for getting the rules clarified for when the book goes live.
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Kinetic whip does remove the choice of weapon selection:
You form a long tendril of energy or elemental matter using your kinesis.
And to quote the post you linked
It can definitely be used to trip or sunder, and if you make it light, you can finesse with it but not wield it in two hands. It doesn't grant any proficiencies, so the shape is mostly for cool factor. That said, this is a neat idea! I am strongly considering something special in there that lets you alter your kinetic blade to add weapon special qualities to it (like maybe adding a curving hook to add the disarm quality)
The weapon is finessable if you choose a light weapon. The weapon can be used two-handed if you choose a two handed weapon (and benefit from power attack if attacking normal AC). Choosing a simple weapon is recommended, as proficiency is not granted.
Since Kinetic weapon specifies the form, you loose the ability to choose weapon type. Proficiency and special properties are, apparently, not granted, though that is not currently specified in RAW.
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Pretty sure that's one of the points of the playtest.
And exactly the point I'm trying to make. If a rule can be reasonably mis-interpreted, better to make the argument before the rules are finalized.
And if giving the whip's reach is what is intended, it should probably specify that instead of just saying "a reach weapon appropriate for your size" as the whip is a very atypical reach weapon. I'd actually argue that despite its name, it's not intended to do that, as it doesn't suffer from any of the problems the normal whip does (nonlethal, doesn't threaten, provokes as a ranged weapon, can't hurt foes with certain amounts of armor) that you normally have to take a feat chain to fix.
I agree.
To quote a popular saying on the Rules forum "fluff text is not rules text." The rules of the ability are "This functions as Kinetic Blade, plus reach."
Unfortunately, this is also applied mid-sentence to eliminate just the parts a particular poster disagrees with. Statements that anywhere else would have been labeled fluff have been used as a hammer against unpopular archetypes. (Synthesist eidolon = translucent, as interpreted by people who don't understand the implications of the world in real world usage or that is it just as much fluff ans the Kinetic Whip's description.)
There is nothing explicitly calling out the specified form as fluff. That makes for an argument that it is RAW. Best to get an official resolution in playtest.
You can't form a two-handed weapon, actually (though you can certainly pick a one-handed form and two-hand it).
I mis-worded. The intent was to demonstrate creating a one-handed weapon and two-handing it while using Power Attack.
I would think that the tendril is not being wielded by hand, but instead by kinesis. The hand is needed to aim the attacks, but as it adds no strength damage, it seems that it can't be "2 hand wielded". However, I can imagine tough,a kineticist using another hand to improve control/focus in way that the tendril could be treated as a 2 handed weapon for power attack and other feats.
Where is that stated? That's weird, because if the stuff thrown takes damage, acid flasks and alchemist fires should break, which has been stated as not happening.
But Mark has said they don't. I wonder how he'll rule on this?
I think this rule that the object is ignored when determining damage will be changed. It just doesn't make sense. If a brick of silver is thrown at a werewolf it will damage him. If an adamantine block is thrown at a wall, it will crack, if you throw acid it will corrode. If the object is not important to the damage, then get rid of it, make a simple crushing force blast (bludgeoning damage). Witch btw, I think should exist anyway.
On a unrelated side note: what if the terra/geokineticist could attack with his blasts using strength? Something similar to the old brutal throw. I think it would be thematically appropriate.
I agree with a lot of the statements for better BAB I'm not sure whether it would be a sudo-full BAB like the Monk/Brawler or proper Full BAB. The problem is that the class is completely based on being able to hit with the wild blast and if he can't hit with it due to his 3/4 BAB then it defeats her purpose.
On burn. I have the feel that burn is about twice as costly as it ought to be. How about each burn point inflicting one point of Constitution damage that cannot be recovered normally, but is recovered automatically next day? Sure, this is worse in some ways (lessened abilities, reduced hp, chance of death), but you get to burn twice as much before you go down. Another problem with attribute damage is that the mechanism for it is rather complex.
As an alternative, make burn "damage" not scale with level. Say it is a static d10 regardless of level. Then a higher-level kineticist can burn more. Alot more.
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I'm wondering if there's a way that telekineticists could benefit from their high Con scores for the purposes of Light Touch. Maybe treating your Strength to lift objects as equal to your Constitution modifier + your kineticist level? If we go by max load as the cap, that would mean the average CON 18, 1st-level telekineticist could manipulate objects up to 50 lbs. (good, but certainly not game-breaking, I don't think), while a 20th-level TKer with, let's say CON 26 (from ability score increases and items) can manipulate up to 1,200 lbs (but remember: 20th-level). A 10th-level telekineticist with CON 22 is rocking up to 230 lbs.
This seems in line for what we might collectively conceive as appropriate for the different characeter levels. The consensus, I imagine, is somewhere between Carrie and Jean Grey, Omega-grade strength.
Obviously, as it stands, Telekinetic Haul is already more powerful, but it shouldn't be essential. Seems like a wild talent tax.