Is there any other way besides polearm master to use a polearm up close? I have been listening through the Wheel of Time and was thinking of building a character inspired by Mat Cauthon.
oh and I am only building the character out to lvl 11.
The Catch Off Guard feat will allow you to use the polearm shaft as a club/quarterstaff.
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You really ought to be able to shift your grip and attack adjacent. But RAW, you can't. Reach should be an optional ability, except perhaps for really long weapons like a sarissa. It's logical, reasonable, but a house rule.
You could add a house rule like this:
Shift your grip: When wielding a hafted two-handed reach weapon, you can opt to "shift your grip" on that weapon as a move action, effectively removing the reach quality until such time as you shift it back. While fighting with a shorter reach, you take a -2 penalty on all to hit and damage rolls, and lose the 50% damage bonus for high strength, power attack and similar abilities.
IMHO, this is fair and logical, and makes fighting this way suboptimal, but possible. Since it's a move action to "shift your grip", you could strike with reach and suddenly take an AoO adjacent, or vice-versa.
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Is there any other way besides polearm master to use a polearm up close? I have been listening through the Wheel of Time and was thinking of building a character inspired by Mat Cauthon.
To move on to actually making Mat in Pathfinder, you have several options, but I would go with a Sohei monk.
Mat is fast, he is good with horses, he has a lot of skill with the quarterstaff and polearms, and doesn't wear armor. Sohei has weapon training, can flurry with polearms, can kick if something gets close, has a huge bonus to initative, and has bonuses to AC and mounted combat.
Gaining a natural attack is a good way of doing this, so is a monk or brawler or sacred fist dip. It doesn't let you use your polearm up close, but it does allow you to threaten the squares adjacent to you. Not quite what you asked, but there's not a lot of ways of doing it with a polearm that don't replace important class features or are crummy.
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Simple solution: Take the Quick Draw feat.
Use your polearm most of the time. In the unlikely event you are pinned in a corner by an adjacent foe just drop your polearm & quick draw (free action) another weapon. Take your normal full attack.
Frankly, this doesn't happen very often. In 30+ levels of playing reach-weapon-wielding combatants I can count the number of times this has come up on one hand. One can do the same thing with a Move Action, but this limits you to a Standard Action attack. Arguably, given how infrequently it comes up, it's not even worth the Quick Draw feat.
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Agh! I just read up on "Polearm Master" and found this:
Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
Why is this action only available to such a small, restricted group of characters? Anyone wielding a polearm ought to be able to do this, possible restricting the "-1/4 lvls" part to the template.
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That's how they wrote the rules. They had to give reach weapons some downside, else everyone would use them all the time. Also, speaking as someone moderately proficient with a couple polearms (longspear, guandao) in real life martial arts, attacking someone up close is neither easy nor very effective. Once someone gets in close against you the polearm becomes a liability unless you either drop it or get away.
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Is there any other way besides polearm master to use a polearm up close? I have been listening through the Wheel of Time and was thinking of building a character inspired by Mat Cauthon.
I don't think that Mat Cauthon's weapon gives him reach anyway. I'd say that if you're trying to build Mat, you'd be better off with some sort of double weapon. (as he uses his spear like a quarterstaff - which is a double weapon)
If you're not playing PFS - I'd ask your GM about house-ruling an exotic double weapon which is something along the lines of -
1d6/1d8 - x2/18-20 - B/S (quarterstaff on one side - katana on the other)
and it allows you to use quarterstaff only feats with it. There are a few pretty sweet feats which are very cool, except they're being quarterstaff only makes them suck. Allowing you to use a homebrew weapon like the above would actually make them viable.
Polearm master archetype, bladed belt item (sometimes), ready action to step back, armor spikes, quick draw, free move item, pushing assault, stand still, natural attack, bladed boot.
To move on to actually making Mat in Pathfinder, you have several options, but I would go with a Sohei monk.Mat is fast, he is good with horses, he has a lot of skill with the quarterstaff and polearms, and doesn't wear armor. Sohei has weapon training, can flurry with polearms, can kick if something gets close, has a huge bonus to initative, and has bonuses to AC and mounted combat.
And they are also lawful which is definitely something Mat never was.
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And they are also lawful which is definitely something Mat never was.
To move on to actually making Mat in Pathfinder, you have several options, but I would go with a Sohei monk.Mat is fast, he is good with horses, he has a lot of skill with the quarterstaff and polearms, and doesn't wear armor. Sohei has weapon training, can flurry with polearms, can kick if something gets close, has a huge bonus to initative, and has bonuses to AC and mounted combat.
Are you sure? He was a partier, gambler, and a prankster, but if he have his word, he would keep it no matter what.
Anyway, you can be neutral or neutral good with a trait.
Simple solution: Take the Quick Draw feat.
Use your polearm most of the time. In the unlikely event you are pinned in a corner by an adjacent foe just drop your polearm & quick draw (free action) another weapon. Take your normal full attack.
Frankly, this doesn't happen very often. In 30+ levels of playing reach-weapon-wielding combatants I can count the number of times this has come up on one hand. One can do the same thing with a Move Action, but this limits you to a Standard Action attack. Arguably, given how infrequently it comes up, it's not even worth the Quick Draw feat.
Actually, I have a PFS character that does exactly that. She's only 5th level (Fighter/4, Brawler/1), but she wades into battle with a cold iron glaive-guisarme, and if something gets too close she can either kick it, smack it with her cestus (though I didn't realize when I bought it that she would no longer threaten with the CIGG, hence the level of Brawler), or drop it and quick draw one of her myriad weapons (scimitar, +1 battle aspergillum, a couple throwing axes, many different arrows). The only real problem I've had with her is that she must always begin with the polearm as that can't really be put away, so she constantly drops it to ready her composite shortbow or pull out her close combat weapons. However, she has her eye on the Scabbard of Many Blades, which will greatly alleviate this issue.
Back on track, if you want to be able to act on AoOs, dip brawler or monk to allow you to remain threatening at reach.
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@K-kun the Insane: How often are you unable to hit things with the polearm, such that you must switch weapons? Is this a common occurrence for you? I ask because, in my experience, it hardly ever happens. I've been tracking this topic on several characters for dozens of levels, and it comes up so infrequently as to hardly matter. If other people have a different experience I'm curious to figure out why.
Characters with reach always seem worried about how to hit things that get adjacent, but I never see characters lacking reach worry about how to hit things not adjacent.
No, I don't have a problem hitting things, at least not weapon related. (My dice like to roll low) The reach allows for additional maneuverability and when combined with a good team (PFS can be hit or miss on that regard) and the character concept of a swiss army knife, works really well. The only downsides are having to go retrieve the dropped weapons as well as the awkwardness of using things Fighters don't normally use, like thunderstones and pellet grenades.
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What I mean is, do other people actually have trouble being unable to attack foes inside their reach bubble? Do you often find your PC must switch to a non-reach weapon? I see a huge amount of concern about this topic, but in practice it hardly ever seems to happen. What I do not see are characters who lack reach yet are concerned about how to hit things not adjacent. Do other people notice this same double-standard? Why or why not?
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What I do not see are characters who lack reach yet are concerned about how to hit things not adjacent. Do other people notice this same double-standard? Why or why not?
I think it's more a matter of philosophy.
Someone with a reach weapon bought the weapon specifically so she could threaten more squares and make attacks of opportunity. She does not like it when the opponent is able to counteract the entire point of the weapon, so wants a contingency plan. Someone with a normal weapon bought it because it deals lots of damage at a satisfying crit range. Her battle plan isn't to deal AoOs, it is instead to get in range so she can attack as much as possible.
The character with the standard weapon is more concerned with making sure she stays within 5ft of her opponent so she can full attack it. The character with the reach weapon is more concerned with making sure she stays at a position where she can make attacks of opportunity.
The character with the reach weapon wants to threaten as many squares as possible (and therefore also wants to threaten adjacent squares). The character with the standard weapon isn't invested at all in this.
Whether or not the desire to threaten adjacent is a worthy goal is up for debate.
@Serum: Exactly. A character with a reach weapon is typically wanting to cover a larger field of the battle but sadly ends up like a fire emblem archer rather than a mage from the same series.
In Ionna's case (my character) the reach weapon may be her most iconic weapon, but it's really just another option in her tool(weapon)belt.
@Magda
The concern over getting stuck adjacent with a reach weapon has more to do with your team members than with the reach character themselves. There are plenty of situations where backing off to 10 ft away to fish for AoOs will just result in somebody else getting full attacked rather than you getting the AoO. I have seen fights break out between melee players and ranged/reach/caster players because "you cowards are getting me killed" multiple times and it has ended multiple games I have been in. It has everything to do with the expectations of the other people at the table and nothing to do with what is more mechanically effective.
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@Greg
Yes, I've seen this, too. I have a tough time understanding how people can be so stupid, and no pity at all for them. But yes, I agree, it's totally about expectations and psychology of people at the table, and has nothing to do with what is effective. Thanks for pointing that out.
Check with your GM and see if you'd be allowed to take the exotic weapon proficiency in Bisento from "More Ultimate Equipment". can be used both as a reach weapon AND up close. My GM allowed it with my reach cleric as his deities weapon, and i got addicted to that weapon fast...LOL
Bisento
The bisento is a spear-like weapon with a blade
resembling a scimitar. This is a very heavy
weapon with a 10 ft. reach – however, unlike many
polearms, it may also be used against adjacent
targets. If a ready action is used to set a bisento
against a charge, it will deal double damage
against a charging enemy.
Bisento: Large Exotic Weapon; 30 gp; Dmg
1d10; Critical x3; Range -; 20 lb.; Piercing and
Slashing
The Catch Off Guard feat will allow you to use the polearm shaft as a club/quarterstaff.
I did not know that. Nice tip.
Check with your GM and see if you'd be allowed to take the exotic weapon proficiency in Bisento from "More Ultimate Equipment". can be used both as a reach weapon AND up close. My GM allowed it with my reach cleric as his deities weapon, and i got addicted to that weapon fast...LOL
Bisento
The bisento is a spear-like weapon with a blade
resembling a scimitar. This is a very heavy
weapon with a 10 ft. reach – however, unlike many
polearms, it may also be used against adjacent
targets. If a ready action is used to set a bisento
against a charge, it will deal double damage
against a charging enemy.
Bisento: Large Exotic Weapon; 30 gp; Dmg
1d10; Critical x3; Range -; 20 lb.; Piercing and
Slashing
Seems OP and I like it.
I allow "shortening" the reach of a pole arm to be accomplished, but at -2 to hit.
The key is that a combatant might invest feats and/or class abilities, enchantments, etc., into getting really good with polearms or with a specific polearm. Such a character will find punching, biting, quickdrawing a backup weapon, etc., very unsatisfying because now they're not using the polearm in which they have invested.
As a polearm user, I would want a way to use my polearm at close-quarters, not some secondary sub-par alternative attack. There has been some advice in this thread for that.
The fact that it cannot be used this way is, IMO, a sloppy rule not supported historically.
Remember that, historically, many polearm users didn't carry backup weapons and managed to use their polearms just fine on the battlefield which ALWAYS degenerated into close-quarters melee.
By "just fine" I don't mean to say there are no drawbacks to close quarters polearm use. I simply mean that it should be possible. And IRL it is possible.
To this end, I think a houserule is the best suggestion. I would prefer an actual errata but that will never happen; more than a decade and a half since 3.0 came out and this awkward rule seems set in stone.
The FAQ was partially correct - a free action to adjust the grip is a good idea, but I prefer a swift action so it cannot be done twice in the same round. But the polearm is NOT an improvised weapon at this point - anybody proficient with polearms who has spent any time training/practicing with a polearm would have ABSOLUTELY trained with this shortened grip too. No improvisation at all. So no -4 attack penalty and no penalty for non-proficiency (unless, of course, the user is not proficient with the polearm in the first place).
But do apply a -2 penalty to attack rolls (for the weapon being awkward like this) and do drop the x1.5 damage bonus (shortened grip makes it like using one end of a double weapon for normal 1H damage, not 2H damage) and require that swift action on the wielder's turn to decide which grip he'll use.
That makes polearms the same at reach but with an option to still use them nearly as well in close quarters - but they're still weaker than using a normal 1H or 2H weapon in close quarters so they won't replace 1H and 2H weapons' roles.
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The FAQ was partially correct - a free action to adjust the grip is a good idea, but I prefer a swift action so it cannot be done twice in the same round. But the polearm is NOT an improvised weapon at this point - anybody proficient with polearms who has spent any time training/practicing with a polearm would have ABSOLUTELY trained with this shortened grip too. No improvisation at all. So no -4 attack penalty and no penalty for non-proficiency (unless, of course, the user is not proficient with the polearm in the first place).
The catch-off guard feat represents exactly the type of training a skilled polearm user would take to make an attack with the shortened grip or to bash someone with the shaft, and gets rid of the penalty.
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Hmm strange. I usually keep my polearm for 1-2 rounds(yay combat reflexes for free aoos!), then end up switching to my morningstar if the bad guy isn't dead. But again..I've been in lots of enclosed spaces. Maybe I should make a conscious effort not to switch weapons. The combat reflexes part when used to trip has been heck of a lot of fun.
But generally combat reflexes nets aoos only on the first round of combat. There have been several times, had I not attempted to trip, some monster would have a chance to smack me.
Due to the enclosed spaces I've been in and I have no ranks in acro(and probably will never bother with it), 20 ft movement speed to boot, I find it easier to give flanking without a reach weapon.
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If you allow 3pp then Path of War has the Warder that can threaten and attack adjacent with reach weapons at 6th(I think) level with an archetype. And the Martial Tradition for the Piercing Lance archetype allows you to threaten adjacent too as soon as you join - which could be level one.
It also has a [style] feat that allows polearms to count as light weapons so you could use weapon finesse and deadly agility on your ashandare. Matrim seems finessed based to me far more than strength. The Riven Hourglass discipline would also fit really well with his Ta'veren and general luck too. I want to make a path of war Warlord based on Mat now!
Dotting this for interest.
Note that Piercing Lance is currently undergoing rework that might affect tradition and style feats too, and both are playtests ATM.
And Zweihander Sentinel threatens adjacent with Armament Shield from level 1, as light shield isn't reach weapon.