I am glad both of you guys are working on it or thinking of making one.
Yea, me too.
chbgraphicarts, do you have links to any of your exotic WP builds? I'm intrigued to see what you have done with natural weapons in particular.
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chbgraphicarts, do you have links to any of your exotic WP builds? I'm intrigued to see what you have done with natural weapons in particular.
Natural Weapon Warpriest of Korada
Warpriest 10 / Urban Barbarian 2
Stats STR 10 / DEX 26 / CON 16 / INT 12 / WIS 18 / CHA 7
Traits Fate's Favored, ???
Blessings Community, Protection
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed Strike
Race Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL2 Brb1 Rage (Dex)
CL3 Brb2 Double Slice, Lesser Draconic Blood
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Weapon Focus (Claw), Feral Combat Training
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage Power - Lesser Fiend Totem
CL8 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL9 Wrp7 Extra Rage Power - Animal Fury
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
CL12 Wrp10
GEAR
• Furious Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
• Headband of Wisdom +4
• Belt of Dex +6
• Cloak of Resistance +3
• Celestial Armor
• Amulet of Natural Armor +1
• 2600gp remaining
Sacred Armor +1, Brawling
AC 26
Full Attack (Dex-Raging, Sacred Fist, Divine Power, Fight as One after first hit)
+28 Unarmed / +30 Unarmed / +30 Unarmed / +27 Bite / +27 Gore / +27 Claw / +27 Claw / +25 Unarmed / +25 Unarmed / +20 Unarmed
AVG DPR 227.225 per round (standing still)
Now, this is all presuming that Fight As One counts you as your own Ally (it probably should, but... eh, if it doesn't, it's still a LOT of damage).
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ST. MIGHTY THE ARMADILLO (Double-Shield Warpriest)
Human Warpriest 12
BASE STATS Str 12 / Dex 18 (16+2) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
STATS at lv12 Str 13 / Dex 26 (16+2+3+6) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
TRAITS Fate’s Favored, ???
BLESSINGS ???, ???
Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Light Shield)*
CL2
CL3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
CL4
CL5 Dual Enhancement
CL6 Shield Slam, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Greater Weapon Focus (Light Shield)*
CL8
CL9 ???, ???**
CL10
CL11 ???
CL12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, ???
GEAR
• Celestial Armor
• Lion’s Shield
• Lion’s Shield
• Belt of Dexterity +6
• Amulet of Natural Armor +1
• Cloak of Resistance +2
• Ring of Protection +1
Sacred Weapon Agile, Agile, +1
Sacred Armor +2
Full Attack at lv12 (Sacred Weapon & Divine Power Active)
+27, 1d10+3+8/ +27, 1d10+3+8/ +27, 1d10+3+8/ +22, 1d10+3+8/ +22, 1d10+3+8)/ +17, 1d10+3+8
AC at Lv12 (Sacred Armor Active) 35 = 10 +11(Armor) +8(Dex) +4(Shield) +1(Nat Arm) +1(Deflection)
*Retrain to (Heavy Shield) at lv11
** Retrain to Shield Master at lv11
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Double-Starknife / Thrower Warpriest
Human Warpriest 10 / Guide Ranger 2
BASE STATS Str 12 / Dex 18 (16+2) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
STATS at lv12 Str 13 / Dex 26 (16+2+3+6) / Con 14 / Int 12 / Wis 14 / Cha 7
TRAITS Fate’s Favored, ???
BLESSINGS Air, ???
Race Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Starknife)
CL2 Rng1 Track
CL3 Rng2 Double Slice, Precise Shot
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 ???*, Quick Draw
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Point-Blank Shot
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization
CL9 Wrp7 Rapid Shot
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL12 Wrp10
GEAR
• Blinkback Belt
• +3 Starknife
• +3 Starknife
Sacred Weapon +2
Sacred Armor +2
Full Attack at lv12 (Sacred Weapon & Divine Power Active)
+25 / +25 / +25 / +25 / +20 / +20 / +15
* Retrain to Dual Enhancement at lv6
The natural weapon build would be a bit low on rage rounds, wouldn't it? Especially for natural weapons to only apply while raging. Is there any reason not to use Tengu, Tiefling, or Half Orc to get some of those attacks in base form?
Otherwise, very cool build.
The natural weapon build would be a bit low on rage rounds, wouldn't it? Especially for natural weapons to only apply while raging. Is there any reason not to use Tengu, Tiefling, or Half Orc to get some of those attacks in base form?
Otherwise, very cool build.
Around 7 Rounds of Rage a day, which really isn't much, no. Rage is basically there as a "quick burst" effect that you only turn on when you absolutely, positively need something dead. Other than that, playing an Unarmed Warpriest gets the job done just about as well as the Sacred Fist.
If you're in a campaign where you can use Traits, ALWAYS take Adopted (Tusked), since it's a free Bite as a Human.
Tengu loses out on Martial Versatility and the Human Favored Class Bonus, but naturally has Bite and Claw attacks. A Tengu can be a pure Warpriest and do well.
Half-Orc may be the best option since they can take Toothy, and thus not have to take either Animal Fury OR Adopted.
Tieflings... just kinda suck for this build, sorry.
Ah, martial versatility, that was what I was overlooking. Thanks.
Anyone can get a bite attack with a ring of rat fangs. 5000GP is worth your choice of race and trait.
And a Helm of the Mammoth Lord can net you a Gore.
If you're willing to pay, you can get Claw/Claw/Bite/Gore and more, like Tentacle attacks; the problem is you're spending money on gaining attacks and not other stuff.
So, it's a toss-up
I know it wont work with the natural attack build but as a ratfolk character does a tailblade count towards your other natural attacks?
No. Tailblades and Kobold tail weapons are all Light Martial Weapons.
As always, you can make them in conjunction with Natural Attacks, but doing so reduces all your Natural Attacks down to Secondary status.
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The Warpriest's choice of isn't really too terribly significant to the Warpriest outside of a few things like extra Summon Monster options, or variant spells for priests. Unlike with the Cleric, the Warpriest is already going to be proficient with the majority of weapons, and besides the very questionable Weapon of the Chosen chain, there is no requirement at all to use a specific Deity's Favored Weapon.
Actually a lot of times you are more rewarded for not. Besides a few corner cases like Ragathiel -> Exotic and Martial Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword, the only real practical factor is what Blessings they offer, (and flavor obviously) within the class itself, and Blessings are very hit or miss. I'd say hands-down the 4 most powerful Blessings are the 4 Alignment based ones, and the are also the most prominent options.
The basic issue with the Warpriest is that it doesn't play to it's own strengths. It really doesn't fit too well the Divine Gish it was supposed to be. It lags too far behind the "Battle Cleric" and even moreso the "Battle Oracle" which might have been the better goalpost to have actually aimed for, despite the Fighter-Cleric being so iconic basically from day 1.
A major issue that the Cleric, and specifically the Battle Cleric runs into starting around level 5ish is that it becomes more and more difficult to attack when you have the higher level spells. This is mitigated somewhat by aiming for Quicken Spell/Rod asap and then also looking at prebuffing options, (particularly things like the long-lasting Magic Circle, Ride the Waves, Magic Vestment, and Greater Magic Weapon. The last two in particular help save the Cleric money, either for other magical properties or other gear. But, because the Warpriest has pretty significantly slowed spellcasting, these sort of tricks are not something they can count on. Instead, they are generally rewarded for being an extreme specialist (notice practically every build has Fortune's Favor and a bunch of Divine Favors).
While it's not a thematic option I want, it would have actually made more sense to go more like the Oracle, and just made it a Spontaneous caster.
Like the Battle Cleric, the Warpriest is going to be pretty hard pressed to have even half decent DC, so a lot of times blasting, debuffs, and direct attack options just are not going to work, or at least not much.
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I'm not sure if this is kind of what you want, but the reason I say that the 4 Alignment Blessings are so great is because they, from level 1 onwards, allow you to bypasse DR. But, unlike other spells such as Bless Weapon, it is not restricted o a single weapon, doesn't use your very limited spell resources, and can also be easily shared with the party as needed. Extra Alignment damage and also bypassing DR at level 1 like that is just pure gold.
Channel Energy, and please keep in mind these are just my opinions, not the one true way or fact, Channel Energy is something I'd almost rather they not even have at all. It isn't the nasty condition removal tool that a Paladin's becomes later on, and even when a Cleric basically maxes Channel Energy out, it's still a pretty weak ability all around after about 3rd level, give or take. At low levels, it's nice. At mid levels onwards it basically becomes a discount on recharges for the out of combat Wand of CLWs.
Negative Energy Channelers have a bit of a longer life with it, usually more around 5th - 7th level when it starts not being very effective. But, the key part here is that's when it's pretty much maxed out. The Warpriest's is slower, probably going to be significantly less powerful (DC), and it's also a lot less likely that the Warpriest is going to be towards the center of the party (for healing) as much as at it's front.
Again, my opinion, it's just there to be able to meat Prereqs for some things, and possibly also Channel Smite. Similar to the Cleric, a lot of times it's going to favor the evil cleric over the good one for in combat usefulness.
Now, that being said, grabbing a Greyflame weapon as an additional bump to your Sacred Weapon could be interesting, but probably not too terribly OP.
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The basic issue with the Warpriest is that it doesn't play to it's own strengths. It really doesn't fit too well the Divine Gish it was supposed to be.
You mean apart from getting free Quicken from level 2? Beating action economy is a big deal for a self-buffer. If you want to do more casting than fighting, full Cleric or Oracle are indeed better.
These were from when someone wanted to make a Cleave-focused Dwarven Warpriest some time ago. I modded 'em slightly so that other races would also work (like a Tengu)
Champion of the Faith - Dwarven Double Waraxe, Two-Handed
Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck
CL1 Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Double Waraxe), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2
CL3 Cleave, Detect Alignment
CL4 Smite, Sacred Weapon - Good vs DR
CL5 Cleaving Finish
CL6 ???
CL7 Toughness
CL8
CL9 Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical
CL10
CL11 Quicken Blessing - Good
CL12 ???, Sacred Weapon - Holy Enhancement
* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2
Champion of the Faith / Armored Hulk Barbarian - Dwarven Longhammer, Two-Handed
Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Wisdom
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck
CL1 Wrp1 Catch-Off Guard*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Longhammer), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2 Brb1
CL3 Brb2 Power Attack, Reckless Abandon
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Toughness/Extra Rage
CL6 Wrp4 Smite, Sacred Weapon - Good (vs DR)
CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage/Toughness
CL8 Wrp6 Improved Critical
CL9 Wrp7 ???
CL10 Wrp8 ???**
CL11 Wrp9 ???****
CL12 Wrp10
* to treat the shaft of the Longhammer as a Quarterstaff.
** Retrain to Greater Weapon Focus at lv10
*** Retrain to Quicken Blessing - Good at lv12
Warpriest - Katana, One-Handed
Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms)
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck
Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL2 Sws1 ???*, Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus (Nodachi)
CL3 Wrp2 ???
CL4 Wrp3 (???)
CL5 Wrp4 ???
CL6 Wrp5 Weapon Specialization
CL7 Wrp6 ???, ???**, ???***
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Critical Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quick Draw
CL12 Wrp11
* Retrain to Slashing Grace at lv2
** Retrain to Improved Critical at lv8
*** Retrain to Piercing Critical at lv11
>> Carry several Katanas with you; When you score a Critical Hit, leave them embedded in the enemy with Piercing Critical and Quick Draw a new one.
Warpriest - Nodachi, Two-Handed
Race: Human
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Wisdom, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Constitution
Dump Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck
Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL1 Wrp1 ???*, Weapon Focus (Nodachi)
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 ???, ???
CL4 Wrp4
CL5 Wrp5 ???
CL6 Wrp6 Weapon Specialization, ???*
CL7 Wrp7 ???
CL8 Wrp8
CL9 Wrp9 Improved Critical (Nodachi), Critical Focus**
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 Critical Versatility, ???
* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2
Warpriest - Nodachi, Two-Handed, plus Dwarven Boulder Helmet
Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Dexterity
Dump Stats: Charisma, Int
Armor: Full Plate
Blessings: Good, Luck
CL1 Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Boulder Helmet)
CL2
CL3 Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL4
CL5 Pushing Assault
CL6 Greater Bull Rush**
CL7 Furious Focus
CL8
CL9 ???**, Improved Critical (Nodachi)
CL10
CL11 Quicken Blessing - Good
CL12 Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Boulder Helmet)
* Use a filler Feat at first, then retrain to Power Attack at lv2
** First take something like Toughness at lv9. Retrain your 6th Level Bonus Feat to something like Dodge. Retrain your 9th level Feat to Greater Bull Rush since you now actually have a BAB of +6. Retrain your 6th Level Bonus Feat to Bull Rush Critical now that you are 9th level and as a Bonus Feat you count as having a BAB of 9 for the purposes of meeting Feat prereqs.
Sacred Fist - Scimitar, One-Handed
Race: Any
Highest Stat: Strength
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Dexterity
Dump Stats: Charisma, Int
Blessings: Good, Luck
Race (???)
CL1 ???*, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, AC Bonus,
CL2
CL3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Blessed Fortitude
CL4
CL5 Crusader's Flurry
CL6 Snapping Turtle Shell
CL7 ???, Ki Pool
CL8
CL9 ???, Miraculous Fortitude
CL10
CL11 Improved Critical (Scimitar)
CL12 Snapping Turtle Clutch
* Retrain to Snapping Turtle Style at lv2
Warpriest - Dual Dwarven Maulaxes
Race: Dwarf
Highest Stat: Dexterity
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Wisdom
Tertiary Stat: Intelligence
Dump Stats: Strength, Charisma
Armor: Elven Mail
Blessings: Good, Luck
CL1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Maulaxe)
CL2
CL3 Double Slice, Two-Weapon Fighting
CL4
CL5 Dual Enhancement
CL6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 ???
CL8
CL9 ???, ???
CL10
CL11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
CL12 Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Maulaxe)
First one got messed up & timed out for the editing option.
Champion of the Faith - Katana, One-Handed
Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms)
Highest Stat: Dexterity
Secondary Stats: Constitution, Charisma
Tertiary Stat: Strength
Dump Stats: Charisma, Intelligence
Blessings: Good, Luck
Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL2 Sws1 ???*, Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus, Chosen Alignment - Good
CL3 Wrp2 ???
CL4 Wrp3
CL5 Wrp4 ???
CL6 Wrp5 Weapon Specialization
CL7 Wrp6 ???, ???**, ???***
CL8 Wrp7
CL9 Wrp8 ???
CL10 Wrp9 Critical Focus
CL11 Wrp10 Quick Draw
CL12 Wrp11
* Retrain to Slashing Grace at lv2
** Retrain to Improved Critical at lv8
*** Retrain to Piercing Critical at lv11
>> Carry several Katanas with you; When you score a Critical Hit, leave them embedded in the enemy with Piercing Critical and Quick Draw a new one.
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Race Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Katana
CL2 Sws1 ???*, Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Focus, Chosen Alignment - Good
As a fan of Dex builds, I'd like to chime in on this one.
I would personally go for a kukri. With your scaling damage die, you're only 1 point of damage away from the katana at 1st, and the difference is lost once you hit CL 5th. This has several advantages. You can start as a human and get Weapon Focus (Warpriest bonus), Weapon Finesse, and Slashing Grace right at 1st level. This saves you a feat and a caster level, and you get to start with Dex to damage right away. This allows you to dump your Str and go with Piranha Strike (light weapon!). You also have the option to pick up TWF as a secondary style later when the static bonuses pile up (especially if you get one or two Agile Kukris).
I also just like the flavor of a Warpriest fighting with kukris. :)
If you don't feel like going TWF later, you could also follow Cayden or Besmara and use a rapier or a cutlass; very thematic. You'd have to buy Str 13 for Power Attack, though.
Oh, and definitely get the Amateur Swashbuckler feat! That way, you can power your Swordmaster's Flair for useful stuff like a +5' range increase for a minute, which is awesome (especially together with Lunge). You get a pool of 1 Panache even if you've dumped Cha, and it should regenerate like crazy. You can also learn Dodging Panache or the famous Parry & Riposte (unless it's been errata'd not to be selectable?) as your free deed.
-Give tips on what choices can favour the class with the WHY. Good example from what's missing in this guide is a discussion on ability scores, why are some of the ability scores green and some not?
Ex: With Fervor, you potentially gain an avg of 3,5 extra hp/day for each die. This means that both WIS and CON contributes to the warpriest's survivability. Does it mean that you can outright skip CON? Or is the extra Fervor from WIS just not worth favouring WIS over CON? Things like this is good to know when building a Warpriest, don't ignore it.
Thing is you're not using fervor to heal yourself, you use it for the swift spells, thus you can't skimp on con.
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Thing is you're not using fervor to heal yourself, you use it for the swift spells, thus you can't skimp on con.-Give tips on what choices can favour the class with the WHY. Good example from what's missing in this guide is a discussion on ability scores, why are some of the ability scores green and some not?
Ex: With Fervor, you potentially gain an avg of 3,5 extra hp/day for each die. This means that both WIS and CON contributes to the warpriest's survivability. Does it mean that you can outright skip CON? Or is the extra Fervor from WIS just not worth favouring WIS over CON? Things like this is good to know when building a Warpriest, don't ignore it.
This, a thousand times this.
Using Fervor for healing is a waste. Using fervor for anything that is not a swift action spell is a waste. If you want lay on hands, go Paladin.
Yeah, the fervor self heal is like, super emergency use only, so pretend it doesn't exist, same for their channel. The channel is used for the crusader's flurry. You don't use them to heal because the amount they heal is so low, even compared to similar abilities. Lay on hands is 1d6 per 2 level, warpriest is 1d6 per 3 levels. Channel is 1d6 at 1st and then another 1d6 per 2 levels. Warpriest is equal to their fervor amount, so it's super low compared to normal channel which a lot of people consider to be to low to really matter.
Thus the warpriest really only has these class abilities.
Blessings, swift buffs, extra feats, and sacred weapon and sacred armor. the latter two being seen as worse than the buffs you'd be getting using swift buffs so people don't value them that highly.
The self healing, channel, and weapon damage die are the "useless" class abilities it has.
Don't use horrible choices as examples in a guide, though... If you really plan to skimp on Con because you can heal, at least use the Fervor to quicken a Cure spell on yourself for much greater effect.
That means you actually have to prepare a cure spell though. Fervor doesn't work with spontaneous cures.
To explain my example a bit more, I was talking about the need of a discussion in a guide about a lot of things concering the class.
The example I used was WIS vs CON. Lets say you have them both at 14 and can afford one to 16. If you put it in CON, that's 1 more hp each level. If you put it in WIS, that's either a swift spell or an avg of 3,5hp extra/day at level 2. So by level 4, CON is ahead with 0,5 but at level 5 fervor healing is doubled. Later on WIS will pull away further. And WIS is also more flexible than CON in the manner that it doesn't always need to translate into health.
So while you say that you never use fervor for healing, maybe it's worth considering it if this means that it is more effective than bumping your CON as much as you'd normaly want and instead go for a bit more WIS.
But the thing is what you're comparing to is all wrong. Wisdom Doesn't equal HP because you're not using the fervor to heal. SO the comparison is "Is an extra use of fervor and +1 will worth 1hp per level and +1 to fort save?" This is the comparison.
Edit: The guide isn't a discussion or lecture.
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Don't use horrible choices as examples in a guide, though... If you really plan to skimp on Con because you can heal, at least use the Fervor to quicken a Cure spell on yourself for much greater effect.That means you actually have to prepare a cure spell though. Fervor doesn't work with spontaneous cures.
This was something I pointed out a lot in the Playtest, and never got an official response to. Its unclear. As written it does need to be a prepped spell, and thats what I go with. Some people argue that Spontaneous casting works, which really becomes very wonky forhow a positive and negative energy channeling Warpriest work. Unsure what the actual answer is, though.
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I still just don't see the usefulness of using Fervor for a very limited heal when you could be using it for a scaling bonus to hit and damage from divine favor, or a deflection bonus to AC from shield of faith, or an emergency restoration to immediately heal ability damage/drain/negative levels, or a haste effect with Blessing of Fervor.
At very high levels, you might want to use it for Heal, but that is a very different beast.
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The basic issue with the Warpriest is that it doesn't play to it's own strengths. It really doesn't fit too well the Divine Gish it was supposed to be.You mean apart from getting free Quicken from level 2? Beating action economy is a big deal for a self-buffer. If you want to do more casting than fighting, full Cleric or Oracle are indeed better.
Not really. Its nice, but a Battle Cleric/Oracle is going to compensate to do similar things. Prebuffing, focussing on long term spells, Quicken Rods ASAP, etc. . .
The fact that their spellcasting in general is limited, it shows pretty quickly when its starts to lag, and like I pointed out, around 5th to 7th level, its usually better to cast spells than to enter direct combat. Warpriest is no different, except they are not as good at the spellcasting and better at the direct combat part that tends to be less and less effective. Towards 10thish, its pretty evident.
At 8th level, a Fighter/Cleric is rocking Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Circle, etc. . ., while the Warpriest is still just going Divine Favor, Bulls Strength, etc. They dont get Righteous Might until 13th, 2 levels after the Fight Cleric or Oracle.
The fact that Fervor casting is only helping them is a huge hurdle, too. Who is doing more damage, the guy that casts Bless on the whole party, or later Prayer or the one that casts Divine Favor on themselves and gets one extra attack in the combat?
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The fact that Fervor casting is only helping them is a huge hurdle, too. Who is doing more damage, the guy that casts Bless on the whole party, or later Prayer or the one that casts Divine Favor on themselves and gets one extra attack in the combat?
I'd say they guy who casts Blessing of Fervor, and then Divine Favor, and then Contageous Zeal, all while full-attacking each round.
A warpriest in combat is like an avalanche falling down a mountain. Each round they are more dangerous than they were in the last.
It's funny how Wisdom and Constitution is directly connected to what you say is the "correct" comparison but comparing Wisdom and Consitiution is "all wrong". The reason as to why I even bring up the ability scores are because that's what results in number of extra hp and number of fervor uses.But the thing is what you're comparing to is all wrong. Wisdom Doesn't equal HP because you're not using the fervor to heal. SO the comparison is "Is an extra use of fervor and +1 will worth 1hp per level and +1 to fort save?" This is the comparison.
Edit: The guide isn't a discussion or lecture.
You're saying that fervor is equaling about 3.5 HP and goes up every so levels. That is false because you don't use fervor to heal. So wisdom does not equal HP. Thus you can't compare which is better to get, hp or fervor healing, because you don't get fervor healing.
You're saying that "you're not using the fervor to heal". I'm saying that maybe if you had more fervor and less hp, maybe you should. As only at level one and four does 1 more hp/lvl net you a higher hp/day than one more fervor that puts you at a higher access of hp/day at every other level. And if you don't need it? Well I guess you won't need to use fervor to heal.
This is not covered in this guide and I'm possitive that it can ONLY help to make a note of it. As it says now in the guide: "under no circumstances should you heal with it" does not help.
You don't use fervor to heal. so if you are deciding between fervor and HP you're deciding between a quickened buff and HP, not some potential healing. Your comparison is almost like, "which is better for a wizard con or int since int can be used to cast an extra infernal healing." which is completely not the things you're actually making a decision about.
And I guess by saying that "The guide isn't a discussion or lecture" you try advocate not sharing useful knowledge within a guide, which I think is just wrong.
The information you want in there is NOT USEFUL, and since the guide is not a discussion or lecture it's not going to explain and examine all aspects in detail. It's going to focus on the BEST options and tell you what the OPTIMIZED choices are.
Otherwise, I'll use your own words and ask you why you'd waste my time responding to my post if you have nothing useful to add.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh you're so funny. When I said that it was because I was asking for "someone that thought 'death should be a penalty and final'" and LazarX started commenting and explaining his view when he 'doesn't believe in penalizing people' and would either give the gold back to the party for the rez or let them bring in a new guy so he wasn't "someone that thought 'death should be a penalty and final'" and thus not someone I was wanting to talk with. For this topic I have added useful stuff and explained WHY it's not in there. You said you wanted discussion similar to explaining that "wis is HP" and I'm explaining why such a discussion and explanation is not in a guide. It's not an optimized use of fervor and thus not in the realm of a guide.
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A guide doesn't need restrict itself to optimization. Not all of us readers are optimizers. I look at a guide to gauge out the parameter space of good build options and see which ones I like. Sticking only to the very best options would be artificially limiting.
On the other hand, a guide should judge the effectiveness of the different options so the reader can make an informed choice. Wasting one's most precious resource on a blatantly ineffective action certainly shouldn't be presented as a viable course of action; that would be counterproductive. This was such a case.
It's not an optimized use of fervor and thus not in the realm of a guide.This is your opinion and you are allowed to have it. But I don't really care for your blunt statment that "you don't use fervor to heal". I don't think guides should be limited to "only best things are talked about here". I think everything within or around a class deserves some thought since there will be people looking for that as well.
And you seem to miss the entire point about my example and only focus on the fact that you don't want people to use fervor to heal.
I haven't missed your point. That was an example. Here lets give some more examples.
Give tips on what choices can favour the class with the WHY. Good example from what's missing in this guide is a discussion on (arcanist exploits, barbarian rage powers, blessings, feats, class skills, domains), why are some of the ability scores green and some not?
Ex:
1)With (any spellcasting class) you potentially (use all your spells to heal yourself). This means that (spells) and CON contributes to the classes durability. Does it mean that you can outright skip CON? Or is (using all your spells for healing) just not worth favoring (more spells) over CON? Things like this are good to know when building a (class), don't ignore it.
-This one is again comparing two things in a way that doesn't accurately reflect the value of the things you're comparing. Are spells = to the value of HP they on average give? NO! I doubt you hold the notion that wizards should be spending their spells for healing. That it's something to consider more. Yet this same idea is what you're example of fervor is.
2)With (a certain arcanist exploit) you potentially (do something you wouldn't ever want to do from an optimization standpoint). This means that (something lets say spells and the exploit) contributes to the (arcanist's utility). Does it mean that you can outright skip (spells)? Or is (a certain arcanist exploit) just not worth favouring (a certain arcanist exploit) over (spells)? Things like this is good to know when building an (arcanist), don't ignore it.
replace the () with stuff that is appropriate to the topic picked from (arcanist exploits, barbarian rage powers, blessings, feats, class skills, domains)
- Here is comparing something not worth doing to something else. Like getting a bonus on underwater basketweaving. Yeah people could discuss if it's worth that bonus or getting extra HP, but it's not worth discussing because the statement in the guide "you should never weave baskets underwater" was already said. The answer will be either, you're looking at trying to compare two things that don't correlate to each other, or you already have your answer.
The point still stands that I'm trying to make that I'm not sure your catching. They aren't going to go into discussions for options that aren't good or comparisons that don't line up. If you want to write an analysis for a class that talks about all the bad options feel free to share this info. But it doesn't belong in a guide.
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This was something I pointed out a lot in the Playtest, and never got an official response to. Its unclear. As written it does need to be a prepped spell, and thats what I go with. Some people argue that Spontaneous casting works, which really becomes very wonky forhow a positive and negative energy channeling Warpriest work. Unsure what the actual answer is, though.Don't use horrible choices as examples in a guide, though... If you really plan to skimp on Con because you can heal, at least use the Fervor to quicken a Cure spell on yourself for much greater effect.That means you actually have to prepare a cure spell though. Fervor doesn't work with spontaneous cures.
I don't want to derail the guide discussion to make it a rules argument, but I decided to allow it due to the following text in the core Magic chapter rules (italics added):
Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells: A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a bonus domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity spontaneously casts either cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.
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The point still stands that I'm trying to make that I'm not sure your catching. They aren't going to go into discussions for options that aren't good or comparisons that don't line up. If you want to write an analysis for a class that talks about all the bad options feel free to share this info. But it doesn't belong in a guide.
I'd disagree, just because some things may sound good, but depending on either how a given DM might interpret it (reasonably) or how that particular thing actually does work with other rules, it might be a poor option, or even a trap option.
For example:
First off, it's another Swift Action to give you the benefits of a lot of minor things you can already do naturally. Magic Weapon, Sacred Weapon, and plenty of Positive Energy options basically already do this all except for the Reroll Mischance, but the fact that it takes a Swift Action really undercuts when you can actually use this ability.
Not terrible, but again this is something that a lot of Warpriests can already do, and still kind of gets killed by the Swift Action Action Economy. These two Feats are generally seen as the Feat Tax to finally get Greater Weapon of the Choosen.
A lot of people don't seem to see this part. An Attack Action is a Standard Action and also think they can combine it with things like Vital Strike to help mitigate the lose of Full Attacks. But. . .
Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
So you can't actually combine Greater Weapon of the Chosen with most other options, meaning it's generally just a single normal attack. No Cleave, no Vital Strike, no charge, etc. . . Not so great after all.
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You absolutely can use greater weapon of the chosen with vital strike, because like vital strike itself, the wording of GWotC is a single attack with the attack action. You are making a single attack with the attack action on a vital strike, so the do stack. This has been confirmed by Owen Stephens.
What Imbicatus said. Vital strike needs the ATTACK ACTION. GWotC is when you make an attack with the ATACCK ACTION. So it's good to go together.
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There's even a section of the Melee Tactics Toolbox dedicated solely to explaining how this sort of thing works:
Attack Action: An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack, as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don't cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn't otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can't combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren't attack actions, such as Cleave.The most interesting thing here is the fact that you can use Greater Weapon of the Chosen with standard action trip/disarm/sunder attempts - and, it would seem, the feat Quick Dirty Trick, if your GM allows you to perform the Dirty Trick with a weapon.
Damn. You can combine Greater Weapon of the Chosen, Vital Strike, and Sunder. That weapon is going to be broken.
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Uh I guess the natural weapon build is screwed with the feral combat training errata.
"Screwed" is too light a term.
"Gangbanged with rusty, spiked strap-ons, strangled, beaten, drawn & quartered, burned the remains, threw the ashes in a fire, dropped a deuce in the acid, poured out into a 90-mile deep grave, and then pissed on the tombstone"
is more accurate.
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The natural weapon Sacred Fist is screwed. A natural weapon base warpriest can work out well, although you need Martial Versatility to apply Weapon Focus to all of your natural attacks.
The real power was with how Feral Combat Training completely bypassed the limitations of Sacred Weapon.
You could apply the effects of the Enhancement quality of Sacred Weapon to all Natural Weapons by targeting your Unarmed Strike.
The same goes for bypassing the "each weapon costs rounds separately" junk, because, again, FCT made targeting your Unarmed Strike apply to every Natural Weapon you had.
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Now that I've had time to have my b*$&%fit and cool down, I know how to get the build off the ground again, to a degree.
Champion of the Faith's Smite ability with 2 uses of Martial Versatility apply Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus to all your Natural Weapons, add your Charisma to attacks made with them, and your Warpriest level as damage.
IF your game is going up to lv16 or greater, you can take Martial Mastery in place of the second Martial Versatility to have ALL feats - Weapon Specialization and GWS among others - affect your Natural Weapons.
However, FCT also was a workaround for Brawling armor, which no longer happens.
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>> Carry several Katanas with you; When you score a Critical Hit, leave them embedded in the enemy with Piercing Critical and Quick Draw a new one.
First, I'm assuming you mean Impaling Critical. If not, then ignore me. Why would you leave the katana in your enemy and quickdraw a new weapon? It doesn't do anything when you do that.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with the selected piercing melee weapon, you can impale your opponent on your weapon. While your opponent is impaled in this way, each time he starts his turn, you deal damage equal to your weapon’s damage dice plus the extra damage dice from your weapon’s properties. As an immediate action, you can pull your weapon out of your opponent. If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him. Your opponent can also spend a move action to pull your weapon out. When the weapon comes out, your opponent takes damage as if starting his turn impaled. While you impale your opponent with your weapon, you cannot use it to attack, and you must hold on to it.
Note the bolded text. Once you let go of the weapon the 'impale' mechanic (that of doing extra damage at the beginning of the opponent's turn) ends. Though perhaps you just mean to hold onto it until your turn, so you get 1 instance of bonus damage without having to spend an immediate action to get your weapon back. Though you're losing your primary weapon in that case (and any use of Sacred Weapon that you've activated).
Well... it definitely doesn't have QUITE the destructive power that the original Natural Weapons build did, but it's close. Actually, it might even be MORE powerful in some regards; it only gets Smite a couple times per day, but when it goes off, HO-LY CRAP does it make heads explode.
NATURAL WEAPONS WARPRIEST
Champion of the Faith Warpriest 10/Urban Barbarian 2
Race Hmn Weapon Finesse
CL1 Wrp1 Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Bite), Chosen Alignment - Good
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Double Slice, Detect Alignment
CL4 Wrp4 Smite Evil 1/day
CL5 Wrp5 ???
CL6 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Weapon Focus), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL7 Brb1 ???*
CL8 Brb2 Lesser Draconic Blood
CL9 Wrp7 Extra Rage
CL10 Wrp8 Smite Evil 2/day
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus, Martial Versatility (Greater Weapon focus)
CL12 Wrp10
* Retrain to Extra Rage Power (Lesser Fiend Totem)