Undone |
Is multiclassing with the Warpriest really worth it?
Sacred fists benefit hugely from 1 level of MoMS or Mutagen fighters depending on what you want. Keep in mind you can flurry while using a shield or even tower shield with a scimmy/longsword/any deity weapon. Your sacred fist of the best god can be in full plate shield and rapier and not suck since you can flurry with the rapier.
Kudaku |
Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
The semicolon after IUS shows that you only need one of the three. Sacred Fist gets Flurry of Blows as a class feature, and so qualify for Pummeling Style.
I agree that SF can flurry in full plate at the moment, but I'll be astonished if they don't change that with the upcoming ACG errata.
Undone |
Looking at your Sacred Fist build, you have it taking pummeling style at level 1 warpriest. The requirements for that feat are BAB +6. So I am wondering if I am missing something or is this a mistake?
Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
You pick 1.
Is multiclassing with the Warpriest really worth it?
The base WP should never multiclass. However the sacred fist (Especially the MoMS) benefits HUGELY both in the short (Levels 2 to 11) and long term (12-20) because fuse style with pummeling dragon or pummeling snake are INCREDIBLY strong. Especially pummeling dragon at mid levels (9 ish).
FelwynGD |
FelwynGD wrote:Looking at your Sacred Fist build, you have it taking pummeling style at level 1 warpriest. The requirements for that feat are BAB +6. So I am wondering if I am missing something or is this a mistake?Quote:Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.You pick 1.
Quote:Is multiclassing with the Warpriest really worth it?The base WP should never multiclass. However the sacred fist (Especially the MoMS) benefits HUGELY both in the short (Levels 2 to 11) and long term (12-20) because fuse style with pummeling dragon or pummeling snake are INCREDIBLY strong. Especially pummeling dragon at mid levels (9 ish).
Oh that makes sense. Nice!
Melkiador |
The thing about flurry is that not only is it base stronger than sacred weapon, but it also has a lot of feats out there to buff it up.
If base WP is ever going to be made competitive with sacred fist it will probably come in the form of a fairly strong feat for sacred weapon. Like a feat that makes sacred weapon at will as a free action. That would put base WP roughly on par with sacred fist.
Undone |
If base WP is ever going to be made competitive with sacred fist it will probably come in the form of a fairly strong feat for sacred weapon. Like a feat that makes sacred weapon at will as a free action. That would put base WP roughly on par with sacred fist.
Not even in the same stratosphere. You'd need full BAB to make it an EVEN trade.
Insain Dragoon |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If only Sacred Armor and Sacred Weapon were both tied into the same class feature with the same duration....
I feel like I heard that idea before.... About a year ago :/
Sorry. I'm just a teensy bit bitter. Warpriest was THE class I was most excited about pre playtest, then phase one made me sad, then phase two rocked my body and fot me pumped, then final release makes me a sad, sad panda.
But hey at least the Hunter, AKA the class I was disapointed at for being in the book instead of rogue/wizard hybrid, is now really mechanically interesting in play!
Insain Dragoon |
While that would actually be a unique way to use a "rounds per level" buff I don't think the PDT would ever print something so obviously good in its application. They usually catch themselves before printing good feats lie that or have a complete editing fail necessitating an over-nerf later.
Maybe in a Player Companion book we'd see something like that.
Undone |
Reminder that they are nerfing pummeling charge down to just pounce with UAS.
The crit thing doesn't multiply everything and it wont be useable with regular weapons.
A good example of Paizo having an editing fail followed by "we printed what? In a CORE book?"
The crit thing does multiply everything. It has always been UAS ever since like 3 weeks after the book hit the shelves.
Insain Dragoon |
I think it will be changed as such
Pummeling Style
-You make a full attack and total the damage together as if it were one attack. Since this is all one attack a possible problem is you critting with 1 or more substituent attacks while having a critical feat or a class feature reliant on crits.
-The second part will clarify that if a substituent attack crit, just count the "pummeling strike" as the crit for that effect. Use full BAB for confirmation. Only that substituent attack gets multiplied damage.
Pummeling charge
-You may use Pummeling Style on a charge.
Undone |
It need to clarify how it interacts with things that only work for the first attack, and how it works for things that get a bonus per hit. Like do I get 7 sneak attacks or 1? Do I get all rolls with a charge bonus or just 1? Or do I get 7 sneaks with all charge :D
This part may gut the dragon/pummeling build which would be sad panda but it wouldn't make the build bad.
leo1925 |
You might want to mention the wheeling charge as a feat for the lancer warpriest, yes it's a kinda weird feat (requires you to have ties to Lastwall) but it's a very good feat.
Redblade8 |
I was going over this guide in the process of working up a Warpriest that's been kicking around my mind (v nice guide, by the way), when I noticed something. A lot of your build suggestions call for maxing ranks in Acrobatics. I'm assuming this is for the ability to move through threatened areas, but the skill description states you can't do that if you're wearing medium or heavy armor. Did I miss something?
Later on,
Ghorrin Redblade
chbgraphicarts |
Was looking back at the Tengu, and realized that the Half-Elf is just as nasty a little bugger at being a Natural Attack monster as the Tengu.
Adaptability gives you Skill Focus as your Racial Bonus Feat, which opens the door for Eldritch Heritage.
SIR IDENTITY CRISIS
Stats Str 10 / Dex 17(15+2) / Con 14 / Int 11 / Wis 14 / Cha 12
Trait Adopted (Orc - Tusked) or Adopted (Goblin - Mother's Teeth)
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed Strike
Race Half-Elf Skill Focus (Perception)
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Feral Combat Training (Bite)
CL4 Wrp4 Cha 13
CL5 Wrp5 Eldritch Heritage (Draconic)
CL6 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Wrp7 Double Slice
CL8 Wrp8 Dex 18
CL9 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 ???, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting | Dex 19
Lv12 Full Attack (with Sacred Weapon active): +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)
Undone |
Was looking back at the Tengu, and realized that the Half-Elf is just as nasty a little bugger at being a Natural Attack monster as the Tengu.
Adaptability gives you Skill Focus as your Racial Bonus Feat, which opens the door for Eldritch Heritage.
SIR IDENTITY CRISIS
Stats Str 10 / Dex 17(15+2) / Con 14 / Int 11 / Wis 14 / Cha 12
Trait Adopted (Orc - Tusked) or Adopted (Goblin - Mother's Teeth)
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed StrikeRace Half-Elf Skill Focus (Perception)
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Feral Combat Training (Bite)
CL4 Wrp4 Cha 13
CL5 Wrp5 Eldritch Heritage (Draconic)
CL6 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Wrp7 Double Slice
CL8 Wrp8 Dex 18
CL9 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 ???, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting | Dex 19Lv12 Full Attack (with Sacred Weapon active): +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)
Natural weapon builds are quite good. Specialized I admit but incredible early on. It does lose out at higher levels but it's a trade off.
I like this build but my preference for natural attacks is to incorporate them into 2 handed full attacks (Half orc tusked comes to mind.) instead of relying on them exclusively. I do not however like TWF unless you take the travel blessing for dimensional pounce or a quicken rod for movement magic.
Warg |
I am confused with the Sacred Fist build.
When I plug it into Herolab and take Ki Channel at lvl 4 I notice there is no ki pool. Yet it also added the lvl 4 abilities from the monk class like ki defnse, flurry, speed and strike but no pool to use the ki. The Ki pool does not show up untill I put in lvl 7 warpriest and then it also adds lvl 7 monk abilities like ki strike coldiron/silver.
Is this how its intended to work or is Herolab broken for this build?
Undone |
I am confused with the Sacred Fist build.
When I plug it into Herolab and take Ki Channel at lvl 4 I notice there is no ki pool. Yet it also added the lvl 4 abilities from the monk class like ki defnse, flurry, speed and strike but no pool to use the ki. The Ki pool does not show up untill I put in lvl 7 warpriest and then it also adds lvl 7 monk abilities like ki strike coldiron/silver.
Is this how its intended to work or is Herolab broken for this build?
That is because the sacred fist does not get a Ki Pool until 7th. You take the feat at 5th because you've got an open slot. You've basically on monk -3 for all ki related effects.
chbgraphicarts |
Natural weapon builds are quite good. Specialized I admit but incredible early on. It does lose out at higher levels but it's a trade off.
I like this build but my preference for natural attacks is to incorporate them into 2 handed full attacks (Half orc tusked comes to mind.) instead of relying on them exclusively. I do not however like TWF unless you take the travel blessing for dimensional pounce or a quicken rod for movement magic.
A fun trick I realized is that Feral Combat Training is a better way to get Sacred Weapon to hit all your weapons at once than Dual Enhancement.
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
That last little bit right there is the key. So, for the example above, if you have a Bite and two Claws, you take Feral Combat Training and Martial Versatility targeting FCT (or if the game goes on longer, Martial Mastery).
When you activate Sacred Weapon, you target Unarmed Strike (since your whole body is considered Unarmed Strike, it's a workaround for Two-Weapon Fighting). When you do that, because you've augmented Unarmed Strike, Feral Combat Training + Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training) reacts and pumps up all your Natural Weapons at once.
One Swift Action, 4+ total Weapons hit (an Aasimar can hit with Metallic Wings later, though if you somehow can polymorph into something like a Dragon, then... hehehehehehe).
It's a little more Feat-intensive than simply Dual Enhancement (two to 3 feats instead of 1), but the added little gem is that you can give your Unarmed Strike an ability and have ALL your Natural Attacks gain the same ability, which Dual Enhancement can't.
Gotta love loopholes.
Warg |
Warg wrote:That is because the sacred fist does not get a Ki Pool until 7th. You take the feat at 5th because you've got an open slot. You've basically on monk -3 for all ki related effects.I am confused with the Sacred Fist build.
When I plug it into Herolab and take Ki Channel at lvl 4 I notice there is no ki pool. Yet it also added the lvl 4 abilities from the monk class like ki defnse, flurry, speed and strike but no pool to use the ki. The Ki pool does not show up untill I put in lvl 7 warpriest and then it also adds lvl 7 monk abilities like ki strike coldiron/silver.
Is this how its intended to work or is Herolab broken for this build?
Ok but why is it at character lvl 7, the warpriest lvl 7 abilities are turned on in hero lab when actulay he is only a lvl 6 warpriest cause of the dip in monk?
BadBird |
I think you might be overstating the case against a two-handed Warpriest compared to a full BAB class. Not having that first -5 iterative for two levels is quite noticeable when actually making a full attack, but by level 11+, the advantage of having one extra -10 iterative attack is rendered fairly insignificant by Haste. Or, if there is no Haste, potentially by Divine Power - in which case a full BAB class probably wishes they had access to a -0 extra attack instead of a -10 one.
Undone |
I think you might be overstating the case against a two-handed Warpriest compared to a full BAB class. Not having that first -5 iterative for two levels is quite noticeable when actually making a full attack, but by level 11+, the advantage of having one extra -10 iterative attack is rendered fairly insignificant by Haste. Or, if there is no Haste, potentially by Divine Power - in which case a full BAB class probably wishes they had access to a -0 extra attack instead of a -10 one.
It depends on what you're comparing it to. A Barbarian, paladin, ranger, or fighter will likely hit on a 2-6 for the -10 last iterative hit.
This is because they've got huge hit bonuses (rage, reckless abandon, smite, favored enemy, WF/GWF/Weapon training, Furious, Courageous,) If it's about damage then I'd definitely rather be a full BAB class with high static damage/hit than temp buffs. Admittedly if they're too stupid to buy boots of speed by 10-12 you're ahead but really by level 10-12 they will own it.
Haste disproportionately benefits those who hit on a 2 (Or 3 Pre haste).
There really is no way to replace the extra attack especially when you're ready to hit on it. It's just math. There's really little equal in terms of DPR to an extra attack.
chbgraphicarts |
BadBird wrote:I think you might be overstating the case against a two-handed Warpriest compared to a full BAB class. Not having that first -5 iterative for two levels is quite noticeable when actually making a full attack, but by level 11+, the advantage of having one extra -10 iterative attack is rendered fairly insignificant by Haste. Or, if there is no Haste, potentially by Divine Power - in which case a full BAB class probably wishes they had access to a -0 extra attack instead of a -10 one.It depends on what you're comparing it to. A Barbarian, paladin, ranger, or fighter will likely hit on a 2-6 for the -10 last iterative hit.
This is because they've got huge hit bonuses (rage, reckless abandon, smite, favored enemy, WF/GWF/Weapon training, Furious, Courageous,) If it's about damage then I'd definitely rather be a full BAB class with high static damage/hit than temp buffs. Admittedly if they're too stupid to buy boots of speed by 10-12 you're ahead but really by level 10-12 they will own it.
Haste disproportionately benefits those who hit on a 2 (Or 3 Pre haste).
There really is no way to replace the extra attack especially when you're ready to hit on it. It's just math. There's really little equal in terms of DPR to an extra attack.
But one thing you're missing here is that the vast majority of those times, all those buffs are overkill in terms of to-hit: a +15 to-hit is just as effective as a +20 against an AC 17, after all, and with everyone having some method of increases to-hit chances substantially (Sacred Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.) it becomes a moot point even vs higher ACs
Sacred Fist, Warpriest, Cleric, Bard, Magus, Inquisitor, Hunter, etc. can all buff well enough to equal a full BAB character in terms of accuracy.
The base Warpriest gains full access to the Weapon Focus feat tree plus the ability to use Natural Attacks as part of a Full Round Attack; the Sacred Fist has Flurry of Blows (but can't make Natural Attacks in addition to a Flurry, though). Both have the ability to make as many attacks as a full BAB class, or even more, and at basically the same levels of accuracy.
So while, yes, the to-hit values of a fully-buffed full-BAB class will be unquestionably higher than both the SF's and WP's to-hit, it's effectively just wasted effort, since a fully-buffed SF and WP is more than enough to hit and beat the ever-loving shite out of most things anyway.
And, in terms of damage buffs, both the SF and Warpriest have access to things other classes don't - that being Blessings. Destruction Blessing and others make up for the lack of things like Smite, Rage/Bloodrage/Mutation to pump Strength, or other damage-increasing abilities.
Undone |
But one thing you're missing here is that the vast majority of those times, all those buffs are overkill in terms of to-hit: a +15 to-hit is just as effective as a +20 against an AC 17, after all, and with everyone having some method of increases to-hit chances substantially (Sacred Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.) it becomes a moot point even vs higher ACs
That's not how AC actually functions though. Using average AC values per level your primary will likely be a 2-5+ hit, iterative a 6-10+ hit, and the last iterative a 11-16 hit. Adding +1 more to hit increases to hit on 2 hits.
Sacred Fist, Warpriest, Cleric, Bard, Magus, Inquisitor, Hunter, etc. can all buff well enough to equal a full BAB character in terms of accuracy.
In terms of accuracy the full BAB types start at hit on a 2 when buffed. "Well enough" is subjective.
The base Warpriest gains full access to the Weapon Focus feat tree plus the ability to use Natural Attacks as part of a Full Round Attack; the Sacred Fist has Flurry of Blows (but can't make Natural Attacks in addition to a Flurry, though). Both have the ability to make as many attacks as a full BAB class, or even more, and at basically the same levels of accuracy.
Weapon focus mitigates the lost BAB, but is no replacement for it. -5 + 2 is still negative 3. The sacred fist having FoB is explicitly called out as the best archetype because it defeats the massive issue of not full BAB by giving you full BAB and then some.
So while, yes, the to-hit values of a fully-buffed full-BAB class will be unquestionably higher than both the SF's and WP's to-hit, it's effectively just wasted effort, since a fully-buffed SF and WP is more than enough to hit and beat the ever-loving s%$+e out of most things anyway.
Getting an equal number of attacks is the main issue. The to hit bonuses are less of an issue as you're competitive (approximately -3-4) in to hit if you're doing it right.
And, in terms of damage buffs, both the SF and Warpriest have access to things other classes don't - that being Blessings. Destruction Blessing and others make up for the lack of things like Smite, Rage/Bloodrage/Mutation to pump Strength, or other damage-increasing abilities.
The destruction blessing helps mitigate the losses but it's not comparable to smite/rage/reckless abandon or the other options. I'm not trying to say it's terrible I'm just pointing out that this is based on math. They get more damage at the cost of utility. The only way you pass them is using SF Ki points while hasted or quickened blood crow strikes.
BadBird |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There really is no way to replace the extra attack especially when you're ready to hit on it. It's just math. There's really little equal in terms of DPR to an extra attack.
Well, statistically, if we say that a normal attack hits 90% of the time, then the situation with Haste looks like 90/65/40/*90 with a third iterative, or 90/65/*90 without it. The difference in average hits is 285 vs 245, meaning that the increase in damage from a third iterative is around +16%. If a Warpriest effectively leverages bonuses from things like Divine Favor/Power + Fate's Favored, Greater Magic Weapon (to instead grab weapon abilities), Sacred Weapon, increased damage dice, weapon specialization, and blessings, they're unlikely to end up at a disadvantage in damage.
The destruction blessing helps mitigate the losses but it's not comparable to smite/rage/reckless abandon or the other options.
To be fair, a level 12 Barbarian raging with a +2 Furious, Courageous weapon is getting +6 damage from his +8 strength. A level 12 Warpriest using the Destruction blessing is adding +6, and it's going up +1/2levels. The Warpriest also has a flexible +3 Sacred Weapon bonus and maybe +2/4 from specialization if they weren't feeling creative with feats.
Weapon focus mitigates the lost BAB, but is no replacement for it. -5 + 2 is still negative 3.
Divine Favor/Power, hopefully with Fate's Favored, is the replacement for it.
Say a level 9 Barbarian is up 3 points of BAB, and pays -3ab for Power Attack; Divine Favor is giving the Warpriest +3/4ab, while he's paying -2ab for Power Attack. The Barbarian gets +3 damage from more Power Attack; the Warpriest gets +3/4 damage from Divine Favor. The Barbarian uses rage to boost attack and damage by +2/+3; the Warpriest has Weapon Focus and Specialization for +1/+2. At this point, the Fate's Favored Warpriest is actually ahead by 1ab and tied in base damage, and once again this isn't bringing his other potent abilities into consideration.
Interestingly, a strength or dexterity based TWF Warpriest can leverage these kinds of bonuses to even greater benefit, using bonus feats to pick up iterative offhand attacks early and Warpriest features to pile static damage bonuses onto both weapons.
chbgraphicarts |
I'd want to see what an average full BAB class can hit. I know that Barbarians can hit hilariously-high ACs, but they're "Overkill: The Class" after all, so I'm not sure they're a great litmus test; I wonder if Rangers, Paladins, and Fighters would be better examples.
Anyway, these are calculations I was able to come up with for a Sacred Fist flurry and a Natural-Weapons-Unarmed-focused Warpriest to use against a full-BAB attacker's build.
WARPRIEST 12
Dex 18 >>> 20 + 4 (item), Wis 16, AMF (Agile)
(Racial Heritage (Ratfolk) & Sharpclaw, in place of Skill Focus & Eldritch Heritage)
Main +29 (+9 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge) (Divine Power)
Main +29 (+9 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Off +29 (+9 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Bite +26 (+9 BAB -5 2ndry +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Claw +26 (+9 BAB -5 2ndry +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Claw +26 (+9 BAB -5 2ndry +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Main +24 (+4 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Off +24 (+4 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Off +19 (-1 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge)
Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus + Divine Power + Fate's Favored + Sacred Weapon + Strength Blessing + Ability - Power Attack
1d10+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Sacred Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction)+6(Power Attack)+4(Greater/Weapon Specialization)+7(Ability, Dex) x 3
+
1d10+5+3+6+3+4+7 x 3
+
1d10+5+3+6+3+4+3 x3
=
292.5 avg damage / round, Pummeling Charge, all hit
SACRED FIST 11 / MASTER OF MANY STYLES 1
Str 18 >>> 20 + 4 (item) + 2 (Permanent Enlarge Person), Wis 16
Flurry +27 (+11 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str) (Divine Power)
Flurry +27 (+11 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str) (Ki)
Flurry +27 (+11 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str)
Flurry +27 (+11 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str)
Flurry +22 (+6 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str)
Flurry +22 (+6 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str)
Flurry +17 (+1 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str)
Weapon Focus + Divine Power + Fate's Favored + Greater Magic Weapon + Destruction Blessing - Power Attack
2d8+4(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+2(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+5(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+6(Power Attack)+16(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x1
+
2d8+4(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+2(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+5(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+6(Power Attack)+12(Ability, Str, Dragon Style) x6
=
270 avg. DPR, Pummeling Charge, all hit
---
Interestingly, I also looked at a pure Sacred Fist, and what I found is that it's significantly BETTER than a Sacred Fist/Master of Many Styles for DPR - however, you either forego Dragon Style OR Pummeling Style. Dragon Style yields greater Damage than even the base Warpriest focusing on Natural Weapons BUT you lose out on the Pummeling Style nonsense in how Critical Hits are calculated.
SACRED FIST 12
Str 18 >>> 20 + 4 (item) + 2 (Permanent Enlarge Person), Wis 16
Flurry +29 (+12 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge) (Divine Power)
Flurry +29 (+12 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge) (Ki)
Flurry +29 (+12 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge)
Flurry +29 (+12 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge)
Flurry +24 (+7 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge)
Flurry +24 (+7 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge)
Flurry +19 (+2 BAB + 1 WF + 4 DP + 1 FF + 3 GMW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 4 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str + 2 Charge)
Weapon Focus + Divine Power + Fate's Favored + Greater Magic Weapon + Strength Blessing - Power Attack - Size + Ability
2d8+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+8(Power Attack)+8(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x7
=
273 avg DPR, Pummeling Charge, all hit
OR
2d8+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+8(Power Attack)+16(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x1 = 47
+
2d8+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+8(Power Attack)+12(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x6
=
305 avg. DPR, no Pummeling style, all hit.
Undone |
Divine Favor/Power, hopefully with Fate's Favored, is the replacement for it.
Say a level 9 Barbarian is up 3 points of BAB, and pays -3ab for Power Attack; Divine Favor is giving the Warpriest +3/4ab, while he's paying -2ab for Power Attack. The Barbarian gets +3 damage from more Power Attack; the Warpriest gets +3/4 damage from Divine Favor. The Barbarian uses rage to boost attack and damage by +2/+3; the Warpriest has Weapon Focus and Specialization for +1/+2. At this point, the Fate's Favored Warpriest is actually ahead by 1ab and tied in base damage, and once again this isn't bringing his other...
And +3 for reckless abandon, Possibly +3 for witch hunter, and +6 from PA due to reckless rage in addition to being nearly a mono stat class likely meaning it can start a 20 in str while the WP cannot.
The WP is behind and will be but it's not so huge that it's a problem. The loss of an iterative is however very large.
There is also no equal to CaGM basically in the entire game. It's nearly unparalleled in DPR.
@chbgraphicarts
Your numbers are way off for various reasons.
WARPRIEST 12
Main +29 (+9 BAB +2 WF/GWF +4 DP + 1 FF + 3 SW + 6 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA + 7 Dex + 2 Charge) (Divine Power)
The limbs which are treated as secondary natural attacks have much lower damage because both the PA and str are halved. You also can't have GWF claw and bite.
Secondly you use two rounds of buffs which is unrealistic if your DPR crests the opposing equal level creature's HP.
Thirdly the destruction blessing (in addition to being excessive buffing) is very low on the level 12 damage rating for choice of blessings. Good, law, or Evil blessings a ton better in terms of DPR since they provide auto flanking as well.
SACRED FIST 11 / MASTER OF MANY STYLES 1
Flurry +27 (+11 BAB + 1 WF + 3 DP + 1 FF + 2 GMW + 5 SB - 2 TWF - 3 PA - 1 Size + 8 Str) (Divine Power)
Why does he not have magical knack. That alone is +1 hit/damage. I don't really feel like going through and picking this apart point by point but I can assure you that in actual fights pummeling charge adds more per fight damage than any other available feat. Why doesn't he get the charge bonus?
Interestingly, I also looked at a pure Sacred Fist, and what I found is that it's significantly BETTER than a Sacred Fist/Master of Many Styles for DPR - however, you either forego Dragon Style OR Pummeling Style. Dragon Style yields greater Damage than even the base Warpriest focusing on Natural Weapons BUT you lose out on the Pummeling Style nonsense in how Critical Hits are calculated.
The damage on both the SF and SF/MoMS is wrong. Dragon ferocity/style applies to every hit on a charge as there is only 1 hit. Something only the MoMS/SF can benefit from and which you do not use.
chbgraphicarts |
The limbs which are treated as secondary natural attacks have much lower damage because both the PA and str are halved. You also can't have GWF claw and bite.
Actually, if you look at the damage I have it listed as weaker:
1d10+5+3+6+3+4+3 x3
Also, they DO, in fact, get Greater Two-Weapon Fighting because of this little bitty:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Because GWF is targeting Unarmed Strike, it then carries over to your Natural Attacks.
Martial Versatility is in there specifically because FCT normally only targets one Natural Weapon, but MV + FCT targets all Natural Weapons.
chbgraphicarts |
Why doesn't he get the charge bonus?
'Cause I realized I missed that part too late to edit it; I'd forgotten I'd only put it in for the Warpriest and didn't put it in for the SF. So, yeah, those should all be 2 higher. My bad.
The damage on both the SF and SF/MoMS is wrong. Dragon ferocity/style applies to every hit on a charge as there is only 1 hit. Something only the MoMS/SF can benefit from and which you do not use.
Neither require a Charge; I'm assuming a pure Sacred Fist is standing there using Dragon Style & Ferocity together without having charged (either by being within melee attack range or is using a quickened Blood Crow Strike). The to-hit is slightly lower, but not so much as to warrant special note.
And as for a SF/MoMS, Pummeling Charge lets him make a Pummeling Style full-attack at the end of a Charge, so I'm assuming that's part of it, thus the huge damage + charge.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
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Why does he not have magical knack.
Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice.
So, if he takes Magical Knack for his second Trait, then he's Pummeling Charging with Dragon Style/Ferocity active for:
2d8+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+5(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+6(Power Attack)+16(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x1 =
+
2d8+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+5(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+6(Power Attack)+12(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x6
=
288 avg DPR.
But then add in that the base Warpriest could take Heavy Hitter as its second Trait, bringing the damage up to:
292.5 + 9 = 301.5
Benefit: You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls made with unarmed attacks.
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Secondly you use two rounds of buffs which is unrealistic if your DPR crests the opposing equal level creature's HP.
Thirdly the destruction blessing (in addition to being excessive buffing) is very low on the level 12 damage rating for choice of blessings. Good, law, or Evil blessings a ton better in terms of DPR since they provide auto flanking as well.
For the two rounds of buffing: eh, just to be thorough. Horrendous overkill, yes, but thorough.
As for the Destruction Blessing: meh, it didn't matter too much as long as they were playing with the same toys; Destruction is easy to stat out because it's a hard number, and whatever the Sacred Fist can use for class-based toys like that, so can the Warpriest. If you want to take that out and replace it with something else, go ahead, but realize whatever you can change about 1 in terms of buffing, you can also do to the other (except for the Size thing, since being Large actually makes the base Warpriest weaker, but since the Warpriest got an Amulet with Agile, I thought it fair to assume the SF had perma-Enlarge on itself to counter).
Undone |
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
You're reading it wrong.
There is only 1 unarmed strike made during a pummeling style attack.You're actually disproving your own damage numbers with your quotes.
Pummeling dragon is unique because it's the only way to get 2x str on every single roll for a round (and probably 1 to 3 PA but this is table variance). This is where the major issue is coming from. Pummeling style is only 1 attack. As such it get's 2x damage to every single damage roll (or 2.5 with horn) while the others cannot replicate that.
The correct damage is
2d8+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+5(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+9(Power Attack)+16(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x7 =
If the SF/WP gave up quicken blessing until 13th then you could factor in horn of the criosphinx which increases the advantage the SF/MoMS has further since it applies on every roll.
I've many issues with the math you've presented including
1) You've used multiple buffs. Having only 1 swift buff should be considered the standard.
2) You've obviously built the natural weapon fighter the best you possibly can but have not done the same for the other two. (Not that you're not trying I just don't think you've played it)
3) You're ignoring the most important aspects of the pummeling dragon style, Horn+Dragon+Pummeling means 2.5 str on every roll, the base WP can't move and charge which means you'll use dimensional pounce like 1-2 time a day (since it takes 4 uses to do 2 increments) and charging over difficult terrain while retaining the full attack action.
4) You've also ignored the air blessing applying level electrical damage to every single hit of a pummeling attack (Which is higher than the destruction blessing).
5) You've ignored summons entirely.
The natural attack build is good but given how close you've presented the DPR and the lack of several major additions which can happen to your DPR you've reinforced pummeling dragon to me as the highest damage style.
chbgraphicarts |
Oh, I realized I goofed with the Damage Dice for a Sacred Fist 12
SACRED FIST 12
Pummeling Style
3d6+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+8(Power Attack)+8(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x7
=
283.5 avg damage, Pummeling Charge, all hit
Dragon Style
3d6+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+8(Power Attack)+16(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x1 48.5
+
3d6+5(Luck, Divine Power & Fate's Favored)+3(Enhancement, Greater Magic Weapon)+6(Morale, Destruction Blessing)+8(Power Attack)+12(Ability, Str, Dragon Style & Ferocity) x6
=
315.5 avg, no Pummeling Style (separate attacks), all hit.
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So, yeah, the SF with pure Dragon Style is still the heaviest damager, but with the worst chance for a Critical Hit.
Undone |
So, yeah, the SF with pure Dragon Style is still the heaviest damager, but with the worst chance for a Critical Hit.
Just so we're clear until errata'ed if you have 7 attacks and IC you've got 52.2% chance to critical hit the entire hit. That increases the dpr presented by you (which was low) from "270 avg. DPR, Pummeling Charge, all hit" to 410.859837 DPR.
chbgraphicarts |
chbgraphicarts wrote:So, yeah, the SF with pure Dragon Style is still the heaviest damager, but with the worst chance for a Critical Hit.Just so we're clear until errata'ed if you have 7 attacks and IC you've got 52.2% chance to critical hit the entire hit. That increases the dpr presented by you (which was low) from "270 avg. DPR, Pummeling Charge, all hit" to 410.859837 DPR.
I meant "non-critical" damage.
What's the crit chance with 9 attacks being thrown out?
Also, I'm not sure Air Blessing trumps Destruction:
Soaring Assault (major): At 10th level, you can touch an ally and give her the gift of flight for 1 minute (as fly). The ally gains a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. She gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your level. Whenever the ally succeeds at a charge attack while flying, that attack deals an amount of additional electricity damage equal to your level.
Destructive Attacks (minor): At 1st level, you can touch an ally and bless it with the power of destruction. For 1 minute, the ally gains [b]a morale bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to half your level (minimum 1).
Looking at them straight on, it looks like the Pummeling Charge attack (which, as you said before, is a single attack), would get +11/+12 Electricity Damage flat after you roll all the damage dice and calculate like normal
Destruction adds +5/6 to weapon damage rolls, meaning you get +5/6 for each weapon used in your normal Full Attack Action when making a Pummeling Charge, meaning +35 damage from SF, and +45 from WP.