Goblin Squad Member
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Note that you can delay the start of your prepaid training time until whenever you feel the features are in that need to be in for you to have fun. In many cases the option of self-delay may not be desirable, but in some cases it might be the best option. If you know you aren't going to have fun without feature X, wait until feature X is implemented before starting your character. After a few months the couple of weeks difference in XP won't seem like that big of a thing.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I kinda hope they delay a month. I mean really, why not? Open the game with the full map, companies, UI fixes, proto settlements, basic animations for most actions, full tool tip, stand in icons, etc...
Start off on the right foot with something the hard core fanbase can be proud of.
It would be for the best.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Keepers Pass is almost off the bottom of the map I am seriously considering doing the minimum gathering crafting and adventuring in the first week to gain some reasonable leveling achievements and then taking some time off until the full map. Mining a vast amount of ore that needs to then be moved 15 hexes seems pointless and probably dangerous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be for the best.I kinda hope they delay a month. I mean really, why not? Open the game with the full map, companies, UI fixes, proto settlements, basic animations for most actions, full tool tip, stand in icons, etc...
Start off on the right foot with something the hard core fanbase can be proud of.
I think the equation is :
(Minimum Viable Product + cashflow) x (about a year of 'EE') = 'Something the hard core fanbase can be proud of'
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just love the screaming upset folks. It's not like Goblinworks said that all dates are tentative - if things go better, we will start earlier, if problems crop up that are really bad, then we will start later. Oh wait, they did say that. :-)
After crashing like 12 times in the space of four or five hours this last weekend, I think delaying while they work that out seems pretty darn reasonable to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is for the best in the long run. That is what they (and we) want, a long run, right?
My only concern is that they may not fix the issues with the mats dropping that are needed for so many of the crafting roles. I would think that those are server side adjustments, but am not sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think everyone can agree. There is more that is needed for MVP then what is planned for the 22nd. I do not want my paid time burnt up on what is planned so far.
GW take as long as needed to have certain promised minimums in game.
Companies
Player Loot Drops
EE map
There is plenty more that should be in place for the start of EE.
Another important one is, we were supposed to have one alpha week with the EE build that everyone was invited to. Lets not forget that one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Note that you can delay the start of your prepaid training time until whenever you feel the features are in that need to be in for you to have fun. In many cases the option of self-delay may not be desirable, but in some cases it might be the best option. If you know you aren't going to have fun without feature X, wait until feature X is implemented before starting your character. After a few months the couple of weeks difference in XP won't seem like that big of a thing.
That sounds like a bad idea, there was a list of things promised for the start of EE. Things that brought in plenty of money to keep GW alive to make the MVP. We should have it in place before our paid time starts getting burnt up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even though I would like to start for "real", that is having the things I do have persistance, I am willing to wait even longer to have those things included.
They are important aspects to a signifigant percentage of those wanting to play the game. Those people are part of the hardcore fanbase too.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I just love the screaming upset folks. It's not like Goblinworks said that all dates are tentative - if things go better, we will start earlier, if problems crop up that are really bad, then we will start later. Oh wait, they did say that. :-)
After crashing like 12 times in the space of four or five hours this last weekend, I think delaying while they work that out seems pretty darn reasonable to me.
One guy complains. Not a big deal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One guy complains. Not a big deal.I just love the screaming upset folks. It's not like Goblinworks said that all dates are tentative - if things go better, we will start earlier, if problems crop up that are really bad, then we will start later. Oh wait, they did say that. :-)
After crashing like 12 times in the space of four or five hours this last weekend, I think delaying while they work that out seems pretty darn reasonable to me.
To be fair, Ryan has told us that he would never give a date until he was sure he could make the deadline.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm absolutely in favor of waiting longer to get a more finished product. Imho, companies, a full map and (proto-)settlements are a necessity for mvp. If they need more time to get it done, I'd like them to take that time much rather than throwing a less-than-viable-product on the market. I have waited for like 20 months since the second kickstarter and I can wait another one (or even more,) if needed... I think it's amazing what gw has accomplished on such a tiny budget compared to the industry's giants and feel they shouldn't make the mistake of rushing and stumbling shortly before the (first) finish line. Anything like the proposed 1/3 map with a few npc setlements should be part of an "extended alpha" if you will, NOT mvp.
I realize that money may well be running out and they need to secure some form of income source. Still, rushing the product to market unfinished is not the way to go...
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So, I had some stuff to post, but it's all already been said so many times and in so many ways, that I'm just going to say:
I agree with those quoted below, who are the majority of this thread. Please release with a truly VIABLE product. I'm happy to see a week delay, and I'd be more happy to see that week stretched into a month. Please don't launch with half of the MVP features missing with plans to add them in during the next 3 weeks. Don't waste time with stop-gaps. Just get it done and we'll be here waiting patiently (some less patient) when it's done to what we know you're capable of!
I'd really rather a solid launch on the 29th, with companies etc. Minimum Viable Product doesn't mean Minimum Functioning Product. There are a few crucial features that really need to be in the game for it to hit the Viable threshold.
I would also much rather see them hold off until companies can be included. To me that is necessary for it to be viable...
I kinda hope they delay a month. I mean really, why not? Open the game with the full map, companies, UI fixes, proto settlements, basic animations for most actions, full tool tip, stand in icons, etc...
Start off on the right foot with something the hard core fanbase can be proud of.
(I knew I'd like you Avari. ;-) )
I'm absolutely in favor of waiting longer to get a more finished product. Imho, companies, a full map and (proto-)settlements are a necessity for mvp. If they need more time to get it done, I'd like them to take that time much rather than throwing a less-than-viable-product on the market...
Actually, I think the best bet for them, is to wait until the 29th, roll out Encumbrance, Full Map, and Companies all together.
I agree, I would like to skip the whole "4 settlements, only 1/3rd of the map" phase, and wait a little longer...
I think everyone can agree. There is more that is needed for MVP then what is planned for the 22nd. I do not want my paid time burnt up on what is planned so far.
GW take as long as needed to have certain promised minimums in game.
Companies
Player Loot Drops
EE mapThere is plenty more that should be in place for the start of EE.
Another important one is, we were supposed to have one alpha week with the EE build that everyone was invited to. Lets not forget that one.
This one is probably the most important one posted of all (emphasis mine):
I'm also glad to see them holding off a bit on full release, and am generally a fan of later releases over all. The game I played thus far has a lot of places where I'd reasonably expect any but particularly dedicated fans to walk away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given a choice between opening EE a week earlier with a third of the map and NPC settlements only, or opening EE a week later with the full map and the protosettlements, is there anybody who would prefer the first option? I've seen a lot of support for skipping the partial release, and I'd be in that camp as well. If you prefer the plan as Ryan outlined it, please speak up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Keepers Pass is almost off the bottom of the map I am seriously considering doing the minimum gathering crafting and adventuring in the first week to gain some reasonable leveling achievements and then taking some time off until the full map. Mining a vast amount of ore that needs to then be moved 15 hexes seems pointless and probably dangerous.
Very much this. Ryan said, almost off-handedly, "Just don't die...", but can you imagine the impact if you're carrying a hard week's-worth of gathered materials when you have a crash in the wrong spot?
Some reconsideration needs to be done around the "you'll be gathering in the top third of the map, but some folks will have to move, possibly pursued by human wolves, much further than others to safeguard your supplies" issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't have minded starting EE tomorrow as long as I could be guaranteed there'd be no resets. So I wouldn't be able to store up materials in the bank and see "my" settlement - so what? I could find other stuff to do in the meantime, like getting achievements, socializing, gathering and crafting. The other stuff would arrive shortly.
One person's MVP criteria may not be the same as the next person's MVP criteria. Doesn't matter though since GW rules (hehe dual meanings there :D)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Keepers Pass is almost off the bottom of the map I am seriously considering doing the minimum gathering crafting and adventuring in the first week to gain some reasonable leveling achievements and then taking some time off until the full map. Mining a vast amount of ore that needs to then be moved 15 hexes seems pointless and probably dangerous.
Perhaps KoTC, TEO, T7V plus the others could all gather at once when our part of the map is ready then have a mass migration. 400+ players moving southeast would be a sight.
As Keepers Pass is almost off the bottom of the map I am seriously considering doing the minimum gathering crafting and adventuring in the first week to gain some reasonable leveling achievements and then taking some time off until the full map. Mining a vast amount of ore that needs to then be moved 15 hexes seems pointless and probably dangerous.Perhaps KoTC, TEO, T7V plus the others could all gather at once when our part of the map is ready then have a mass migration. 400+ players moving southeast would be a sight.
And would probably crash half the server...
As fun as that would be, I still think it's better for the game to launch a week later than force a week earlier. I'm not in a settlement yet, so I'm not affected one way or the other, and I just think it's better to have the game where EE was originally intended, even if it takes a few more weeks, or even a month or 2!
Personally, I'd be fine starting Early Enrollment with the 7.1 build, crashes and all, even on that little map. I want to begin making persistent changes to my Character(s).
Sorry, but I find that to be a very short-sighted and selfish decision. I understand that you've been in Alpha for a long time and are probably ready to begin leveling, but most of the player-base has likely not "burnt out" on testing, and even if I had, I'd rather just take a break for a while than see the game release too early and either fail or make a mess of things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Q1: What do alpha players think of the current status and how that translates to M.Viable.P. for EE?
Q2: One of the reasons GW may want an earlier release than later irrespective of full content/features implemenented could be to do with the server and network of having many more players in the game (it sounds like they're keen to raise the numbers but ensure the density is kept managed in the recent update. If so, would GW consider free training-time for those that take the plunge and jump in without the full features, listed as a compromise, or even x1/2 cost of training time?
Q3: I kinda want to know some spec info, as I need a new graphics card so this info to have before hand is useful to be prepared to download and run the client, any details on this before EE start?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Theoretically, won't we have another PVP option as soon as the player-run proto-settlements take over training from the NPC settlements? Reputation loss should become much less crippling when trainers don't automatically refuse to train low-reputation characters, and the attack-on-sight threshold of guards can be adjusted.Nope. The proto-settlements will not be run "by" the players, but more "on behalf" of the players, and will be much like the existing settlements, but with fewer choices than Sotterhill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I truly believe GW has a very engaging EE in their hands. I think this game will be a lot of fun with the economy, escalations and placeholder territory PvP. It will be simple, but good, like a slice of Brooklyn cheese pizza. You can make an ish load of money selling cheese pizza and tell me pepperoni will be available 6 months from now, the works in 2 years. But you won't make a dime selling undercooked pizza.
In other words, waiting to have some basic things in will make GW more money in the short term, not just the long.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I'd be fine starting Early Enrollment with the 7.1 build, crashes and all, even on that little map. I want to begin making persistent changes to my Character(s).Sorry, but I find that to be a very short-sighted and selfish decision. I understand that you've been in Alpha for a long time and are probably ready to begin leveling, but most of the player-base has likely not "burnt out" on testing, and even if I had, I'd rather just take a break for a while than see the game release too early and either fail or make a mess of things.
You're making an assumption about why I feel the way I feel, and that assumption is not accurate.
To put it another way, I'd have been quite happy to start Early Enrollment with the Alpha 1 build.
That said, it is an entirely selfish position, but that was intentional; I was expressing my personal desire, without regard to its impact on the game, Goblinworks, or other players. In general, I defer to Ryan's judgment on what's best for the game, Goblinworks, and other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally would be okay with the outlined plan because it sounds like item destruction isn't in yet. It's time to gather and socialize, work on achievements and get some xp.
I also realize that wasn't the vision of EE most people had two minutes before reading the blog.
It sounds GREAT as a last-stage-of-alpha plan, the one GW talked about when every first month backer gets to be in the last stage of alpha.
Launching EE with a full map and protosettlements (who doesn't want to run to see their settlement right away?) seems like an EE release orders of magnitude stronger that keeps the customers much happier.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is a proposal. When the map gets expanded to include the rest of the EE map allow a one time instant transport of our "Bank" contents to our designated settlement.
More stopgag stuff that can be avoided by just waiting a couple extra weeks. That's a head start on your gathering spreadsheets. It really is an unfair and unnecessary disadvantage to anybody who picked outside the radius. No crying in baseball, but when you couple it with all the other basic needs that will take another 3-4 weeks, dude, just wait another 3-4 weeks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a head start on your gathering spreadsheets. It really is an unfair and unnecessary disadvantage to anybody who picked outside the radius.
Yeah, no crying in baseball, but that's a very valid point.
Information on which hexes drop produce which resources will be extremely valuable, and gathering that information will likely be one of my top priorities when Early Enrollment starts. Not being able to gather that information for hexes near my future Settlement will largely eliminate its value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Add to that there's no guarantee that when Callambea magically and suddenly replaces Sotterhill, that hex's--and the others'--materials won't change as well. The devs might want to give us *some* in-game research to do.
Yeah, it would be kind of nice if the resource drops varied over time, sometimes suddenly :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Varying heat maps, as seen in Star Wars Galaxies and slot machine odds adjustments? One can hope.
(Note: Players wouldn't necessarily have to be able to see the heat maps to be affected by them. SWG players could scan for them. Casino gamblers can only intuit them by watching for clusters of winners.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As one of the folk who moved my vacation more times then I care to count. Am I disappointed I have to find something else to do on my week off. Yeah do I understand why and agree with the situation of course.
Am I disappointed that it likely when the game does go live I will get very limited time to play now instead of a whole week of free time to enjoy it. I be lying if I said I was not disappointed. Is it something I can live with of course it is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal feelings on the release is that they could release on the 15th of Sept and I would be fine with it. I don't have a concern about paying the subscription fee for a product that is not MVP. MVP hasn't been fully defined other than in broad terms. What I would like and that I believe we are getting with Alpha 8 is the server being up all week. At that moment, I would be willing to start paying a subscription fee. Even if my character was wiped. Even if all the systems aren't in for what some expect of MVP. The reason for this is that I'm here to play, with friends, with this community. Even if Alpha 7 or even Alpha 1 was what they decided was good enough for MVP I would still be happy to pay and participate. I know that isn't what most people think or feel. To me we already have more than I expected at this time. I'm perfectly happy to start with what we have and will be thrilled as reach new addition is added, each bug fixed. Doesn't effect me being willing and interested in playing what we have now (and even paying for it).
That is due to all of you. This community is the MVP for me. The game is just a place to host it, with more bells and whistles than the forums, and more being added weekly. If I can be in the game with all of you I'll be happy to wait until whenever they get around to adding the features as they can.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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My personal feelings on the release is that they could release on the 15th of Sept and I would be fine with it. I don't have a concern about paying the subscription fee for a product that is not MVP. MVP hasn't been fully defined other than in broad terms. What I would like and that I believe we are getting with Alpha 8 is the server being up all week. At that moment, I would be willing to start paying a subscription fee. Even if my character was wiped. Even if all the systems aren't in for what some expect of MVP. The reason for this is that I'm here to play, with friends, with this community. Even if Alpha 7 or even Alpha 1 was what they decided was good enough for MVP I would still be happy to pay and participate. I know that isn't what most people think or feel. To me we already have more than I expected at this time. I'm perfectly happy to start with what we have and will be thrilled as reach new addition is added, each bug fixed. Doesn't effect me being willing and interested in playing what we have now (and even paying for it).
That is due to all of you. This community is the MVP for me. The game is just a place to host it, with more bells and whistles than the forums, and more being added weekly. If I can be in the game with all of you I'll be happy to wait until whenever they get around to adding the features as they can.
Facebook is cheaper.
Honestly, I love the PFO community, but I am here for the game before anything else.
Saying that you are willing to play for a game not even viable ("I don't have a concern about paying the subscription fee for a product that is not MVP"), is in my opinion very hurtful for the entire industry.
There is a difference between being supportive, and being naive. We all understand that this game will involve with time, and that it needs to start earning dollars with a minimum viable product. But even though there isn't a clear definition of "MVP", I think it is wrong and irresponsible, to openly accept a paid product that you don't consider to be the vital minimum.
Sorry for taking again the a-hole role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal feelings on the release is that they could release on the 15th of Sept and I would be fine with it. I don't have a concern about paying the subscription fee for a product that is not MVP. MVP hasn't been fully defined other than in broad terms. What I would like and that I believe we are getting with Alpha 8 is the server being up all week. At that moment, I would be willing to start paying a subscription fee. Even if my character was wiped. Even if all the systems aren't in for what some expect of MVP. The reason for this is that I'm here to play, with friends, with this community. Even if Alpha 7 or even Alpha 1 was what they decided was good enough for MVP I would still be happy to pay and participate. I know that isn't what most people think or feel. To me we already have more than I expected at this time. I'm perfectly happy to start with what we have and will be thrilled as reach new addition is added, each bug fixed. Doesn't effect me being willing and interested in playing what we have now (and even paying for it).
That is due to all of you. This community is the MVP for me. The game is just a place to host it, with more bells and whistles than the forums, and more being added weekly. If I can be in the game with all of you I'll be happy to wait until whenever they get around to adding the features as they can.
Facebook is cheaper.
Honestly, I love the PFO community, but I am here for the game before anything else.
Saying that you are willing to play for a game not even viable ("I don't have a concern about paying the subscription fee for a product that is not MVP"), is in my opinion very hurtful for the entire industry.
There is a difference between being supportive, and being naive. We all understand that this game will involve with time, and that it needs to start earning dollars with a minimum viable product. But even though there isn't a clear definition of "MVP", I think it is wrong and irresponsible, to openly...
I'm not being naive about this actually. I know that for most MVP is all critical and not worth even paying for that. What I was saying is that for me, "MY" MVP has already been reached. For 99% of others that is most likely not the case. As "MY" MVP has been reached, I'm willing to pay and wait for it to evolve. That doesn't lessen the industry as there are those on the opposite end of the scale who would not be willing to pay even once it is OE.
I do get what you are saying though. I have little care for the expense. Facebook is cheaper indeed, but it isn't PFO, and when I'm talking about the community, I'm not just talking about any social Interaction, but those built around and for PFO. Again, MY MVP may not be what 99% of others would accept. IT is just what I would.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a difference between being supportive, and being naive.
With all due respect, who's being naive? The person who heard Ryan clearly explain that he was trying to attract folks who are willing to support the creation of a game that will be ready for the masses sometime in 2016, or the person who thinks MVP means "ready for the masses"?
I think it is wrong and irresponsible, to openly accept a paid product that you don't consider to be the vital minimum.
Within a few hours of playing Alpha 1, I realized that I did consider it to be a "vital minimum", and that I would be willing to pay for it in that state.
If your definition of "wrong and irresponsible" includes people genuinely pursuing their own interests with their own property, then you're going to be spend a lot of time being upset with people that you really have no business being upset with.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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With all due respect, who's being naive? The person who heard Ryan clearly explain that he was trying to attract folks who are willing to support the creation of a game that will be ready for the masses sometime in 2016, or the person who thinks MVP means "ready for the masses"?
MVP means MVP. Not alpha or beta.
Within a few hours of playing Alpha 1, I realized that I did consider it to be a "vital minimum", and that I would be willing to pay for it in that state.
If your definition of "wrong and irresponsible" includes people genuinely pursuing their own interests with their own property, then you're going to be spend a lot of time being upset with people that you really have no business being upset with.
I don't criticise people who thinks that the game is ready, only people saying "I don't care if the game isn't ready I will pay anyway".
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Goblin Squad Member
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With all due respect, who's being naive? The person who heard Ryan clearly explain that he was trying to attract folks who are willing to support the creation of a game that will be ready for the masses sometime in 2016, or the person who thinks MVP means "ready for the masses"?MVP means MVP. Not alpha or beta.
I don't criticise people who thinks that the game is ready, only people saying "I don't care if the game isn't ready I will pay anyway".Within a few hours of playing Alpha 1, I realized that I did consider it to be a "vital minimum", and that I would be willing to pay for it in that state.
If your definition of "wrong and irresponsible" includes people genuinely pursuing their own interests with their own property, then you're going to be spend a lot of time being upset with people that you really have no business being upset with.
To be fair, I feel the game is ready for me. I didn't state it that way. I would still pay to support it and keep it alive even in it's current state and even if I didn't think it was ready to help it get there. Most wouldn't, but then again, we have all paid for the Kickstarter or EE, so we have in fact already paid. If you feel they shouldn't count that purchased time against our accounts until what you consider is MVP, that is totally fine. As I said, I am fine with paying now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Keepers Pass is almost off the bottom of the map I am seriously considering doing the minimum gathering crafting and adventuring in the first week to gain some reasonable leveling achievements and then taking some time off until the full map. Mining a vast amount of ore that needs to then be moved 15 hexes seems pointless and probably dangerous.Perhaps KoTC, TEO, T7V plus the others could all gather at once when our part of the map is ready then have a mass migration. 400+ players moving southeast would be a sight.
That is probably a plan.
Though to be honest having a slowish first week or two to get the feel of things also appeals to me.
I am happy either way, but my play strategy will be different if we are on a 1/3 map.
The main difference is settlements close to Thornkeep will have a headstart on resources, but it is only a week so maybe not enough of a head start to matter.