Goblin Squad Member
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Very disappointing news that the barebones MVP is going to be even further cut back. Yes, the small hardcore base will not complain, but it's not a good sign IMHO.
Just delay the damn thing for another month. The recent survey shows overwhelming support for that.
We might be willing to support it, but Goblinworks' investors (as opposed to Kickstarter supporters) and their budget might not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We might be willing to support it, but Goblinworks' investors (as opposed to Kickstarter supporters) and their budget might not.Very disappointing news that the barebones MVP is going to be even further cut back. Yes, the small hardcore base will not complain, but it's not a good sign IMHO.
Just delay the damn thing for another month. The recent survey shows overwhelming support for that.
You know what that calls for? A kickstarter to delay the kickstarter!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Get what you're saying, but if the budget is that tight that a 1 month delay would put the project in jeopardy it doesn't bode well for the future...We might be willing to support it, but Goblinworks' investors (as opposed to Kickstarter supporters) and their budget might not.Very disappointing news that the barebones MVP is going to be even further cut back. Yes, the small hardcore base will not complain, but it's not a good sign IMHO.
Just delay the damn thing for another month. The recent survey shows overwhelming support for that.
The Cliffs of Dover flightsim, arguably the best combat flight sim ever created failed because the investors forced it onto the market too early and the resultant negative criticism on forums meant no-one purchased it even though the game was still 95% playable and making great progress.
Choices are sometimes pushed by investors not the devs themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very disappointing news that the barebones MVP is going to be even further cut back. Yes, the small hardcore base will not complain, but it's not a good sign IMHO.
Just delay the damn thing for another month. The recent survey shows overwhelming support for that.
1 week. How is that not a good sign? They are willing to say that they need to do a little extra before going ahead instead of just dumping it out there. It was only recently that they even announced when they wanted to start EE.
Sheesh. *drama*
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be a good sign if EE was not payed. As it is it's a really bad sign.
Crowd-forging and -funding is a really good idea but only it it does not take advantage of people's desire to play the game they are looking for as early as possible ESPECIALLY if there will be no rollback after the early release.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's pretty simple, if you don't feel like the game launch on 22nd is up to scratch, then don't spend your xp-time on it or even just pop one month's worth.
Personally I'm fine with others jumping in and myself jumping in later, given the current update.
I'm sure the devs appreciate that but I doubt they'll cheerfully announce that option: They want players both playing (working the game code) and paying (paying them to work!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very disappointing news that the barebones MVP is going to be even further cut back. Yes, the small hardcore base will not complain, but it's not a good sign IMHO.
Just delay the damn thing for another month. The recent survey shows overwhelming support for that.
1 week. How is that not a good sign? They are willing to say that they need to do a little extra before going ahead instead of just dumping it out there. It was only recently that they even announced when they wanted to start EE.
Sheesh. *drama*
I don't think you read my message correctly.
Tbh, staggering probably makes the most sense. Sure a lot of peeps might be a bit disappointed not to jump in on day 1 along with everyone else because they want to wait for the full MVP features to be in, but it balances the various necessities this way I imagine.
Just hold off and dive in a bit later. That's what I plan to do.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Very disappointing news that the barebones MVP is going to be even further cut back. Yes, the small hardcore base will not complain, but it's not a good sign IMHO.
Just delay the damn thing for another month. The recent survey shows overwhelming support for that.
"The small hardcore base will not complain", if the game sucks on day one. The large audience will, and PFO doesn't need bad press on day one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I kinda hope they delay a month. I mean really, why not? Open the game with the full map, companies, UI fixes, proto settlements, basic animations for most actions, full tool tip, stand in icons, etc...
Start off on the right foot with something the hard core fanbase can be proud of.
I'm a bit late to the commenting - I've been working fairly insane hours so that I can take time off for the first week of EE - but the above is my preference as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a bit late to the commenting - I've been working fairly insane hours so that I can take time off for the first week of EE - but the above is my preference as well.I kinda hope they delay a month. I mean really, why not? Open the game with the full map, companies, UI fixes, proto settlements, basic animations for most actions, full tool tip, stand in icons, etc...
Start off on the right foot with something the hard core fanbase can be proud of.
I agree with Avari in Deianira but I will support Goblinworks and this project either way. However, I think it is definitely missing some core functions that make a MMORPG playable (like being able to click other players...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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"The small hardcore base will not complain", if the game sucks on day one. The large audience will, and PFO doesn't need bad press on day one.
1) Anyone who thinks the game sucks will complain. Not everyone has the same definition of "sucks" as you do. I've never played another game, and I'm enjoying this one immensely. I'm almost certainly not the primary target audience, but I'm definitely one of the secondary target audiences.
2) Ryan and Lisa aside, very few people here know what PFO needs or doesn't need.
3) Pointing out specific issues, even repeatedly, and simply repeating that the game sucks are two different things. There's nothing wrong with not liking what they are doing, and everyone is absolutely entitled to have, and to air, their opinion. But try to understand that every time someone bad-mouths the game in general, it is contributing a little more to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now if having the game fail and prove them right is what will make someone feel good, that's a perfectly valid strategy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is definitely missing some core functions that make a MMORPG playable (like being able to click other players...)
I don't actually understand this comment. The only time I've failed to select a player by clicking them is when they're moving too fast for my fumble-fingers. Could you expand on what you're saying here?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Caldeathe, this is your first MMO, right? That gives you a perspective that is both very fresh and also envy-worthy. Most people lost their MMO-virginity years ago.
Some people may be jaded here, but anyone that has played a few MMO's before will probably agree that targeting in PFO still needs a lot of work. Targeting up close works, however at a distance I can only target with Tabbing.
Pretty much every MMO has a lot of targeting options: Target Previous NPC, Target Previous Groupmember, Target Next NPC, Target Next Group member, Cycle All, Alternate between current and last target, or even have a different Defensive and Offensive Target (much wanted, thank you Vanguard). There are many more subtleties to targeting: for instance you can have hard targets, or soft targets (the NPC or player that is in front of you), with toggles that you can set as to how targets should be selected. Like "Automatically acquire new target when current target is dead". Very handy in games where you fight a lot of mobs at the same time.
In PvP, targeting becomes even more important. Especially when an accidental hit to a party member tanks your rep. :) But I am sure that will be solved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By Christmas...(around the time we have to start paying)
This game will be vastly different, WoT might be over, maybe not? Although everything they have stated that will be in during month 1, will be in by then.
They will also have a ton of the kinks ironed out, bugs fixed, and code optimized. At this point, they will probably be working on implementing bulk resources and PoIs, while we will be sitting pretty at around level 10, in our mini settlements, attempting to craft T2 Gear...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is definitely missing some core functions that make a MMORPG playable (like being able to click other players...)I don't actually understand this comment. The only time I've failed to select a player by clicking them is when they're moving too fast for my fumble-fingers. Could you expand on what you're saying here?
A simple quick expansion of the statement you made yourself.
Failed to select a player because they were moving too fast.
That will cause failure in PVP, that should not be the cause of failure. It is a failure in coding, which effects the players in a non meaningful way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is definitely missing some core functions that make a MMORPG playable (like being able to click other players...)I don't actually understand this comment. The only time I've failed to select a player by clicking them is when they're moving too fast for my fumble-fingers. Could you expand on what you're saying here?A simple quick expansion of the statement you made yourself.
Failed to select a player because they were moving too fast.
That will cause failure in PVP, that should not be the cause of failure. It is a failure in coding, which effects the players in a non meaningful way.
An alternative point of view is that it isn't so much a failure of coding as it is a failure of the player to adapt to a new and different environment, and that failure is indeed meaningful.
The nature of the environment necessarily trumps player expectations. Players who fail to adapt may prefer to believe it is the environment that is faulty when they import habits formed elsewhere without regard to the fact that the games are different, but that preferred belief will not replace adaptation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is needed for MVP, and what we were told would be here... Some will be in Alpha 8 I am sure, but I bet most will not.
Player targeting
Loot drops
Key bindings
tool tips
Some form of non arena pvp
the EE map
one week of everyone participating in the Alpha, the EE build
decent NPC loot drops, right now its mainly fighter and wizard
I am sure the list can go on and on
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Goblin Squad Member
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...which effects the players in a non meaningful way.I'd've expected to hear you say that players being affected by targeting issues, related to coding or anything else, is very meaningful.
Nah, targeting a player right now is difficult at best if you are moving.
There is no reason that there is not a way to cycle through friendly and neutral Players with keys. That is a standard in any game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it is definitely missing some core functions that make a MMORPG playable (like being able to click other players...)I don't actually understand this comment. The only time I've failed to select a player by clicking them is when they're moving too fast for my fumble-fingers. Could you expand on what you're saying here?A simple quick expansion of the statement you made yourself.
Failed to select a player because they were moving too fast.
That will cause failure in PVP, that should not be the cause of failure. It is a failure in coding, which effects the players in a non meaningful way.
An alternative point of view is that it isn't so much a failure of coding as it is a failure of the player to adapt to a new and different environment, and that failure is indeed meaningful.
The nature of the environment necessarily trumps player expectations. Players who fail to adapt may prefer to believe it is the environment that is faulty when they import habits formed elsewhere without regard to the fact that the games are different, but that preferred belief will not replace adaptation.
There is nothing meaningful about being required to click a very small area on a PC to target them. If you can target monsters with a tab button push, then you should be able to target players as easily. If that is not done, then it will be a game of who targets first... If that is the game we are going to play, I can adapt to it... but it will be the game of who is the most aggressive and my guess is... most people do not want to play that game.
I understand your point of view. You do not care about targeting players, and I get that. Just because that is your point of view, does not mean that player targeting should not change.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...which effects the players in a non meaningful way.I'd've expected to hear you say that players being affected by targeting issues, related to coding or anything else, is very meaningful.
I'm pretty sure he means in the connotation of meaningful player interaction... that's not it.
Except Cal was saying he lacked the dexterity to move the mouse in a standard MMO pvp manner, which I think Xeen misunderstood.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dr. Prox. Don't forget to spay and neuter your pets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is nothing meaningful about being required to click a very small area on a PC to target them. If you can target monsters with a tab button push, then you should be able to target players as easily. If that is not done, then it will be a game of who targets first... If that is the game we are going to play, I can adapt to it... but it will be the game of who is the most aggressive and my guess is... most people do not want to play that game.
I understand your point of view. You do not care about targeting players, and I get that. Just because that is your point of view, does not mean that player targeting should not change.
Nope, sorry, you missed my point of view, whether because you expected me to be other than I am or because I failed to speak clearly.
I do understand it is important to be able to target other players. My point was that our habits and assumptions that are legacies of other games we have played should be left at the door. They may well work in PFO but they may not work either, and that isn't necessarily a fault in the coding nor in the design. The failure can very well be the players' inability to adapt to a new environment that looks like but is different from what they are used to.
Much will be the same but if there is something that works differently let's not just assume the coding is flawed or the design bad: Let us recognize that it is different, not what we expected. Talk about it, point it out to ensure it is working as intended but try to adapt. If it is difficult to adapt to then that is what should be reported, not these generalized blanket insults to the code. Spew is not constructive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, it is very meaningfull when players start dropping the game, because a severe lack of simple functionality is being sold as a "quality" of the game environment.
"Come play PFO: we have the worst targeting system out there! You will love the challenge!"
Seriously. :rolleyes:
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again, if this is a game of "whoever targets first wins," which is what we will likely have now. People will not hesitate to target someone as soon as they appear on the minimap... just in case. It will also lead to people getting into fights much more quickly.
I am game, but I doubt everyone else is.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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1) Anyone who thinks the game sucks will complain. Not everyone has the same definition of "sucks" as you do. I've never played another game, and I'm enjoying this one immensely. I'm almost certainly not the primary target audience, but I'm definitely one of the secondary target audiences.
2) Ryan and Lisa aside, very few people here know what PFO needs or doesn't need.
3) Pointing out specific issues, even repeatedly, and simply repeating that the game sucks are two different things. There's nothing wrong with not liking what they are doing, and everyone is absolutely entitled to have, and to air, their opinion. But try to understand that every time someone bad-mouths the game in general, it is contributing a little more to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now if having the game fail and prove them right is what will make someone feel good, that's a perfectly valid strategy.
You are missing the course of the conversation.
Game must be realised September 15.
CEO of Game, Decides to push back the release to the 22.
Player X complains that nobody cares if the game isn't ready.
I say that hardcore fans don't care maybe, but most people do.
Essentially, you are angry with me because I am supporting GW's decision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Essentially, you are angry with me because I am supporting GW's decision.
I am not angry with you at all. I think your way or wording things is doing some damage to the future of the game.
[edit: to be specific, I think every time you write the words "The game sucks" (which is only true for some people) you are doing some damage to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find myself agreeing with Xeen (not unprecedented, but not all that common either).
I have yet to play Alpha (been away from PFO for a month and looking forward to logging in tomorrow for the first time), so my opinion is worth exactly that much (ie that of someone who has no experience) and no more, but there do seem to be some systems "missing" from what I have read. I'd rather the game was truly at MVP stage when EE is launched than rushed out simply because. The first impression made WILL count. I'd rather that first impression were better, even if that means it comes later. Of course, I may just be talking out of my uninformed you-know-where, and change my mind tomorrow after trying stuff.
Mark me down as another who'd prefer a month's wait if that's what it takes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do not underestimate the power, and responsibility, of the written word regardless who says or writes it. Many people will believe the things they expect to be true and disbelieve what they do not expect to be true and simply assume the case.
It can be said that facts are merely accidental where beliefs are the Truth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly don't think that enough people give a crap about what I say, to damage the game. :p
And yet, there are people who will value your opinion all the more because you don't feel it's important and aren't afraid to say what you think.
I put enough value on it to care. I've never said you're wrong to feel the way you do, and won't. I'd be perfectly happy if the pushed the game back a month (Though I am one of those who booked time off work (twice, actually, having bet on them pushing something out for Gencon)).
I'd be happier if you chose a different way of putting it, but that's mostly my problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By Christmas...(around the time we have to start paying)
This game will be vastly different, WoT might be over, maybe not? Although everything they have stated that will be in during month 1, will be in by then.
They will also have a ton of the kinks ironed out, bugs fixed, and code optimized. At this point, they will probably be working on implementing bulk resources and PoIs, while we will be sitting pretty at around level 10, in our mini settlements, attempting to craft T2 Gear...
Worth holding onto that thought, rough seas ahoooy!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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to be specific, I think every time you write the words "The game sucks" (which is only true for some people) you are doing some damage to the game.Never wrote "The game sucks", only "if the game sucks". But I will try to use more neutral words.
I can easily assure you that you said that in English far better than I could in French.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...which effects the players in a non meaningful way.I'd've expected to hear you say that players being affected by targeting issues, related to coding or anything else, is very meaningful.
Just a guess, but it might have had something to do with whom he was having a hard time clicking...
