Everyone who thinks the arcanist is overpowered


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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You're all correct but not for the right reasons.

Everything with 9th level spell casting is overpowered.

Relative to other 9th level wizard progression casters however...

Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Shaman, and to a lesser extent Master Summoner/Synth summoner this class is nearly strictly inferior.

It get's LESS spells per day than all 5 of the prepared casters.
It has INFERIOR access to Shaman/Druid/Cleric.
Several of these have natural spont casting, all of them can get it via feats.
All of the above have spells they can default to.
All of the above can leave open slots to fill as the day goes on.

The arcanist is not broken. In fact I'd go so far as to say the arcanist is strictly worse than a wizard.

Keep in mind strictly worse than a wizard is not a bad spot to be in. It's a very powerful spot to be in but it hasn't in ANY way increased the power ceiling on prepared arcane casters given the ways to get spont casting.

The arcanist is a FANTASTIC CLASS ladies and gents, but if we're going on raw power wizard, druid, cleric, witch, shaman and archetyped summoners are superior.

Sovereign Court

Having less spells per day isn't really an issue and has never been an issue in any kind of games. At least if you use your spell slots efficiently, one color spray is still one color spray, at level 1, this destroys any kind of encounters.

I don't think that Arcanist is overpowered but well I can imagine that people will find ways to maximize the cheese with right kind of combos. I'm playing an Arcanist in a future campaign, will give feedback of what happens in game.


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Delayed spell levels is enough for the wizard to still be cool.

Scarab Sages

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The arcanist is overpowered for tables that play with a 15 minute adventuring day.

The arcanist has a crippling weakness at tables that play 7-8 encounters between rest periods.

Given this, different groups will have vastly differing experiences.

@Eltacolibre: last wizard I played encountered almost exclusively undead and constructs until about 3rd level. Color Spray had about the same effectiveness as throwing wet noodles. This was a PFS wizard, playing sanctioned content.


Artanthos wrote:

The arcanist is overpowered for tables that play with a 15 minute adventuring day.

The arcanist has a crippling weakness at tables that play 7-8 encounters between rest periods.

Given this, different groups will have vastly differing experiences.

@Eltacolibre: last wizard I played encountered almost exclusively undead and constructs until about 3rd level. Color Spray had about the same effectiveness as throwing wet noodles. This was a PFS wizard, playing sanctioned content.

The 15 minute adventuring day is more of a personal game issue. There are dozens of over powered classes if you do 15 minutes a day.

As for that you didn't have grease? Or buff spells? That's more of a personal choice to impose crippling overspecialization on a character. You should be able to go through the major issues

Mindless, SR, DR, Resistances, Immune to SR spells (golems), Immunities, flight, spellcasters, High fort, high will, high ref, high all saves.

You can't handle all that at 1 but grease, enlarge person, and color spray cover nearly all that at level 1.

Quote:
Delayed spell levels is enough for the wizard to still be cool.

Honestly this alone (being better at every single odd level) is enough for me to believe the arcanist worse than the wizard. Nothing is worth delaying your primary class feature for.

Quote:
Having less spells per day isn't really an issue and has never been an issue in any kind of games. At least if you use your spell slots efficiently, one color spray is still one color spray, at level 1, this destroys any kind of encounters.

About that 4th or 5th encounter when you stand there and the wizard wins it outright. Or was this a case where the GM let you sleep in a dungeon crawl and nothing attacked you for no reason, or the GM declined to give you a ticking clock on the adventure which pressured you into continuing so you can do 1 encounter at a time blow your entire list and then rest.

Scarab Sages

Undone wrote:
=As for that you didn't have grease? Or buff spells?

Of course I did, but your statement was:

Quote:
one color spray is still one color spray, at level 1, this destroys any kind of encounters.

Patently false. There are entire categories of low level encounters that simply ignore Color Spray.

Walking into a dungeon with multiple color sprays memorized is seldom a good idea. A first level wizard won't have more than one memorized unless he knows EXACTLY what he is facing and even then opponents do make saving throws once in a while.

Sovereign Court

I run out of spells sometime but it's pretty darn rare and no we usually don't rest between encounters. The color spray example is only to take care of waves of mooks, when it would take too long to fight them round per round. I recalled once taking down the "boss" of the dungeon with color spray at level 1 but my dm just had a very bad saving throw roll, my intent was only to take down the surrounding mooks.

I mostly tend to play Battlefield control wizard type of thing, so usually just place one or two useful spells when I can to end an encounter, if given the chance. If you are playing a blaster wizard that's of course another story. Looking at the Arcanist, I wouldn't recommend to go the blaster way with even less spells than the wizard.

edit: As frankly my weapon of choice at level 1 is a light crossbow on a wizard.


Eltacolibre wrote:

Having less spells per day isn't really an issue and has never been an issue in any kind of games. At least if you use your spell slots efficiently, one color spray is still one color spray, at level 1, this destroys any kind of encounters.

I don't think that Arcanist is overpowered but well I can imagine that people will find ways to maximize the cheese with right kind of combos. I'm playing an Arcanist in a future campaign, will give feedback of what happens in game.

Quote:


Patently false. There are entire categories of low level encounters that simply ignore Color Spray.

Walking into a dungeon with multiple color sprays memorized is seldom a good idea. A first level wizard won't have more than one memorized unless he knows EXACTLY what he is facing and even then opponents do make saving throws once in a while.

I did not say that.


Artanthos wrote:
Walking into a dungeon with multiple color sprays memorized is seldom a good idea. A first level wizard won't have more than one memorized unless he knows EXACTLY what he is facing and even then opponents do make saving throws once in a while.

Uh... Did you just forget that this thread is about the Arcanist? The Arcanist prepares a spell once and then gets to use it as many times as she wants (up to her spells per day limit of course). So you use one slot on Color Spray and can cast it three times if you like or end up using Enlarge Person or Grease instead.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When I first read it I thought "What!? They can get a metamagic feat or item creation feat every other level in addition to their own general feats and class abilities!? That's totes broken!"

Then I found out they could only do that once each, not once every other level.

But I've seen other people claiming the same thing, so I'm putting it here so they too can realize the truth.


Their daily longevity is helped somewhat by taking Expanded Preparation:

Quote:


Expanded Preparation

Prerequisite: Arcanist level 1st.

Benefit: You gain an extra spell slot of the highest level
you can cast. This is in addition to the number of spell
slots you can normally prepare from your spellbook. You
can instead add two spell slots, but both of these spells
must be at least 1 level lower than the highest-level spell
you can cast as an arcanist. You must choose which benefit
you gain when you take this feat.

Special: You can take this feat up to three times. Each
time you do, you can choose either benefit.


The class is inferior to the wizard, but it's casting method is still very nice to have.

Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters got seriously buffed with this book with all the new magic items they have access to.

Runes of Power and spell Lattices are welcome additions to the repertoire of spontaneous casters.

I also like that the class has a witch archetype, giving us our first peek at a spontaneous witch.


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The biggest problem with the Arcanist is that it is strictly better than the Sorcerer, which it effectively obsoletes. The new Exploiter Wizard archetype is probably better than a straight Arcanist, but only by way of stealing an Arcanist's strongest exploits while retaining faster casting progression. Some of the exploits are simply too strong for what they cost to use:

- Counterspelling/Improved: I think this one is obvious. At least after level 11, it is brokenly potent when facing enemy casters. Counter Drain just makes it worse. Note that this is even better for the Exploiter Wizard, who is a spell level higher half of the time. The argument that this won't be effective against a BBEG Wizard's highest-level spells is swell, but how much time does a party spend being targeted by specifically these spells? Against all lower-level enemy casters (and there are potentially quite a lot of these) and against all classes which feature secondary casting ability (regular and anti Paladins, Rangers, Bloodragers, etc.), this ability is insta-win. I know how this will play itself out. DMs who do not ban the class, outright, will simply stop sending these kinds of enemies at the Arcanist, because they won't present a challenge, anymore. The ability is so strong that it distorts a part of the game. DMs can "fix" it with respect to the Arcanist, but only through metagaming and fiat.

- Potent Magic: essentially Spell Penetration or the effects of both Spell Focus and Greater SF on any school, on demand, is just stupidly potent and flexible.

- Dimensional Slide: essentially makes the Arcanist invulnerable to grapples, entangles, etc. It is supernatural and so has no components, and can be done as a move action. It's a get out of jail free card. Come on.

- School Understanding: can be used to take the two best, non-level-dependent 1st level Wizard school abilities, Flexible Evocation and Forewarned. These ability to change energy types on the fly or get 3 + CHA rerolls/day is extremely potent. These were balanced for the Wizard schools by other drawbacks (Evoker's other school powers are crap, Diviner gets the worst bonus spells), but what balances it for an Arcanist who takes this exploit?

--------------------------------------------------

An efficient Arcanist build combines extreme flexibility (Quick Study), excellent offensive ability (Potent Magic), great defense ability (Dimensional Slide plus Counterspelling), and other powerful abilities (Forewarned or Versatile Evocation, for example) selected from a large and varied smorgasbord of possibilities. This is before we get into one-level Sorcerer dips with complete bloodline powers, etc.

It's too much, all at once. The class has no weaknesses if played intelligently. It can always find the right spell for the job, cast it at a DC bonus, escape grapples, entangles and such with ease, and throw in things like changing elemental energy type or getting a bunch of rerolls/day on top of that. And these aren't even "exploit" builds...just the efficient options I can come up with after owning the book for one day.


It does not obsolete the sorcerer.

It does not obsolete the wizard.

It does not obsolete the witch.

There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.


master_marshmallow wrote:


There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.

Counterspell without the readied action?


Nicos wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:


There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.
Counterspell without the readied action?
Counterspell Subschool of Abjuration wrote:
Counterspell Mastery (Su): At 6th level, you gain Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat. You may attempt to counterspell an opponent’s spell once per day as an immediate action (instead of a readied action). You must use a spell at least one level higher than the spell being countered to use this ability. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 levels beyond 6th.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:


There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.
Counterspell without the readied action?
Counterspell Subschool of Abjuration wrote:
Counterspell Mastery (Su): At 6th level, you gain Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat. You may attempt to counterspell an opponent’s spell once per day as an immediate action (instead of a readied action). You must use a spell at least one level higher than the spell being countered to use this ability. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 levels beyond 6th.

Ok.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Absolutely nothing makes up for the slower spell progression.


When they designed this class, I'm pretty sure they went through the list of cool sorcerer and wizard abilities and let you pick and choose them to go off your pooled resource.

That way some people might actually play them instead of a Teleporter, Diviner, or Admixer for once.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

They would make a decent knock off of the warmage, if built that way.


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Some Other Guy wrote:
Absolutely nothing makes up for the slower spell progression.

Tell the wizard, druid, cleric, shaman, witch that they're worse than arcanist at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 and then laugh.

Considering that full wizard progression casters are strictly better half of the game and approximately equal the rest of the time I'd honestly say the class is well designed because it's liked but it's anything but more powerful than the standard casters.


This is pretty unrelated to the op bit but.

Since the playttest version and they announcing they wanted to up the direct damage exploint thingies. and allow you to eat spells for more points (Assume yo ucan eat your own daily spells for points?)
I've really wanted to make a supportish guy who uses those for weapons haha. Now not at all powerfulc compared to the spells of course, but for a game taht won't go super high level I think it would be beyond fun.

And doing something like that SLA based person, was nearly impossible before that class. Outside of Eldritch Blast. Which I'd likely pick up.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.

How about access any spell in your spellbook (so potentially any spell in the game) within a single round a theoretically unlimited number of times per day (without some sort of obvious abuse of the rules)?

How about counterspell a spell up to your maximum spell level, and do it a theoretically unlimited number of times per day?

The biggest problem with the Arcanist is that he gets a large number of powerful benefits with very few drawbacks. He is better than the Sorcerer in an absolute sense on the strength of his spell versatility, alone. He'll also be a hell of a lot less boring to play, not constantly casting the same spells over and over again.

In competition with the Wizard, the Arcanist is very close in terms of power, but requires much less intelligence and preparation on the part of the player to reach his potential. The major mitigating factor of the Wizard's awesome cosmic power has always been that playing one well required a certain amount of smarts and system mastery on the part of the player. Now, with the Arcanist, anyone can derp their way to arcane dominance. Super. Just what the game needed.


....

How about we actually let some play data decide if it's uber overpowered, rather than judging a book by it's cover?

I get a knee-jerk reaction, but for Buddha sakes! The books has been out for, what, around a week now? Accept the fact that hard codified evidence has yet to pour in from a MASS pool of experience, and admit the possibility that all these UBER-OP options might actually play out sub-par at the table!

Is it too much to ask that people have a little patience!?

All you ever heard about Mystic Theurge was "OMFG BROKE!" when it was announced. How many people ever actually played one and dominated the game in the whole of 3.X?


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master_marshmallow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:


There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.
Counterspell without the readied action?
Counterspell Subschool of Abjuration wrote:
Counterspell Mastery (Su): At 6th level, you gain Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat. You may attempt to counterspell an opponent’s spell once per day as an immediate action (instead of a readied action). You must use a spell at least one level higher than the spell being countered to use this ability. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 levels beyond 6th.

once per day... and at 20th 4 times per day... not nearly as good as the arcanist who can perpetually go on as long as he has the required spell per day (Counter Drain is really annoying at higher levels)


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the secret fire wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.
How about access any spell in your spellbook (so potentially any spell in the game) within a single round a theoretically unlimited number of times per day (without some sort of obvious abuse of the rules)?

This is false, as been demonstrated multiple times, unless you are investing in items specifically to break your spellbook out mid combat, it takes at least 3 rounds to change a spell in combat, rendering it a pretty useless ability in combat. The number of times per day is limited, especially when you consider all of his class features are based on the same resource pool.

Quote:
How about counterspell a spell up to your maximum spell level, and do it a theoretically unlimited number of times per day?

Ummm, you can't do that with the Arcanist because you still need to spend a spell slot of the level you are trying to counter or higher...

Quote:
The biggest problem with the Arcanist is that he gets a large number of powerful benefits with very few drawbacks. He is better than the Sorcerer in an absolute sense on the strength of his spell versatility, alone. He'll also be a hell of a lot less boring to play, not constantly casting the same spells over and over again.

Sorcerers actually get some nice buffs in this book, the Spell Lattice in particular is very cost effective and allows you access to a spell as if it was a spell known or spell prepared.

Spell Lattice wrote:

A spell lattice is a block of transparent crystal, internally

etched with a three-dimensional representation of a spell.
This spell is chosen when the item is created (the contained
spell determines the school of the lattice’s aura). When a
spell lattice is wielded by a spontaneous spellcaster who
has the spell contained within it on her class spell list, she
can use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of
her spells known. When an arcanist holds a spell lattice, as
long as she has the contained spell on her class spell list,
she can use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one
of her spells currently prepared.
A spellcaster who uses a spellbook or formula book can
copy the spell from a spell lattice as if it were a scroll. Doing
so expends the spell from the spell lattice.
Quote:
In competition with the Wizard, the Arcanist is very close in terms of power, but requires much less intelligence and preparation on the part of the player to reach his potential. The major mitigating factor of the Wizard's awesome cosmic power has always been that playing one well required a certain amount of smarts and system mastery on the part of the player. Now, with the Arcanist, anyone can derp their way to arcane dominance. Super. Just what the game needed.

This is demonstrably false. Less resources in a day, and still requiring system mastery to pilot properly, the Arcanist is still weaker than the wizard.

It also has delayed spellcasting and less spells compared to the wizard.

It gets cool abilities, but the wizard is still king.

Let's not even look at the Exploiter Wizard archetype, which actually does the things you are worried about the arcanist doing.


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K177Y C47 wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Nicos wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:


There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.
Counterspell without the readied action?
Counterspell Subschool of Abjuration wrote:
Counterspell Mastery (Su): At 6th level, you gain Improved Counterspell as a bonus feat. You may attempt to counterspell an opponent’s spell once per day as an immediate action (instead of a readied action). You must use a spell at least one level higher than the spell being countered to use this ability. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 levels beyond 6th.
once per day... and at 20th 4 times per day... not nearly as good as the arcanist who can perpetually go on as long as he has the required spell per day (Counter Drain is really annoying at higher levels)
master_marshmallow wrote:

It does not obsolete the sorcerer.

It does not obsolete the wizard.

It does not obsolete the witch.

There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.

Shadow Lodge

Haven't had experience with this class[or even read the finalized version], but I'm fairly certain that this won't replace any sorcerer or wizard plans I have. My understanding[And please, correct me if this is wrong] is that they get roughly the same amount of spells/day as a druid[4 of each level, slightly lower at the end], and get to prepare spells to cast sponataneously still, but doesn't get additional spells/day based off of Int. So, yeah, its probably OP. But thats more an issue of spells being OP then Arcanists being Op.

Grand Lodge

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Salutations.

Over the last four years, I've GM'd nearly a dozen campaigns and dozens of PFS games. In my home games, like most GMs, I use a list of house rules. My rules include the following...

Quote:

Variant Spontaneous Casting System

The variant spontaneous casting system I use is designed for spellcasters who normally prepare their spells in advance (including clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and wizards). A spellcaster using this variant prepares the same number spells per spell level as normal. However, instead of preparing the exact combination of spells that she can cast that day (such as two magic missile spells and one mage armor spell for a 2nd-level wizard with Int 14), the spellcaster prepares a list of spells for each spell level from which she can spontaneously cast as she chooses. For example, that 2nd-level wizard with Int 14 would three different 1st-level spells. During the day, she can cast any combination of those three 1st-level spells a total of three times. In effect, the characters list of prepared spells is treated like a sorcerers' list of spells known.

Unlike what a sorcerer can do, a spellcaster using this system cannot spontaneously cast a meta version of the spell on the fly (They have to pre-memorize the meta version(s) they wish to use, taking up slots. Example: A 12th level wizard can memorize 3 level 5 spells. He may choose Cloudkill, Hungry Pit and Maximized Magic Missile. During the day, he may cast 3 cloudkills, or 3 pits, or 3 maximized magic missiles, or any combination of those spells...but once he casts 3 of them, he's out of fifth level spells until he rests.

As you can see, its quite similar to the arcanist in structure. While my version cannot meta on the fly, and has no arcane pool powers, they do get the same number of spells/day as the RAW wizard while having the arcanist's flexibility.

So, my opinion is not "armchair general" analysis, but opinion based on years and countless games of observation "in the field".

In short, my qualified, experienced opinion is This set up is not OP'd.

Over the years, I've had players complain to me when they play next to an optimized, pouncing barbarian, certain summoner builds, and a gunslinger. I have nurfed or outlawed most of those.

However, I've never had players complain, once, about feeling that their team wizard was overpowered. I have had other GM players who say they want to use this houserule. I believe there are two reasons for the GM *and* player love.

In PFS, where wizards must run as RAW, I find few wizards. They're very hard to play. You must prepare your spells ahead of time, oftentimes not knowing what you're going to face. And, if you want to cast a certain spell multiple times, you have to memorize it multiple times. The end result is that the fabled flexibility/adaptability of the wizard generally gives way as players memorize multiple copies of spells effective in the majority of situations, and don't bother with the more situational ones that make them feel more special. Taking away their ability to scribe scrolls in PFS(the best way to keep those situational spells on tap outside of arcane bond) makes it more difficult. Being squishy and generally not doing a lot of damage doesn't help, either.

In my home games, even with these rules (which clearly make wizards/casters more powerful) I don't find players banging down the door to play them (though I generally get balanced teams). Now, I've clearly made a powerful class more powerful. Why don't players bellyache, the way they gripe about some of the other, semi-broken classes? Simple. The way the wizard is OP'd mostly makes others shine. When a wizard buffs someone with invisibility, or crowd controls with stinking cloud, sets others up to knock those pins down. The wizard enables team awesomeness. Sure, I get the occasional evocation build that just kills things as often as possible, but true power gamin' wizards go for CC and buffage. Unlike, say, the OPd summoner build of death that consistently kills tough (or even some boss) mobs in on round... which drew comments from my players like "Why are we here? It's like we're the backup singers for the summoner."

So, this gets more people to play arcane (which always seems to be a need), and gives the wizard more ways to shine which, in turn, helps the entire party to feel more awesome. I think I'm OK with that :) The only ones who tend to feel the burn, here, are my lovely monsters. The added flexibility does allow the wizard to be more effective, more often in combat. But, hey, my enemy casters get to use the same rules, so its all good :)


My experience with wizards is to prepare your utility spells and work a way into spontaneously casting your 'signature combat spells' typically with Preferred Spell or Greater Spell Specialization.

The number of bonus feats the wizard gains makes this very easy.


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master_marshmallow wrote:

It does not obsolete the sorcerer.

It does not obsolete the wizard.

It does not obsolete the witch.

There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.

Could all of it be done by one build?

If the arcanist can't do all of it in one build then you are correct, otherwise the other poster may have a point.


@master_marshmallow:

It's all well and good to say that the Wizard is better at every odd level (other than 1st, where the Arcanist is superior), but its dishonest to ignore that the Wizard is worse at each even level...

Meanwhile, the Wizard gains 5 bonus feats over the course of their career, while the Arcanist gains exploits (which are at least the equal to feats if not sometimes better) 10 times.

I just don't think its as cut-and-dry, /thread as you are pretending it is. The Arcanist's versitility in being able to actively use all of their resources each day is huge, and something difficult to assign a strict value to.


wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It does not obsolete the sorcerer.

It does not obsolete the wizard.

It does not obsolete the witch.

There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.

Could all of it be done by one build?

If the arcanist can't do all of it in one build then you are correct, otherwise the other poster may have a point.

Did you read the last line? It just got made easier to do these things..

The exploiter wizard is by far superior to the arcanist.


master_marshmallow wrote:
This is false, as been demonstrated multiple times, unless you are investing in items specifically to break your spellbook out mid combat, it takes at least 3 rounds to change a spell in combat, rendering it a pretty useless ability in combat.

Gloves of storing aren't expensive and occupy a slot that is mostly unimportant to casters. Now you have your spellbook in your hand as a free action and can immediately switch to any spell you need in one round. I know how the game is played. They will be standard-issue for mid-to-high level Arcanists. Hell, at worst, a lower-level Arcanist can pull his spellbook out of a Handy Haversack as a move action while casting something else and switch his spell the next round. HHs are extremely common. Fact of the matter is the Arcanist has the ability to switch his spells on the fly in a way that vastly outstrips every other spellcasting class. His versatility goes to eleven.

Quote:
Ummm, you can't do that with the Arcanist because you still need to spend a spell slot of the level you are trying to counter or higher...

I get the impression that you do not understand my use here of the term "theoretical", which was quite intentional. There is no theoretical limit to the number of spells a magic user can cast per day given sufficient Pearls of Power. There is a very clear limit to the number of times a Master of Counterspelling can use his trick: four times per day, at twentieth level.

More generally, the interaction between Pearls of Power and Arcanist reservoir points is specifically problematic at this point. If spells "consumed" to fill reservoir points can be recalled through the pearls, then reservoir points can be bought for 1000 gold apiece (the price of a 1st level pearl), which is insanely cheap for the effect. RAW "consumed" and "cast" are I guess not the same thing, but "consumed" is a new term here, and until there is a clear errata, I promise you people will abuse the pearls in exactly this way.

Quote:
Sorcerers actually get some nice buffs in this book, the Spell Lattice in particular is very cost effective and allows you access to a spell as if it was a spell known or spell prepared.

Lol at your spell lattice. That's a band-aid over a spurting artery when comparing the Arcanist and the Sorcerer.

You don't need to tell me about the power of the perfectly named Exploiter Wizard. I was one of the first people here to point out that this archetype is even more broken than the Arcanist. That something out there is even worse does not make the Arcanist any less broken. Neither the Exploiter nor the Arcanist belong in a game in which full casters were already the god kings.


@the secret fire:

I'm still on the fence between Exploiter Wizard vs Occultist Arcanist being the strongest Archetype in the book.

Summon Monster (A spell that I generally would want more preparations/casts of anyway) as a standard action, for reservoir points, 1 minute/level, with access a level earlier is hard to ignore. I just wish the 7th level exploit wasn't also taken.


master_marshmallow wrote:


The exploiter wizard is by far superior to the arcanist.

In order to the wizard not be inferior to the arcanist they rised the power of the wizard...not sure how taht can be good.


K177Y C47 wrote:
(Counter Drain is really annoying at higher levels)

It looked neat, but my read through I didn't think it would be as useful since I so rarely see spellcasters ready to counter in the first place when the option to shoot the caster to disrupt the spell is much more consistent.

Without some other ability to counter spells without spending an action I think it would be a nice bonus, but nothing near annoying.


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lesser extend nothing, the master summoner is by far the most powerful class in terms of raw power.


master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It does not obsolete the sorcerer.

It does not obsolete the wizard.

It does not obsolete the witch.

There is nothing the class can do that couldn't be done before, they just made some things easier to do.

Could all of it be done by one build?

If the arcanist can't do all of it in one build then you are correct, otherwise the other poster may have a point.

Did you read the last line? It just got made easier to do these things..

The exploiter wizard is by far superior to the arcanist.

You did not answer the question. Making it easier to do them has no bearing on whether or not they can all be done with one build.


I am going to try to build one that can do everything in this post. I will also look to see if it can do this all day long or if it is limited in being able to do so.

@the secret fire: Can the arcanist do this all day long?<----me trying to avoid making a build if I don't have to.


Why are you saying that the arcanist can use pearls of power, he needs runestones of power since he is a spontaneous caster (mostly).

Question:
Do we know if the arcanists uses metamagic rods as a wizard or as a sorcerer?


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Artanthos wrote:

The arcanist is overpowered for tables that play with a 15 minute adventuring day.

False.

When the spell casters run out of spells, spell casters AND mundane classes go home.

This argument of yours is old and it still doesn't hold any water.

Shadow Lodge

Zark wrote:
Artanthos wrote:

The arcanist is overpowered for tables that play with a 15 minute adventuring day.

False.

When the spell casters run out of spells, spell casters AND mundane classes go home.

This argument of yours is old and it still doesn't hold any water.

While its true 15 Minute Work Day is false, that's more because with wise spell preparation, or spells known[keeping low-level spells that are useful at higher levels, using cantrips for non-important low-level fights, etc], 15 Minute Work Day lasts longer then the fighter has HP. I mean, yeah, everyone goes home when full casters run out of spells, that's because the Mundanes are empty when the casters are empty. At least, from my experience with a few Clerics, Oracles, Inquisitors, and a wizard.


the secret fire wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
This is false, as been demonstrated multiple times, unless you are investing in items specifically to break your spellbook out mid combat, it takes at least 3 rounds to change a spell in combat, rendering it a pretty useless ability in combat.

Gloves of storing aren't expensive and occupy a slot that is mostly unimportant to casters. Now you have your spellbook in your hand as a free action and can immediately switch to any spell you need in one round. I know how the game is played. They will be standard-issue for mid-to-high level Arcanists. Hell, at worst, a lower-level Arcanist can pull his spellbook out of a Handy Haversack as a move action while casting something else and switch his spell the next round. HHs are extremely common. Fact of the matter is the Arcanist has the ability to switch his spells on the fly in a way that vastly outstrips every other spellcasting class. His versatility goes to eleven.

Quote:
Ummm, you can't do that with the Arcanist because you still need to spend a spell slot of the level you are trying to counter or higher...

I get the impression that you do not understand my use here of the term "theoretical", which was quite intentional. There is no theoretical limit to the number of spells a magic user can cast per day given sufficient Pearls of Power. There is a very clear limit to the number of times a Master of Counterspelling can use his trick: four times per day, at twentieth level.

More generally, the interaction between Pearls of Power and Arcanist reservoir points is specifically problematic at this point. If spells "consumed" to fill reservoir points can be recalled through the pearls, then reservoir points can be bought for 1000 gold apiece (the price of a 1st level pearl), which is insanely cheap for the effect. RAW "consumed" and "cast" are I guess not the same thing, but "consumed" is a new term here, and until there is a clear errata, I promise you people will abuse the pearls in exactly this way....

So tl;dr, with the right magic item the class can break the game. I shouldn't have to explain why this is flawed logic. See: every fighter thread.

Without those coveted items the class is limited.


master_marshmallow wrote:
the secret fire wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
This is false, as been demonstrated multiple times, unless you are investing in items specifically to break your spellbook out mid combat, it takes at least 3 rounds to change a spell in combat, rendering it a pretty useless ability in combat.

Gloves of storing aren't expensive and occupy a slot that is mostly unimportant to casters. Now you have your spellbook in your hand as a free action and can immediately switch to any spell you need in one round. I know how the game is played. They will be standard-issue for mid-to-high level Arcanists. Hell, at worst, a lower-level Arcanist can pull his spellbook out of a Handy Haversack as a move action while casting something else and switch his spell the next round. HHs are extremely common. Fact of the matter is the Arcanist has the ability to switch his spells on the fly in a way that vastly outstrips every other spellcasting class. His versatility goes to eleven.

Quote:
Ummm, you can't do that with the Arcanist because you still need to spend a spell slot of the level you are trying to counter or higher...

I get the impression that you do not understand my use here of the term "theoretical", which was quite intentional. There is no theoretical limit to the number of spells a magic user can cast per day given sufficient Pearls of Power. There is a very clear limit to the number of times a Master of Counterspelling can use his trick: four times per day, at twentieth level.

More generally, the interaction between Pearls of Power and Arcanist reservoir points is specifically problematic at this point. If spells "consumed" to fill reservoir points can be recalled through the pearls, then reservoir points can be bought for 1000 gold apiece (the price of a 1st level pearl), which is insanely cheap for the effect. RAW "consumed" and "cast" are I guess not the same thing, but "consumed" is a new term here, and until there is a clear errata, I promise you people will abuse

...

Except that Arcanists can MAKE the items themselves... fighter require some way to find a guy to make it for them... or have the GM be nice and hand it to them.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Arcanists are like sorcerers and oracles - Since they don't lose a prepared spell when casting, they can't use a pearl of power. They need runestones of power, which don't actually give you a spell slot back.


wraithstrike wrote:
@the secret fire: Can the arcanist do this all day long?<----me trying to avoid making a build if I don't have to.

RAW right now, it appears that the Arcanist can probably "buy" reservoir points either in the form of 1st level pearls or runestones of power (I'm not really sure if he's a prepared or spontaneous caster for the purposes of magic items), meaning that he can keep his reservoir filled for a pretty good amount of time for a reasonable expenditure of gold. Consume Magic Items is inefficient for the Arcanist, but is actually allright for the Exploiter Wizard, who gets Scribe Scroll and can suck a reservoir point out of a 2nd level scroll, which he can scribe for 75GP. So the Exploiter Wizard can also build up a nice backup pool of consumable scrolls to refill his reservoir in a pinch.

Both can also buy an extra three reservoir points with a feat, which can be taken multiple times and stacks. Keeping the reservoir filled for a good long while won't be much of a problem.

Copious counterspelling is harder because you have to sacrifice your own spells of equal level to do it. In theory, it is limited only by the number of x_of power you can afford, but in practice, you're probably only going to use it a few times per day before getting dangerously low on higher-level spells. It's wicked effective when you can use it, though, even more so for the Exploiter Wizard, whose spell progression is better.

Here, a sample build:

-------------------------------------------------------------

11th level Elven Arcanist // 15 point buy
Str: 8
Int: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

Exploits:
1: Potent Magic
3: Dimensional Slide / Familiar
5: Quick Study
7: School Understanding [Foresight School - Prescience]
9: Counterspelling
11: Greater Counterspell / Counter Drain

Feats:
1: Improved Initiative
3: Extra Exploit
5: Craft Wondrous Item
7: Improved Familiar
9: Spell Penetration
11: Extra Exploit

Reservoir points/day = 8 base

The reservoir points are spent mostly on some combination of Dimensional Slide (saved for defensive emergencies), Potent Magic (used aggressively in offensive save-or-sucks) and Quick Study for near-instant switching of spells prepared. Counterspelling, when the Dispel check succeeds, will pay for itself in reservoir points, and Counterspelling will generally succeed when you need it because you get four rerolls/day through the Prescience power in your School Understanding exploit (you'll obviously save these rolls for tense situations like CL checks and saving throws).

You have an improved familiar and UMD as a class skill, so go nuts with that. You don't have a great CHA, but hey...you don't care, either. The only thing your CHA bonus is adding here in another reroll/day through Prescience. You could just as well dump it for more DEX.

More reservoir points can be essentially bought for 1000GP (1st level Pearls of Power) or 2000GP (1st level Runstones) apiece depending on if he counts as a prepared or spontaneous caster, and you have Craft Wondrous Item, so go nuts with that. For a relatively small investment of resources (8000 if the runestones, only 4000 if the Pearls), you can double your reservoir to 16 points/day through crafting, which is plenty. You'll be out of spells before you're out of reservoir points with that many.

This is a very vanilla build without any attempt at metamagic combinations or bloodline development, and it is already an absolute buzzsaw. It can get out of jail free with Dimensional Slide, boost its SL or DCs by two in attack, switch out for any spells it needs in one round's time (or two, at worst, if you're just pulling the spellbook out of a Haversack, which allows you to cast on the round you remove the book), counterspell as an immediate action up to its own spell level, and reroll any rolls four times/day through Prescience. Oh, and it has an improved familiar that can go stupid with wands and the best crafting feat.

Like I said, the Arcanist is just a big bag of advantages with no drawbacks to balance them out. It is everything at once, thoroughly broken in the hands of an intelligent player.


Arcanists can grab scribe scroll too... they just have to actually PICK the feat... but then again they can just use the exploit to get a "crafting" feat (Scribe Scroll is technically a crafting feat)


master_marshmallow wrote:

So tl;dr, with the right magic item the class can break the game. I shouldn't have to explain why this is flawed logic. See: every fighter thread.

Without those coveted items the class is limited.

We're not talking about some weird corner build here, but staple items that every magic user already uses in copious amounts, and the Arcanist can make his own.

Even if there ends up being an errata (which I really doubt) and the Arcanist can use neither Pearls nor Runestones to recover spells that he has consumed for points...even then he can just buy more points with feats. In the sample build above, the Arcanist could easily dispense with Spell Penetration seeing as he can use it at-will through Potent Magic, anyway, and is already an Elf. That gives him three more reservoir points/day, putting him at 11. Eleven uses of Dimensional Slide/Potent Magic/Quick Study is going to get him quite a long way.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

You can't get reservoir points from a runestone of power: A runestone is used instead of a spell slot to cast a spell, as opposed to refilling a spell slot for the user.

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