So just grab Scribe Scroll the feat and get the exploit to drain reservoir points from magical items... BAM easy work around.
You can't get reservoir points from a runestone of power: A runestone is used instead of a spell slot to cast a spell, as opposed to refilling a spell slot for the user.
For our purposes, they are de facto the same thing, at least up to the maximum number of 1st level spells that an Arcanist can cast in any given day. In the above example, our hero gets 4 first level spells/day base, plus two for his INT bonus. So six. He can consume six 1st level spells/day to feed his reservoir, and get those spells back through the runestones. These extra six points bring him up to 14 reservoir points per day, which is plenty. This would cost him 6000 gold if he crafts the runestones, himself. Not exactly breaking the bank, there.
Buy he still needs to expend higher level spell slots to counter high level spells, meaning to do what is being accused one would need hundreds of thousands of gold set aside solely for that purpose.
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Only until level 11. After that, he counters with spells of the same level.
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Buy he still needs to expend higher level spell slots to counter high level spells, meaning to do what is being accused one would need hundreds of thousands of gold set aside solely for that purpose.
Nobody can do a lot of counterspelling in a day by any existing mechanic because of the spell slots it costs, but how long is an enemy spellcaster going to last getting his own spells shut down (with the Arcanist using Prescience rerolls to up his chances of making his dispel checks) and eating whatever the Arcanist throws at him (boosted by Potent Magic, no less)? Two rounds? Three?
The Arcanist can't counterspell all day, yes...no one can, but he can go nova like nobody's business and effectively solo encounters against the single most dangerous class of enemy in the game, that being spellcasters. Yes, the BBEG Wizard's high level spells won't be counterable because he's a higher level than the party, but that's like saying that Cindy Crawford is ugly because she's got a mole on her face.
The counterspell ability is incredibly potent for taking down enemy spellcasters, so much so that it's going to distort how DMs go after parties with Arcanists in them, mark my words. But no, not practically possible to just do it all day long. It's a nova ability.
The rest of the reservoir powers, however, are quite sustainable, and very, very strong.
Only until level 11. After that, he counters with spells of the same level.
Which brings me back to my point that he can't do out an infinite number of times in a day.
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....
How about we actually let some play data decide if it's uber overpowered, rather than judging a book by it's cover?
I get a knee-jerk reaction, but for Buddha sakes! The books has been out for, what, around a week now? Accept the fact that hard codified evidence has yet to pour in from a MASS pool of experience, and admit the possibility that all these UBER-OP options might actually play out sub-par at the table!
Is it too much to ask that people have a little patience!?
All you ever heard about Mystic Theurge was "OMFG BROKE!" when it was announced. How many people ever actually played one and dominated the game in the whole of 3.X?
I'm starting to get a little sick of the implication that "being able to read something and draw conclusions" is "meaningless theorycraft" because we don't have enough anecdotes about it yet.
Also, I don't know how anyone could have said the Mystic Theurge would be OP. Barring early entry shenanigans, the loss of caster levels and casting progression is a deal-breaker.
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Uh, if he's willing to dole out the time to make Runestones, and takes one other Exploit, yeah, he pretty much can, all day long.
Except that Arcanists can MAKE the items themselves... fighter require some way to find a guy to make it for them... or have the GM be nice and hand it to them.
Also known as Schrodinger's Handy Haversack.
Sorry, one other Exploit, and his capstone. Magical Supremacy plus Counter-Drain means he never runs out of spells, and always has the right spell to counterspell.
Oh one thing that I find kinda scary with the Arcanist at level cap (granted level 20 is just a rediculous monstrocity anyway) is the ability to go back and forth between points and spells. While normally this seems alright... until you consider the fact you can sac a 4th and 5th level spell to get a 9th level spell back (and I think a 9th level spell is worth a 4th and 5th level spell...)
Are people saying the Wizard has more spells per day than the Arcanist because of the school slots? Because, as far as I can tell, that is the only thing putting them at a higher Spells per Day. Arcanists are actually a little bit ahead of Generalists, and they have twice as many cantrips* available to them.
*This isn't really meaningful, it just entertains me that an Arcanist gets up to nine cantrips to use during a day.
Hey man! With Sacred Geometry and rods those cantrips can get mean xD
Dazing Persistent Echoing Heightened Acid Splash rears its head again.
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The counterspell ability is incredibly potent for taking down enemy spellcasters, so much so that it's going to distort how DMs go after parties with Arcanists in them, mark my words. But no, not practically possible to just do it all day long. It's a nova ability.
As a player of an arcanist from level 1-10, I can say the ability to counterspell rarely, if ever, comes up in a meaningful way (as in any fight where it matters) - the arcanist lacks a higher level spell to power his counterspell against the enemy caster.
Counterspelling enemy magic missile and grease spells in late rounds of a long combat is not that big of a deal, and in some ways I'm not sure is worth the 2nd level spell that it takes to do so if there will be later combats that day. I'd almost always rather not counterspell and simply use a wand after combat concludes when the enemy caster is down to resorting to casting 1st or 2nd level spells.
Well seeing as we are discussing over powered things...
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Name one spell which you
1) Wouldn't prepare normally
2) Would be worth a 2 round casting time since the spell can't go off on the round you swap it.
I agree with most of your post, but I think that Aboleth's Lung fulfills this requirement, at least if you aren't already preparing it. I've seen plenty not expect to use it. Its situational, but when you need to go diving, its likely that you don't have a say in it, so it becomes pretty good. Touch of the Sea as well, to a lesser extent.
When I first heard the class was overpowered the very first thing I did after reading how it cast was Ctrl+F "Metamagic" only to find there is no way for it to reduce metamagic.
So I read on.
It's base chassis is terrible. Straight up bad.
It has
1/2 bab, bad fort/ref good will, d6, bad sorc casting
vs
1/2 bab, bad fort/ref good will, d6, full 9th castingWizards can still pull that one spell straight out of the book with a bonded ring.
As for "OMG They CAN SWAP SPELLS IN COMBAT!" Name one spell which you
1) Wouldn't prepare normally
2) Would be worth a 2 round casting time since the spell can't go off on the round you swap it.Also, I don't know how anyone could have said the Mystic Theurge would be OP. Barring early entry shenanigans, the loss of caster levels and casting progression is a deal-breaker.Even if you can enter it at level 3 (1/1/10) it's still bad because you lost ONE CASTER LEVEL. The same is true here. The arcanist gives up ONE CASTER LEVEL and it's just not as good because of it.
Not quite true at all...
For instance, Blaster wizards are notorious for 1 level dips which allow them ramp up damage FAST...
And there is no IN CLASS way to reduce meta-magic... but it is still one of the best meta-magic classes in the game.. With the ability to prepare meta-magic THEN apply meta-magic again before casting allows for some crazy shinanigins...
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Oh... and MT shinanigans when combined with Evangelist (i think that is the prestige class) gets rediculous... you will lose out on 2 CLs but if you Went Wizard 1/Cleric 1/ MT 10/Evanelist8 you would effectively have 9th level Cleric spells AND 9th level Wizard spells... and some of them boons are NICE...
When I first heard the class was overpowered the very first thing I did after reading how it cast was Ctrl+F "Metamagic" only to find there is no way for it to reduce metamagic.I meant to address this as well. The Arcanist can apply metamagic as if it were a Sorceror AND a Wizard:
So, you can spontaneously add metamagic to your spells, just like a Sorceror, but you can also add metamagic when you prepare just like a Wizard would. It is your choice.Like a sorcerer, an arcanist can choose to apply any
metamagic feats she knows to a prepared spell as she casts
it, with the same increase in casting time (see Spontaneous
Casting and Metamagic Feats on page 113 of the Core Rulebook).
However, she may also prepare a spell with any metamagic
feats she knows and cast it without increasing casting time
like a wizard. She cannot combine these options—a spell
prepared with metamagic feats cannot be further modified
with another metamagic feat at the time of casting (unless
she has the metamixing arcanist exploit, detailed below).
If you get Meta-mixing you can do both at the same time
We're rating Sacred Geometry so highly because it makes Metamagic Mastery look like a cheap knockoff, or something to simply add on to an already out of control power.
Can the arcanist shutdown someone with quicken spell? I ask because I have used dedicated counterspellers as NPC's and there is nothing the arcanist can do except use an immediate action to counter a spell and then ready an action to counter the next spell. I am not saying the tactic cant work but it is not something that would work if the enemy has multuple casters that are optimized. Of course the GM may not like tbrowing optimized casters at the party. hmm
Yes, but not exactly for the reason you posit. Partially, yes, but the big thing, besides its insanity when it comes to Metamagic, is it is equivalent to three feats for the price of one as well.
I'd probably still play a wizard over an arcanist. I'd probably recommend an arcanist to new players that want to play an arcane spellcaster. The main advantage the arcanist has is being the most powerful class in the game without any significant amount of system mastery. It has most of what a wizard has with a few minor drawbacks, while basically eliminating the wizard's primary weakness.
The wizard is still probably more powerful by a hair for a player with a high level of system mastery. The arcanist just made the most mediocre player at your table nearly as good as the best by putting the most powerful, but trickiest class to play at its' full potential on training wheels.
The sorcerer is most definitely obsolete though. There is an arcanist archetype, the Blood Arcanist, that gives you a full bloodline sans feats, bonus spells and skills. You get the Arcana and bloodline powers at the tradeoff of losing the exploit at that level (1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th and the capstone). A hefty tradeoff to not get an exploit until level 5, but if you were playing a sorcerer for the Arcana and bloodline powers then there isn't any reason to do that now.
Oh... and MT shinanigans when combined with Evangelist (i think that is the prestige class) gets rediculous... you will lose out on 2 CLs but if you Went Wizard 1/Cleric 1/ MT 10/Evanelist8 you would effectively have 9th level Cleric spells AND 9th level Wizard spells... and some of them boons are NICE...Are you sure Evangelist's class progressing ability works with Mystic Theurge? And if so, why are you sure?
The ability says:
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
And Spell casting is part of the Evangelist Class features... So there is no reason why it would not work.
Tell me how a hair better at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, and 17th the wizard is. +1 spell level available is totally just a hair and in no way colossal.I'd probably still play a wizard over an arcanist. I'd probably recommend an arcanist to new players that want to play an arcane spellcaster. The main advantage the arcanist has is being the most powerful class in the game without any significant amount of system mastery. It has most of what a wizard has with a few minor drawbacks, while basically eliminating the wizard's primary weakness.
The wizard is still probably more powerful by a hair for a player with a high level of system mastery. The arcanist just made the most mediocre player at your table nearly as good as the best by putting the most powerful, but trickiest class to play at its' full potential on training wheels.
The sorcerer is most definitely obsolete though. There is an arcanist archetype, the Blood Arcanist, that gives you a full bloodline sans feats, bonus spells and skills. You get the Arcana and bloodline powers at the tradeoff of losing the exploit at that level (1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th and the capstone). A hefty tradeoff to not get an exploit until level 5, but if you were playing a sorcerer for the Arcana and bloodline powers then there isn't any reason to do that now.
+1 spell level is in no way colossal and is just a hair. Consider yourself told.
Buy he still needs to expend higher level spell slots to counter high level spells, meaning to do what is being accused one would need hundreds of thousands of gold set aside solely for that purpose.Nobody can do a lot of counterspelling in a day by any existing mechanic because of the spell slots it costs, but how long is an enemy spellcaster going to last getting his own spells shut down (with the Arcanist using Prescience rerolls to up his chances of making his dispel checks) and eating whatever the Arcanist throws at him (boosted by Potent Magic, no less)? Two rounds? Three?
The Arcanist can't counterspell all day, yes...no one can, but he can go nova like nobody's business and effectively solo encounters against the single most dangerous class of enemy in the game, that being spellcasters. Yes, the BBEG Wizard's high level spells won't be counterable because he's a higher level than the party, but that's like saying that Cindy Crawford is ugly because she's got a mole on her face.
The counterspell ability is incredibly potent for taking down enemy spellcasters, so much so that it's going to distort how DMs go after parties with Arcanists in them, mark my words. But no, not practically possible to just do it all day long. It's a nova ability.
The rest of the reservoir powers, however, are quite sustainable, and very, very strong.
But wizards can do it just as well as Arcanists can if built for it. That's the entire point, it's not that the Arcanist isn't a powerful class, it's that the things it does are not original nor game breaking.
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As for "OMG They CAN SWAP SPELLS IN COMBAT!" Name one spell which you
1) Wouldn't prepare normally
2) Would be worth a 2 round casting time since the spell can't go off on the round you swap it.
Lots of spells...lots of them. Let's see:
- pretty much anything that targets undead specifically (command, et al.)
- magic circle against_x
- protection from arrows, communal
- resist energy, communal
- darkvision, communal
- water breathing
- ride the waves
- dimensional lock
- absorbing inhalation (remove cloud effects)
- apparent master (take control of a construct)
- life bubble
- dismissal
.
.
.
- mind blank, communal
Basically anything targeting or protecting from one very specific enemy type (outsiders, undead, constructs, illithid, etc.), one specific environmental problem (under water, elemental damage types, sudden darkness), or one specific effect (massed non-magical archery, attacked with a cloud effect, etc.). Yes, there are many scenarios where being able to burn a round to call up TEH ONE PURFECT SPELL is entirely worth it, and very powerful. I am surprised you would even ask the question.
And anybody can do it now with an Arcanist.
It takes 3 rounds to change and cast your spell -> not very usable in combat.
Ultimately the wizard leaving a slot open to prepare a niche spell out of combat is exactly as useful as an arcanist using quick study.
There's also that Flexible Wizardry feat, not to mention a wizard simply preparing his utility spells and using Preferred Spell/Greater Spell Specialization to cast the spell he needs spontaneously without preparing it.
But wizards can do it just as well as Arcanists can if built for it. That's the entire point, it's not that the Arcanist isn't a powerful class, it's that the things it does are not original nor game breaking.
Unless you are referring to the Exploiter Wizard (whose brokenness is off the charts), Wizards "built for it" cannot counterspell effectively and do all of the other wonderful things the Arcanist can do (Dimensional Slide/Quick Study/Potent Magic on command, etc.) at the same time. The old Counterspell Master is an unpopular niche build for the following reasons:
- you have to be an Abjuration specialist, which generally sucks
- you have to use a spell one level higher to counter. The Arcanist outgrows this at 11th level.
- you are still restricted to countering spells within the same school. If you have no necromancy spells prepared and get targeted with one, you're out of luck. The Arcanist doesn't have this restriction. **Forget this one, you did**
So yeah, the Arcanist, or better yet the Exploiter Wizard, is a better counterspeller than anything that came before him in an absolute sense. He also doesn't suffer from the niche drawbacks of the old Abjurer Counterspelling subschool specialist.
The main problem with the Arcanist does not lie with any one of his many powerful abilities, but with the fact that he gets them all at the same time. Even the counterspelling thing, while quite potent, would be acceptable on a class that wasn't capable of doing damn near anything else that it pleases. The Arcanist can simply do too much, and his power and versatility are not balanced by meaningful drawbacks.
It takes 3 rounds to change and cast your spell -> not very usable in combat.
If a fight is running long, because the enemy is hard, but there is that ONE spell that would shut that enemy down, then it would be very relevant in that combat.
Outside combat, the change out is so fast GM's likely won't be rolling for wandering encounters, the party won't even have to pull back. You can have the spell swapped while the room is looted.
It takes 3 rounds to change and cast your spell -> not very usable in combat.
It takes two rounds with a single inexpensive item. Let us please not pretend that people won't start building Arcanists around Gloves of Storing now in order to cut the time down to two rounds. At two rounds, it is very valuable for a whole host of niche spells.
There's also that Flexible Wizardry feat, not to mention a wizard simply preparing his utility spells and using Preferred Spell/Greater Spell Specialization to cast the spell he needs spontaneously without preparing it.
Flexible Wizardry still requires you to guess right at the beginning of the day; it just gives you a few more guesses. This doesn't even approach the Arcanist's ability to react to any situation on the fly, and comes with a feat tax, as well.
As far as Preferred Spell/Greater Spell Specialization...lol. You apparently like to play in easy mode campaigns where the DM doesn't run intelligent enemies who can figure out that you have one specialized spell and counter it. Are you seriously comparing this stuff to what an Arcanist can do?
Outside combat, the change out is so fast GM's likely won't be rolling for wandering encounters, the party won't even have to pull back. You can have the spell swapped while the room is looted.
A wizard with the excellent Fast Study discovery can do this as well, memorizing a spell from an open slot in one minute's time, which is essentially no time. Out of combat, a well-played wizard can change on the fly quite effectively, but this takes smarts on the part of the player. The Arcanist can just buy Gloves of Storing and derp his way through every encounter with all the niche spells he needs one round away...the world's smartest fool.
I will add one thing:
One possible mitigating factor to the use of Quick Study in combat (even with Gloves of Storing) is that it makes the spellbook vulnerable. As a DM, I would eventually sunder the s##* out of an Arcanist's spellbook if he kept whipping it out to pull niche spells to end encounters. Wizards are generally very protective of their spellbooks for a reason, and getting one sundered is your worst nightmare as a wizard. You can smash my bonded item, pick your butt with my staff and rape my familiar, but don't touch my spellbook. Simply having the damned thing out repeatedly in combat is something that will likely come back to haunt any Arcanist whose DM doesn't run enemies on easy mode.
This is a meaningful and potentially terrifying drawback (almost enough to make me not want to take Quick Study as an Arcanist, now that I think of it), but I know how a lot of people play, and I doubt it will come up as often as it really should.
This is a meaningful and potentially terrifying drawback (almost enough to make me not want to take Quick Study as an Arcanist, now that I think of it), but I know how a lot of people play, and I doubt it will come up as often as it really should.
I foresee lots of partly filled traveling spell books, so that only a subset of spell records can be taken out with a single hit.
Also expect a master backup spellbook stashed in an extra-dimensional space. For re-copying spells to replace the sundered books.
Now that I am home and I have read about this class I can say it looks really good on paper. I think it can give a wizard a run for its money because of how versatile it is. The 15 minute work day does not really exist for higher level casters, unless they just blow spells or cast just to be casting, and even then they normally have more than enough, so that is not really a deterrent.
@ Secret Fire: If a caster pulls out a spellbook with someone standing close to him he gets what he deserves. :)
That is kind of like sending a familiar into combat in 3.5 when losing one affected the caster in a negative maner.
This is a meaningful and potentially terrifying drawback (almost enough to make me not want to take Quick Study as an Arcanist, now that I think of it), but I know how a lot of people play, and I doubt it will come up as often as it really should.I foresee lots of partly filled traveling spell books, so that only a subset of spell records can be taken out with a single hit.
Also expect a master backup spellbook stashed in an extra-dimensional space. For re-copying spells to replace the sundered books.
It was a design mistake in PF to make spellbooks so easy to copy. I guess this just compounds that mistake because you're right...this potential vulnerability is all too easy to account for.
It was a design mistake in PF to make spellbooks so easy to copy. I guess this just compounds that mistake because you're right...this potential vulnerability is all too easy to account for.This is a meaningful and potentially terrifying drawback (almost enough to make me not want to take Quick Study as an Arcanist, now that I think of it), but I know how a lot of people play, and I doubt it will come up as often as it really should.I foresee lots of partly filled traveling spell books, so that only a subset of spell records can be taken out with a single hit.
Also expect a master backup spellbook stashed in an extra-dimensional space. For re-copying spells to replace the sundered books.
I don't think so since taking away class features is not fun for most players. No, I am not saying actions should not have consequences, but almost every spellbook stealing scenario is not too realistic. It is often easier to outright kill the caster than get the book from him, and escape, unless you use something several CR's beyond the party. Even then it is hard to keep coming with reasons as to why the wizard or party is not dead.
You might be able to use the "enemy X does not believe in killing" once, but that is a limited use reason. You could establish protagonist in your world that hate killing, but the PC's likely won't have that viewpoint, and it is not something many GM's will like to use anyway.
You could have the PC's go to some function where no magic item or weapons are allowed to include spellbooks, but that would already seem like a setup to most groups, even without a wizard.
TLDR, it is hard to pull off without it looking forced. Even going after an arcane bond(assuming they have one) which is out in the open is not easy to identify, and get to.
The arcanist is overpowered for tables that play with a 15 minute adventuring day.
The arcanist has a crippling weakness at tables that play 7-8 encounters between rest periods.
Given this, different groups will have vastly differing experiences.
Given how Paizo has designed their classes, short adventuring workdays have pretty much become standard, especially at the lower levels.
About every one of the new classes Paizo has written since the APG have a limited charge mechanic in their design which severely limits their effectiveness in combat after they run out of that resource. So the crippling weakness which you attribute to the Arcanist is distributed pretty evenly among all party members.
Just asking, but are we sure that the Exploiter Wizard can even take Greater Exploits? If the archetype can't do that, it loses out in power significantly.
I don't think so since taking away class features is not fun for most players.
You're right, and wrong. It may have been a fine game-mechanics decision in the case of the wizard because the wizard doesn't have much reason to have his spellbook out there flapping during combat so why bother making things complicated? Nobody wants to lose class powers, even temporarily, so just give him an easy way out and be done with it. Sure...fine.
Of course, it was a terrible decision from a role-playing point of view because it encourages cynical "Pathfinder behavior" which has nothing to do with playing a character and everything to do with mechanical efficiency. What fantasy wizard would realistically let a smelly barbarian or an untrustworthy cutpurse so much as look as his spellbook, nevermind carry it? Right...none of them would, and yet in PF, it is standard practice. The rule encourages the players to break immersion and do things the characters would never do because they are teh win.
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The problems with how this rule interacts with the arcanist are a perfect example of what makes a splatbook a splatbook. Generally speaking (rubbish like Divine Protection notwithstanding), the problem with splatbooks are never single, massive unbalancing classes, features, spells or feats, but rather how the new material interacts with the old. We see this with Paragon Surge Sorcerers quite clearly. They made a harmless-seeming spell and didn't think about how it might interact with the feats available. Bam...broken system.
Lack of any meaningful penalty for losing a spellbook is fine for wizards, but now along comes a class that has a very good reason to pull the spellbook out during combat...and now you have a problem. A smart designer would find some way to balance the ludicrous potency of an ability like Quick Study with some danger or drawback in its use. But what is the danger here if you've just got copies of the spellbook in everybody else's bag of holding? Yeah...none. Typical splatbook crap.
It's the same thing with the School Understanding exploit. The 1st level non-level-dependent school abilities which are actually good (Prescience and Versatile Evocation) were reasonably balanced for wizards because they came with built-in drawbacks - crappy other school powers for the Evoker and lousy bonus spells for the Diviner. Now along comes the Arcanist who can take these school powers like he's picking from a menu. He scoops up the best ones, and ignores the original drawbacks of making the choices which led to these powers. Typical splatbook crap.
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And that's ultimately what the Arcanist is: typical splatbook crap. This is how good game systems die - the death of a thousand cuts. There's not any one, huge, glaring thing wrong with the Arcanist (no, not even the counterspelling), but rather a thousand tiny things which all add together to make him the king of the derpy magicians. The one saving grace of the wizard class in the past is that in order to get the most out of it, you needed a player with a certain modicum of intelligence, system knowledge and planning ability. Players capable of really making a wizard a god were actually fairly rare.
Now along comes the Arcanist - just as powerful as the wizard, but with a massive easy mode button for any player who didn't bother to use divination, to think or prepare. Where strong wizard players weren't in abundance, you can find strong Arcanist players everywhere: waiting at bus stops, at Insane Clown Posse concerts (f~$%in cantrips, how do they work?), bussing tables at Arbys, you name it.
It's pretty ironic, if you think about it. A lot of people have been clamoring for a long time for the wizard to be brought down to earth. Now, they've got their wish, and they don't even know it. The wizard hasn't been humbled by losing his power, no...if you go ahead and take the Exploiter archetype, he's even more powerful than ever. The existence of the Arcanist has done something much worse to the wizard; it's taken away his dignity.