Would a Brawler and Monk's unarmed strike damage stack?


Rules Questions


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It's the same ability with the same progression so I was wondering if the Brawler's unarmed strike damage would stack with a Monk's unarmed strike damage so that a lv2 Monk/lv2 Brawler would have 1d8 Unarmed strike damage rather than 1d6 which is what a lv2 Monk or a lv2 Brawler would have as their damage.


From the guide it says that some abilities would become redundant on a combined character. That most of them wont stack.

Grand Lodge

Bump


I'd say it wouldn't stack, for the reason spellcasting levels don't stack unless its called out.


I'd say yes since it says a monk's robe works on them as if they where a monk. "If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."


There's nothing that would allow them to stack.


graystone wrote:
I'd say yes since it says a monk's robe works on them as if they where a monk. "If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."

This is true because Martial Training explicitly says that Brawler levels count as monk levels for items and feats, but it says nothing about class features.


Secret Wizard wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'd say yes since it says a monk's robe works on them as if they where a monk. "If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."
This is true because Martial Training explicitly says that Brawler levels count as monk levels for items and feats, but it says nothing about class features.

So the monk's robe can add 5 monk levels to your damage but actual monk levels can't? I'm going with them stacking since they go out of their way to point out the robe and the only way it works is if those damages CAN stack. If they can't, having monk levels for it are meaningless.


I'd let them stack. At most it is a few points of damage. Nothing game breaking.


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No. They don't stack but I don't think allowing them to stack would cause any problems.


To me, it sounds like they wouldn't stack.

This brings up the question of how would the Monastic Legacy feat work with affecting Brawler/Monk multiclassing? Add half of your non monk levels (Brawler levels) to your Monk levels (Monk levels... and Brawler levels?) to determine your unarmed strike damage.

Unless I'm looking at it wrong, it seems like Monastic legacy would allow you to combine your Brawler and Monk levels - Since Brawlers count as both Fighters and Monks when determining the effects of a feat according to the Martial Training feature.


graystone wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'd say yes since it says a monk's robe works on them as if they where a monk. "If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."
This is true because Martial Training explicitly says that Brawler levels count as monk levels for items and feats, but it says nothing about class features.
So the monk's robe can add 5 monk levels to your damage but actual monk levels can't? I'm going with them stacking since they go out of their way to point out the robe and the only way it works is if those damages CAN stack. If they can't, having monk levels for it are meaningless.

The part you're quoting is what lets these new classes count for special abilities. Normally only a fighter can get fighter feats, but it says you count as a fighter. Normally the monk robes wouldn't work with you, but it's saying you count as monk for the item. This lets them not redo all the items to say, "Monk or Brawler" but instead say, hey a brawler can get this too like a monk can.


Kyrrion wrote:

To me, it sounds like they wouldn't stack.

This brings up the question of how would the Monastic Legacy feat work with affecting Brawler/Monk multiclassing? Add half of your non monk levels (Brawler levels) to your Monk levels (Monk levels... and Brawler levels?) to determine your unarmed strike damage.

Unless I'm looking at it wrong, it seems like Monastic legacy would allow you to combine your Brawler and Monk levels - Since Brawlers count as both Fighters and Monks when determining the effects of a feat according to the Martial Training feature.

I think you'd add have of one to the other and do it the other way too and then pick the highest. Just like currently, monk has 1d6 brawler has 1d8 you just choose the better one. This is part of the redundant abilities they mention, saying things don't stack unless specifically says it does.


Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'd say yes since it says a monk's robe works on them as if they where a monk. "If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."
This is true because Martial Training explicitly says that Brawler levels count as monk levels for items and feats, but it says nothing about class features.
So the monk's robe can add 5 monk levels to your damage but actual monk levels can't? I'm going with them stacking since they go out of their way to point out the robe and the only way it works is if those damages CAN stack. If they can't, having monk levels for it are meaningless.
The part you're quoting is what lets these new classes count for special abilities. Normally only a fighter can get fighter feats, but it says you count as a fighter. Normally the monk robes wouldn't work with you, but it's saying you count as monk for the item. This lets them not redo all the items to say, "Monk or Brawler" but instead say, hey a brawler can get this too like a monk can.

That's all fine and good but they point out that robe and the only way THAT robe cares about monk levels is stacking. If they can't stack then that's just about the dumbest example they could have picked.


@graystone
Why is that dumb? It prevents them from needing to rewrite the item for Monks and Brawlers. How would you have liked it phased to indicate that it raised the Brawlers unarmed strike the same way it boosts a monks without needing to change the item description at all?


Chess Pwn wrote:

@graystone

Why is that dumb? It prevents them from needing to rewrite the item for Monks and Brawlers. How would you have liked it phased to indicate that it raised the Brawlers unarmed strike the same way it boosts a monks without needing to change the item description at all?

Chess pwn. What do monk levels DO for the robes? They stack with the 5 levels that the robe gives. If monk levels don't stack with brawler, then those levels the robe granted are USELESS. That makes it totally, 100% dumb for an example since you really CAN'T use the monk levels from the item.

Remember where you said "most of them wont stack."? If it can't stack then the item isn't using your level as monk ones. hence it's uselessness as an example.


The brawler levels count as monk levels for items. So the monk robe would allow them to effectively stack for fast movement and unarmed strike damage only. This makes a monk robe very powerful for a brawler.


Combining class abilities not specified to work, and a magic item specified to work are very different. Since they have specific wording that they "count as monk" for "magic items with different effects for monks."

martial training:
At 1st level, a brawler counts her
total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels
for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

She also counts as
both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that
have different effects based on whether the character has
levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk’s
robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally
granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely
Stunning Fist.

monk's robes:

When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk(brawler), her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk(brawler) of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.

So a brawler counts as monk and has it's AC and unarmed strike damage increase 5 level since she is counting as a monk for this magic item.

While this

brawler unarmed strike:
brawler also deals more damage with her unarmed
strikes than others, as shown on Table 1–5: Brawler. The
unarmed damage values listed on that table are for Medium
brawlers.

and

monk unarmed strike:
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks.

Have nothing to indicate a reason for these to stack.

So graystone, Class abilities don't stack unless says it does. Brawlers count as monk for magic items. that's why monk robes work and monk levels don't.


So again I say that monk levels don't stack unless you get them from an item? Sorry, but something is screwy there. I hope it's not meant to work that way as monk levels can sometimes stack and sometimes not.


In general, unless something says it stacks it doesn't. Since the Brawler specifically says that the Monk Robes work for it, it can be used. It does not say that Monk/Brawler abilities stack in general, so they don't unless stated otherwise. While it's a perfectly acceptable and reasonable house rule, I do not believe it is RAW for them to stack.


Faq'd


No, they went out of their way to say this stuff wasn't stacking.


graystone wrote:
So again I say that monk levels don't stack unless you get them from an item? Sorry, but something is screwy there. I hope it's not meant to work that way as monk levels can sometimes stack and sometimes not.

There are no stacking of levels!

The monk's robes don't give monk levels. It says the Monk, in this case the brawler since it's counting as monk, Is treated 5 levels higher for unarmed strikes and AC. Well the brawler has both of those.

Doing it this way is the same as if they didn't have that line and changed monk's robes to say, "a monk or brawler" whenever it uses the word "monk." If they had done that would you be having a problem with it?

Second, there's nothing screwy because it's what the rules say. Count for these things and not these things. Else why can't my wizard and sorcerer caster levels stack? They both get boosted by things that boost arcane caster level?


Chess Pwn wrote:
graystone wrote:
So again I say that monk levels don't stack unless you get them from an item? Sorry, but something is screwy there. I hope it's not meant to work that way as monk levels can sometimes stack and sometimes not.

There are no stacking of levels!

The monk's robes don't give monk levels. It says the Monk, in this case the brawler since it's counting as monk, Is treated 5 levels higher for unarmed strikes and AC. Well the brawler has both of those.

Doing it this way is the same as if they didn't have that line and changed monk's robes to say, "a monk or brawler" whenever it uses the word "monk." If they had done that would you be having a problem with it?

Second, there's nothing screwy because it's what the rules say. Count for these things and not these things. Else why can't my wizard and sorcerer caster levels stack? They both get boosted by things that boost arcane caster level?

"If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of 5 levels higher." It's adding 5 monk levels to your monk levels. Sure sounds like stacking to me. The robes are adding monk levels just like actual monk levels would. i'm not seeing a difference.


Well graystone if you can't see a difference from what I've shown I don't know if there's any hope for you that you will, from me at least. You seem to have ignored my examples. You've not addressed any questions I've posed to you, which were in hopes to help you understand what was happening. You've then continued to say how you don't see this making sense, while my points and examples shows how and why it works and makes sense according to the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand.


I feel the same way. The robes are clearly adding monk levels to your monk levels but actual monk levels do nothing? Everything you said about "a monk or brawler" doesn't matter. the end result is the same; adding monk levels to a brawler for damage.

As to "The monk's robes don't give monk levels.", it does for damage and fast move. that's exactly what it says.

S"econd, there's nothing screwy because it's what the rules say": I'm saying it's screwy BECAUSE the rules say that. adding 'magic' levels but not real levels doesn't make any sense to me.

As to questions:

"Else why can't my wizard and sorcerer caster levels stack?" If you had an item that added sorcerer levels to my wizard casting, then there would be a parallel. Since we don't

"They both get boosted by things that boost arcane caster level?" Is there an item that calls out granting levels to one class that worked with the other. For instance an item that lets you cast your sorcerer spells 4 levels higher that stacks with the wizard? that's the parallel.

What you seem to be missing is it isn't a generic bonus to damage, but an actual levels of monk for damage and fast move. For me it's odd they are monks for magic monk levels but not actual monk levels.


Look, read the monk robes but replace the first two instances of monk with brawler

When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in Brawler, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a Brawler of five levels higher.

Now if Monk's robe said that would you have any issue?

Also I see the reason you're not understanding my example. It comes from your view of what the monk's robes are doing and how they are supposed to interact with brawlers.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Look, read the monk robes but replace the first two instances of monk with brawler

When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in Brawler, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a Brawler of five levels higher.

Now if Monk's robe said that would you have any issue?

Nope, but that isn't what the book says. Brawler counts as fighter and monk for feats and items so you can replace the FIRST part with brawler. Nothing in the ability states that you alter the gained monk levels into brawler ones. It'd read 'If the wearer has levels in Brawler, her AC and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of 5 levels higher.'

Chess Pwn wrote:
Also I see the reason you're not understanding my example. It comes from your view of what the monk's robes are doing and how they are supposed to interact with brawlers.

Yep. Martial Training doesn't alter the extra 5 monk level to damage. It ONLY alters your actual brawler levels to count as monk or fighter.

In essence it does the same for damage and fast move as adding 5 actual monk levels would. Even if this is how it's meant to work, adding magic monk levels and not actual monk levels will always sound odd to me.


Quote:

"Else why can't my wizard and sorcerer caster levels stack?" If you had an item that added sorcerer levels to my wizard casting, then there would be a parallel. Since we don't

"They both get boosted by things that boost arcane caster level?" Is there an item that calls out granting levels to one class that worked with the other. For instance an item that lets you cast your sorcerer spells 4 levels higher that stacks with the wizard? that's the parallel.

But prestige classes add levels that could go to either class. So if their arcane can increase spell levels why can't my wizard boost my sorcerer?

At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. Doesn't ... except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

So that's "increasing arcane caster level" So if it's increasing effective caster level, and my wizard has a caster level, why can't my wizard's stack with the sorcerers' caster level?

This is the same argument you're making.

My monk has Improved unarmed strike progression, and my brawler has an Improved unarmed strike progression. So they should stack. And since there's an item that boosts the monk's progression by 5, and Brawler's list that item as an example of applying to it, this means that my monk's progression should boost my brawler's. Thus meaning that my wizard should boost my sorcerer's caster level.

"She also counts as
both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that
have different effects based on whether the character has
levels in those classes"

Now since it says the brawler counts as a monk for magic items that have different effects mean that the monk's robes increase the brawler's levels because the different effect is increasing your level for those two abilities by 5 rather than giving you the lv5 abilities.

Also where are you getting monk's robes boost the monk's fast move?

graystone wrote:
As to "The monk's robes don't give monk levels.", it does for damage and fast move. that's exactly what it says.


Also graystone would you say that a brawler needs a level of monk to benefit from the stunning fist feat?

"A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk."

So it says a monk may do it more for it's monk level. So according to my understanding of your view, the brawler has a monk level but wouldn't replace the first monk, since it's saying monk attempts and not tied to monk level. So even if he was a monk he could use it more often, but if he's not he can't do it more often. Is that correct? since it's increasing a monk's attempts, just like increasing the monk's unarmed strike.


Chess Pwn wrote:

I think you'd add have of one to the other and do it the other way too and then pick the highest. Just like currently, monk has 1d6 brawler has 1d8 you just choose the better one. This is part of the redundant abilities they mention, saying things don't stack unless specifically says it does.

I don't think I quite understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that, with Monastic Legacy on a multiclassed character with Monk and Brawler, that you would add half of the lesser leveled class to the other? So a Monk 3/Brawler 7 would add half of the 3 Monk levels? That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to argue that the class features stack. They don't. At least not naturally. If I'm not mistaken, feats tend to overwrite other rules.

Shouldn't Monastic Legacy work like the following; Monk 3 / Bralwer 7 would have the unarmed damage of a level 13 Monk - 3 Monk levels, 7 Brawler levels counting as Monk levels, and 7 Brawler levels counting as Fighter levels which is halved down to 3. 3 + 7 + 3 = 10?

This isn't the class features stacking - This is calculating unarmed damage based off of the Monastic Legacy feat with the mechanics of the Brawler's Martial Training feature. It just so happen to refers to the unarmed damage of the Monk.


Kyrrion wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

I think you'd add have of one to the other and do it the other way too and then pick the highest. Just like currently, monk has 1d6 brawler has 1d8 you just choose the better one. This is part of the redundant abilities they mention, saying things don't stack unless specifically says it does.

I don't think I quite understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that, with Monastic Legacy on a multiclassed character with Monk and Brawler, that you would add half of the lesser leveled class to the other? So a Monk 3/Brawler 7 would add half of the 3 Monk levels? That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to argue that the class features stack. They don't. At least not naturally. If I'm not mistaken, feats tend to overwrite other rules.

Shouldn't Monastic Legacy work like the following; Monk 3 / Bralwer 7 would have the unarmed damage of a level 13 Monk - 3 Monk levels, 7 Brawler levels counting as Monk levels, and 7 Brawler levels counting as Fighter levels which is halved down to 3. 3 + 7 + 3 = 10?

This isn't the class features stacking - This is calculating unarmed damage based off of the Monastic Legacy feat with the mechanics of the Brawler's Martial Training feature. It just so happen to refers to the unarmed damage of the Monk.

No, the only time a brawler has a monk level is for feat prereqs. Also when you look at a feat from the brawler class you view the whole thing so.

Monk:
Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk(example brawler) to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage. This feat does not make levels in classes other than monk count toward any other monk class features.

Brawler:
Add half the levels you have in classes other than brawler(example monk) to your brawler level to determine your effective brawler level for your base unarmed strike damage. This feat does not make levels in classes other than brawler count toward any other brawler class features.

So even though it effects both classes they are separate. The important part of the brawler's martial training is seeing when does she count as what.

"She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has
levels in those classes" means that in the wording of a feat, you can replace brawler for any fighter and monk that you see in the description. Since she only counts as them for receiving a different effect, Not counting as both for the effect or bonus of the effect.


Chess Pwn wrote:
But prestige classes add levels that could go to either class. So if their arcane can increase spell levels why can't my wizard boost my sorcerer?

That's not what the item is doing though. it's adding a classes level NOT a generic level. The feat is like the winter witch prestige class adding witch levels and you're trying to add them to wizard.

Chess Pwn wrote:
My monk has Improved unarmed strike progression, and my brawler has an Improved unarmed strike progression. So they should stack. And since there's an item that boosts the monk's progression by 5, and Brawler's list that item as an example of applying to it, this means that my monk's progression should boost my brawler's. Thus meaning that my wizard should boost my sorcerer's caster level.

Nope! My reply was to monk and brawler's unarmed damage NOT stacking, I was saying that it doesn't make sense that the item allows stacking but you couldn't stack them normally.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Also where are you getting monk's robes boost the monk's fast move?

Sorry AC and damage. Was thinking of another item.


If Monk US and Brawler US are not from the same source and multi-classing doesn't continue the damage progression then Monk AC bonus and Brawler AC bonuses come from different sources as well.

This makes a difference when things like monk's robes are in play. Would be good to find out how this multi-class comb works together.

Dark Archive

If it doesn't stack, why not? Its not like there are non-compatible ways of punching things that are mutually exclusive to one another

Liberty's Edge

They don't stack but it'd be an entirely reasonable houserule.

Grand Lodge

How does monk's robe work with a brawler/monk?

Monks get untyped bonus to AC and brawlers get dodge bonus. So would the robe advance both of those since they're on seperate tracks?

E.g. Monk 5/Brawler 5 has +1 dodge +1 untyped.

With monk's robe would that be +2 and +2?


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Exocrat wrote:

How does monk's robe work with a brawler/monk?

Monks get untyped bonus to AC and brawlers get dodge bonus. So would the robe advance both of those since they're on seperate tracks?

E.g. Monk 5/Brawler 5 has +1 dodge +1 untyped.

With monk's robe would that be +2 and +2?

yes that's how it would work.


No they do not RAW

-Brawler: Martial Training (Ex)

At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A brawler may attack with fists, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a brawler may make unarmed strikes with her hands full. A brawler applies her full Strength modifier (not half ) on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually, a brawler's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A brawler's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A brawler also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than others, as shown on Table: Brawler. The unarmed damage values listed on that table are for Medium brawlers. A Small brawler deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large brawler deals more damage; see the following table.

Sacred Fist: Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a sacred fist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike.

This ability replaces focus weapon.

It is written in sacred fist but not brawler, either it was an over sight or it does not stack.

Shadow Lodge

They dont stack by raw, they "should" by raw cause it would cause serious problems when adjudicating damage.

Can you have 2 different types of damage for unarmed strikes?

I assume it was not clarified because brawler was not suppoused to be able to multiclass with monk initially, tought that changed later

Faqd anyway

Sovereign Court

ACG page 8 wrote:


Parent Classes:
...
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.

If it doesn't explicitly say they stack, it's pretty cut and dried they don't.


it's a redundant ability if you multiclass. Each has it's own progression and you could probably pick which you wanted or you might have to always use the highest. There's not really a problem with this at all.


The monk level equivalency enables the use of the monk's robe. However, when it gives the user the unarmed strike damage of a monk 5 levels higher, and the AC bonus of a monk 5 levels higher, it does exactly that -- it doesn't give the unarmed strike damage and AC bonus of a brawler 5 levels higher.

This matters because monk AC bonus increases faster than a brawler's, but also relies on wearing no armor. If the brawler with a monk's robe wears light armor, he only gets his brawler bonus, not the bonus of a monk 5 levels higher.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The monk level equivalency enables the use of the monk's robe. However, when it gives the user the unarmed strike damage of a monk 5 levels higher, and the AC bonus of a monk 5 levels higher, it does exactly that -- it doesn't give the unarmed strike damage and AC bonus of a brawler 5 levels higher.

This matters because monk AC bonus increases faster than a brawler's, but also relies on wearing no armor. If the brawler with a monk's robe wears light armor, he only gets his brawler bonus, not the bonus of a monk 5 levels higher.

Martial Training:

She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes

She's counted as a monk for the different effect of monk's robes. A monk robe increases unarmed strike damage and AC by 5 levels for a monk. So using martial training A monk robe increases unarmed strike damage by 5 levels and AC by 5 levels for a brawler. Because it counts as the monk for the different effect. Meaning, when it says monk, you can put in brawler. That is what happens when you count as something. They did this so instead of having to rewrite all the old gear and feats, they can just say that a brawler can use them too. It's the least work and less word changes then changing every feat and item to include brawler.


Just to kill this already dead thread even more,

Parent Classes

Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities.

Such abilities don't stack unless specified.

If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

deusvult wrote:
ACG page 8 wrote:


Parent Classes:
...
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.
If it doesn't explicitly say they stack, it's pretty cut and dried they don't.

+1

They clearly don't stack.

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