I hope that the AP shows that not every rebel is a good person, Demon worshipers and anarachists. After all, this can show some great moral choices for what does a paladin do when a normal noble family(perhaps Imodean but still nobles) are being hung up and facing mob justice, ala the french revolution?
We decapitated them. Way better when you have to make a statement.
And if your really want some french revolution gone horribly wrong, just go to Galt. Those guys are really friendly with strangers.
I'm very excited about this AP because I love Cheliax and had so much fun GMing CoT. Yet, reading the broad description of each book, I am getting worried that the storyline is getting too much like CoT.
In both AP, you are joining a rebel group wanting to overthrow the local government.
You get the support of the Hellknights (Torrent and the Rack).
You get the support of the local population.
You get the support of people outside the city (strix and mother fly)
You go to a masked ball/dinner to infiltrate the aristocracy.
You rule the city.
The going to Hell is a nice new thing though.
So when my players will ask me what is it about before committing to this 6 months (or more) Pathfinder game, I'm not sure that this description sounding like CoT 2.0 will get them excited.
We played in order: RotRL, CotCT, SeSK (Books 1-3), CoT, CC and we are now in Sk&Sh.
There are so many AP with original plots or twists that we haven't played...
What makes this AP truly unique? :(
I hope that the AP shows that not every rebel is a good person, Demon worshipers and anarachists. After all, this can show some great moral choices for what does a paladin do when a normal noble family(perhaps Imodean but still nobles) are being hung up and facing mob justice, ala the french revolution?We decapitated them. Way better when you have to make a statement.
And if your really want some french revolution gone horribly wrong, just go to Galt. Those guys are really friendly with strangers.
Well I want to see the revolution start to spiral out of control for a few reasons.
1.) revolutions tend to be chaotic events where things easily spiral out of control, look at the french and russian revolutions. yes pathfinder is escapism, but I like grittyness and darkness and I want to see that the revolutionaries are not all good.
After all wouldn't demon worshipers be vocal supporters of a revolution :P
2.) but it also gives truely noble characters ala paladins a chance to shine by allowing them opprutnites to sway a mob from mob justice and show true justice.
I'm very excited about this AP because I love Cheliax and had so much fun GMing CoT. Yet, reading the broad description of each book, I am getting worried that the storyline is getting too much like CoT.
In both AP, you are joining a rebel group wanting to overthrow the local government.
You get the support of the Hellknights (Torrent and the Rack).
You get the support of the local population.
You get the support of people outside the city (strix and mother fly)
You go to a masked ball/dinner to infiltrate the aristocracy.
You rule the city.What makes this AP truly unique? :(
Well.. CoT stumbled because players and PCs are led to believe at first that it will be 'Down with Thrune!' but then it went 'Clean up Westcrown!' Ruling the city (if the PCs did things right) comes around because most of the authority figures have fled/been killed off.
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I'm very excited about this AP because I love Cheliax and had so much fun GMing CoT. Yet, reading the broad description of each book, I am getting worried that the storyline is getting too much like CoT.
In both AP, you are joining a rebel group wanting to overthrow the local government.
You get the support of the Hellknights (Torrent and the Rack).
You get the support of the local population.
You get the support of people outside the city (strix and mother fly)
You go to a masked ball/dinner to infiltrate the aristocracy.
You rule the city.The going to Hell is a nice new thing though.
So when my players will ask me what is it about before committing to this 6 months (or more) Pathfinder game, I'm not sure that this description sounding like CoT 2.0 will get them excited.
We played in order: RotRL, CotCT, SeSK (Books 1-3), CoT, CC and we are now in Sk&Sh.
There are so many AP with original plots or twists that we haven't played...What makes this AP truly unique? :(
That was my initial reaction to the idea of the campaign, too - I was not against having another Cheliax AP but was wandering if it wouldn't have been better to go for another kind of story, if only to prove that it's a viable option.
However, looking at the outline of the actual adventures from upthread, I think that the story is different enough to justify it as a good choice. It has a very different pace as by part 4 the PCs declare an open resistance to Thrune, and start doing bigger stuff by part 5.
I would speculate that while Council of Thieves was about Westcrown, Hell's Rebels is about Cheliax.
reposting outline of adventures for ease of reference:
1) Hell's Bright Shadow New ruler of Kintargo (a bad, bad, bad man), PCs join the Silver Ravens who are the rebels. Ties to some kind of familiar magic item.
2) Turn of the Torrent PCs are building up their resistance forces, the Order of the Torrent is reacting to it.
3) Dance of the Damned Resistance is spreading the word and fighting against Cheliax and House Thrune. Must invade a masked ball.
4) [/b]Song of Silver PCs openly declare war and make Kintargo their own.
5) [b]Kintargo Contract PCs get hold of the contract Abrogail forged with Asmodeus and find loopholes (already described).
6) Breaking the Bones of Hell Can either make Kintargo a free city or things will be bad for everyone (depending how PCs do it). Will go into Hell at some point.
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I hope that the AP shows that not every rebel is a good person, Demon worshipers and anarachists. After all, this can show some great moral choices for what does a paladin do when a normal noble family(perhaps Imodean but still nobles) are being hung up and facing mob justice, ala the french revolution?
I'm in some ways tempermentally opposite you. I want groups like the hellknights treated as what they are; i.e. House Thrunes thugs with authority/SS. I want to see lawful EVIL on display i.e. law with no respect for human dignity. Where figures in authority "only follow orders" and do despicable things out of respect for authority.
Basically, it's an adventure path which Chaotic Good i.e. respect for human freedom and dignity is paramount. I happen to hate the trope that Lawful good is somehow a superior good (IRL I see it as the rarest alignment while LE is fairly common, particularly among corporate types). Anarchy and anarchists and free thinkers who can imagine something different can serve a positive role, if only in transition by imagining something different/better. Demon worshipers can exist as a potential dark side, but I want them to be a sideline.
Basically I want to hang the bastards in Milani's name and glory. If I could slay Asmodeus (the god who I see being the worst evil in Golorian) that would be a bonus.
Thing is, I can see a place in this AP for both our visions.
I would guess that the last volume involves the PCs retrieving and destroying the contract with house Thrune from the libraries of hell. I think the flavor for Contract Devils state that two copies of all infernal contracts exist, one of which is stored in Hell, and they are only void if both copies are destroyed.
I happen to hate the trope that Lawful good is somehow a superior good (IRL I see it as the rarest alignment while LE is fairly common, particularly among corporate types).
Well, it is for me personally, but that's because I'm an LN person who would like to be LG but effort. =)
I have a lot of trouble playing Chaotic alignments other than CN. My CG characters inevitably drift toward NG or LG and my CE characters inevitably drift to CN or LE.
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Mikaze, there will not be *any* kind of rebellion in Cheliax! We are all devout followers of our Almighty Lord Asmodeus and our Blessed Majestrix! Let me repeat: there is no unhappiness or discordance in the Most Glorious Empire on Golarion!
This has to be the silliest AP ever published, since the whole premise is so laughable! Every GM and player will declare that it will shatter their suspension of disbelief!
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That's it; all you guys are obviously dim-witted Andorans! I'm sending my imp squad to notify Richemar, and we'll see who'll get the last laugh!Look, you're welcome to take it up withSeversLictor Boneclaw. While he doesn't send flowers anymore, I still can't leave this tower and I doubt he would take to kindly to any transfer attempts. You should also know that I've taken up amateur note-covered archery and tend to aim at Eric Idle-shaped squires. Choose your messengers accordingly.
And I will, have no doubt; Severs is an old friend of mine, and a man whose devotion to his cause I respect greatly! By the way, I didn't know that Andoran "wizards" knew archery, since it is a widely-known fact that most Andorans won't probably even *recognise* a bow, much less know how to operate one! ;)
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It's funny, Asgetrion, The more I hear of this AP the more I desperately want to build a PC and play in a group that supports Cheliax during this rebellion in Kintargo.
You know, we PCs begin outside of Kintargo, maybe Egorian or an unnamed town -- and because we solve some cool local problem during the first volume -- are then commissioned to go solve Kintargo's problem.
And we try to one-up the HellKnights during each volume, who are also trying to quell the little rebellion.
If we PCs succeed then Kintargo remains wholly Chelaxian. If we the PCs fail then Kintargo gains its independence.
That's what the AP SHOULD be!
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Mikaze, there will not be *any* kind of rebellion in Cheliax! We are all devout followers of our Almighty Lord Asmodeus and our Blessed Majestrix! Let me repeat: there is no unhappiness or discordance in the Most Glorious Empire on Golarion!
"There is no war in Ba Sing Se."
"Chellish" was the third single off Zartdronna's fourth album, Like a Blasphemy.
Creative Director
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I like to think that LG, NG, and CG approaches will all be equally at home and exalted in this campaign. :)
Can't have a proper rebellion without a healthy mix of each, eh? (eyes Galt knowingly)
NG and LG characters will work fine here, but calling it a CG adventure path is really pretty spot on.
I think this AP could really show off the differences between the Good alignment, while still showing their similar goals overall. You could have honorable LG types trying to change the system and CG types chomping at the bit to tear down the whole corrupt edifice.
Mikaze, there will not be *any* kind of rebellion in Cheliax! We are all devout followers of our Almighty Lord Asmodeus and our Blessed Majestrix! Let me repeat: there is no unhappiness or discordance in the Most Glorious Empire on Golarion!
This has to be the silliest AP ever published, since the whole premise is so laughable! Every GM and player will declare that it will shatter their suspension of disbelief!
How'd that bloodstain get on your shirt?
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How'd that bloodstain get on your shirt?Mikaze, there will not be *any* kind of rebellion in Cheliax! We are all devout followers of our Almighty Lord Asmodeus and our Blessed Majestrix! Let me repeat: there is no unhappiness or discordance in the Most Glorious Empire on Golarion!
This has to be the silliest AP ever published, since the whole premise is so laughable! Every GM and player will declare that it will shatter their suspension of disbelief!
Er, that is, that is most definitely *not* blood... it's... strawberry jam! Yeah, I *did* eat pancakes... for lunch.
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If we PCs succeed then Kintargo remains wholly Chelaxian. If we the PCs fail then Kintargo gains its independence.
That's what the AP SHOULD be!
Rebellion against the lawful Majestrix? Do you people want Galt? This is how you get Galt!
Hear hear! Once again Set is speaking words of wisdom! Although he is from Osirion, as he a deity he knows how this works. Thou. Shalt. Not. Rebel!
The whole idea behind this AP is both revolting and unbelievable. I repeat, no *true* and patriotic Chelaxian would ever dream of raising arms against our Thrice-Blessed Majestrix and the Almighty Asmodeus! It's a laughable idea!
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All civilizations are under the balance of destruction, creation, order, and chaos. when society is under the iron shell of law it's insides become soft and rotten, requiring the law to be ripped asunder to cleanse the filth and allow for the to regrow clean and new once again.
What failed in Galt is that the cleansing of the rotten core never ended and the ability to once again establish a stable shell was never achieved.
Cheliax has sacrificed all for law, including the freedoms of it's people, such a system is stagnate and due to perish under the weight of time and changing climate of the world around them.
no culture, government, or people last forever. At some point they must change, adapt or resurrect or else it will fall, Like the Azlanti, Like The nations that rose and fell before us, and the many ethnicity of man who perish in time and the interaction of cultures.
In fact all Taldans are descendents of the Azlanti and the Keleshites, and all Chelaxians are descended of the Azlanti and the Ulfen people.
No race is truly pure, no government is without fault, and no culture is meant to last forever, but all things flow and change with the turn and tides of the river of existence, we must just have the wisdom to recognize the changes and embrace them.
False. I am without fault.
False. I am without fault.
then the fault you bear is pride for you lack humility.
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All I can say about the news of Hell's Rebels is...
I'll seeya all there, fighting the good fight against the Thrunies!
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...the Thrunies!
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<tinfoil>What if Cheliax ensures that Galt's revolution never ends so they have a nice cautionary tale about what happens if you try to unseat the Majestrix or fight the Hellknights? After all, if Andoran is the example, it makes revolution look a lot more attractive.</tinfoil>
False. I am without fault.then the fault you bear is pride for you lack humility.
Modesty is a virtue only to the weak.
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If we PCs succeed then Kintargo remains wholly Chelaxian. If we the PCs fail then Kintargo gains its independence.
That's what the AP SHOULD be!
Rebellion against the lawful Majestrix? Do you people want Galt? This is how you get Galt!
...Or Andoran .... Or Molthune....
The odds aren't bad, only the bedeviled government is!
Well...Andoran is more utopian than Galt (or at least not dystopian), and Molthune is more like Cheliax - if you take away the devil-worship and nobility, then emphasize the military.
Modesty is a virtue only to the weak.False. I am without fault.then the fault you bear is pride for you lack humility.
modesty is what allows fools like you to underestimate us, to turn your backs on us and allows a blade to slip easily between your shoulder blades. My the Asmodeus claim you for your sin. *Sneak Attack, Assassinate* And believe me I'm gentler then he will be.
DOWN WITH HOUSE THRUNE AND THE SERVANTS OF HELLS! RISE UP MEMBERS OF THE SILVER RAVEN! OUR REVOLUTION STARTS NOW!
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Isnt there a better place for fictional national pride, or at the least limit it to Sloganeering, i'm not reading fifty posts of 5,000+ words of fake propaganda, i hope im not the only one:)
Eeeeeeexcellent, yeeeessss.
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<tinfoil>What if Cheliax ensures that Galt's revolution never ends so they have a nice cautionary tale about what happens if you try to unseat the Majestrix or fight the Hellknights? After all, if Andoran is the example, it makes revolution look a lot more attractive.</tinfoil>
I think that's so much a given that it didn't even make the Conspiracy Theories thread. :)
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Every time I see this thread update, I get hopeful for more information. And then get disappointed that it's more forum roleplaying.
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Yo dawg, I heard you like roleplaying stuff, so we put some roleplaying stuff in your roleplaying stuff so you can roleplay when--
Anyway depending on the events of the AP it's going to be interesting to see the character combinations chosen for the PCs. I'm starting with a,
Half-Elf Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler,
Tiefling Two-Weapon (Sawtooth Sabre) Slayer,
Human Investigator,
and Changeling Cartomancer Hedge Witch.
Modesty is a virtue only to the weak.False. I am without fault.then the fault you bear is pride for you lack humility.
And the meek will inherit the earth!
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I'd like a General Leo from FFVI type character. Honorable soldier who finally sees the straw that breaks the camel's back and decides to stand up to his former superiors.
And then I'll come up with 20 more ideas in the next year and end up going with 20 because of an active imagination amd poor memory.
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It's not at all too late, you know, for the designers to develop this AP using a non-traditional design -- say, creating the entire AP with the thought that PCs choose to support either Cheliax OR the rebels.
It's never been done on the scale of an AP before -- heck, one would be hard pressed to find more than a couple published adventures ever where the PCs had to choose at the beginning which side of a conflict to be on.
This kind of AP design, supposing they could make it playable, would be a first (on this scale).
You know, kinda like Kingmaker was the first ever Sandbox on this scale.
Dev comments indicating this is a firmly anti-Thrune AP aside, I don't think this would be the choice for a "choose your side" AP - the rebels in Thrune-controlled Cheliax are outgunned badly enough that the "PCs side with Thrune" version should only be a single adventure long (at most).
A Taldor v. Qadira AP would probably work better as "choose your side" AP, as both kingdoms are neutral and on equal footing, allowing the PCs to tip the balance.
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I believe my bubble burst.
bastid!
Very good point.
I still think this would be a great "fight the rebels" AP.
Ah well.
EDIT:
Wait, No!
While I completely agree with your Taldor vs Qadira PC-choice-AP being a much better venue, after further thought your implied point about Cheliax being a weak choice because of the power of House Thrune, the Hellknights and Hell itself, doesn't hold water.
Think about the standard adventure design -- PCs are the good guys in a relatively good setting taking on the bad guys. They go fight bad guys in their lairs and come back to the "good" (or neutral) settlements to sell loot, buy gear and make friendly NPC contacts.
That's exactly what the Rebels in Hell AP *could* be:
PCs may choose to be the "good" guys who have to find and go to the rebels' lairs, defeat them, then go back to the "friendly" settlements to sell loot, buy gear and make NPC contacts.
- - - -
I think the design could be such:
Each volume presents NPCs on both sides, Thrune and Rebellion -- so whatever choice the PCs have made they have both allies (out of combat) and enemies.
Instead of the typical site-based "dungeon" locations that are controlled by the enemy, site-based areas in this AP could all be neutral-ground locations, places that no one side in the conflict uses as a base.
Thus whatever side the PCs are on, they go to that volume's locations and encounter whomever is against them. And go to other locations and encounter thos who they support to get gear & sell loot.
It could still work.
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I think that sort of set-up would require the rebel faction to already be starting out powerful - a force that has to be eroded away because it can actually hold its own in a throw-down battle.
I think part of the point of Cheliax is that any rebel forces that exist in the nation are NOT on that sort of footing.
Or rather, the rebel force that WAS on that footing is now known as Andoran =P
Your proposal could work for an AP set at the Cheliax-Andoran border (where Andoran's the underdog, but strong enough to be taken seriously), but I don't see it working inside Cheliax's borders - I don't find that to be a believable set-up. Cheliax should be able to curbstomp any rebellions outside of the extraordinary circumstance known as PC intervention.
Unless you go with the route that Cheliax is actually much weaker than it appears to the outside world, and Cheliax needs adventurer troubleshooters to put out all of the fires that're getting lit.
It IS possible that the PCs could both be rebels and having to fight rebels simultaneously. The PCs are part of a rebellion that wants freedom, but soon runs afoul of rebels that want to impose a truly horrifying tyranny that makes House Thrune look like responsible rulers by comparison (a comparison that House Thrune encourages whole-heartedly and repeatedly), and are much nastier and better armed than the rebels the PCs are with. After all, this is happening on our world even as we speak . . . .
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CoT could be Thrune positive. Westcrown used to be the capital until the civil war and has gone downhill since then. PCs could be agents sent down to whip it into shape by getting rid of lax nobles and Hellknights/Dottari. The Shadowcurse went from useful population control to a personal weapon of Ilnerik so he has to be sorted out, and of course the Mammon plot needs to be kicked to the curb.
Actually, even if you want to be anti-Thrune, the idea I posted above about being rebels and anti-rebels simultaneously could also work for Council of Thieves.
Council of Thieves seems to have in it the concept that you are being forced to choose the Devil You Know over the Devil You Don't Know, but this could put some meat on that idea and make it appear more up front, and the Devil You Don't Know might actually be more of a Daemon, Demon, or something like that . . . .
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Oooh, you witch! I'm gonna get back those priceless tomes you stole from our library! Richemar, she's here! Richemar!All I can say about the news of Hell's Rebels is...
** spoiler omitted **
I'll seeya all there, fighting the good fight against the Thrunies!
Bring it on, old man! The times, they are a'changin' and they're changin' faster than you can keep up.
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#ThrunesGoHome
"People called Thrune they go to the house"?