|
I finally picked up the ACG- it will be a day before I have time to read through all of it, but some of the racial favored class bonuses are ridiculously good. I'm assuming the elf arcanist fcb is a misprint,
I wouldn't. It adds to maximum Arcane Pool, not the amount you start with every day. That's of dubious benefit, since you can just spend and refill most of the time.
but humans and half-elves can add a spell from the cleric list to their shaman spell list (max one level lower than the highest they can cast). This gives a half-elf or human shaman access to summon monster spells and a lot of great spells that aren't on their spell list.
This is true, and really cool. The Half Elf Investigator bonus is also rather absurd +1/4 to all Inspiration rolls? That's kind of absurd. Is somebody showing some Varian Jeggare love by making Half Elf Investigators the best in the business?
One thing I like is the Draconic ability to turn into a large dragon at level 16. Seriously considering a Half-Orc Bloodrager for a character at some point; he just gradually takes on a more draconic shape as he gets more powerful until bam! Dragon to the face!
Has anyone tinkered with a Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple yet?
|
|
One thing I like is the Draconic ability to turn into a large dragon at level 16. Seriously considering a Half-Orc Bloodrager for a character at some point; he just gradually takes on a more draconic shape as he gets more powerful until bam! Dragon to the face!Has anyone tinkered with a Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple yet?
Per the rules...their Bloodlines don't stack. So, you get Bloodrager Bloodline stuff for your Bloodrager levels and Sorcerer Bloodline stuff for your Dragon Disciple levels (just like if you multiclassed Bloodrager and Sorcerer). This makes the mechanics...a bit odd. Add in that it only increases your spellcasting (no other class features), making it a less than ideal choice.
Now, if a GM lets it advance your Bloodrager Bloodline stuff, that'd be different.
I finally picked up the ACG- it will be a day before I have time to read through all of it, but some of the racial favored class bonuses are ridiculously good. I'm assuming the elf arcanist fcb is a misprint,I wouldn't. It adds to maximum Arcane Pool, not the amount you start with every day. That's of dubious benefit, since you can just spend and refill most of the time.
It's good for dipping, but it's just not the sort of thing you'd want to take every level. Which is good for an elf, as the +1 hp is hard to pass up considering their minus-con-with-low-hit-die selves.
This is true, and really cool. The Half Elf Investigator bonus is also rather absurd +1/4 to all Inspiration rolls? That's kind of absurd. Is somebody showing some Varian Jeggare love by making Half Elf Investigators the best in the business?
It's strong enough to want, but a +1 to inspiration at level 4 isn't that crazy. Nor is a +5 at level 20.
I finally picked up the ACG- it will be a day before I have time to read through all of it, but some of the racial favored class bonuses are ridiculously good. I'm assuming the elf arcanist fcb is a misprint...
It should be made more clear. I had the same initial reaction but it really isn't that bad. The Elf bonus gives them a +1 to their Maximum Resevior, not +1 per day. Really only an issue if the elf has a lot of magic to consume each day to build it up.
But as I started making an Elven Arcanist to take advantage of this I quickly realized that the bigger pool is generally pointless sense you just consume and refill when you need it on the fly.
|
|
It's strong enough to want, but a +1 to inspiration at level 4 isn't that crazy. Nor is a +5 at level 20.
With Combat Inspiration and an Inspired Weapon...that's +5 to hit and +10 damage potentially 15 times a day, or +5 to Saves the same number of times (actually, it's both all day every day at 19th level plus due to Improved Combat Inspiration). And +5 to basically all skills all the time (if you grab Expanded Inspiration and Underworld Inspiration).
Even at a more reasonable level 12 and with no Talents invested but Combat Inspiration, it's +3 to hit and +6 damage when using Inspiration in combat, or +3 to a Save, and +3 to all Knowledge skills all the time, and any other skill when you feel like it.
It's not quite enough to make non-Half Elf Investigators useless or anything, but it's really good, like verging on Human Barbarian Favored Class bonus good.
I finally picked up the ACG- it will be a day before I have time to read through all of it, but some of the racial favored class bonuses are ridiculously good. I'm assuming the elf arcanist fcb is a misprint...It should be made more clear. I had the same initial reaction but it really isn't that bad. The Elf bonus gives them a +1 to their Maximum Resevior, not +1 per day. Really only an issue if the elf has a lot of magic to consume each day to build it up.
But as I started making an Elven Arcanist to take advantage of this I quickly realized that the bigger pool is generally pointless sense you just consume and refill when you need it on the fly.
The Elven FCB actually works a bit with the Eldritch Font... seeing they are pretty much walking magical enegizers...
It's strong enough to want, but a +1 to inspiration at level 4 isn't that crazy. Nor is a +5 at level 20.With Combat Inspiration and an Inspired Weapon...that's +5 to hit and +10 damage potentially 15 times a day, or +5 to Saves the same number of times (actually, it's both all day every day at 19th level plus due to Improved Combat Inspiration). And +5 to basically all skills all the time (if you grab Expanded Inspiration and Underworld Inspiration).
Even at a more reasonable level 12 and with no Talents invested but Combat Inspiration, it's +3 to hit and +6 damage when using Inspiration in combat, or +3 to a Save, and +3 to all Knowledge skills all the time, and any other skill when you feel like it.
It's not quite enough to make non-Half Elf Investigators useless or anything, but it's really good, like verging on Human Barbarian Favored Class bonus good.
The +5 still doesn't strike me as being too powerful, since that still doesn't give a better attack bonus than a full BAB class of the same level. Sure it's a strong bonus, but you are giving up either 20 hp or 20 skill points to get it, and both of those would be worthwhile to an investigator.
I actually hadn't noticed inspired weapons. I would say the problem lies more with inspired weapons than the half-elf. That bonus is worth a lot more than a mere +1.
Something to keep in mind is that the bonus to an attack roll is individual to an attack. So, if you get 3 attacks in a round, you would need to use attack inspiration 3 times as well if you wanted the bonuses on every attack.
|
|
The +5 still doesn't strike me as being too powerful, since that still doesn't give a better attack bonus than a full BAB class of the same level. Sure it's a strong bonus, but you are giving up either 20 hp or 20 skill points to get it, and both of those would be worthwhile to an investigator.
That's on top of the +10 from Studied Combat, bear in mind. And the +1d8 from Inspiration. And any bonus from Extracts. Investigators actually have better combat bonuses than Fighters by quite a bit, even counting the -5 BAB.
+5 to hit and +10 damage is the equivalent of 15 Feats. Even counting it as only 1/5 of that amount due to the conditional nature, that's 3 Feats. Toughness is a single Feat.
I actually hadn't noticed inspired weapons. I would say the problem lies more with inspired weapons than the half-elf. That bonus is worth a lot more than a mere +1.
Eh. If you have combat Inspiration, for non-Half Elves, it's a conditional +2d6 or +2d8 to damage. You can get +1d6 non-conditionally, so that seems fair enough.
Something to keep in mind is that the bonus to an attack roll is individual to an attack. So, if you get 3 attacks in a round, you would need to use attack inspiration 3 times as well if you wanted the bonuses on every attack.
This is true, and why I noted it as situational damage, and the Half Elf as not a must-have Race, just a very good one. The bonus to skills can also be all skills every day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The idea of taking away abilities from archetypes to save print space is really making me wince.
What alternative would you propose, exactly? The book has a certain number of pages in it, each of a certain size. All the wishing and/or wincing in the world doesn't let you print beyond the size of the page.
It makes me wince when there aren't enough hours in the day to do everything I need to do too, but that won't make the day 30 hours long, either.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unfortunately, that can have pagefitting problems too. Say I've allocated a page for cleric archetypes. I have an archetype (A) that would fill three-quarters of the page, and another (B) that would fill half.
I can cut archetype A by 33%, or I can cut B by 50%. Or I can cut B entirely and pad the page by enlarging the art and expanding the flavor text, but filling that much of the page in that way is noticeable too.
Even worse, it's certainly possible that I already ordered art, and it happened to be for archetype B. Which means if I cut B entirely, the art doesn't really belong on the page anymore.
What alternative would you propose, exactly? The book has a certain number of pages in it, each of a certain size. All the wishing and/or wincing in the world doesn't let you print beyond the size of the page.
Not entirely sure on the logistics of Paizo's operations. So it depends. Something as simple as a note somewhere and a plain text document that expands on missing features wouldn't be particularly hard or time consuming to implement though.
I just don't see cutting the quality and functionality of your products to save some space to be a good solution.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Make sure the product doesn't hit layout until all text is complete; don't set the pagecount until it leaves layout. Really, for a book of this scope, it just doesn't make sense not to work with some kind of extra space margins.
That's a terrible idea. To use my earlier analogy of time management, you're saying not to make a schedule until the day is over, or not to make a budget until you're out of money. It doesn't work that way. Obviously, a budget can be adjusted, and a schedule deviated from, but you need to have one in the first place to get anything done.
You can't order text until you know roughly how long a section is going to be, either in pages or it's approximation in word count. (Nor can you add 'just one more page' to a book - A signature is 32 pages. It is possible to add 16 or 8 pages, but that costs more on a per-page basis than the 32 page signature. This is why Player Companions are 32 pages, Campaign Setting books are 64 pages, and AP volumes are 96 pages.) You know why paperback books have an irregular number of pages of advertising in the back? It isn't just to push the next book in the series. Those are pages that would otherwise be blank.
And it still doesn't address basic layout problems like I outlined above, where a chapter or major section would end partway through a page. You can't divide up one extra page between classes of archetypes, because the header needs to be at the top of the page. You can't add just one page to a chapter because the chapter opener is a spread, which means specifically that it needs to start on the left page. You can't give the Arcanist (for example) an extra page of archetypes, because it means every subsequent class in the chapter becomes front-and-back of a page instead a left-and-right spread.
Those kinds of things are why pagefitting and layout are jobs that require a skilled human.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd remove all the terrible feats and spells that are just there to take up page count and use the additional 1-3 pages completing the archetype section.
I'd also not rush a product through development so fast that it became a sub par product just because I want to sell it at Gencon.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd remove all the terrible feats and spells that are just there to take up page count and use the additional 1-3 pages completing the archetype section.
Okay. Which classes get an extra page, out of the 10 new and 18 old in the book? Or are you going to give them a paragraph each, letting that information dangle off to the next page and making header placement awkward? The publishing industry calls those things 'orphans' and they are considered to be bad.
And which feats and spells are there 'just to take up page count'? There are way easier and less error-prone ways to fill space than developing rules text. Perhaps you meant spells that are developed to fill a specific space on a page (i.e. "We need a spell of about 250 words, and the title has to be alphabetized between 'Pe' and 'Pr'")? I have no idea how many of those are actually created, but I'd like to give the developers enough credits that they try to create a spell that is interesting and useful within those constrainsts, because if they just want something no one would read twice they could just use Lorem Ipsum. Or perhaps you just like to assume any option that you don't personally think is worthwhile must have been created for bad reasons?
Also, you'll note that if something is created to fill a space, it is because that space needed to be filled. The feats chapter can't just end halfway down a page, for instance. Well, it could, if you filled that space with a half-page art, but that still doesn't let you start the next chapter a half-page earlier.
I'd also not rush a product through development so fast that it became a sub par product just because I want to sell it at Gencon.
Do you know how important Christmas (and the associated season) is to the American retail economy? 'Black Friday' is called such because for many retailers it is the day of the year where they become profitable (i.e. out of the red and into the black.) Video game studios can live or die based on if their product reaches stores in time for Christmas.
Gen Con is a big deal for tabletop RPGs. And Paizo, among may other things, is a business. You might prefer that they ship mid-september or something, but showing up to Gen Con with that year's release is a big deal.They can't finish later - the only alternative is to start earlier. But I think you can agree that running another year in advance of the release schedule is unfeasible. Perhaps they should havecut one of the rounds of playtesting to get more development time. Would that have been better?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dude, turn down the defense force. This is a thread for knee jerk reactions not god worship of the book you assisted in development.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's more explaining the reasons for why things happened, since uneducated knee-jerk reactions are just about the worst kind there can be.
Pointing out that cutting the foot off a blanket to sew tot he top doesn't make it larger isn't 'defense force'. I also don't see how that could be considered worship, frankly.
The ACG has problems. (So has every other Gen Con release.) I'm not going to argue that. But 'suggestions' that ignore physical realities aren't helpful. It's like saying the fix to having a car with bad mileage is that they should make one that runs on water.
When I asked how you would divide up your 1-3 extra pages, I wasn't being sarcastic or rhetorical. You have the ACG, and you cut the spells and feats you feel are least-worthwhile, and you've removed a couple thousand words from the Spells and Feats chapters. How do you re-allocate that space to the Archetypes chapter? The only answers I have to that question are bigger problems than cutting a supporting ability from a few archetypes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I dunno if anything excuses anti-dodge, anti-mobility, Divine Peotection, archetypes that replace classes (Daring Champion I'm looking at you), ect.
Well I do know what does excuse all that. A development cycle that was way to crunched on time.
But 'suggestions' that ignore physical realities aren't helpful.
I don't think it'd be that infeasible to have a plaintext PDF one can download that includes some of the cut content, especially if you stick with the digital only route (given that it's only text and not a part of the core product).
It's certainly not the most elegant idea, but the current solution wasn't entirely elegant either and it wouldn't be tremendously expensive or time consuming (and is something that could be done in the now rather than simply ruminating on could-have-beens).
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not worship at all. Ross is merely stating facts.
As a graphic designer by profession who used to work on newspaper and magazine layouts, I know exactly what he's talking about.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Ross: interesting; you list some things I didn't really know or think about. The physical realities of publishing aren't something everyone knows about I guess.
That said, while there's some awesome in this book, it's also been the most eyebrow-raising thing yet for me. There's quite a few "what were they thinking" bits in it.
I understand that there was time pressure and all that, but on the other hand, by now Paizo isn't all that new anymore, and I do expect them to have a process ready for quality control. Basically, they should've been prepared for that time pressure. And I'm seeing things that make me wonder about that.
Ugh. I really wanted to make an Empiricist with a gun... but both archetypes replace swift alchemy. Can't make a Steel Hound Sleuth either for the same reason.
What's worse, Blind Shot isn't even that cool. Ah well. Really wish the class had gotten firearm proficiency baseline. It's pretty damn iconic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So this is what a Sean-less product looks like, eh? :P (Kidding)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So this is what a Sean-less product looks like, eh? :P (Kidding)
Incidentally I found that a lot of SKR material in this book to be well written, coherent, and thought out. I dunno if he made the Teamwork feats, but those aren't half bad.
Of all the lead writers who designed the classes I actually think Sean's were most coherent and capable of occupying a niche.
Actually scratch that: You can't combine any investigator archetypes except for infiltrator with sleuth or steel hound because every single archetype other said infiltrator replaces swift alchemy. Ugh.
Add pages and do it right? Unlike your comparison where you literally can't add time, you can add pages. It's more like deciding you want to save $5 for popcorn so you don't lend your friend a buck to get in the movie too. The only reason not to add pages of completed content is profitability, and by all means I want them successful, but not by selling unfinished products.
I've outlined several reasons adding pages is problematic. You are right that it isn't impossible, but adding a single page to a physical product can't really be done. And even if the page count was bumped up by 16 or 32, that doesn't necessarily let you get space where you need it, due to the limitations of layout, completely outside of the production costs of making a book that is physically bigger.
Generally, pages are added in sets of 4, since each spread that is printed takes up 2 pages and is double-sided. Adding 2 pages would essentially be an insert (good luck getting it to stay in!) and adding 1 page I guess would just be an insert which was only printed on one side (which is still like having two pages).
BTW, I was so happy when I heard about the Bard Flame Dancer (Archetype). My mistake.
At level 8 he adds burning hands, flaming sphere, and fireball to his list of bard spells known (as 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells, respectively). This ability replaces dirge of doom.
First: Flaming sphere pretty much suck, especially at level 8.
Second: Burning hands is a nice utility spells at lower levels, and even up to level 5, but at level 8 it’s pretty much obsolete.
And getting fire ball at level 8? Wizards get it at level 5 and Sorcerers get it at level 6.
Maybe they meant Burning Hands at 2nd, Flaming Sphere at 5th, and Fireball at 8th.
What was so bad about the Lore Warden? It was one of the few fighter archetypes worth investing in.It replaces defensive abilities with more offensive ones which stack with the baseline offensive abilities the Fighter already gets.
Imagine, if you will, a there were a 'Genocidal Rager' archetype for the Barbarian that replaces Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense for the option to select a Favored Enemy that scales, and at some point, a second Favored Enemy, and that while you are fighting your Favored Enemy, your rounds spent raging don't count towards your total rage rounds.
That would be a strictly superior combat option to the Barbarian, and would be a 'bad' archetype in that the trades it makes aren't balanced.
Yes, make that Archetype!
Yes, make that Archetype!What was so bad about the Lore Warden? It was one of the few fighter archetypes worth investing in.It replaces defensive abilities with more offensive ones which stack with the baseline offensive abilities the Fighter already gets.
Imagine, if you will, a there were a 'Genocidal Rager' archetype for the Barbarian that replaces Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense for the option to select a Favored Enemy that scales, and at some point, a second Favored Enemy, and that while you are fighting your Favored Enemy, your rounds spent raging don't count towards your total rage rounds.
That would be a strictly superior combat option to the Barbarian, and would be a 'bad' archetype in that the trades it makes aren't balanced.
Er... that's actually a really bad archetype from a design standpoint. One, in theory, should swap abilities on a like for like basis. So if you swap out a defensive ability, make sure the new ability is also defensive.
A 'Genocidal Rager' as mock-detailed above would be a strictly superior combat option than the standard Barbarian class because it gets Rage bonuses, Favored Enemy bonuses, and it also doesn't spend rage rounds when attacking his favored enemy. There really wouldn't be much of an incentive to *not* pick the Genocidal Rager over the standard Barbarian, or even many other archetypes because the Genocidal Rager will kill his enemies extremely quickly.
From a design standpoint, the Lore Warden is a bad archetype because it swaps defensive abilities for offensive abilities. The Thundercaller and Sound Striker Bard both do the same thing, but with non-combat abilities for powerful combat abilities.
Some minor annoyances:
No Blessings for Scalykind and Void Domains. Which I find odd - sure, they're only on non-core deities, but it's only 2 domains to finish covering the non-core deities as well as the core ones.
No Favored Class Options for non-Core races. Fully understandable with space and development time reasons, though, given (looking at the ARG) 16 Featured and 14 Uncommon races.
Hopefully they (and some other crunch for non-core material w/ ACG classes) get covered in something else soon.
Nicos:
Yes.
Primalist doesn't remove any Bloodrager abilities (just modifies Bloodlines) so it is compatible with all the other archetypes (as none of them removes Bloodlines).
What am I missing? The only offensive abilities I recall were bonuses to combat maneuvers, which many people will tell you are a subpar option when compared to just killing your opponent more quickly.
|
While, from a design standpoint the Lore Warden may be a bad archtype, in reality it is one of the better archtypes that Paizo has ever created. It takes a base concept, and in a very overall balanced, (but also fun and cool way) pushes it to do something very different, but still within the general realm of the original concept and theme. It allows for something that is very difficult to accomplish with the base class, but it's not so good that is a must have for all Fighters.
Paizo could probably do well by trying out some more bad archtypes from a design standpoint, in my opinion. And to be honest, I don't really recall it having a great many offensive options.
What am I missing? The only offensive abilities I recall were bonuses to combat maneuvers, which many people will tell you are a subpar option when compared to just killing your opponent more quickly.
Oh, I totally agree with it. I think Lore Warden is fantastic. The problem is, the Lore Warden is basically *the* best maneuver character in the game. Some people may be able to do certain maneuvers better (Tetori), or can get situationally better bonuses (Strength Surge), but, for the most part, no one really beats a Lore Warden on maneuvers.
The problem, comes from whenever someone introduces an archetype for maneuvers, or a class for maneuvers, it always boils down to "This class is decent, but it's not nearly as good as the Lore Warden."
So, since no one seems to beat the Lore Warden in maneuvers, and because the Lore Warden trades defensive abilities (armor training and bravery) for offensive abilities; the Lore Warden is deemed a 'too powerful' archetype. Especially since the Lore Warden trades rather lack-luster defensive abilities for an offensive ability that is much more powerful. It also violates the general guideline of trading a like for a like in archetype design. It's only a guideline though, and not one that is super strictly followed either.
Really, when it comes down to it, Lore Warden is a problem for PFS, just as Crane Wing was. With PFS focusing so much on 'humanoid' opponents of medium size, a class like Lore Warden can unleash some serious havoc on society combats. Sure, he may not be killing them, but he can make it so the enemies have no chance of hurting the party either.
But there are others that modify for example bloodline feats.
Not sure if bloodline feats have to be taken as a separated ability.
Ok, to be more precise, the archetype rules are:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.
(APG pg. 72)
The Primalist alters the Bloodline Power class feature you get at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. Bloodline Feats are a separate class feature from Bloodline Powers, and so an archetype that changes them does not interfere.Blood Conduit does not change or replace any Bloodline Powers, so it is fully compatible with Primalist.
(Crossblooded Rager does change Bloodline Powers, so its compatibility with Primalist is more complicated, but as you're not looking into that I'll leave that aside).
You haven't really given any reasons why it can't be done right, only a few reasons why it might not have been. It is in fact entirely possible, plausible and reasonable to release a finished and quality product. <...snip...> Or at the very least remove references to abilities you cut. It reduces profit, but so does losing customers from poor quality products.
And it's not like GenCon is a surprise. They've published enough books to properly account for the timelines needed barring catastrophe. Just excuses for shoddy work.
But I'm talking about doing it right, not fixing it after. Expecting anything less is counter productive to yourself as a consumer.
I am not disagreeing with any of these points.
You can even add pages prior to print and release. Possibly even work on the layout so these extra paragraphs fit the format.
The page count of a book can change before publication, but there are several meaningful limitations, like needing to be added in powers of 2 (2, 4, 8, 16, 32) pages, and maintaining that spreads stay spreads, and not having 'orphans' overhanging a page. Or, since we're talking about 'crunch' problems, the amount of time involved in writing and developing multiple pages worth of material.
I am curious what you mean by 'work the layout', though. Altering the font size or margins on a few pages would look very strange. It is possible to wrangle art size, but only within certain limits. What are you suggesting?
I assumed the books have so much large art because it makes it easier to shrink the art to add text for later editions.
From a design standpoint, the Lore Warden is a bad archetype because it swaps defensive abilities for offensive abilities.No. From a design standpoint the Lore warden is a great archetype because it add a valuable, cool, themathic AND balanced option to the game.
From a design standoint is bad to trade mediocre abilities for mediocre abilities and make a mediocre class into a mediocre archetype, as have happened so many times with rogue archetypes.
Er... no. As a general rule of thumb when it comes to archetype design, you are supposed to swap like for like. That's what every designer has said when asked for advice on building archetypes. Sometimes it's Ok to swap it for something else, but you should try not to increase it's overall power.
I am not saying I agree with this statement. I honestly think the Lore Warden is a great archetype. But, from what I've read/heard other designers (including SKR and Jason Bulmahn) say, is that the Lore Warden is too good as an archetype because it violates the general rule of thumb, and tends to increase the over all power of the class.
The Lore Warden can deal damage just as well as the basic fighter can, and it's also better than the Fightr at all combat maneuvers. If he does it right, he'll have nearly the same AC as the Fighter, more skill points, and more combat potential.
In many ways, the Lore Warden is completely superior to the baseline Fighter, the only aspect the Lore Warden really loses in, is the capability to wear heavy armor. Which isn't much of a problem for the Lore Warden as he can function fairly well in light armor.