After all these years, I still don't understand the Bard.


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I've been playing since 2nd edition way back when I was a kid, and the one and only class in the game that still to this day utterly confounds me is the Bard. All of the Bard's ability's are predicated on some type of musical or performance based action, which in itself can be cool, but when it comes to adventuring and combat is a little bonkers...

Spells require a verbal component (Singing or reciting something), and in the case of Bardic performance, actually putting on a performance.

Am I wrong in interpreting this as the Bard literally breaking into song during combat to cast a spell, or breakdancing to defeat his or her enemies like an 80's music video in the case of Bardic performance? It all seems so silly... Mechanic wise, how does someone maintain a performance as a free action?

It could very well be that I'm missing something obvious here; my only exposure to the gaming community has just been my group of friend that I've played with. I've never posted online before, but since I've started up again with Pathfinder, I've been set on settling some of these old WTF questions. Pathfinder has done an excellent job of tweaking the classes, but the Bard remains just freaking weird to me... which sucks because a lot about the class I find cool- Jack-of-all-trades, performer, collector of lore, etcetera...

Anyway, could someone clear this up for me. Is the Bard class as goofy as I think, or am I missing something. Thanks in advance for indulging me here! :)


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Most performances just require a verbal or somatic component. Note that does not mean you need to "perform" in any traditional sense. Most of the "performances" are completely divorced from the perform skill. Essentially you can flavor what you are doing any way you like.

As far as Versatile Performance, you aren't actually performing either, just using those perform ranks as if they were the other skill.


i've always like my bards with oratory as their main perform skill - think samuel L jackson and the ezekiel speech in pulp fiction.

another NPC i made had a special weapon that doubled as an instrument so he could produce notes of varying types depending on how he swung his sword.

its as goofy as you want to make it i guess! its easy to think of elan from order of the stick when you think bard, but thats a missed opportunity in my opinion.

of course not every class is going to interest every person either.


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Imagine the drummers that keep an army marching in an organized way and send communications across the army. With some tweaking, that could be a bard.
Imagine the duelist that's always distracting the enemies with quips and generally drowning them out. That could be a bard.
Imagine the know-it all professor that makes you want to hear more about obscure cultures (and know exactly what to do about what you're facing right now). That could be a bard.
Imagine the musician with a haunting melody that makes you forget your limits and your worries. That could be a bard.

Yes, as you fight, you have something that focuses your allies to the task on hand, whether it's a change in tempo from the drums, well-timed jokes, or even relevant knowledge. When they cast, the tempo/topic changes again, and while Wizards/Sorcerers use smaller, precise movements to map their spells somatic components, the bard brings his whole body into the movements, whether it's air conducting the song, miming the illusion that's coming into shape, running fancy show off tricks with the drumsticks and exaggerated hand drumming (think when rock/metal drummers are showing off), or even pantomiming slapstick comedy at the poor helpless sap.

Or he could just be that weird bawdy song singer/breakdancer. Whatever's going to make it fun for you.


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I like the imagery of a Bard being like the Dovahkiihn from Skyrim. Inspire Courage is you wielding the power of the voice to strike down your enemies.


Versatile performance is basically the idea that they use related abilities to accomplish the same thing. For example, the heart of acting is convincing others that you are someone/something that you are not, so it's not far off from Bluff. Some of the others are more tenuous, granted, but that's the basic idea.

As for the performances, that's something I've had trouble visualizing myself, until I played a Dervish Dancer bard. The idea of dancing as a form of combat is pretty established, and made sense to me. Then, I thought "why not someone who sings or chants as they fight?" That works pretty well. Maybe they recite a haiku with each strike they land. There's ways to make it make sense.

Admittedly, a bard playing an accordion, or lute, or pianica in the middle of combat doesn't really work, but maybe they have grooves on their sword so it makes a melodious whistle as they swing? Perhaps a shield that chimes when struck? Even for instruments, there are options.


What confuses me is how a lot of Bardic performances can be a simple as a free action to maintain. Maybe a performance with an audile component could be as simple as continuing to hum a tune and visual could entail precise movement? But regardless, how would any of that not need something like a concentration check at least? The character is deliberately maintaining something that requires some degree of skill.


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That probably falls under if they made it so you had to keep performance up with a standard, or even a move action, no one would want to play it. It's a fun class, but if I had to give up my actions to do nothing but say "I keep playing my piccolo", I would choose something else.


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You're standing next to the guy who can summon hot angels and succubi and then lord his power over them in his magical pleasure dome and the other guy who is so tough he can literally fall to earth from orbit and survive with no ill effects. I imagine you can find a way to do some sort of rote maneuver without thinking about it.


Remember that these are also magical effects the bard probably uses some of their magic to keep it going. In my head the bard starts to hum a tune,sing a song, play a cord, give a speech(using the standard action to start) and then they use their magic to have it linger and continue as they do other things.


For example, had a bard that "set the beat" for his compatriots. He noticed that people work together best when in synch and in rhythm with eachother.

"And one and two and SWING and three and CAST and four and .." Basically a battle conductor. Keeps everyone working together like a well oiled machine.

I've also had the master orator, had one that sings. Think one of these two.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1csr0dxalpI


Reciting verses from memory is something that can become automatic and thoughtless. Humming or whistling are things people often do without even thinking about it.

Movement is assumed as part of combat, even if it's just dodging around your square to avoid attacks, so rhythmic movement isn't going to take much additional effort..


So pretty much the mechanics as written let the player and the GM fill in the details and flavor of it. I'm cool with that; there are plenty of ways to make it work in-game. My main concern was not understanding if there was a requisite action I was missing... singing, square dancing... needed that I didn't get how it could be fitted into the round.


chaoseffect wrote:
You're standing next to the guy who can summon hot angels and succubi and then lord his power over them in his magical pleasure dome and the other guy who is so tough he can literally fall to earth from orbit and survive with no ill effects. I imagine you can find a way to do some sort of rote maneuver without thinking about it.

Actually, you're standing next to the guy who can shoot Magic Missiles out of his hands a few times a day and can die if he gets hit once with an arrow.


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It's like Justin Bieber just a bit of a line and it gets into your head and enrages you until you crush all before you in an effort to get the lamentations of your victims to drive the cursed noise out of your head.


Just choose performance skills that make sense to you. I don't have any trouble at all visualizing a bard singing and fighting at the same time.

One playing an instrument and fighting doesn't work as well for me. It makes me think it's a comedy bit.

As was said above, fighting and dancing do work, as do fighting and orating. To me, fighting and acting are a bit of a stretch, but fighting and slapstick comedy do work. (IMO, of course.)

My bard will have skill with an instrument, but probably will not use it in combat. Doesn't mean I won't use it for bardic performance, just probably not in combat.


This is all making me think how fun a really evil mofo bard would be to play. Mocking every cut and blast an enemy endures as part of a performance.


I could actually wrap my head around bards in 2e, where they were basically MCed mage-thieves, without actually having to multiclass. I remember some FR novel mentioning a bard college, which could explain why all bards are musicians of some sort.

But then in 3e, bards became free-spirited spontaneous caster-rogues with a bit of cleric thrown in for good measure, I guess. But...where do bards come from? If they're trained, why are they spontaneous casters? If their spellcasting is natural, why are they all musical savants and preoccupied with random lore? Why are they the only arcane class that can heal?*

To this day, I don't get it.

*Don't get me wrong, I'm all for arcane healing, it's just weird that the bard is the only one.

Sovereign Court

Speaking strictly of 3E/PF the bard is like the adept NPC class. Thats why they have a little arcane and divine casting. Since the bard is supposed to be a jack of all trades I think this fits very well for the class.

Dark Archive

Joe Hex wrote:
This is all making me think how fun a really evil mofo bard would be to play. Mocking every cut and blast an enemy endures as part of a performance.

Now you're getting it.

Spoiler:
Every time I try to make a bard, I always feel like he won't be any fun to play and I give up half-way through. I really should try and stick to it one of these days.


Personally I do think that instruments do have their place, situationally. For performances like Inspire Courage where people just need to hear the performance, traditional "instruments of war" like drums, flute, bagpipes, and the like can carry across much larger distances than even a well trained voice. There really aren't rules for it in-game, but personally if I were GMing I'd take it into consideration whenever distance is a concern. I can hear bagpipes from about a mile away. Singing, not so much.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I could actually wrap my head around bards in 2e, where they were basically MCed mage-thieves, without actually having to multiclass. I remember some FR novel mentioning a bard college, which could explain why all bards are musicians of some sort.

But then in 3e, bards became free-spirited spontaneous caster-rogues with a bit of cleric thrown in for good measure, I guess. But...where do bards come from? If they're trained, why are they spontaneous casters? If their spellcasting is natural, why are they all musical savants and preoccupied with random lore? Why are they the only arcane class that can heal?*

To this day, I don't get it.

*Don't get me wrong, I'm all for arcane healing, it's just weird that the bard is the only one.

Alchemist and witch are also arcane healers.


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GM: The bandits approach you as they draw steel, Gwydion you're first to act, what do you do?

Round 1:
Me: I'll us a standard action to begin a bardic performance. I'll use Inspire Courage, granting my party a +1 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as a bonus vs fear effects.

My Bard:"Listen up you smelly dogs! You face Gwydion Tyrell - Duelist Extraordinaire, called Wind-Dancer, the greatest swordsman in Waterdeep!"

*the others take their turns*

Round 2:
Me: First I maintain my performance as a free action. Then I'll take a 5ft step forward, standing beside Ley'Leân, and I'll attempt a disarm maneuver on the bandit she's fighting. I succeed, he is now disarmed. Gwydion looks to the bandit fighting Derwent.

My Bard: "Watch your flank, you ungraceful ruffian! Hah! I claim your sword from your clumsy hands, you've got this Ley, GET STUCK IN THERE, FRIENDS! FIGHT!"

There are very few bardic performances that require a perform check. The other performances do not require music or song, only audible or visual components, which could be many things.

Bards are leaders, they are the ones who enable excellence in those they call ally. Bards are kings, drill sergeants, field commanders and strike-team leaders. They are also sometimes travelling minstrels, powerful adventurers enabling their parties and defeating their foes with the magic of music and the grace of the artistic gods, striking the ground like a wardrum, causing their opponents to tumble backwards. Or strike up a tune that heals as it fades.

The bard class can be interpreted in many ways, leaving the flavour entirely in the hands of the player, and it is by far my favorite class in the game.

-Nearyn


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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
If their spellcasting is natural, why are they all musical savants and preoccupied with random lore?

Because the idea of a bard comes to us from Celtic tribes, where a bard was a lore keeper who kept verbal history often in the form of songs. Also, the songs they sang were thought to have power, one legend says that an unpopular king was broken out in spots and sores after a bard sang a scathing satire about him.

In many folk beliefs and religious traditions alike, music is thought of as a way to commune with greater forces or channel power. The Bard class uses the concept of both the original Celtic bard, and the mysticism assigned to music.

The Exchange

Check out the Gonnagles from Terry Pratchets Nac Mac Feegle characters. They recite awful poetry and play music so out of tune it causes enemies ears to bleed. With a single word they can entitle the entire clan to warfare, though that's not overly difficult with the Nac Mac Feegle.

Until I read those Terry Pratchett books, I didn't understand Bards either.

After you've read the Tiffany Aching books from his series, which has the aforementioned Feegles, try readin Soul Music for how powerful music can really get.

Cheers


The classical bard adventurer was Orpheus from the ancient Greek tale of the Argonauts. He did just sit around playing his lyre and singing to save the Argonauts from the Sirens and inspire them with courage and skill to row faster through the Clashing Rocks and so on. And fascinated and charmed animals with music and the like. But he did pick up a sword and fight when they all went into combat.

And then there were medieval wandering bards with their lutes or pipes who traveled from inn-to-inn, sometimes picking pockets and other sorts of larceny, sometimes with fell magical powers, like the Pied Piper of Hamlin.

The class has been expanded to every type of explorer, but Orpheus and the medieval bard were at the core of the original concept.

You can do wacky things with it. A bard + a monk = a dancing, kicking ballerina.

Its kind of funny how every musician, actor, and so on is a Bard though in Golarion, instead of just a regular skilled musician or performer. Its kind of like making every other farmer a lvl1 druid.


Imagine a boxer's trainer giving him instructions between rounds. Some trainers simply tell him to keep using his jab because he had gotten away from utilizing it in the last round. Other trainers are incredibly animated and their instructions almost qualify as theatrical performances.

Once the next round starts, most trainers continue to yell instructions and encouragement. Often, their positions outside the ring give them the vantage point to see some things more readily that their fighters can. As a result, they shout out instructions that can get the fighter to change his approach and fight more effectively.

This is easily translated to a combat situation in a game. The bard several yards over from the rogue and can see an opportunity for the rogue to get into a flanking position and yells for him to do so. The rogue complies and now gets +2 on his attacks and sneak attack damage. Perhaps the bard also saw that the armor the rogue's foe wore was damaged on one side and that left him vulnerable to certain attacks.

The bard then yells encouragement to the wizard, reminding him that he has set entire villages aflame with his mere will. This inspires greater performance from the wizard. Conversely, this demoralizes the good guys who realize they are doomed and they flee the field. Evil wins!

Scarab Sages

Zathyr wrote:
Personally I do think that instruments do have their place, situationally. For performances like Inspire Courage where people just need to hear the performance, traditional "instruments of war" like drums, flute, bagpipes, and the like can carry across much larger distances than even a well trained voice. There really aren't rules for it in-game, but personally if I were GMing I'd take it into consideration whenever distance is a concern. I can hear bagpipes from about a mile away. Singing, not so much.

As a professional vocalist, I found this post intriguing. It's not exactly a COMMON occurance, but: Farthest Distance Traveled by the Human Voice

I could see magically infused singing working like that, even if it is a whistle language.


The bit about their need for verbal components in all spells shows how they are 'jacks of all trades, but masters of none'.

Basically, it shows how they are poorly trained and kind of terrible spellcasters. This is because they NEED verbal components as mnemonic devices (you know, like 'Roy G Biv' for the rainbow colors or 'King Henry Drinks Much Dark Chocolate Milk' for the basics of the metric system) in order to cast spell.

And they are so poorly trained because they just bug random specialists for tips and training in thing they think would be useful on the road.
-So they see a wizard, and they decide that being able to make themselves stronger and to get out of sticky social situations
-they see the fighter, and decide that his swordplay would help protect him from brigands
-They see the cleric healing, and decide that it would keep him and his companions from bleeding out before they can get to a proper healer.

That last one is of particular note. Bards learn healing because they have to be self sufficient on the road. But why don't wizards learn cure spells?

Well, my guess is 'because they don't have much need to'. Looking at the wizard as a professional, rather than as an 'adventurer', why would he need to learn cure spells when any decent (non evil) temple could do that better and cheaper than he could by spontaneously casting cure spells or sending out a burst of channel energy. Sure, he has infernal healing in case of emergencies (we are thinking of in-universe, not in practical high level game terms here; it will still stop bleed effects and bring level 1 commoners from death to 'I'll sleep it off'), so why should they start some inter-guild conflicts by stepping on the clerics' toes by going to the trouble of reinventing the wheel?


Historically, bards were the journalists of the day, remembering various poems and histories verbatim. Much of their training was learning things by rote. It is also noteworthy that even though they wrote in verse for mnemonic benefits, they were often not particularly artistic in their poetry.

The thing where the bard goes wrong is that it takes six seconds to sincerely have music affect something like combat. It is doubtful anyone would even hear any of it.


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Sissyl wrote:

Historically, bards were the journalists of the day, remembering various poems and histories verbatim. Much of their training was learning things by rote. It is also noteworthy that even though they wrote in verse for mnemonic benefits, they were often not particularly artistic in their poetry.

The thing where the bard goes wrong is that it takes six seconds to sincerely have music affect something like combat. It is doubtful anyone would even hear any of it.

The bard is cheating. It's not just the music inspiring people or whatever, it's magic. Bardic performances are mostly (Su).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Music is also a powerful source of magic in legends. Aside from charms and enchantments in Mediterranean lore, Finnish myths include songs manipulating very powerful magic.

Then there's also the inspiration of fighting while singing which Tolkien makes much use of through the Rohirrim, inspired by Northern European cultures.

Those are also fine inspirations for the bard's role.


Bards can also use skills like Perform (Act) or Perform (Oratory) or Perform (Comedy). You could even model evil bards on Batman villians like the Joker, the Riddler, etc. who use a lot of theatrics to inspire their minions and vex their enemies.


Scythia wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
If their spellcasting is natural, why are they all musical savants and preoccupied with random lore?

Because the idea of a bard comes to us from Celtic tribes, where a bard was a lore keeper who kept verbal history often in the form of songs. Also, the songs they sang were thought to have power, one legend says that an unpopular king was broken out in spots and sores after a bard sang a scathing satire about him.

In many folk beliefs and religious traditions alike, music is thought of as a way to commune with greater forces or channel power. The Bard class uses the concept of both the original Celtic bard, and the mysticism assigned to music.

I'm aware of the original inspiration for the D&D bard, and I think that 'I inspire people with the power of music!' is a fun concept; I just have difficulty fitting the 3.x bard into the context of the game world.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Bard: 1. A musician, wise man and repository of oral culture who enjoys a limited form of diplomatic immunity. 2. The class who inexplicably believes that the correct response to the sudden sight of ravenous bloodthirsty monsters is to burst into spontaneous song. -Lincoln


Also, may I bring up the archaeologist archetype?

This archetype trades away performance in return for a luck ability that boosts attack, damage, saves, and skills, as well as some more rogue-y things.

I like the idea of them because it is more like an adventurer that took some community college courses in magic, dungeon crawling and daring-do, rather than a musician that decided to go into the zombie filled dungeon. So overall, it meshes better with other, more serious martial classes than the normal bards.


I only started playing bards once I realized the Inspire Courage bonus is competence. So, perform oratory becomes tactical genius. No other class short of Battle Herald can take the party leader role as well, knowledge of foes, overlap with any other class to support or advise them, social skills so the person negotiating for the party actually has the authority to make deals.. So, defluffing the music out of the class, you have a natural strategic, social, and tactical leader.

Or stick with the music and make a metal guitar hero with an adamant-bodied electric Axe.. Or stick with the music and make a joke punchline.


They don't make sense. Originally, the class was a fighter/thief hero of myth with some basic druidic training and the ability to create supernatural effects with song. Then 2e made them into rogues with arcane casting, and they've never stopped being confusing since. 3e tried to split the difference, resulting in the swordfighting-kind-of-roguish-but-not-backstabbing-I-cast-mirror-image-and- charm-person mishmash we have now, which does indeed sing, dance, and breakdance in battle. I think Final Fantasy is partly to blame.


I used to feel like the OP, but for me it was getting over that hideous picture of a Bard in the 3.5 PHB.

Look at their spell list - it's just so bloody awesome I find it difficult to understand how anyone wouldn't want to use it. So much flavour, an element of uniqueness and very powerful used correctly. Bards are my favorite class now at all levels. My only negative feelings towards them would be some of the archetypes, which are horrible but you get to ignore them!

I prefer oratory, I like to inspire the party with tales of the weak or just plain weird overcoming adversity to win through against seemingly impossible adversaries. Stories about Booboo the mighty Shrew and his cohort Twitchy the mouse fighting off the advancing horde of Barbarian Orcs!


MCArchetypes made the Desperado.

Think of any of the Clint Eastwood gunslinger movies where there is whistling going on in the background.

A bard doesn't have to do much to get the job done. In fact, I think lots of people have heard some fancy whistling. Who knows, maybe a Bard can make his song sound like the local animal life.


I play down the performance part and sum the whole bardic perfomance thing as more magic less obvious performance, such as catchy tunes that seem to continue on even if the bard stops singing, tones with unnatural echoing length, catchy tunes thta lift spirits.

I also think of bards who hum and/or suffle rather then outright sing or dance. A little rythmic twitch back and forth that not so much interferes with combat but helps him fight unpredictably.

There's also the bard that just doesnt shut up. Hes either telling jokes, making quips about whomever dumped their mental scores the most, berating the enemy brutes or just wont shut up about what he ate this morning.

Of course the whole breakdancing thing can be both cool and deadly if you weave the right sort of weapon into it, Spiked chain? Double sword? Dire flail!


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Warhammerdance.

Dark Archive

Bill Lumberg wrote:

Imagine a boxer's trainer giving him instructions between rounds. Some trainers simply tell him to keep using his jab because he had gotten away from utilizing it in the last round. Other trainers are incredibly animated and their instructions almost qualify as theatrical performances.

Once the next round starts, most trainers continue to yell instructions and encouragement. Often, their positions outside the ring give them the vantage point to see some things more readily that their fighters can. As a result, they shout out instructions that can get the fighter to change his approach and fight more effectively.

This is easily translated to a combat situation in a game. The bard several yards over from the rogue and can see an opportunity for the rogue to get into a flanking position and yells for him to do so. The rogue complies and now gets +2 on his attacks and sneak attack damage. Perhaps the bard also saw that the armor the rogue's foe wore was damaged on one side and that left him vulnerable to certain attacks.

The bard then yells encouragement to the wizard, reminding him that he has set entire villages aflame with his mere will. This inspires greater performance from the wizard. Conversely, this demoralizes the good guys who realize they are doomed and they flee the field. Evil wins!

Evil wins?


THIS might help you understand...


Joe Hex wrote:

I've been playing since 2nd edition way back when I was a kid, and the one and only class in the game that still to this day utterly confounds me is the Bard. All of the Bard's ability's are predicated on some type of musical or performance based action, which in itself can be cool, but when it comes to adventuring and combat is a little bonkers...

Spells require a verbal component (Singing or reciting something), and in the case of Bardic performance, actually putting on a performance.

Am I wrong in interpreting this as the Bard literally breaking into song during combat to cast a spell, or breakdancing to defeat his or her enemies like an 80's music video in the case of Bardic performance? It all seems so silly... Mechanic wise, how does someone maintain a performance as a free action?

It could very well be that I'm missing something obvious here; my only exposure to the gaming community has just been my group of friend that I've played with. I've never posted online before, but since I've started up again with Pathfinder, I've been set on settling some of these old WTF questions. Pathfinder has done an excellent job of tweaking the classes, but the Bard remains just freaking weird to me... which sucks because a lot about the class I find cool- Jack-of-all-trades, performer, collector of lore, etcetera...

Anyway, could someone clear this up for me. Is the Bard class as goofy as I think, or am I missing something. Thanks in advance for indulging me here! :)

I could give a few examples. Remember Edward from Final Fantasy IV? Bard. Ever watched the Japanese anime "One Piece"? The character Brooke is a bard. Ever played that old Sega game "Michael Jackson's Moonwalker"? The effects his dancing and music does to the enemies, defintiely bard. The video game "Lunar the Silver Star" lead female character, Luna, has magical songs focused on healing and curing status effects. She would be a bard in D&D. (There are other characters in my head that I vaguely remember being bardic in theme, but I cannot full recall)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
If their spellcasting is natural, why are they all musical savants and preoccupied with random lore?

Because the idea of a bard comes to us from Celtic tribes, where a bard was a lore keeper who kept verbal history often in the form of songs. Also, the songs they sang were thought to have power, one legend says that an unpopular king was broken out in spots and sores after a bard sang a scathing satire about him.

In many folk beliefs and religious traditions alike, music is thought of as a way to commune with greater forces or channel power. The Bard class uses the concept of both the original Celtic bard, and the mysticism assigned to music.

I'm aware of the original inspiration for the D&D bard, and I think that 'I inspire people with the power of music!' is a fun concept; I just have difficulty fitting the 3.x bard into the context of the game world.

Play the PFS scenario "Confirmation". It should help.


Bards also allow you turn your adventures into a proper musical with the bard bursting into song and dance at key moments.
For example, during the final battle of RoW, he could belt out "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" from the Wizard of Oz.


BARD!
Most Bards


Zathyr wrote:
Warhammerdance.

Stop! Hammertime!


I read the thread title and thought, Wow, Shakespeare's still makin' people crazy.

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