Marshall and Martial get mixed up a lot, easy to mistake one for the other
Did someone call me?
I just realized no one on these boards actually knows my name is Marshall, though it makes my username a lot less special.
If that is all it does, then I won't bother looking at it.It balances the same way every other RPG in existence does. You just say 'no, that's overpowered' and that's that.This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.But does it do any balance for me as a GM?
So, even though it's got the same balance rule as every other RPG ever, you're bypassing it. Whatevs.
Seriously, if you think PF is 'reasonably balanced', I don't know what to say.
If that is all it does, then I won't bother looking at it.It balances the same way every other RPG in existence does. You just say 'no, that's overpowered' and that's that.This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.But does it do any balance for me as a GM?So, even though it's got the same balance rule as every other RPG ever, you're bypassing it. Whatevs.
Seriously, if you think PF is 'reasonably balanced', I don't know what to say.
It's balanced enough that I only have to nudge things.
This HERO system is apparently as balanced as me just making things up. That's too much extra work for me as a GM.
Headhunter
Blacksmith
Tribesman
Nomad (Archetype?)
Medic (Healing Aura?)
Hun (Barbarian/Samurai)
Headhunter
Probably a Barbarian archetype, or maybe a Ranger/Barbarian blend.
Blacksmith
Definitely an archetype of (upgraded to PC status) Expert, or maybe of Artificer if that ends up being a separate class.
Tribesman
That sounds awfully generic -- could be any of a number of things.
Nomad (Archetype?)
That sounds awfully generic -- could be any of a number of things. Although suddenly thoughts of both the upcoming Iron Gods and an old Star Trek episode popped into my head, and now I'm thinking of some kind of robot/cyborg warrior . . . .
Medic (Healing Aura?)
Several classes do this: Cleric, Oracle, Witch, and Paladin -- not exactly as an aura, but Channel Energy and Mass Cure Wounds and even at least one temporary aura-like spell (forgot the name, but something like a column of light that is reminiscent of Oracle of Life's Energy Body) are pretty good.
Hun (Barbarian/Samurai)
Probably just a Barbarian archetype.
* * * * * * * *
For those who vote for Psionics: The Dreamscarred Press Psionic classes and prestige classes seem in general (at reading -- haven't tested them) to range from good to only moderately overpowered (and maybe not even moderately overpowered compared to some of the newest Paizo classes, such as Arcanist and Investigator -- alternatively, maybe some of the old Paizo classes just need a buff to let them catch up to the new ones; maybe that's part of what Pathfinder Unchained is for).
Problem is: Their flavor doesn't really fit Golarion (at least not Avistan, Garund, and what little we've seen of the Dragon Empires), although it might fit okay for some of the other worlds in Golarion's solar system. So then the main challenge becomes how to reskin them so that they fit thematically while keeping the very nice mechanics (and any remaining balance issues are probably small enough to be easily fixable at the same time).
While I deny the fact that DSP's psionics flavor doesn't fit Golarion ... Psionics=Ki. Done.
If that is all it does, then I won't bother looking at it.It balances the same way every other RPG in existence does. You just say 'no, that's overpowered' and that's that.This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.But does it do any balance for me as a GM?
Hero has the advantage of letting you play any character concept, as it is almost completely open because it is a point based system.
Hero has the disadvantage of letting you play any character build, as it is almost completely open because it is a point based system.
:D
In general the more the choices and the more free the system is, the easier it is to abuse. HERO is easily the most abusable system I've ever seen - it is also the most flexible. Heck in a super game I was playing a man sized psycic amoeba.
I really like a Monk/Wizard Hybrid. I was a big fan of the 3.5 prestige class Enlightened Fist. I really look at somatic component of spells being the caster aligning his Chi to channel the spells he casts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Problem is: Their flavor doesn't really fit Golarion (at least not Avistan, Garund, and what little we've seen of the Dragon Empires), although it might fit okay for some of the other worlds in Golarion's solar system. So then the main challenge becomes how to reskin them so that they fit thematically while keeping the very nice mechanics (and any remaining balance issues are probably small enough to be easily fixable at the same time).
Golarion has space ships and robots. It's a kitchen sink setting. There is nothing that doesn't fit it.
But I will agree. Paizo has no room to innovate when it comes to psionics. DSP stuff only seems OP compared to rogue and fighter, but by that measure so is the Ranger.
|
I liked that it could teleport around.I want the Swordmage from 4e, even if it's in the form of a Magus archetype.
(For those who don't know it, it's essentially a Magus who uses his magic to protect his friends, instead of delivering Shocking Grasps through his sword)
My favorite 4E character, and a concept that I couldn't rebuild in Pathfinder if I tried, was an uber-teleporting Eladrin Swordmage. She could bamf around the battlefield like she owned every square of it. Her build concept was, essentially, "Walking is for peasants."
Did anyone mention a Mystic Theurge continuation class that actually gets up to 9th level spells on both ends? Even a 4 level Prestige class would be enough.
Did anyone mention a Mystic Theurge continuation class that actually gets up to 9th level spells on both ends? Even a 4 level Prestige class would be enough.
I think so. It's been done two or three times in 3pp materials, though, with SGG's Magister and (publisher forgotten)'s Theurge.
{. . .} Wizards need improvement? {. . .}
As a matter of fact they do. Other than their spell progression, which gives them less spells per day than Sorcerers (and yes, they have more spells known for longer-term flexibility, but less short-term flexibility), they have a lot less than Sorcerers and Arcanists. Sorcerers get several cool Bloodline abilities (feats, powers, and extra spells known) as they go up, in addition to their spell progression that is just offset by -1 (although admittedly, some Bloodlines botch the job, and need a rework, although even more welcome would be just plain reorganization so that you don't have to go to completely different places to look for original and Wildblooded lines); they get better weapons too. Arcanists share Wizard's lesser spells per day, but have both long-term and short-term flexibility, plus some other cool Sorcerer-like and Magus-like stuff. Wizards get Scribe Scroll and their 1st level Arcane School abilities at first level, of which a subset of the latter are pretty cool but in most cases don't scale very fast, and then next Bonus Feat is at level 5, then one more Arcane School ability at (usually) level 8, again of which a subset are pretty cool, then a Bonus Feat at 10, then they have to wait to Level ** 15 ** for another Bonus Feat, and then Level ** 20 ** for another one. (And yes, I know that the 8th level Arcane School powers get some scaling, but so do most mid-level Sorcerer Bloodline powers.) The Wizard isn't as bad as in D&D 3.5 (where it seemed like the best thing to do with it was use it as a springboard for a Prestige Class as rapidly as possible), but in Pathfinder, the other classes have gotten better too (the same thing used to be true of Sorcerer, but the Pathfinder Sorcerer is pretty good, and with the better Bloodlines even still okay compared to the Arcanist, although probably slightly eclipsed, but definitely not as far eclipsed as the Wizard).
Short answer: Yes, the Wizard needs improvement.
What I would have really liked to have seen would be for the Sorcerer and Wizard to be archetypes or at least alternate classes of each other, with the Wizard getting a regular progression of Arcane School powers and feats like the Sorcerer and Oracle (the latter of which gets 3/4 BAB and d8 and better armor and weapons and STILL gets 9/9 spellcasting with just a -1 level offset and more spells per day). Then Arcanist could have been built as an intermediate archetype from this. I am actually surprised to find a few people still playing Wizards in PbP campaigns, but since I tend to gravitate to reading PbP campaigns that emphasize roleplaying instead of mechanical optimization, it is understandable that for some people the coolness factor of Wizards overcomes their relative weakness.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I would have really liked to have seen would be for the Sorcerer and Wizard to be archetypes or at least alternate classes of each other... [snip]
Back when PF was still a 'might happen,' I was pushing for *all* spellcasting classes to get a choice at 1st level of whether they were going to be prepared or spontaneous, and then to either acquire spells like a sorcerer (small list, very flexible) *or* to acquire spells like a wizard (2 / level, all the rest need to be paid for, *nobody* gets all their spells for free!).
Prepared Bards, with sheafs of musical notation representing the magical stylings they've assembled over their travels? Yes sir!
Spontaneous Paladins and Rangers, with a small list of spells known, from which they can cast flexibly like a Sorcerer? Indeed.
Clerics and Druids having to choose one of the above, and keeping a holy canon or set of ogham runes in place of a 'spellbook,' or having a very much smaller list of 'spells known' like a Sorcerer? Definitely.
But, that ship sailed long ago.
The Sorcerer and the Wizard, IMO, just aren't different enough to warrant being two completely different classes. If D&D wasn't so hard-coded into Vancian casting, and the designers had a bit more experience with every other game ever, which managed to function without it, I suspect that the Sorcerer wouldn't have seemed so utterly shocking and different, when it's really the tiniest modification of the Wizard, compared to something *really* different, like Binding or Truenaming or the multiple magic systems in the World of Darkness, or that from Ars Magica. Heck, even Words of Power and Psionics can be done with the base Sorcerer / Wizard chassis (ooh, add 'mana points', what a twist, people have been doing that since Arduin Grimoire in the '70s'...).
Considering it's been 7 pages so far, I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I'll add my vote to it.
I'd like to see a non-magic artificer / engineer. I recall seeing a custom class made for pathfinder somewhere on the boards once that basically gave it a steampunk iron man suit. That might have had magic though.
Other stuff I can think of would be doable with archetypes I think, but I'll list them anywho.
- Weapon Thrower: Class focus on throwing weapons, including improvised weapons. I'm thinking Bullseye from Daredevil using pencils and broken paper clips to kill people.
- True Namer: Wordcasting exists but the system is clunky. I'd probably run it like learning names (studying for some amount of rounds) before getting certain effects / spells on target.
- Pro Wrestler / Judo Master: Here I'm thinking abilities that allow slams, locks and throws (probably out of the grappling) that deals some extra damage or harmful debuff.
- Artifact based class: A friend and I had once come up with a custom class, where it's magic like abilities worked almost entirely off of a magical artifact that the class would start with (the player choosing from a list). The class would use the artifact to do magical things flavored to the artifact basically. And... now I want to write this up again.
- Arcane Trickster: Focused on playing tricks in an arcane manner from the start instead of having to go through a PRC for it. I think this was mentioned before and I agree.
- Non-Magic Shapeshifter: I saw this before and agree. I would love something that focuses solely on being amazing at shapeshifting.
- Telekinetic: I know there are psionics in 3pp and that I could just make a sorcerer with telekinesis focus (and I might) but this and other mind powers offer such a large amount of different possibilities that a class focused on telekinesis and force power abilities sounds fun. I recall a 3.5 of a PRC for it.
- Blood mage: Again this might be more a PRC admittedly and yes the bloatmage exists... but it doesn't seem as awesome as the 3.5 prestige class where you can jump into one person and pop out of another somewhere else.
So really... just a couple that would fit as full classes I guess.
Problem is: Their flavor doesn't really fit Golarion (at least not Avistan, Garund, and what little we've seen of the Dragon Empires), although it might fit okay for some of the other worlds in Golarion's solar system. So then the main challenge becomes how to reskin them so that they fit thematically while keeping the very nice mechanics (and any remaining balance issues are probably small enough to be easily fixable at the same time).Golarion has space ships and robots. It's a kitchen sink setting. There is nothing that doesn't fit it.
{. . .]
Yes, but the upcoming space ships and robots are SUPPOSED to be alien invaders from another world, so their out of place flavor is right in place. Actually, that's not a bad idea for a sensible way to introduce Psionics to Golarion without needing much reskinning: brought in by invaders and/or refugees from a strange world. Obviously, Paizo couldn't have it be a red giant sun scorched planet, or they'd get sued, but refugees from a world overrun by Lovecraftian horrors could certainly work.
snipI can agree that their features (or lackthereof really) could stand to be expanded upon but I simply can't agree with
it is understandable that for some people the coolness factor of Wizards overcomes their relative weakness.Come on. We're talking about one of the (hands down) strongest classes in the games.
Lacking in features? Sure. Weak? We're still talking about a ninth level caster with access to the best spell list in the game.
Honestly I can't even tell if that post is serious given that we're discussing flat buffs to one of the most powerful classes in the game.
Being able to cast 9th level spells is very nice, but only gets you so far when you don't have much else. And it gets to be not so nice when you have to pick a rigid set of spells for each day, so that an enemy who gets an idea of what you are likely to load and how many of each can metagame you (competent enemies would have someone or something trailing you to get this information, or even just carefully observe your combat against minions and traps), and you can't adapt on the fly, and they know that you can't adapt. At least a Sorcerer or Arcanist who gets tricked into blowing a spell on a red herring can just recast it as long as they have spell slots of the appropriate level remaining. And when comparing to classes that are not 9/9 spellcasters (and even to some that are), those get hurt a LOT less than a Wizard who gets tricked into blowing a spell. For all that a Fighter's sword swing can't do as much as a Wizard's high level spell, the Fighter isn't going to run out of them. Now, this is supposed to be a defining difference between Wizards and Fighters, but then Clerics, Oracles, and Druids get to have at least the second best of both worlds: 9th level spells that aren't quite as powerful as a Wizard's 9th level spells, but still not bad, and fighting capability that isn't up to a Fighter's level, but still not too shabby.
A Psychic magic system is already built into the Pathfinder main setting, as being common on Castrovel (home world of the Elves and Lashunta) and in Vudra. Paizo has also said that at some point they will probably do rules for it. It's just not been a high priority, and it's probably going to use Vancian-style mechanics, not spell points.
...it's probably going to use Vancian-style mechanics, not spell points.
Then there is almost no point in doing it. You can just reflavor the vancian casters as psionics.
By the time you re-flavor psionics to vancian you are going to get more or less the same thing as normal casters.
I miss plenty. Foremost among these:
-An Arcane Trickster class. Would have done very well as a pick instead of the Hunter.
-A magic Monk, like a Sorcerer/Monk hybrid.
-A true unarmed brawler character. Would have been great instead of the Brawler.
-A specialized caster. Something with more unique powers than casting. You can't really do, say, a gravity manipulator or time based caster within the current rules. Would have been great instead of the Arcanist.
Rogue/Fighter, honestly I am surprised it never made the cut.
A Sorcerer/Brawler AND a Wizard/Monk.
You can't really do, say, a gravity manipulator or time based caster within the current rules. Would have been great instead of the Arcanist.
I've done both of those to decent effect I think.
[link1] - Can use telekinesis at will in addition to her normal actions
[link2] - Possesses a variety of time-manipulation powers
For a gravity-based spellcaster, all you really need are spells like feather fall, fly, implosion, mage hand, open/close, overland flight, reverse gravity, telekinesis, and any number of similar spells. You could even reflavor a few; magic missile, for example, could be pulses of distorted/condensed gravity, for example.
Time-based spellcasters are just as easy thanks to the existence of spells like borrow fortune, embrace destiny, fallback strategy, gentle repose, haste, martyr's bargain, nap stack, slow, threefold aspect, and others.
Artificer
The Arcane Trickster mentioned would be super sweet (though I already have a few done the original way)
A Tech Class
|
Rogue/Fighter, honestly I am surprised it never made the cut.
Slayer pretty much does this in almost every way that matters.
My own list:
A Marshall/Warlord would definitely be very nice.
A full BAB shapeshifter sans spells seems solid.
An Arcane Trickster base class.
Those are all I'm really feeling the lack of, though.
Rogue/Fighter, honestly I am surprised it never made the cut.Slayer pretty much does this in almost every way that matters.
Your absolutely right, and the more I learn about the slayer the more I fall in love with it.
You can't really do, say, a gravity manipulator or time based caster within the current rules. Would have been great instead of the Arcanist.I've done both of those to decent effect I think.
[link1] - Can use telekinesis at will in addition to her normal actions
[link2] - Possesses a variety of time-manipulation powersFor a gravity-based spellcaster, all you really need are spells like feather fall, fly, implosion, mage hand, open/close, overland flight, reverse gravity, telekinesis, and any number of similar spells. You could even reflavor a few; magic missile, for example, could be pulses of distorted/condensed gravity, for example.
Time-based spellcasters are just as easy thanks to the existence of spells like borrow fortune, embrace destiny, fallback strategy, gentle repose, haste, martyr's bargain, nap stack, slow, threefold aspect, and others.
Not really the same thing. I'm speaking more along the lines of crushing people with gravity (opposite of Reverse Gravity), something like a cross between Reverse Gravity and that Magnetic Sphere or whatever spell, where you aim an orb at a spot and it slowly pulls creatures towards it, things like that.
As for a time manipulator, I was talking more along the lines of speed up/slow down whenever, rewinding a previous action, things like that.
Spells (in this case, spells that ONLY THIS CLASS GETS, it defeats the purpose of a specialized caster getting neat s!&* if a Wizard can just snag half of them) or abilities that really work like that rather than being reflavorings of existing stuff that kinda does it but not really.
Probably be a 6th level caster just so you can fit in some more Su and such abilities to help out.
Paizo won't be touching that one, but fortunately a very reputable 3pp well known for their re-creation of 3.5 subsystems is on it.To answer the OP:
Incarnum in some new shape or form(reskin it with a new name, just update the rules).
Hooray! You have my attention :)
To be honest, Paizo's non-core stuff has been very hit or miss in my opinion. That, and lately everything seems to be really rushed and not playtested enough. With D&D 5e coming out, I can't help but feel like Paizo's release schedule is going to be even more rushed(not drawing comparisons, just making business observations).
I'd rather a reputable 3pp company handle the obscure, odd sub-system stuff than Paizo at this point. Paizo already have a pretty full plate with juggling AP's, new rules books, supplements, minis, etc. I'm all about letting a company who has the time(and actual interest) do the niche stuff.
Something that isn't just Core/Base combination would be good.
What i would like to see
1) 1/2 BAB Full Divine Caster, with 4 + Int skill points. So i can create a character who has some skill to go along with the spells.
2) Cha based Druid with spontaneous druid spell ( like the sorcerer ). What, i want to cast more spells per day... even if i can only cast a smaller number of them... i want access to the druid spell list tho :)
3) A feat that give you 6 skill points. Each time you take this feat, you can gain another 6 skill points. Again, i want more skill points for rounding out my characters !!
^For some reason, Paizo seems to want to make Full Divine Casters have 3/4 BAB, even when they get 4 + IntMod Skill points. See Oracle and Shaman (spontaneous and prepared, respectively, the latter having just come out with the Advanced Class Guide). I wonder what it would take to get a 1/2 BAB Full Divine Caster -- maybe Skills set to 6 + IntMod, or maybe even 8 + IntMode, depending upon density of other class features?
Thread Necromancy time: While going over a character concept I have in mind for Rise of the Runelords that would take the concept of Sin Magic and play it to the hilt, I just realized that the Mythic rules are missing a Mythic Path: Mythic Slacker!
A Mysticism Focused Brawler to replace the Monk outright.
The Brawler seems to be pretty decent over all. Adding a few Su abilities would just make it all that much better.
What i would like to see
3) A feat that give you 6 skill points. Each time you take this feat, you can gain another 6 skill points. Again, i want more skill points for rounding out my characters !!
6 seems a bit extreme. Skill boosting feats, by and large, either give you +2 to two skills or +3 to a single skill. I'd say 4 skill points would be fair.
A Mysticism Focused Brawler to replace the Monk outright.
The Brawler seems to be pretty decent over all. Adding a few Su abilities would just make it all that much better.
Wouldn't that just pretty much make it, at least in theme if not execution, a monk? I thought the whole point of the brawler was that it was pretty much a better executed version of what the martial artist archetype should have been...a bare-knuckles martial artist without any of the fancy supernatural abilities.
A Mysticism Focused Brawler to replace the Monk outright.
The Brawler seems to be pretty decent over all. Adding a few Su abilities would just make it all that much better.
Uhh... This is literally just a Monk. The whole point of the Brawler is to have a purely Ex martial artist.
Uhh... This is literally just a Monk. The whole point of the Brawler is to have a purely Ex martial artist.A Mysticism Focused Brawler to replace the Monk outright.
The Brawler seems to be pretty decent over all. Adding a few Su abilities would just make it all that much better.
I am talking about a mystic martial artist whos class features work well together and have an established role in a group.