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+1 on the Warlord love, I also thought the avenger was pretty cool, but the inquisitor fills that role.
A real martial/singing skald, not one that's a variant bard. Too many classes that cast spells as a bandaid.
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A real martial/singing skald, not one that's a variant bard. Too many classes that cast spells as a bandaid.
Well the Skald in ACG is plenty good even without it's spells (For instance, handing out Celestial Totem while having a Life oracle super heal everyone with its Life Bond Ability)
Hmm, the Hexblade was a rather cool idea. This could be done by a Magus with hexes instead of spells.
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Hexcrafter Magus comes pretty close to Hexblade. And it evens combos with Bladebound Magus.
You guys make me laugh when you request a Mystic Theurge and an Arcane Trickster... when they're ALREADY Prestige Classes. Look, they cannot convert PrCs into actual classes, ok? So let them be..Uh... You do realize this is exactly what the Magus did with the Eldritch Knight, right?
That's almost on a league of its own... Because the Eldrith Knight BARELY give new abilities...
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On the idea of a Mystic Theurge base class:
Please no? We are clear about how that is akin to asking for a class that has access to two spell lists, right? Well, technically the Theurge could be Arcane+Druid or Arcane+Cleric, so that's potentially 3 spell lists, but that's beside the point. I understand that it could theoretically just be a 2/3s caster, but those have a spotty history of actually being balanced (lookin' at you summoner).
I really just have no desire for that class to exist.
Most 2/3 casters are actually pretty well balanced. Even Summoner is not too bad, save for a couple archetypes.
In fact, Inquisitor and Bard are probably the best balanced classes in the game.
I would like more a psionic monk. But a divine monk would be cool.
Don't know if anyone already pointing this out to the OP but Iroran Paladin can make a pretty good divine monk.
On the idea of a Mystic Theurge base class:
Please no? We are clear about how that is akin to asking for a class that has access to two spell lists, right? Well, technically the Theurge could be Arcane+Druid or Arcane+Cleric, so that's potentially 3 spell lists, but that's beside the point. I understand that it could theoretically just be a 2/3s caster, but those have a spotty history of actually being balanced (lookin' at you summoner).
I really just have no desire for that class to exist.
Rogue Genius Games was able to pull it off without it being unbalanced.
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All the classes in Ultimate Psionics. Of course Ultimate Psionics exist, so I guess I am not really missing them.
That's ignoring that wizards are already pseudo-theurges because they can access any spells they want through higher level spells.
With all the complaints that the Arcanist is broken, despite it having the exact same spell list as the wizard, I think we really don't need to bring out an outrage of naysayers by inventing a class that gets access to both divine and arcane spells as it would really upset a lot of people.
That said, if it had only one spell table that went up to 6th level spells, meaning the same number of spells per day as a magus, but had access to both spell lists and only had half BAB, that might be an okay class balance wise, but only because it would be so utterly useless.
but only because it would be so utterly useless.
Not if it received spell DC boosters, enhanced action economy (divine arcane blending), and perhaps even the ability to augment summons (since they would only get up to 6).
Throw in a pool like the magus that allows for spont/more casting of spells and you would have a pretty darn effective 6th casting mystic theurge (probably also just give it double magus slot. One for divine the other for arcane spells).
All the classes in Ultimate Psionics. Of course Ultimate Psionics exist, so I guess I am not really missing them.
I see no reason why you couldn't reflavor many of the existing spellcasting classes into psionic concepts and call it a day.
All the classes in Ultimate Psionics. Of course Ultimate Psionics exist, so I guess I am not really missing them.I see no reason why you couldn't reflavor many of the existing spellcasting classes into psionic concepts and call it a day.
Because it's the mechanics I like?
That and the Aegis, soulkife and 8 other classes in that book offer things that Paizo PF doesn't.
I'm more inclined to reflavor the psions as magic casters and call it a day.
but only because it would be so utterly useless.Not if it received spell DC boosters, enhanced action economy (divine arcane blending), and perhaps even the ability to augment summons (since they would only get up to 6).
Throw in a pool like the magus that allows for spont/more casting of spells and you would have a pretty darn effective 6th casting mystic theurge (probably also just give it double magus slot. One for divine the other for arcane spells).
Giving it twice as many spells as everyone else would get it banned pretty much immediately.
Weeeellllll, a bunch of people missed THESE concepts. So we made them. Quite a few of the concepts listed in this thread are represented there, but I did take this thread to mean "What would you like to see PAIZO do…" so apologies in advance… :)
Can't wait to do the same to the ACG mob.
To the OP: I did mention a dubcaparkourstepoeirista (which would be a Brawler archetype) in the Playtest "What archetypes do you want to see…" threads. Could just easily be a Monk/Bard or Bard/Brawler I guess...
Giving it twice as many spells as everyone else would get it banned pretty much immediately.but only because it would be so utterly useless.Not if it received spell DC boosters, enhanced action economy (divine arcane blending), and perhaps even the ability to augment summons (since they would only get up to 6).
Throw in a pool like the magus that allows for spont/more casting of spells and you would have a pretty darn effective 6th casting mystic theurge (probably also just give it double magus slot. One for divine the other for arcane spells).
It would still be less slots than the current prestige class.
On the idea of a Mystic Theurge base class:
Please no? We are clear about how that is akin to asking for a class that has access to two spell lists, right? Well, technically the Theurge could be Arcane+Druid or Arcane+Cleric, so that's potentially 3 spell lists, but that's beside the point. I understand that it could theoretically just be a 2/3s caster, but those have a spotty history of actually being balanced (lookin' at you summoner).
I really just have no desire for that class to exist.
Look up the Magister and the Theurge on the pfsrd20 site, then come back to this.
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Here's a quick pass at a Ranger archetype that gives me most of what I want from a shapeshifter class.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't quite match the normal archetype format in terms of trading abilities out, but I doubt it's overpowered, at least at higher levels.
In fact, I'd like to add more forms, especially at higher level, but there really isn't a template in PF for such abilities. Form of the Dragon, I guess.
I gave it more uses of the ability because I really want him to have to only pick one combat form for the day even at low levels.
I haven't playtested this, so I've got no idea how it will work out. My suspicion is that it'll be weak in combat, at least at low levels, but will have good flexibility and utility. Flight at level 1 is pretty sweet, but since he won't have any casting or ranged ability while flying, not too broken.
Personally I don't think you'd even need to ditch the Medium armor proficiency to keep that balanced.
This really is how the Hunter should've done the Ranger/Druid hybrid - instead of focusing on the pet, make a shaper. 3/4 BAB, Natural Weapon feat chain that ignores prerequisites, 6th level spellcasting, and instead of a companion a shaping focus that gives them some leveling "always on" abilities (no x rounds-minutes-whatever per day) and eventually allow their wildshaping to surpass the Druid's by giving them templates.
So an 8th Level Shaper gets ALL of the options in Beast Shape III (including Medium Magical Beast), at 10th Level they can add Celestial/Fiendish (neutral would make a permanent choice upon level) template depending on alignment, using their WIS mod to Smite instead of CHA. Instead of Druidic they could learn Celestial, Infernal, or Abyassal.
Combat? Either conventional melee, conventional ranged, or bust out using one of their manufactured toys.Right, I feel that, I recall the class being a thing, but...what do they do other than crafting? Say, in combat? I feel like an alchemist that could take crashing feats is already an adventuring tinkerer guy (I f&$#ing hate the word tinkerer)There are various flavors of artificer about, ranging from the original Eberron take to various homebrew adaptations.
The one thing they have in common, is that they are uber magic item crafters, that ultimately get every magic item crafting feat for free. And that they can break down magic items for residue in helping them create new ones.
Also, buffing the living crud out of people ... or rather, their stuff. For example, while a wizard has to put Bull's Strength on an individual target, an Artificer enchants someone's belt, and then they can pass it around for the duration of the spell as needed.
The other thing about artificers is that they had no restrictions on what magic items they could create. Arcane or divine, no difference, and since they had no spell list, they used UMD to fake any spell. They weren't just magic item crafters, they were THE magic item crafters. Anything from a staff of power to a holy avenger, they can make it.
I am slightly surprised that no one is suggested adding playable versions of non player character classes -- that is, versions that some people would actually want to play. I have 2 issues with the NPC classes: one is that they are inherently inferior by level to the PC classes, as if they were just cannon fodder (which can be done just as well and more honestly using lower level PC classes); the other is that levels of NPC classes are albatrosses on the characters in case you want to upgrade them to PC or DM-PC status without fudging. If I were both a DM and had the time to write some in-depth house rules (and remotely possibly I'll do it anyway, although certainly not on a phone like I am doing for this post), I would convert all Warriors to martial characters (usually Fighters) or sometimes something like Thug archetype of Rogue, but Aristocrats and Experts are more interesting.
For Aristocrats, I would make them similar to base class versions of Noble Scions, but with more flexible abilities. Archetypes would include Noble Scion (base class), Political Scion, Socialite, and Tycoon (gets abilities like Golden Prophet/Prophet of Kalistrade, but trades in the spells for more awesome non magical abilities), for starters. Aristocrats would range from diplomats to leaders to socialites. (Socialite class feature: Unencumbered by the Thought Process -- this gives them Skill Ranks based on CHA instead of INT, but all but 2 Ranks/Level must be spent on social Skills.) Supporting Feat or Trait available to all Aristocrat archetypes: Born with a Silver Foot in Your Mouth.
For Experts, I would make them into professional skill monkeys that do other have part of their advancement tied to stealth and backstabbing; they would still be able to take Rogue Tricks/Ninja Talents that do not depend upon Sneak Attack, and could also acquire Artificer Talents. Experts would range from battlefield engineers to detectives (not to be confused with the Bard archetype) to other professionals in dangerous lines of work to ordinary but talented people who become aware of grave threats and work against them behind the scenes. Expert archetypes would include Artificer, Battlefield Engineer (not the most awesome item crafter, but can build and repair mundane things REALLY FAST), Detective (more hard-boiled than the Bard archetype), Merchant, Politician (more grassroots than Political Scion above), and Professional.
Commoners would be among the least changed, but would gain 2 class features. Opportunity for Redemption would let you convert a level of another class into a level of Commoner every time you gain a level of Commoner. Untapped Potential would let you convert a level of Commoner into a level of another class every time you gain a level in the other class. Either one (not both at once) would work only once for each Character Level advancement. Thus, you could slowly rebuild a character -- thus, for instance, an Agent of the Grave could slowly become redeemed by getting back in touch with common life, even in the absence of someone willing or able to cast Atonement.
I have not yet figured out what to do with Adepts, since these are really lousy casters, but they have spells from at least 2 lists.
I have not yet figured out what to do with Adepts, since these are really lousy casters, but they have spells from at least 2 lists.
I think a strong argument could be made that the witch is an adept raised to the level of a PC class. They have a similar feel to them and a mixed spell list between arcane and divine (more or less depending on patron and archetype, but it's certainly possible).
A courtier/social skill monkey class (the aristocrat or expert as a PC class) is interesting, and could be useful for a variety of settings (Game of Thrones comes to mind, where there are a number of characters like Tyrion, Littlefinger, etc who could arguably be rogues without sneak attack, but would probably fit better with something closer to a bard. Heck, you could also write up someone like Sybil Vimes/Ramkin from the Discworld books as such a character.)
As I remember, Arcana Evolved had a skill monkey class that didn't mix with a rogue, though I think it mixed with a monk instead. The akashic, maybe?
Here's how I would stat the martial shape shifter:
- 3/4 BAB, good fort, d8 HD, 6 skill points, ranger-like skill list, plus more knowledge skills
- Shape shifting:
As spells at level:
beast shape 1(2,3,4) at 1(4,8,12)
monstrous physique 1(2,3,4) at 3(9,13,16)
plant shape 1(2,3) at 5(10,15]
form of the dragon 1(2,3) at 11(14,18)
- Usable 3/d at first and an additional time per day at every level.
Duration is 10 minutes per level.
- At first level and again at 5th, 9th, 13th, 18th gains a +2 bonus on saves vs. transformation spells and SLA and a +1 bonus on saves vs. poison and disease.
- At level 2, a pool powered ability to
a) add enhancement bonuses to one natural attack for 1 minute per level,
b) make it count as this or that for DR purposes as long as 1 point remains in the pool
c) power a number of shape shifter gifts
- at level 2 and every two levels after that gains a shape shifter gift, this is stuff like gaining some extra ability that the target form wouldn't have, getting access to some specific abilities usually not available via shape shifting, prolonging the enhancement bonus duration, prolonging shape shifting duration, gaining fortification and so on.
- at 7th, 13th and 19th level, gains DR 1/-
- Capstone: Shape shifting ability becomes shape change spell, usable at will. becomes immune to precision damage and criticals, DR 10/-
Look up the Magister and the Theurge on the pfsrd20 site, then come back to this.On the idea of a Mystic Theurge base class:
Please no? We are clear about how that is akin to asking for a class that has access to two spell lists, right? Well, technically the Theurge could be Arcane+Druid or Arcane+Cleric, so that's potentially 3 spell lists, but that's beside the point. I understand that it could theoretically just be a 2/3s caster, but those have a spotty history of actually being balanced (lookin' at you summoner).
I really just have no desire for that class to exist.
I'll also mention the Purple Duck's Prestige Archtype: Mystic Theurge. They have a series of taking a prestige class and turning it into a 1-20 level archtype.
I love all three classes and how each approaches the concept differently.
I think a strong argument could be made that the witch is an adept raised to the level of a PC class. They have a similar feel to them and a mixed spell list between arcane and divine (more or less depending on patron and archetype, but it's certainly possible).
So depending upon context, Witch might be the most appropriate conversion for Adept. On the other hand, maybe they could be converted into a Witch Alternate Class that gets reduced spell but really goes hog-wild on the Hexes and other spell-like abilities.
A courtier/social skill monkey class (the aristocrat or expert as a PC class) is interesting, and could be useful for a variety of settings (Game of Thrones comes to mind, where there are a number of characters like Tyrion, Littlefinger, etc who could arguably be rogues without sneak attack, but would probably fit better with something closer to a bard. Heck, you could also write up someone like Sybil Vimes/Ramkin from the Discworld books as such a character.)
{. . .}
Also, Exalted has (or used to have) a diplomatic class that had mythical ability to cut through red tape, make connections, erc. This should do quite well in parts of Golarion such as Cheliax, Taldor, Absalom, and the Dragon Empires.
A monk/magus would be nice. Combining flurry with spellstrike/spell combat and meshing the ki/arcane pools and their abilities.
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In no particular order
Priest: a divine scholar more focused on scholastic pursuits and intellectual wisdom than martial prowess as a way to get closer to god.
Non mounted Cavalier: Seriously people have begged for it since onset and considering the Cavalier as built is more like a commander from nobility, (a man of high birth trained in the arts of diplomacy and courtly affairs as much as tactical combat) opening it up so that characters from historic backgrounds not heavily dependent on horses/mounts would really improve it.
A True Monster Trainer: Unless they have done some absolutely wonderful changes to hunter I want to see a class that is like a summoner ranger mix where you are the support to this massive beast you have trained from birth. The creature itself is one of various specific magical beasts that have modded stats like animal companions and the PC gets a small list of support style spells and the traps ability to supplement his creature. Basic combat plays out with the monster being more of the tank than him while he runs around throwing ranged attacks, dropping traps, buffing himself or others, and maybe dropping in to hit with a sneak attack.
Finally...
Dragons. Give me the ability to play a dragon over 20 levels and grow and mutate through that progression. I start by picking one of the base dragon types already in existence and as I level I grow in power and mutate, being able to twist and change some of the iconic abilities of my bloodline in order to get something crazy that I want to play an is unique to me.
Non mounted Cavalier: Seriously people have begged for it since onset and considering the Cavalier as built is more like a commander from nobility, (a man of high birth trained in the arts of diplomacy and courtly affairs as much as tactical combat) opening it up so that characters from historic backgrounds not heavily dependent on horses/mounts would really improve it.
Yeah, I'm no fan of Mounted Combat, Give me a class feature to replace the mount, please! It just doesn't fit into most of our campaigns. It feels weird trying to cram our horse into buildings.
Rogue Genius Games was able to pull it off without it being unbalanced.On the idea of a Mystic Theurge base class:
Please no? We are clear about how that is akin to asking for a class that has access to two spell lists, right? Well, technically the Theurge could be Arcane+Druid or Arcane+Cleric, so that's potentially 3 spell lists, but that's beside the point. I understand that it could theoretically just be a 2/3s caster, but those have a spotty history of actually being balanced (lookin' at you summoner).
I really just have no desire for that class to exist.
And Kobold Press managed it too.
Non mounted Cavalier: Seriously people have begged for it since onset and considering the Cavalier as built is more like a commander from nobility, (a man of high birth trained in the arts of diplomacy and courtly affairs as much as tactical combat) opening it up so that characters from historic backgrounds not heavily dependent on horses/mounts would really improve it.Yeah, I'm no fan of Mounted Combat, Give me a class feature to replace the mount, please! It just doesn't fit into most of our campaigns. It feels weird trying to cram our horse into buildings.
I know that they did this with the Sword Saint Samurai archetype.
There might have also been a Cavalier archetype that replaces the mount with Guns and Gunslinger Deeds.
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Cloistered Cleric archetype.In no particular order
Priest: a divine scholar more focused on scholastic pursuits and intellectual wisdom than martial prowess as a way to get closer to god.
I know and it's terrible. Somehow by shutting myself off from social contact to focus my studies on the teachings of my faith and temper my mind somehow loses me a domain and diminishes my capacity to channel their power and the ability to cheer people on with my verbal aid from 30 ft away.
I want something more like the 3rd party priest from tome of secrets. More skill points, little to no armor training, wizards weapon list + gods weapon, and better channeling.
Their are other options I would love to see (like something akin to they revelations an oracle receives) for them as well but for that we would have to see some modification to the cleric too.
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Non mounted Cavalier: Seriously people have begged for it since onset and considering the Cavalier as built is more like a commander from nobility, (a man of high birth trained in the arts of diplomacy and courtly affairs as much as tactical combat) opening it up so that characters from historic backgrounds not heavily dependent on horses/mounts would really improve it.Yeah, I'm no fan of Mounted Combat, Give me a class feature to replace the mount, please! It just doesn't fit into most of our campaigns. It feels weird trying to cram our horse into buildings.I know that they did this with the Sword Saint Samurai archetype.
There might have also been a Cavalier archetype that replaces the mount with Guns and Gunslinger Deeds.
You have the packmaster that replaces your mount with a bunch of dogs or falcons (your pick) and the Musketeer which does replace the mount with a gun.
That being said though the latter is interesting I really want one that just does away with the mount and isn't directly tied to firearms as well.
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Cloistered Cleric archetype.I know and it's terrible.
The 3.5 Cloistered Cleric was pretty decent, IIRC. More skills, some extra Divination spells, Bardic Lore, add the Knowledge Domain to your current Domains, drop HD to d6, BAB to Poor and armor proficiency to Light (no shields). Updating it to PF would require mostly just throwing Channel Energy onto it at the same level (since the CC's Turn/Rebuke Undead ability was unchanged).
Cloistered Cleric archetype.I know and it's terrible.The 3.5 Cloistered Cleric was pretty decent, IIRC. More skills, some extra Divination spells, Bardic Lore, add the Knowledge Domain to your current Domains, drop HD to d6, BAB to Poor and armor proficiency to Light (no shields). Updating it to PF would require mostly just throwing Channel Energy onto it at the same level (since the CC's Turn/Rebuke Undead ability was unchanged).
Speaking from experience, if this were updated to PF, I'd probably give them one more ability. I'd give them a field of specialization; they're scholars of a sort, after all. Since they use the cleric's spell list and that list is highly reactive, it would help give them some traction. The self-buffs the cleric gets just aren't as useful when you have poor BAB, poor AC, and low HD. So giving them more spells, not as domains, but added to the cleric spell list, would go a long way to make them workable. So I'd say each one gets a field of specialization that adds some spells to their list. No extras like domain powers, just an expansion on what they can cast. I'd probably base them off the Knowledge skills. So if you specialized in Knowledge (nature), maybe you can add the summon nature's ally spells to the spell list plus a few others like commune with nature. If it's Knowledge (local), go poach a few spells from the bard list (e.g. glibness, irresistible dance). And so on.
Please don't bring the Factotum or the Artificer...geez hell no..
I can ride my gun into battle!? That has to be the best Tank archetype ever! :PNon mounted Cavalier: Seriously people have begged for it since onset and considering the Cavalier as built is more like a commander from nobility, (a man of high birth trained in the arts of diplomacy and courtly affairs as much as tactical combat) opening it up so that characters from historic backgrounds not heavily dependent on horses/mounts would really improve it.Yeah, I'm no fan of Mounted Combat, Give me a class feature to replace the mount, please! It just doesn't fit into most of our campaigns. It feels weird trying to cram our horse into buildings.I know that they did this with the Sword Saint Samurai archetype.
There might have also been a Cavalier archetype that replaces the mount with Guns and Gunslinger Deeds.
You have the packmaster that replaces your mount with a bunch of dogs or falcons (your pick) and the Musketeer which does replace the mount with a gun.
That being said though the latter is interesting I really want one that just does away with the mount and isn't directly tied to firearms as well.
Well if you had a Double Hackabut and the leadership feat to grab a few lackeys to push it around for you...
Please don't bring the Factotum or the Artificer...geez hell no..
I kinda liked the Factotum, perfect class for a small party. The artificer, now.....