After ACG: Do you still miss a class ?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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What would be really nice would be a full Class Builder like the Race Builder in ARG.


Odraude wrote:
I'm actually hoping that with the class building advice, I'll be able to use that to design the classes I wish. So that will be cool :)

Ditto!

(And the semi-hybridization of classes in the ACG thus far has also been a very good illustrative tool.)


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JoeJ wrote:

What would be really nice would be a full Class Builder like the Race Builder in ARG.

Honestly, having played point buy systems, I can tell you that would really be easy to abuse and game. It's better to have advice that can help guide a GM make good judgement calls about class design.

Point buy systems can never beat experienced advice.


Personally I miss Warlocks...

Although I Do have to say the new Arcanist looks good enough I guess (the elemental blasts are the closests equivalents to Eldritch Blast)


Three things, for me.

1. A martial leader-type that can buff the group, somewhere between a cavalier and a bard (or a fighter and a bard). Something like the warlord from 4e and the marshal from the 3.0 Miniatures Handbook. I realize that cavaliers have a decent amount of this, but I'd rather see a more teamwork and buff focused character than the mechanics for orders, challenges, and the mount. I've got a homebrew version I'd like, but it's something I'd enjoy playing in PFS. I personally would have dropped the hunter from the ACG for this, as I think the hunter could have simply been a druid archetype that dropped the wild shape stuff for a focus on its animal companion.

2. Yeah, an artificer. Like the previous, I have a homebrew version I like, but it's too close to the Eberron closed-source material to be usable.

3. A martial shapeshifter would be interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if this shows up as a brawler archetype soon, considering the revelation of the Bane-inspired archetype for that class. It could be done fairly easily as a ranger archetype too, I think, if you dropped a lot of the nature skill boost stuff.


Odraude wrote:
JoeJ wrote:

What would be really nice would be a full Class Builder like the Race Builder in ARG.

Honestly, having played point buy systems, I can tell you that would really be easy to abuse and game. It's better to have advice that can help guide a GM make good judgement calls about class design.

Point buy systems can never beat experienced advice.

Why can't we have both?


JoeJ wrote:
Odraude wrote:
JoeJ wrote:

What would be really nice would be a full Class Builder like the Race Builder in ARG.

Honestly, having played point buy systems, I can tell you that would really be easy to abuse and game. It's better to have advice that can help guide a GM make good judgement calls about class design.

Point buy systems can never beat experienced advice.

Why can't we have both?

Because it was a lof of work that hey wanted to avoid. If you mind, Rinjyn have a system where you cherry pick your class features, it is probably broken at many levels but if you are not purporsely trying to break anything it works just fine.


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HERO! The system you should only play if everyone knows what their doing, and everyone is on the same page.


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If only there was some sort of point-based generic, universal system that I could use in any genre.

Dark Archive

Truenamer.

/ducks

Liberty's Edge

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Actually, I remember there was a martial shapeshifter. It was a wildshaping ranger variant.


Anzyr wrote:
HERO! The system you should only play if everyone knows what their doing, and everyone is on the same page.

I love HERO, but man, it is a big book of stuff to remember. And even with the rules abuses they fixed, it's still not terribly hard to game the system.

Shame too. HERO is great for tinkerers like me. I'm a sucker for that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mystic (An oracle/sorcerer hybrid)
Theurge (Wizard/Cleric)
Marshall (Fighter/Bard, no magic but great buffs)
Engineer (Alchemist/Summoner, comes with nifty robot)

Psychic (Psionics but with fewer, more flexible powers)


Redfire wrote:
Actually, I remember there was a martial shapeshifter. It was a wildshaping ranger variant.

You mean this guy?

He is more like a terrain type druod more than a full shapeshifter though...


I'd probably make a Medium class that revolves around the spirits of the dead. Always wanted to play a class like that.


Odraude wrote:
I'd probably make a Medium class that revolves around the spirits of the dead. Always wanted to play a class like that.

Medium

or there is

This Oracle Archetype

or this archetype


Base Class Arcane Trickster

Mystic Theurge Base Class

The Psion

For those who are wondering...


K177Y C47 wrote:
Odraude wrote:
I'd probably make a Medium class that revolves around the spirits of the dead. Always wanted to play a class like that.

Medium

or there is

This Oracle Archetype

or this archetype

And here I was just going to make a shaman archetype :) Thanks


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm actually interested in a class smiler to 3.5's Warlock class from Complete Arcana. a caster with an ability to use energy blasts as their own form of weapon usable at will that grows more powerful as you level up and can be changed with innovations (like Arcainist's Exploits) which can alter the affects and powers of the blasts. however many of the innovations would cost energy points from a pool smiler to the Arcainist or Magus.

they would be proficient with only simple weapons but with light armor, casts spells 0-6, and whose powers can be customized like a sorcerer(in the form of archetypes) to different backgrounds.

the class that would become the ultimate blaster. :)


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SteelDraco wrote:

Three things, for me.

1. A martial leader-type that can buff the group, somewhere between a cavalier and a bard (or a fighter and a bard). Something like the warlord from 4e and the marshal from the 3.0 Miniatures Handbook. I realize that cavaliers have a decent amount of this, but I'd rather see a more teamwork and buff focused character than the mechanics for orders, challenges, and the mount. I've got a homebrew version I'd like, but it's something I'd enjoy playing in PFS. I personally would have dropped the hunter from the ACG for this, as I think the hunter could have simply been a druid archetype that dropped the wild shape stuff for a focus on its animal companion.

Sounds like the Sensei Monk to me. You get Inspire Courage, all diplo and knowledge skills as class skills, and the ability to pass out your ki powers to teammates. Makes a great team leader.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh yeah, either a non-casty shapeshifter or a shapeshifter with the focus on polymorph that a summoner has in conjuration.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Sounds like the Sensei Monk to me. You get Inspire Courage, all diplo and knowledge skills as class skills, and the ability to pass out your ki powers to teammates. Makes a great team leader.

I'm currently scratching the itch to play such a character with a dwarven fighter/evangelist cleric with the War (Tactics) domain. He does what I like, but I'd rather have the option to do so with less magical character. I've played a similar character as a fighter/bard before as well.

I do like the sensei, but monks have a very specific flavor to them, and the sensei even more so.


I like what Green Ronin tried to do with their Noble's handbook. I still want to see an updated and/or expanded version of that.

Definitely agree about Marshall / Commander. Maybe a cavalier / bard without a mount or spells, and even more buffs. I always liked support classes with buffs or Diablo2 Paladin type auras.



  • A Warlock-type class, with unlimited evocations and eldritch blasting.
  • A divine-arcane hybrid caster.
  • A rogue-arcane hybrid. 6 level arcane casting, some sneak, some acrobatics, talents and 3/4 BAB.
  • Similarly a rogue-divine hybrid.
  • A non spell casting shapeshifter class.
  • A martial buff/teamwork class.

To be honest, many of the ACG classes just seem redundant to me.


  • The Warpriest, given the possibility of martial Clerics and Inquisitors.
  • The Arcanist. No one needs another, yet more powerful arcane caster.
  • The Brawler. Monks and the brawler Fighter archetype make this redundant concept wise. The fact that it was included seems to hint at the Monk and Fighter classes having been badly designed to begin with.
  • The Swashbuckler. Similarly, that the Fighter chasis was not able to accomodate this kind of fighter is telling. Not redundant, but should have been.
  • Hunter. Oh Joy, it's a druid by another name...
  • Skald. From the playtest document, this just seems horribly thrown together. It's just a bard with a variant performance and the utlimate "I solve this problem with the perfect spell" ability. Both of which seems to speak against it.

I really do like the Investigator, it does fill a niche. The Bloodrager seems a bit overpowered by the playtest document, but a nice idea. The Slayer is a long awaited full BAB - sneak attack class. The Shaman is cool, but I don't see what the hexes add to it. But then again, I really find the great power disparity between hexes (smell children vs. slumber e.g.) kind of annoying anyway.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Magic item crafter: An alchemist is not an artificer. I still miss it.
The one class you'll never see from Paizo.... because it'd be totally undoable in PFS play.
While I doubt we will see it, I do not agree that "undoable in PFS play" is a benchmark for auto-exclusion from publishing by Paizo.
At the very least, it's a strong disincentive.

I can agree with that.


I still miss a class that gets cool supernatural abilities but no actual spells. Like a bard that exchanges his spells for a sorcerer bloodline.
We have enough examples of abilities such a class could get but they are exclusive to casting classes.
Bard, Sorcerer, Oracle, druid


Guess I always put it in there.. but

Item centric prc.
10 level, 3/4ths and d8 or or maybe even full bab. D10 Reason being the problem with sneaky poison classes is bad to hit, and it provides a non magic option for "a guy with a sword and non spell skills"
4skillpoints. Idk saves, but probably good fort.
Gives buffs to Alchemical weapons and poisons. Maybe just straight up INT to damage of alchemical weapons (similiar to alchemist, but for all alchemical weapons) and then a new recipe for Alchemical items and or poisons used by this PRC (maybe 10 +1/2PRC+INT). Or maybe a straight up PRC lv added to the DC of poisons (that would prevent you from just using the cheapest thing)
In addition to that
Add free poison applications per day (either free applications equal to PRC level or 1/2) the poison based upon specific poisons you unlock as you level up
Maybe include something like pathfinder chronicler (either free or paid, but paid the discounted (see below) amount) Deep pockets. but only usuable for alchemical items (tools, items, poisons, weapons (this limited scope I think would make it ok to be free unlike the Chronicler who can pull out wands and such on command and pay later)
Something like.
Every odd level unlock a different kind of poison. Start with HP damage or status effects and work your way up to ability damage.
Every even level pick a item/poison knowledges(discoveries/talents basically)
then either have them be discovery choices or just unlock as you level up, but some ability to use the alchemical items and poisons.
So.. poison use, allow quick drawing (either in general as a free action or via the feat), maybe the Intx usage of poisons (though this steps into "should be a knoweldge" territory), discounts on crafting poison and alchemical items, maybe a Bonus to craft alchemy. poison immunity.

I think the poison half makes it useful for "sneaky " styles and the alchemical items would be nice for the guy who doesn't want magic but really wants something more than just swords..


Scavion wrote:


So while the rules don't say you can't have a Cleric who worships an ideal, in Golarion which is setting by James Jacobs, there are no clerics who worship an ideal.

No offense to JJ, but unless it's actually printed in a Golarion-specific book, it's in no way a "rule" and what is in the Pathfinder line would supersede what is not published anywhere. Although it could be published somewhere. I have no idea.

Regardless, there is the Enlightened Philosopher Oracle archetype and Oracles certainly don't have to worship a deity.

zergtitan wrote:


I'm actually interested in a class smiler to 3.5's Warlock class from Complete Arcana. a caster with an ability to use energy blasts as their own form of weapon usable at will

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dre amscarred-press/soulbolt

This is basically an archer, but you are still shooting energy bolts instead of using a ranged weapon. It stacks with the Gifted Blade archetype which grants Manifesting up to 4th level (similar to a Paladin or Ranger). You could also forgo Gifted Blade, level dip into a manifesting class and then take the Dark Tempest PrC (not on d20pfsrd for some reason) that advances both Manifesting, Mind Blade enhancement, Psychic Strike, and Blade Skill.

So, via 3pp there is already a pretty functional supernatural at-will blaster that can be built with 'spellcasting' or not. It lacks the 90s goth poseur aesthetic of the Warlock. If that is a demerit it is at least a very subjective one.


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I want something Tome of Battle-ish.

Dark Archive

- A Mage/Rogue.

Archetypes cover the subsets of this.

Arcane Trickster
Beguiler
Spellthief
Illusionist/Shadow Rogue.

-SteelDraco and KutuluKultist want a martial Bard/Cavalier leader type, but there already is one. It's the Battle Herald and it is very good. It's a bit complicated though and only uses one weapon (Longspear). I'm not sure about this, I think between Cavalier, Bard, and a Paladin with good Diplomacy, this concept can already be done.

- A non-caster shapeshifter.

Archetypes include the big bruiser Bear/Barbarian, the sneaky Assassin/Snake, the scouty Ranger/Eagle etc. can be flavoured as Manimal, Lycanthropes, fey mysteries, Native American spirit animals, plenty of possibilities.

- I absolutely never want to see a class builder in Pathfinder. It would kill the game stone flat. People would never ever pick crap class abilities like Slow Fall or Bravery (as it is, people swap them out with archetypes ASAP) and instead it'd be about getting 9th level Arcane/9th level Divine spells at the expense of everything else. You'd get entire parties of Mystic Theurge variants. A class builder would also not work because either things like Druid would be shown to spend way more points than lesser classes, double or triple the Rogue, or his class abilities would have to be super cheap to compensate. Which suggests that wild shape would cost as much as sneak attack. 9th level Druid spells cost as much as Rogue Talents. Full animal companion costs as much as... erm... Trap finding.

Basically, it couldn't work, because the current classes can't be made in a point-buy class builder.


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I feel like a lot of these concepts can be produced with the classes we have currently. A few posts back I saw someone call for a 6 level arcane casting, 3/4 BAB, kinda sneaky guy, and his divine counterpart; you're asking for the Bard & Inquisitor.

I never played an artificer, so I'm not sure what they do, could someone educate me?

Just for the sake of class completion a 4 level arcane caster could be interesting. It could take form as a beefier hexblade, throwing around debuffs like a witch with magus style.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
i want to cut a mountain in half, without magic.

Grab an adamantine pickaxe and go for it.

Magic takes longer due to limited castings per day.

Grand Lodge

Nicos wrote:

White mage: 1/2 full divine caster. [/QUOTE

Yes please


A 1/2 BAB divine dedicated caster.

I had hopes for the Arcanist White Mage archetype, but it looks like it's just an arcanist with Cure spells.

Cure Spells don't make a caster 'divine'. They don't even really make you a healer (you need things like condition removal and Restoration for that imo).

It misses the mark by so far it hurts. Maybe it's got more than just spontaneous healing though...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GypsyMischief wrote:

I feel like a lot of these concepts can be produced with the classes we have currently. A few posts back I saw someone call for a 6 level arcane casting, 3/4 BAB, kinda sneaky guy, and his divine counterpart; you're asking for the Bard & Inquisitor.

I never played an artificer, so I'm not sure what they do, could someone educate me?

Just for the sake of class completion a 4 level arcane caster could be interesting. It could take form as a beefier hexblade, throwing around debuffs like a witch with magus style.

There are various flavors of artificer about, ranging from the original Eberron take to various homebrew adaptations.

The one thing they have in common, is that they are uber magic item crafters, that ultimately get every magic item crafting feat for free. And that they can break down magic items for residue in helping them create new ones.


I'm still hoping for a steampunkish engineer, with an eidolon-like robot, spell-like inventions/gadgets, bombs and exosuits (maybe not all in one class, they could be divided over archetypes). No really, we have too little engineer/steampunk like classes. Closest is the experimental gunslinger.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Rogue/Illusionist Hybrid: I know we have the arcane trickster, but people who could remember the Bluehand from Ad&d miss what the ninja really should be.

Major props to you for the Bluehand reference! Here I thought I was the only one who remembered that fascinating section from the Complete Thieves' Handbook.


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Captain K. wrote:

- A Mage/Rogue.

Archetypes cover the subsets of this.

Arcane Trickster
Beguiler
Spellthief
Illusionist/Shadow Rogue.

All of these options (as well as the bard) come with a particular specialisation and their own problems.

The Arcane Trickster is basically a touch spell sniper, which suffers from it's low BAB. I don't know what a Beguiler or a Spellthief is (if not the 3.5 classes) and an Illusionist is just a wizard. Yes, I can force a mage/rogue hybrid using traits to accquire class skills, trap finding, focussing on INT and so on, but having a class that focusses on that, with options to specialise on manipulation, traps, sneak combat would enrich the game.

Quote:

-SteelDraco and KutuluKultist want a martial Bard/Cavalier leader type, but there already is one. It's the Battle Herald and it is very good. It's a bit complicated though and only uses one weapon (Longspear). I'm not sure about this, I think between Cavalier, Bard, and a Paladin with good Diplomacy, this concept can already be done.

Not strictly. You certainly lose BAB and gain spell casting one way or another. You will also have to deal with the dead weight of the original classes, such as the animal companion. It would be better to have an option that does not come with all that baggage.

Quote:


- A non-caster shapeshifter.
Archetypes include the big bruiser Bear/Barbarian, the sneaky Assassin/Snake, the scouty Ranger/Eagle etc. can be flavoured as Manimal, Lycanthropes, fey mysteries, Native American spirit animals, plenty of possibilities.

Is that an endorsement? ;)

Quote:


- I absolutely never want to see a class builder in Pathfinder.

Total agreement.

Liberty's Edge

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Hey everyone - hopefully you'll indulge me, but I wanted to mention that a number of the class concepts that have come up in this thread are already available in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press!. If you use non-Paizo material in your game, please give the book a look!

A number of folks have said they want a martial, non-caster shapeshifter. Take a look at the skin-changer, a variant of the spell-less ranger class that trades out things like hunter's bond and combat styles for a druid-like animal shape ability right from 1st level and a specialized animal combat style

For those looking for a full 20 level Mystic Theurge style arcane/divine base class, the New Path Compendium presents the theurge!

Looking for a spontaneous casting version of the druid, with abilities and flavor like the sorcerer or oracle - the NPC has the shaman, complete with totem secrets and an animal spirit guide.

Looking for a class a bit like the warlock, a martial caster with energy blasts which can be modified as he increases in level? Check out the battle scion - the ultimate martial blaster. :)

The NPC has received 11 5-star reviews, including one from Endzeitgeist himself and there's a lot of other good stuff including a number of other new classes (including the spell-less ranger, white necromancer, elven archer, and savant) so please check it out. Those of you looking for unrealized Pathfinder RPG classes might find that the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press! is just what the doctor ordered! :)

Scarab Sages

Arcturus24 wrote:
I'm still hoping for a steampunkish engineer, with an eidolon-like robot, spell-like inventions/gadgets, bombs and exosuits (maybe not all in one class, they could be divided over archetypes). No really, we have too little engineer/steampunk like classes. Closest is the experimental gunslinger.

Numerian technomancers are the obvious path for introducing an artificer-like class into Pathfinder.

I keep hoping for this, but Paizo would have to be very careful with the implementation. A lot of people are opposed to mixing technology in with their swords & sorcery.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Marc Radle wrote:

Looking for a spontaneous casting version of the druid, with abilities and flavor like the sorcerer or oracle - the NPC has the shaman, complete with totem secrets and an animal spirit guide.

Have you looked at either the First World or Wild Caller Summoner archetypes?


Scythia wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
A spontaneous magus and witch, as well ... that still function off Intelligence, dammit.
I've made both of these for my home games (because I prefer spontaneous casting to prepared). You just swap out their spell progression for sorcerer/oracle (for witch), and bard (for magus). Honestly the magus barely changes. If you want to still base them off Int, do so. The Inquisitor isn't Cha based, and there are Sorc bloodlines that use Wis or Int, so it's got precedent.

I love that idea, I may have to run it by my GM. I am terrible with prepared casters.

Honestly, a lot of these options people are looking for, I am thinking of archetypes that cover them. I understand the desire for fluff around the class, but I had a few concepts I wanted to cover and people identified options for me.

I think a good amount of problem is when a class has heavy flavor tacked on. If you strip away a Druid's nature trappings and the witch's occult trappings, you get Divine/Arcane hybrids. If you strip away the bard's performer identity, you can create spellthief/arcane tricksters/beguilers. It just creates a little bit of... "This might work, but it's just too much of stretch."

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

A proper archivist. Meaning a divine spellcaster that casts off of intellect and uses a spellbook. If there were absolutely zero class features beyond that, I would still play it.


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There is a magus archetype, the Greensting Slayer I believe, that gives up a lot of fighter abilities and gains some rogue like abilities, like evasion and sneak attack giving you the mage/thief style character that you want.

Spontaneous Druid is a niche that is not filled.

With the addition of the Bloodrager we could still see a prepared 4/9 arcane caster with full BAB and now the door is open for a spontaneous 4/9 full BAB casters of both the nature and divine lists.

Could go for a 4/9 full BAB caster version of the witch, I imagine it would end up much like the 3.5 hexblade.

I am fine with psionics in the hands of DSP, and I really couldn't care less about an artificer class.


master_marshmallow wrote:

There is a magus archetype, the Greensting Slayer I believe, that gives up a lot of fighter abilities and gains some rogue like abilities, like evasion and sneak attack giving you the mage/thief style character that you want.

Spontaneous Druid is a niche that is not filled.

With the addition of the Bloodrager we could still see a prepared 4/9 arcane caster with full BAB and now the door is open for a spontaneous 4/9 full BAB casters of both the nature and divine lists.

Could go for a 4/9 full BAB caster version of the witch, I imagine it would end up much like the 3.5 hexblade.

I am fine with psionics in the hands of DSP, and I really couldn't care less about an artificer class.

While not TECHNICALLY fully spontanious, the ACG Shaman is like... partially spontanious AND they can be very druid-esque (one of the spoiled hexes is pretty much wildshape)


master_marshmallow wrote:
There is a magus archetype, the Greensting Slayer I believe, that gives up a lot of fighter abilities and gains some rogue like abilities, like evasion and sneak attack giving you the mage/thief style character that you want.

Where is this from?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would like to see something that combines Oracle and Sorcerer.


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You guys make me laugh when you request a Mystic Theurge and an Arcane Trickster... when they're ALREADY Prestige Classes. Look, they cannot convert PrCs into actual classes, ok? So let them be...

Honestly, for missing classes? Hmmm...
- Artificer/Tinkerer: someone who can fabricate gadgets that duplicate spells. If that's problematic to you, pretty sure Numeria would have such a class amongst their ranks.

- Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader: Yes, I'm asking this, because I really liked how Tome of Battle was written and ruled. Look, the fighter is literally paling in comparison when it comes to "having something unique". These 3 classes made an awesome alternate fighter option. Tian Xia could be loaded with these right now. Basically, give the fighter spell-like abilities in the forms of unique attacks.


Priest Class by Flaming Crab Games. Full divine caster, 1/2 BAB, non-armored. I think it is actually really well made.

As for me:
Spontaneous druid.
Artificer type class.
Half-caster Full BAB spontaneous Divine caster (both godly [cleric] and nature [druid] based spells).
Half-caster Full BAB prepared Arcane caster.
Spontaneous 6/9 druidy caster.
Martially based buff class, that gives aura buffs (preferrably wider area than 30 ft), and can give out teamwork feats to his allies.
Archivist from Heroes of Horror. A divine class that has a spellbook and can buff as well.
Classes based on the Arcane schools, like the Summoner (though not as abusable as the Summoner).

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