I think of the War Priest as the divine magus tbh. Only focused on buff spells.
Which makes sense, because divine magic in general focuses on buffing and debuffing. Arcane is clearly the more blasty type of magic, so it makes sense that an arcane casting class would be blastier than a divine one.
I think of the Cleric as the divine magus, myself.
Hasn't the Adept's role been taken by the Witch?
Not really. In the same way that the warrior wasn't replaced by the fighter, the adept wasn't replaced by the witch. It's still a quick and easy way to add some magic to a monster/npc without seriously boosting their CR, like how warriors can cheaply and quickly add some BAB and HP to a monster/npc.
They're less powerful, but there are fewer class abilities for the GM to fiddle with.
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I think of the War Priest as the divine magus tbh. Only focused on buff spells.Which makes sense, because divine magic in general focuses on buffing and debuffing. Arcane is clearly the more blasty type of magic, so it makes sense that an arcane casting class would be blastier than a divine one.
Although an evil cleric (or neutral negative energy channeler) who could channel smite / spell combat his inflict spells through his favored weapon could be fun.
A positive energy channeler could do that as well, but wouldn't be able to spontaneously turn his prepared spells into inflict spells, so he'd not usually be quite so good at it. On the other hand, if he could spell combat to trigger a cure spell on himself as a swift action while full attacking, that might be a funky way of making a positive energy channeling battle-cleric (and he could still prepare some inflict spells to use to harm living targets with divine spell combat).
I'd like to see a class for scholar type characters that aren't casters.
That probably would be the Expert, I think.
Though if you fluff alchemy as not being that magical, the Investigator could work as well.
Factotums. Fight smarter, not harder. Really just do everything smarter, not harder. And then add some more INT. Also fake religion to heal stuff. And mimic spellcasters to cast spells. And Dodge Smarter. And move Smarter. And...
There is one concept I haven't seen executed:
While most arcane casters are fond of collecting old tomes of lore or casting spells as an art form through some innate talent, a select few are much more practical. In a medieval fantasy setting, it is inevitable that some casters, especially those of the more magical races (elves, gnomes) will be conscripted to war, their powers refined on the battlefield. Living artillery shells, these casters work with simple spells like magic missile, mage armor, and other similar abilities, scaling them up into more powerful versions and adding effects. For example, they may be able to add AOE or stunning effects to missiles, add more missiles, or augment spells like shield/mage armor with additional effects, such as added DR.
I'd like to see a class for scholar type characters that aren't casters.
How 'bout this dude?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar
Can I get a class balanced around Sacred Geometry and other abilities that require player know-how to pull off?
Im a little disappointed that we didnt get more of a Divine Magus, (that we know of, still hopes for a archtype). But other than that, Im pretty content with things.
Would be an easy archetype to create:
Can use spells in any armor (proficient in all armor), Use Cleric Spell list, divine prayer book (same as arcane) and wisdom for casting, cantrips become orisons (name for divine ones), Gain a domain at level 1, 7th, 13th levels (gain +1 divine spell slot like cleric). Divine pool instead of Arcane pool uses Wisdom
Honestly the Warpriest IS the Divine magus... Unlike the Arcane Spell list, divine spell lists (barring the druid) tend to be full of bull spells. So Fervor is pretty much like Spell Combat and with the added utility of acting as a LoH ability. Additionally, following divine tradition, they are actually BETTER at combat (able to wear heavier armor from level 1) and they get a "On the Moment enchantment" ability like the magus.
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Can I get a class balanced around Sacred Geometry and other abilities that require player know-how to pull off?
If you're ever at GenCon, try to get some True Dungeon tickets. It's all player-focused puzzles and player testing instead of most dice rolling (still some for initiative and saves, but that's about it).
Honestly, I find a lot of builds fairly skill-testing (either in the building or in the execution). A few straight-up puzzles wouldn't be remiss.
Cheers!
Landon
Yes, and yes. And I disagree completely, because all the stuff you need for HERO is in one book, maybe two if you need a genre book.That would be 'all of them'. HERO character creation is easy.By "Hero" I assume you mean Fantasy Hero? By the guys who made Champions? Ifso, then in my opinion, building a Hero character is a order of magnitude more difficult and time consuming than D&D/PF.
But I do enjoy Champions.
All the stuff you NEED for PF is in one book.
There's something like nearly 300 Hero systems supplements.
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I am surprised how many of these wanted classes will be in D&D 5E. I know PF works better with 3E, but maybe some of the class features from 5E will be usable in PF? There is a fighter, monk, and rogue that cast wizard spells. Non-LG paladins. 9 levels of spellcasting for the bard. The warlock. The wild mage is back (chaos sorcerer). And a fighter with battlefield tactics.
From Mike Mearl's Legend & Lore article:
Barbarian: A barbarian picks a primal path that reflects the nature of the character's rage. The two options in the Player's Handbook are the Path of the Berserker and the Path of the Totem Warrior. The berserker fights with an implacable fury, while the totem warrior channels the magic of beasts to augment his or her rage.
Bard: Each bard is inspired by a college—a loose affiliation of like-minded bards who share lore, stories, and performances. The Player's Handbook presents the College of Lore, which focuses on knowledge and performance, and the College of Valor, which focuses on inspiring bravery on the battlefield.
Cleric: Cleric domains reflect the nature of the gods and shape the magic a character wields. The domains in the Player's Handbook are Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, and War.
Druid: A druid joins a circle—one of a number of loose alliances of like-minded druids who share similar outlooks on nature, balance, and the way of druidic magic. The Circle of the Land allows a druid to select a type of terrain from which he or she draws magic. The Circle of the Moon augments a druid's ability to transform into various beasts.
Fighter: All fighters select a martial archetype that reflects a specific approach to combat. The Champion is a mighty warrior who scores deadly critical hits in combat. The Battle Master is a flexible, cunning tactician. The Eldritch Knight masters magic that allows him or her to protect allies and devastate foes.
Monk: A monk commits to a monastic tradition, defined by a specific form of martial arts that helps channel and shape the use of ki energy. The Way of the Open Hand augments a monk's unarmed strikes and allows mastery of the deadly quivering palm technique. The Way of Shadow turns a monk into a stealthy warrior who manipulates darkness to confuse and confound enemies. The Way of the Four Elements allows a monk to channel ki into spells and blasts of elemental energy.
Paladin: All paladins take an oath—a pledge to a code of conduct that guides their lives and shapes their abilities. The Oath of Devotion binds a paladin to the ideal of justice, virtue, and order. The Oath of the Ancients pledges a paladin to protect the natural world and preserve hope across the land. The Oath of Vengeance turns a paladin into a deadly avenger who seeks out and punishes wrongdoers.
Ranger: A ranger selects an archetype that reflects his or her ideals and relationship to nature. The Hunter stands guard in the wilderness, stopping threats before they can menace civilization. The Beast Master cultivates a powerful bond to creatures, fighting alongside them to bring down enemies.
Rogue: A rogue selects a roguish archetype that reflects his or her approach to crime and chicanery. The Thief is an evasive, sneaky trickster. The Assassin is a focused and quiet killer. The Arcane Trickster uses enchantment and illusion magic to enact his or her schemes.
Sorcerer: A sorcerer's magic arises from a sorcerous origin—the event, ancestry, or quirk of fate that gifted the character with power. The Draconic Bloodline reflects a sorcerer's distant dragon ancestry, and grants powers that reflect a dragon's nature. Wild Magic imbues a sorcerer with the energy of raw chaos, producing unpredictable results from his or her magic.
Warlock: A warlock's patron shapes this class's power. The Archfey grants beguiling magic useful for trickery and quick escapes. The Fiend imparts the power of destructive fire and diabolic resistance. The mysterious Great Old One grants telepathic abilities and chilling glimpses into the nature of the multiverse.
Wizard: A wizard selects an arcane tradition—the specific approach to the study of magic that shapes his or her outlook and talents. Though many traditions exist, the Player's Handbook focuses on the established schools of D&D magic—Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation.
There are a lot of mechanical niches that come out of precedents started in the ACG,, especially when it comes to combining classes.
Let's look at the Bloodrager as the first example. Originally, the idea for this class came from a large desire for a full BAB 4/9 arcane caster that could rival a Ranger or Paladin. My own conjecture, is that the latter classes borrowed features from the fighter (weapon proficiencies, hit dice, starting age, etc) and combined them with one of the full casting classes (druid, cleric, respectively) to create the original hybrid classes. Legacy and rules bloat evolved these classes into their current forms which aside from semantics now stand on their own as classes. It should be noted that they are both prepared casters. When designing the bloodrager, they decided to instead hand out barbarian class features like rage and fast movement, rather than the fighter class features (arguably none, aside from full BAB). They also made the class a spontaneous caster rather than a prepared one which imo creates a niche for spontaneous full BAB 4/9 casters with some barbarian class features added in.
Imagine a Zealot class that functions as a Chaotic Paladin who has some form of holy rage, or a Savage that functions as a spontaneous Ranger who doesn;t bother with favored enemies but has much more attunement with nature.
It also leaves the niche for a full BAB prepared 4/9 arcane caster open, which has been done by 3PPs as well as myself.
Next let's look at the Shaman. A lot of people expected this to be a druid/oracle or a druid/sorcerer because the mechanical niche of a spontaneous druid has yet to be filled. Instead we got a new full divine caster with it's own spell list, a mix of cleric and druid spells, with some witch flavor thrown in. A nice class but it creates more niches for mechanics. Now demand for a spontaneous version of the druid still exists, and a spontaneous version of the shaman may be desired in the future.
Let's also look back at the bloodrager, a 4/9 full BAB class that is based off the sorcerer. What about the witch? What about the shaman? I could potentially see demand for a Pathfinder version of the Hexblade based off the PFRPG witch and possibly a 4/9 full BAB class based off the new shaman. That doesn't even go into having spontaneous casters vs prepared casters with and without barbarian touches.
Now let's consider the hunter and warpriest. Mechanically these two classes seem the weakest niches as their full caster counterparts both share similar class features and the same BAB. That means their class features must truly be stellar to make them stick out to players. I would personally attempt to crusade for both of these classes to gain a form of Spell Combat so that they fall into the niche that the magus holds as the 6/9 caster who has a role fighting while he casts spells, based off the druid and cleric, respectively. That doesn't even include desires for 6/9 shamans and witches with more combat abilites (the hexcrafter might fill that second one though). There is also a possibility for spontaneous versions of these classes like the bard and inquisitor.
Lastly, let's consider the swashbuckler. Based off the grit features of the gunslinger, but switching it's main stat to CHA instead of WIS, this class does some things a lot differently from it's predecessor giving it an interesting place in the game. Mechanically it is more inclined to do party face related things, and to use his Derring-Do (spelling?) to do many of the daring acts which are meant to restore Panache/Grit. Consider a class that uses the Deeds mechanic, but is based on INT instead of CHA or WIS. It is most definitely a niche that is not filled, a fully martial class that has INT as a primary stat is unheard of. There are naturally archetypes that swap the stat around to determine Grit, but that doesn't necessarily fill the niche of what the class would turn out like.
Imagine a Veteran class, who uses a mechanic called Cunning to perform great deeds based off INT. Being based off INT we would have a very skill intensive class, and probably one who would invest a lot into different Knowledges which is a niche only held by the Lore Warder fighter archetype at the moment, but this one would include Deeds and actually use INT in its class features.
Just some of my thoughts as to where Paizo could go with future classes and books, also that is considering only hybrid classes that don't introduce new mechanics to the game, there are several chances for new classes with features yet to be seen like Artificers, Psionics, etc.
Yes, and yes. And I disagree completely, because all the stuff you need for HERO is in one book, maybe two if you need a genre book.That would be 'all of them'. HERO character creation is easy.By "Hero" I assume you mean Fantasy Hero? By the guys who made Champions? Ifso, then in my opinion, building a Hero character is a order of magnitude more difficult and time consuming than D&D/PF.
But I do enjoy Champions.
All the stuff you NEED for PF is in one book.
There's something like nearly 300 Hero systems supplements.
'Need', perhaps, but it's horribly, painfully limited, whereas you can do everything with just the basic HERO book.
And for your second sentence ... what's your damned point?
Yes, and yes. And I disagree completely, because all the stuff you need for HERO is in one book, maybe two if you need a genre book.That would be 'all of them'. HERO character creation is easy.By "Hero" I assume you mean Fantasy Hero? By the guys who made Champions? Ifso, then in my opinion, building a Hero character is a order of magnitude more difficult and time consuming than D&D/PF.
But I do enjoy Champions.
All the stuff you NEED for PF is in one book.
There's something like nearly 300 Hero systems supplements.
'Need', perhaps, but it's horribly, painfully limited, whereas you can do everything with just the basic HERO book.
And for your second sentence ... what's your damned point?
You "need" supplements in Hero just like you "need" supplements in PF.
I'd be happy to see a well done class builder system. I have faith that smart players and GMs could make good use of it and create something that sticks with a theme not available with the current class options.In that case, I'd like to point out a previous post of mine that links to just such a system.
Thanks for the link Alzrius; that looks like a solid resource.
But I'm still wondering if ACG will have a system included. Like I said a couple pages back, I remember reading something that suggested there will be one included, but it's possible that info may have been pulled directly from someone's butt. I honestly think guidelines for creating archetypes might be even more useful.
Something like Witch+Alchemist could have been cool too.
Yes it would!
Something like Witch+Alchemist could have been cool too.Yes it would!
I'm actually hoping that with the class building advice, I'll be able to use that to design the classes I wish. So that will be cool :)
I just read this post from Odraude on the first page. Does this confirm they're will be a class building section? Anyone???
There will be a section of class building advice, but nothing like the race creation rules from the Advanced Race Guide. Don't expect a systematic approach, it's just supposed to be design advice.
There will be a section of class building advice, but nothing like the race creation rules from the Advanced Race Guide. Don't expect a systematic approach, it's just supposed to be design advice.
Cool: Thanks for the info SteelDraco!
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I'd like to see a class for scholar type characters that aren't casters.How 'bout this dude?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar
(Linkified the link.)
Actually not too shabby a start at one of the archetypes (or even Alternate Class) of the upgraded Expert I want (that is, one that people in their right mind would actually want to play).
For a Class Builder, if we can't get that, how about at least a near-equivalent of Qinggong Monk archetype for the other classes?
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Yes, and yes. And I disagree completely, because all the stuff you need for HERO is in one book, maybe two if you need a genre book.That would be 'all of them'. HERO character creation is easy.By "Hero" I assume you mean Fantasy Hero? By the guys who made Champions? Ifso, then in my opinion, building a Hero character is a order of magnitude more difficult and time consuming than D&D/PF.
But I do enjoy Champions.
All the stuff you NEED for PF is in one book.
There's something like nearly 300 Hero systems supplements.
'Need', perhaps, but it's horribly, painfully limited, whereas you can do everything with just the basic HERO book.
And for your second sentence ... what's your damned point?
You "need" supplements in Hero just like you "need" supplements in PF.
Nope.
You can make any character, of any type, for any game, with just the HERO book. If you make that claim of PF, I will laugh loudly and derisively.
This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.
This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.
But does it do any balance for me as a GM?
PF is not perfectly balanced, but I can nudge it with little effort when certain parties begin to tilt one way or the other.
Endless creation is a great thing, but we could all do that before we had rule books.
This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.
For me
Fantasy (standard)Fantasy (translational - heroes were from other genres - I had a cyberpunk, an old west, low powered super, a Jedi, a spy/Mcgyver, and a pulp investigator (think Cthulu). All together with no real balance issues.
Superhero
Martial arts action
Superpowered, but not superhero.
Alien invasion on modern day earth with some new emergent supertech.
Post Apocalyptic
Sorta Shonen Anime.
A Star Trek / Star Wars crossover.
One that I can only describe - the PCs were a band who played in bars, and were independent Mecha pilots, the world had dinosaurs/kiaju, and it was a frontier world. The feel was old west with the Mecha being horses and the dinos/kaiju being the "savage natives". This was years before Broncosaurus Rex from Goodman.
A Philosopher class would be something I'd be interested in playing.
His or her abilities could be predicated on deep insights into both the mystical and mundane. The class would chose a school of thought that would be refined by his travels and personal gnosis- and these discoveries provide him with the necessary skills to live a life of adventure. The class could have some spell casting a ability, but the motives would reach beyond magical study and delve into greater realities and understanding the mysterious of how multiverse works and the meaning to it all.
While I do think a new class would be ideal for this idea, I'm sure an archetype could cover the basics. Maybe for the Oracle, Wizard, or even the Cleric or Witch.
Anyone else have a thought on this?
This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.
Having run HERO (both FRED and 6th) yes you can. But as a GM, prepare to do A LOT of legwork. If you think Gming Pathfinder is homework, HERO is like college homework. The reason HERO has so many supplements is that it has a lot of pre-made stats for the GM to use, instead of spending a long time making them. Also, many of these have ways of setting of rules for different genres that can help get the feel of, say, sword and sorcery vs high fantasy. But I'd say, unless you have the free time to even quick stat a creature, a GM will need the "bestiary" and villain splat books.
And balance is tricky in HERO, much more so in my opinion than PF. Not all powers are balanced via point buy. You really have to keep an eye on things or else you get The Margarita Man...
I still love HERO, but it does have the same flaws that many generic systems come across. Albeit not as bad, since it really is a massive toolkit.
White mage: 1/2 full divine caster.+1
+2
I'm gonna hold my desires in check till I see the archetypes that enable some concepts I've got rolling around in my head.
Me too. Shaman could be an option even though it is a 3/4 BAB class.
Martial Shapeshifter. No or minimal casting, but designed to both fight and deal with other challenges in other forms from level one.
+100
Warlock
+1
I would also like:
A psionic
A Marshall type of class (Perhaps a Paladin/bard) - full BAB, no spells or 4/9 casting and a lot off Auras and performances types of buffs.
This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.And balance is tricky in HERO, much more so in my opinion than PF. Not all powers are balanced via point buy. You really have to keep an eye on things or else you get The Margarita Man...
I still love HERO, but it does have the same flaws that many generic systems come across. Albeit not as bad, since it really is a massive toolkit.
I agree. I have 150 pages of stuff made for my Fantasy Hero campaign (half of it my spells and spell system).
And I agree - in HERO balance is the GMs job, not the system's. That is why I play both HERO and PF. Hero for the play "anything I want within the campaign" and PF for a different kind of feel.
To answer the OP:
Incarnum in some new shape or form(reskin it with a new name, just update the rules).
Warlock
Shadowcaster(no, not a shadow-focused wizard).
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- A Full-BAB shapeshifter with little to no spell casting (What I hoped the Hunter would be).
- A Full-BAB Marshall-type of class with little to no spell casting that is actually effective. (Cavaliers simply don't work).
- An anti-caster class with no spell-casting, except, maybe a few SLA of anti-caster spells, such as Silence, Dispel Magic and Dimensional Anchor. Bonus points if it has a version of SR that actually helps them instead of nerfing the character.
- A full-BAB Marshall-type of class with little to no spell casting that is actually effective. (Cavaliers simply don't work).
Slayer?
Marshall and Martial get mixed up a lot, easy to mistake one for the other
- A full-BAB Marshall-type of class with little to no spell casting that is actually effective. (Cavaliers simply don't work).Slayer?
Marshall, not Martial.
This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.But does it do any balance for me as a GM?
It balances the same way every other RPG in existence does. You just say 'no, that's overpowered' and that's that.
It balances the same way every other RPG in existence does. You just say 'no, that's overpowered' and that's that.This is true. I've done a broad range of campaigns with just HERO.But does it do any balance for me as a GM?
If that is all it does, then I won't bother looking at it.
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To answer the OP:
Incarnum in some new shape or form(reskin it with a new name, just update the rules).
Paizo won't be touching that one, but fortunately a very reputable 3pp well known for their re-creation of 3.5 subsystems is on it.