Your experience sounds atypical. But yes, having more high stats does allow a monk to function better than a low point buy does. However, it still does nothing to stop the wizard from being more powerful no matter the ability scores.
It's really just core monks that aren't very good. Having poor stats just limits your options for what kind of monk to play if you don't want to suck (if you're in like a 15 point buy, zen archers are still okay since they're fairly SAD.)
Having higher stats just makes more kinds of monks viable.
Ability scores stop to matter past a certain point, as class abilities and other ways to apply those scores efficiently becomes more important. The base monk still has problems with the latter.
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A specific group's play style will have a significant effect of the effectiveness of any class, race, build, spell, whatever. The GM's likes and dislikes particularly have influence in this.
higher stats makes their MAD more manageable--though as said above, there's nothing to stop the wizard from just dumping that into even more obscene casting stat--at that point you just need to worry about boosting your accuracy and defenses to keep up with later monsters;i think the player AC baseline per level was 15+character level i think?
there's a chart in the 'creating monsters' section of the bestiary with average BAB/AC/saves-per-CR to compare a build to or strive for.
keep yourself at or above those and you'll be at least functional, if not the best ever (that's the full casters area no-martials-allowed).
monks (along with rogues) are still left in the muck of 'no full bab, no accuracy booster like-every-other-class-gets', so you'll have to jump onto anything you can get your grubby little mitts on to make things easier for you.
@jon otaguro: hate to be 'that guy', but post builds or it didn't happen--there are a LOT of tricks in the book that a monk would have to take to even get close to a 2HF, let alone pass him--all of which a fighter can take as well.
while i'm by no means a fighter-building expert, i'd be happy to toss up a build to compare yours to if you'd like. not meant to be condescending or anything--i just like building characters.
This is my character near the end of second darkness:
Level 16 hungry ghost monk
STR 32/34 (enlarge person)
Bonuses with haste/heroism/ki/enlarge personTo Hit(14 flurry+12 str-5 PA-1 large+2 heroism+5 magic+1 weapon focus+1 competence+1 haste)
Damage (+12STR+10PA+5Magic+1Trait)+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 Damage 4-32+28 x2/19-20; the two handed fighter can outdamage the monk on high AC opponents. On low AC opponents, the monk out damages the 2H fighter by using 9 attacks.
The tricks mainly come in at lower levels to keep you doing well:
*wand of mage armor with umd
*alchemist cohort with +5 potion of greater magic fang with alchemical allocation
*temple sword
alright, tossing a level 16 2hf together now it should be up shortly. i'm assuming dipping isnt allowed, and i'll be tacking on enlarge person, haste, and heroism as well (for the sake of comparison). assuming human for race.
some compliments: your attack accuracy is spot-on for your CR (as well as 'boss' CR), though how is your base damage 4-32?
looking at yours i'm going to say your assertion is likely correct
you specifically said the fighter was 'using every trick in the book' though. anyway, the build isn't to show you up or anything--it's mostly just wasting time and seeing what i can come up with.
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EDIT: alright, pretty much finished (not at all crazy optimized):
intimidating two-handed fighter (for comparison), 20PB:
str 26 (10+2r), dex 13 (3), con 18 (5), int 10, wis 12 (2), cha 10
+4 str (level), +4 str/con (belt)
traits: fortune's favored / indomitable faith (shore up will save)
feats:
1 - power attack, weapon focus (greatsword)
2 - furious focus
3 - intimidating prowess
4 - weapon specialization (greatsword)
5 - dazzling display
6 - lunge
7 - iron will
8 - greater weapon focus (greatsword)
9 - cornugon smash
10 - shatter defenses
11 - dazing assault
12 - greater weapon specialization (greatsword)
13 - dreadful carnage
14 - penetrating strike
15 - intimidating prowess
16 - greater penetrating strike
gear (315k WBL, no more than 1/3 on any one item):
weapon - +5 holy greatsword (98,3XXg) [+7 bonus total]
shield - N/A
armor - +5 deathless light fortification fullplate (50,650g) [+7 bonus total]
head - jingasa of the fortunate soldier (5,000g)
headband - headband of fortune's favor (7,700g)
eyes - eyes of the eagle (2,500g)
shoulders - cloak of resistance +5 (25,000g)
neck - amulet of natural armor +3 (18,000g)
chest - bane baldric (10,000g)
body - N/A
wrists - N/A
hands - gloves of dueling (15,000g)
belt - belt of physical might (str/con) +4 (40,000g)
boots - winged boots (16,000g)
ring1 - ring of protection +3 (18,000g)
ring2 - N/A
slotless - handy haversack (2,000g)
~5,000g to spend on ioun stones, missing slot items, etc.
attack: +39*/+34/+29/+24/+19 (16 bab, +9 str (enlarged), +5 enhance, +2 gtr wpn focus, +5 weapon training, +1 haste, +2 morale, -5 PA*, -1 size)
damage: 3d6 (large base)+2d6 (holy) +42/47 (+13/+18 (after 1st attack) str, +20 GPA, +5 weapon training, +4 gtr wpn spec), ignores 10 DR
AC: (10 +14 armor, +1 dodge, 0 dex, +3 natural, +3 deflection, +2 luck (jingasa+trait))
saves: 32/15/18
saves breakdown:
10/5/5 class,
4/0/1 stat (enlarged),
0/0/1 trait,
5/5/5 resistance,
2/2/2 luck (headband+trait),
2/2/2 morale,
0/1/0 haste,
0/0/2 feat
-5/+10 (x2 greater PA)
heroism: +2 attack, saves, skills [morale]
haste: +1 attack, +1 ac [dodge], +30 speed (all types, [enhancement]), extra attack (highest bab)
enlarge person: +2 str, -1 attack, base damage increases to 3d6
bane baldric: 5 rounds/day (swift action), +2 attack, +2d6 damage (not included in build due to inconsistency/nova)
could definitely do better on the traits, and could scrap the whole intimidation route for more power i'd assume.
rather stumped on item purchases though, or how you managed a strength in the 30s on your budget.
but yeah, your point is proven that your monk (and well-built monks in general) is/are functional at his level and above, and very likely has much better peripheral defenses (saves, touch/FF AC, immunities, etc.)
This is my character near the end of second darkness:
Level 16 hungry ghost monk
STR 32/34 (enlarge person)
Bonuses with haste/heroism/ki/enlarge personTo Hit(14 flurry+12 str-5 PA-1 large+2 heroism+5 magic+1 weapon focus+1 competence+1 haste)
Damage (+12STR+10PA+5Magic+1Trait)+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 Damage 4-32+28 x2/19-20; the two handed fighter can outdamage the monk on high AC opponents. On low AC opponents, the monk out damages the 2H fighter by using 9 attacks.
The tricks mainly come in at lower levels to keep you doing well:
*wand of mage armor with umd
*alchemist cohort with +5 potion of greater magic fang with alchemical allocation
*temple sword
I have a couple questions, now that it isn't possible but I'm just not sure where some things are coming from.
How is your strength so high? You would need to start with 18 strength from point buy, use human/half-orc/elf racial to strength, +6 belt to strength, all ability point increases to strength and enlarge person. That would get you 34 strength, but that would leave you with almost no points for anything else. Even if you did 25 point buy you would still have some big gaps. Unless you're using incredibly high point buys, this would create some major deficiencies.
Secondly, how are you getting 9 attacks? You get 7 from flurry as a 16th level monk. Haste will give you an extra attack.
Nevermind, just noticed you're using ki to get the extra attack. While, that can get you an extra attack, you can't really use that every round. Unless you do enough damage to knock out a creature every round you'll run out of ki very quickly. Even with the ability to steal it.
This is my character near the end of second darkness:
Level 16 hungry ghost monk
STR 32/34 (enlarge person)
Bonuses with haste/heroism/ki/enlarge personTo Hit(14 flurry+12 str-5 PA-1 large+2 heroism+5 magic+1 weapon focus+1 competence+1 haste)
Damage (+12STR+10PA+5Magic+1Trait)+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 Damage 4-32+28 x2/19-20; the two handed fighter can outdamage the monk on high AC opponents. On low AC opponents, the monk out damages the 2H fighter by using 9 attacks.
The tricks mainly come in at lower levels to keep you doing well:
*wand of mage armor with umd
*alchemist cohort with +5 potion of greater magic fang with alchemical allocation
*temple swordI have a couple questions, now that it isn't possible but I'm just not sure where some things are coming from.
How is your strength so high? You would need to start with 18 strength from point buy, use human/half-orc/elf racial to strength, +6 belt to strength, all ability point increases to strength and enlarge person. That would get you 34 strength, but that would leave you with almost no points for anything else. Even if you did 25 point buy you would still have some big gaps. Unless you're using incredibly high point buys, this would create some major deficiencies.
A Tome of Strength.
High attribute stat arrays definitely help MAD classes there is no doubt - but remember that stat increases in later levels also come from magic and magic items. Regardless of the initial array, a SAD character will always be able to sink more +stat items into one stat than a MAD character can.
Archetype monks aren't actually that bad though, especially the zen archer - it's mostly core monk which is horrible. Same can't be said for the poor rogue, who suffers from poor core AND splat rules :-(
A Tome of Strength.
Which are incredibly expensive, even at level 16. A +2 book represents about 20% of the characters total wealth.
And, I noted how to achieve such a stregnth. It was mostly to call attention that to do so would cause the character to really suffer in other avenues.
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Did I miss a ruling on monks and PA, or should PA be -4hit/+8 damage because a level 16 monk has 12 BAB?
Per the faq:
Monk: How does a monk's improved BAB when flurrying interact with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, which have different effects depending on your BAB?
The monk uses his improved flurrying BAB to determine the effect of those feats.
Did I miss a ruling on monks and PA, or should PA be -4hit/+8 damage because a level 16 monk has 12 BAB?This is my character near the end of second darkness:
Level 16 hungry ghost monk
STR 32/34 (enlarge person)
Bonuses with haste/heroism/ki/enlarge personTo Hit(14 flurry+12 str-5 PA-1 large+2 heroism+5 magic+1 weapon focus+1 competence+1 haste)
Damage (+12STR+10PA+5Magic+1Trait)+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 Damage 4-32+28 x2/19-20; the two handed fighter can outdamage the monk on high AC opponents. On low AC opponents, the monk out damages the 2H fighter by using 9 attacks.
The tricks mainly come in at lower levels to keep you doing well:
*wand of mage armor with umd
*alchemist cohort with +5 potion of greater magic fang with alchemical allocation
*temple sword
When flurrying, BAB is equal to monk level.
Edit: Ninja'd
I ask this because i know monks are mad, so if monks have good stats...do they still suck?
They never sucked, so no.
Yes, they are MAD and yes, their role/niche isn't as rigidly shoehorned as say the Fighter, but it's a complete myth that the Monk sucks, as evinced by the rest of your post, where you freely admit you enjoy playing them- a LOT.
High stats do make the monk powerful but they have to be really high. Nothing a 25 point buy will do. I've seen some crazy powerful monks from when a player rolled some crazy high stats.
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High stats do make the monk powerful but they have to be really high. Nothing a 25 point buy will do. I've seen some crazy powerful monks from when a player rolled some crazy high stats.
25 points can make a VERY strong monk with archetypes. It requires some system mastery, but they are much better off than rogues.
but it's a complete myth that the Monk sucks, as evinced by the rest of your post, where you freely admit you enjoy playing them- a LOT.
I ask this because i know monks are mad, so if monks have good stats...do they still suck?
Believe it or not, but it's possible to enjoy playing something that still sucks mechanically.
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Monk will still suck in a high point buy game, but not as badly, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. Hell, it's a really dull and boring way to "fix" the class that still doesn't accomplish its goal, but you could just award +1 to all six stats for each level in the monk class you take and the class still wouldn't be any better than middle tier.
(It's true, monk doesn't have to suck any more. But that requires playing it in a way that doesn't feel like the normal monk type character -- as an archer, or lance charger, or so forth. In armor if possible. Or by finding tricks to infinitely generate ki. If you just want to be a guy who punches and kicks. runs fast, has good defenses, and is supposedly good at mage hunting...you're going to have a bad time.)
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If you just want to be a guy who punches and kicks. runs fast, has good defenses, and is supposedly good at mage hunting...you're going to have a bad time.)
You can do all that and still be good. Martial Artist can be the traditional unarmed monk and do it effectively. Sense Weakness both gives you an accuracy boost and bypasses all DR or Hardness. It also give a boost to Stunning Fist DCs and makes it more reliable.
It's never going to be a caster, but it can be an effective and fun martial.
Monks at 15th level and above are scary strong. A 20th level hungry ghost monk (done up well) could wander hell without issue carving up the 9 hells as he pleased. At top level they can be insanely strong. Better than any other melee/ranged class and better than most casters IMO.
At very low level they are good with good stats, fighters are better though. Mid level, fighters are still better. 10-12th and above they start to even up. By 15th monks are very strong and getting stronger.
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Monks at 15th level and above are scary strong. A 20th level hungry ghost monk (done up well) could wander hell without issue carving up the 9 hells as he pleased. At top level they can be insanely strong. Better than any other melee/ranged class and better than most casters IMO.
At very low level they are good with good stats, fighters are better though. Mid level, fighters are still better. 10-12th and above they start to even up. By 15th monks are very strong and getting stronger.
Well, in what way are they better? DPR? Sure! It's suppose to be the speciality of figther. But the Monk is still better than the Fighter in many situation since level 1.
First: mobility. Sure, he can't do that much DPR when he move, but he can go way faster than a fighter or a paladin (when no mount), giving protection to the weak or attacking the squishy monster with ease.
Second: less gear dependant. Not in the sens of gold, but in the sens of ''alway ready''. When you go outside of the typical ''room battle, it's really usefull to get a good ac with no armor, be it in a surprise night attack or in a naval battle. Or even if you are put in prison: a naked monk is far stronger than a naked paladin (well, the paladon do get huge charisma, so when naked...)
Third: more survivability. He do get fewer HP, and less ''raw AC'', but with the good Style feat (Snake or Crane) he will not be touch as much as the fighter. Also, he got probably the second best save of the game, behind the Paladin.
So at low level, the Monk is not really, in global view, behind the Fighter (or any other combat class in my opinion). The only area where the monk lack really is DPR.
For the question: no, they are stronger in high stat game. With high point build, the SAD class will tend to loose their edge (the mage will still buy a 18 in INT, and it's not the 12>15 in CON that change really it's strengh if you know what I mean) while MAD class will get more profit from it. That's the reason why my group always go for 25 pts build.
Not sure how the Monk in our game is spec, but most the time our Barbarian outdamages him, but the Monk is a specialist in taking out enemy casters.
I know he has 2 level of fleet, mobility and stunning fist so he move past enemy mooks fairly easy and spends his first turn getting face to face of the enemy caster and then uses stunning fist.
In many ways he is a one trick pony, but we love his trick.
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Back on topic . . . monks with high ability scores are FAR easier to play starting right out of the gate. In a recent thread asking "What Would You Do with Perfect Ability Scores?", I posted the following (well, I did change one feat, ditching Improved Initiative for Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, and fixed the bonus on skills . . . after I forget to add the +3 class skill bonus in the other thread, oops):
Well, let's take a look at a starting (1st level) character with all 18s (before racial modifiers), shall we?
Except for the touch AC (18, 19 w/Dodge) and the fact that he has three good saves at +6, he's really not out-of-line for a 1st level character. His normal and flat-footed AC are comparable to someone in armor, his attacks are right about the same as a Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin . . . when he isn't flurrying or they aren't using a masterwork weapon (which most players WILL have sometime before 2nd level!); his damage is comparable to a fighter using a short-sword; he has a lot of skills . . . but still not as many as a human Rogue or Bard. His Initiative is pretty good (+4), but a 1st level Rogue, Bard, or Ninja could beat him handily if they take the right feat (and even if they don't, some of them should have a 20 Dex starting, which is +5 by itself)!
Name: Horatius
Class: Monk
Race: Human
Level: 1stGender: Male
Height: 5' 11"
Weight: 171 lbs
Hair: Black
Eyes: Blue
Religion: Irori
Alignment: Lawful GoodStrength: 18
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 18
Intelligence: 20 (+2 human bonus)
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 18BAB: +0
Melee Attack (Unarmed Strike): +5 (1d6+4/20)
Flurry of Blows (Unarmed Strike): +4/+4 (1d6+4/20)
Ranged Attack (Shuriken): +4 (1d2+4/20/10')
Ranged Flurry of Blows (Shuriken): +3/+3 (1d2+4/20/10')Hit Points: 12 (d8+4)
Speed: 30'
Initiative: +4Armor Class: 18* (base 10, +4 Dex, +4 Wis)
Flatfooted: 14 (base 10, +4 Wis)
Touch: 18* (base 10, +4 Dex, +4 Wis)
*The Dodge feat will increase these by an additional +1 when activated against an opponent.Fort: +6 (+2 base, +4 Con)
Reflex: +6 (+2 base, +4 Dex)
Will: +6 (+2 base, +4 Wis)Stunning Fist: DC 14; 1/day
Feats (Human bonus and Monk bonus assigned): Deflect Arrows (Monk Bonus Feat), Dodge (Human Bonus Feat), Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Class Feat), Stunning Fist (Monk Class Feat), Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
Skills (Favored Class Bonus and Human bonus assigned; all at 1 rank [1 rank + 3 class skill + ability score of 4 or 5): Acrobatics +8, Climb +8, Escape Artist +8, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (History) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +9, Perception +8, Perform (Dance) +8, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +8, Swim +8
Equipment (average starting wealth of 35 gp): Backpack, Bedroll, Belt Pouch (2), Boots (Spare), Chalk (10), Flint & Steel, Hammer, Quarterstaff, Monk's Outfit (Spare), Piton (10), Rope (Hemp, 50'), Sealing Wax, Sewing Needle, Shuriken (25), Signal Whistle, Soap (1 lb), Torches (10), Trail Rations (10 days), Waterskin, Coin Pouch, 6 gp, 4 sp
Background: No one knows of the parents of Horiatus. As a babe mere weeks old, he was left in the dead of night at the gate of a local monastery; the monks took him in and raised him as their own adopted child. From early on in life, it was apparent that Horatius was special. Keen of mind and strong of body, his wit and charm and dexterity endeared him to the monks who trained and taught him. Many in the community in which he grew to adulthood believed him to be the child of a God . . . in other places, and other times, such adoration could have pushed Horatius to become selfish, intent only on his own personal gain.
But the monks of Irori taught the child well. He learned compassion and empathy alongside of the martial arts for which the Monastery was famed. In his 18th spring, Horatius set forth to discover his purpose in the world . . . and possibly whom his parents actually were (and why he was left on the threshold of the monastery). Eager for adventures to prove his worth (to himself, not others), Horatius hopes to find a cause larger than himself to serve.
Ask yourself . . . would you allow this character to join a party built with a 20-point buy? And would he not fit in with nary a whisper if the other players had no clue that his (base) stats were 18s across the board?
Yeah, the core monk is one of the weaker classes and MAD exasperates that, especially in lower level games. But, the higher the monk can get his stat array, the better it becomes. Even this array (equal to a 102-point buy (!!!)) isn't all that out-of-line with a party of 20- or 25-point buy characters.
At least in my opinion.
Sure, instead of putting the +2 human bonus in Intelligence (to boost skills), a more optimizing player might put it in Strength (boosting attacks and damage), Dexterity (if he takes Weapon Finesse to boost AC, Reflex, and attacks), or Wisdom (to boost Will and AC); all of those options boosting certain skills (and lowering others, c'est la vie). But hey, I like skills. That may just be me.
MA
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I've found monks to be very effective in my games, but my games are atypical for more reasons than just high stats. High stats no doubt help though. My players usually average what would be about a 42 point buy set of stats.
I also have full attacks as a standard action. Move and full attack makes the monk so much more viable.
I don't do attacks of opportunity from movement. So, you can go flank to give and get bonuses to hit. Use that mobility.
None of my players play full casters as solvers of all equations. When players I've had play full arcane casters, they love showy, big dice pool, damage spells, so they're not "god wizards" , just party members.
I also have Dex to hit as an automatic option on qualifying attacks, and use the weapon finesse feat to allow Dex to damage, so a monk need not be Ms. or Mr. Universe to do appreciable damage.
So, I don't think high stats alone will make the monk vastly better, but it doesn't hurt. :P
posting a few (largely unfinished) monk builds for posterity.
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posting a few (largely unfinished) monk builds for posterity.
love it!
a few notes:
the cleric sword weialder.
why crusader ? the 1 feat Vs 1 domain power ?
why not grab improve critical? power attack ?the sohei:
aint a animal companion form eldrich heritage better than nature's ally?
On crusader cleric: the bonus feat is worth more to the build than the domain power, as weapon focus is needed for crusaders flurry. Fitting the necessary feats into the build is very difficult.
As for the Sohei, eldritch heritage is better, if you can afford the CHA. Most monks cant.
Ultimate Combat pretty much fixed all the problems with the monk by introducing Style feats and this feat chain.
The only issue remaining comes from MAD mostly because monks lack and ability to obtain reliable damage as using a weapon like brass knuckles skimps you out on your class ability to increase your unarmed strike damage, but keeping use of that class ability means investing in an Amulet of Mighty Fists which conflicts with the need for an Amulet of Natural Armor (a big 6 item). It is also vastly expensive to invest in either Agile brass knuckles or the Amulet.
I would look forward to Advanced Class Guide next month and hope that our DEX to damage feat can also transpose to monks giving them the option of being less MAD.
Ultimate Combat pretty much fixed all the problems with the monk by introducing Style feats and this feat chain.
The only issue remaining comes from MAD mostly because monks lack and ability to obtain reliable damage as using a weapon like brass knuckles skimps you out on your class ability to increase your unarmed strike damage, but keeping use of that class ability means investing in an Amulet of Mighty Fists which conflicts with the need for an Amulet of Natural Armor (a big 6 item). It is also vastly expensive to invest in either Agile brass knuckles or the Amulet.
I would look forward to Advanced Class Guide next month and hope that our DEX to damage feat can also transpose to monks giving them the option of being less MAD.
EDIT: Crane Style is also still damn good, only conferring an even higher dodge bonus on your already ridiculous bonus instead of auto-blocking one attack.