As an avid fan of kobolds, I am kinda saddened at how low a PC race they are. And while they are fun, it's readily apparent how hard they can be to incorporate in a versatile manner.
That being said, I have a suggestion that I'm hoping Paizo will take into serious consideration: a +2 to a mental stat, or alternatively, a floating +2 to any mental stat.
Initially, I had considered just giving kobolds a simple -2 to STR and CON with their +2 to DEX, but the more I thought about it, the more it made better sense to give them a +2 to a mental ability. However, I am at a bit of a loss as to which one to give them, because each one can be made into a suitable argument.
A +2 to INT would make sense because, frankly, with a lack of physical prowess, it's only logical to assume that you would resort to brainpower to make up for your deficiency. In addition, Kobolds treat trapmaking as a racial pastime, and truly good trap creators are held as artists of their kind. That's not even factoring in their ability to manage and organize large numbers of tunnels and digging operations without havoc breaking out.
A +2 to WIS makes sense because, when you're as small as a kobold, you need to be a little more alert than other races; a lack of such could result in getting stepped on or squashed. Plus, some racial traits for kobolds indicate that they are a remarkably alert race, able to perceive and mimic sounds they hear in tunnels, and remain silently aware that something BIG is on the other side of that tunnel wall.
A +2 to CHA would make sense more for kobold sorcerers and other casters because, as mentioned in Kobolds of Golarion, caster kobolds tend to rise to positions of power and leadership among their tribes. Being influential would help them sway the rest of the tribe to their will.
My initial personal preference was a +2 to INT, since it made the most sense to me that kobolds would use their brains a little more than their muscles, violent though they may be. However, a floating +2 to any mental stat would certainly make them more versatile. I know goblins are Paizo's favorite monster race, but I think kobolds could use a bit more love too. It's my sincerest hope that Paizo would take this bit of info into serious consideration, but until then, this would certainly make them more handy in a homebrew scenario.
I prefer kobolts like they are i would also have likes Goblins a bit les uber ninja like. These are races that survive by doing what others wouldent sink to doing. They can handle bad stats. That is at least how i feel it.
Kobolds are cool and fun. Once you get a few levels in the stat difference really pretty much disappears as an important issue but the flavor never dies. Have you looked at Advanced Races Kobolds from Kobold Press?
one thing we've considered is combining attribute point buy with Race points.
For example GM might give 25 points to build a character with.
As a Kobold you use 5 points for Race and the other 20 for Attributes.
A Human would be 9 for race and 16 for Attributes.
A Dwarf would be 11 for race and 14 for Attributes
Aasimar would be 15 for race and 10 for attributes.
one thing we've considered is combining attribute point buy with Race points.
For example GM might give 25 points to build a character with.
As a Kobold you use 5 points for Race and the other 20 for Attributes.
A Human would be 9 for race and 16 for Attributes.
A Dwarf would be 11 for race and 14 for Attributes
Aasimar would be 15 for race and 10 for attributes.
This metod reminds a bit of the GURPS racial template system. I like the idea but the character creation system of PF is not complex enough in the buy and sell department to merit a system like this. IMOP.
As an avid fan of kobolds, I am kinda saddened at how low a PC race they are. And while they are fun, it's readily apparent how hard they can be to incorporate in a versatile manner.
I agree, kobolds are ridiculously underpowered. On a scale of 1 to 10, they are a 5 while most PC races are closer to 10.
If you own the Advanced Race Guide, there are easier solutions.
First, lose the light blindness. This helps a little.
Then, read through the section and rethink kobolds. This may be as unpopular as the Advanced Race Guide but it does offer some options.
* Ability Score Racial Traits: Kobolds are fast and nimble, and have become hardy and resilient after years spent toiling beneath the earth, but their small size makes them individually weak. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, and –2 Strength.
* Type: Kobolds are Humanoid creatures with the reptilian subtype.
* Size: Kobolds are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
* Base Speed: Kobolds have a base speed of 30 feet.
* Languages: Kobolds begin play speaking Common and Draconic. Kobolds with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aklo, Giant, Goblin, Naga, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
* Armored: A Kobold's naturally scaly skin grants them a +1 natural armor bonus.
* Crafty: Kobolds gain a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Craft (any metalworking), Perception, and Profession (miner) checks. Craft (traps), Craft (any metalworking), and Stealth are always class skills for a kobold.
* Weapon Familiarity: Kobolds are proficient with all picks and hammers, and treat any weapon with the word "kobold" in its name as a martial weapon. (Note: Most of the core rulebook "dwarven" and "gnomish" weapons are usually kobold or orc make, and thus may be associated with this talent.)
* Minesight: Kobolds can see perfectly in the dark up to 90 feet, but are automatically dazzled in bright light and take a –2 penalty on saving throws against effects with the light descriptor. Kobolds regularly produce sundark goggles from obsidian or onyx chips to protect their eyes when traveling on the surface; kobolds wearing such goggles lose the dazzled effect from light and reduce their save penalty versus light spells to -1.
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Although not particularly useful for a PC, I like the idea of granting kobolds the "Swarming" trait (usually a ratfolk racial).
I Think giving kobolts bonus on mental stats Will ruin them. Part of the attraction, at least for me, is the weakness. Get rid of that and it is no longer kobolts but just diminutive brilliant dragonmen.
Playing a weaker race by choice is fun, but only when you build your character well. You can compensate for the poor racial traits, especially if you're lucky with the dice, but dead's dead, and if you die: that's no fun. If you manage to survive, though, it's pretty awesome; definitely provides a sense of achievement. I suppose it's high risk, high reward.
actually having made a Kobold as a character myself i would loveto see some sort of boost to bring them up to speed. his name was draah-zhin the worlds sexiest Kobold rocking a 16 charisma
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How about something akin to Powerful Build, but in reverse? Basically, they are Small, but can count as being Tiny when it suits them? That would be useful.
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I bought Kobolds of Golarion with the intent of making up a kobold PC, and ended up in an all-kobold group! Unfortunately, the lack of high strength made things difficult, then everyone else died, but things are much more effective with just one in a mostly-medium group. I hope to get Leadership at level 7.
Though I do want kobolds to get a -2 +2 +2 stat modifier like most other playable races, they can work without it. That's why they tend to rely on traps and magic, though finesse rogues and urban barbarians could work well. Agile Maneuver Masters can help set things up for the others, but mostly, it comes down to being really careful or cowardly. Stealth, bluff and diplomacy would be more helpful than outright fighting, though kobold rangers, druids and cavaliers can direct animals who are more dangerous in a fight than they are.
Not to mention Summoners.
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Kobolds are meant to be crap. That's why they are always angry and snivelling. They are meant to be weak and unpleasant and I can't see why they would have a bonus to any mental stat.
Never liked them as a PC race. all because you can play one doesnt mean you always ought to. I really hated the 3.5 Venerable LoreDrake nonsense, I'm glad there are gone.
Having said that, the two PF Kobold archetypes I know of are both pretty interesting - the ones for Sorcerer and Gunslinger. They make the Kobold into good trap setters and ambush gunners which are their only sensible niches. That and nasty sneak attack cutthroat of course.
I played Kobolds in a proper/long campaign under the 3/5 rules, and to make up for the weakness I was allowed two Kobolds. More on that in a tic, but I want to comment on what others have already said.
I like the idea of giving Kobolds the Ratling "two a square" ability, as it allows the rules to reflect how nasty Kobolds are at combat, while also keeping them strongly bonded. They're clambering within very close space to one another, and even flank players when doing so.
As for giving them a mental buff, I would say Charisma should get it, describing that it's used as an "unaware of their own inability" gusto. That doesn't say I think they should get that as a fix, I don't think they're inherently broken, just incredibly tough to play.
Back to my two Kobolds. Considering the weakness to them, plus the length of play (we'd been through 10+ campaigns, this GM and I) I was given two Kobolds.
They worked quite well together. The two were brothers, one called Patch who was a Barbarian and had no idea how Kobolds were viewed in the world. The other was Seltzer who actually had a decent Int and wanted to bring Kobolds up in the world. He would try and speak to guards and explain the situation, with mildly embarassed references to the dragon-lineage, "But where is it, I hear you ask? Ahehe," who would eventually get knocked aside by the brother in favour of straight bashing.
The two weren't that great in combat, and the characters were genuinely split down the sides of physical ability and mental/interaction ability, and it allowed me to play along with the game while playing Kobold characters.
I don't believe that Kobolds should be brought up to scratch with every other race though, their inability is part of their real world charm. If you have a player who's much better than the rest of your players, have them play a Kobold. See if they can't achieve the same greatness with a lesser character, etc etc.
If I was going to employ a fix, it would be to make a campaign setting in which the residence DO revere the Kobolds according to their dragon lineage, despite nothing beyond the scaley appearance. In this way the Kobolds would have a much greater sway in social interactions (+2 any social situation), and using Intimidate to win combats before they even begin seems like a great flavourmatch for Kobolds winning on gusto, rather than any actual talent.
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As for giving them a mental buff, I would say Charisma should get it, describing that it's used as an "unaware of their own inability" gusto. That doesn't say I think they should get that as a fix, I don't think they're inherently broken, just incredibly tough to play.
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Exept if we buff them in the mental departement, they Will be more charming than elfs and they wont have any inability to be unaware of.
I Can see the need folks have to boost kobolt PCs but lifting the whole race out of ineptitude, is a sad and boring move.
I Think giving kobolts bonus on mental stats Will ruin them. Part of the attraction, at least for me, is the weakness. Get rid of that and it is no longer kobolts but just diminutive brilliant dragonmen.alchemists, and rogues.Kobolds are clever little bastards. All kobolds are Tucker's kobolds, I say! The -4 Str makes them puny enough.
You Can be both clever and cunning with out racial bonus to mental stats.
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How about something akin to Powerful Build, but in reverse? Basically, they are Small, but can count as being Tiny when it suits them? That would be useful.
That sounds familiar...
Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
How about something akin to Powerful Build, but in reverse? Basically, they are Small, but can count as being Tiny when it suits them? That would be useful.That sounds familiar...
Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Yes, this. Combine it with the ratfolk Swarming ability and you have something. I'll totally give kobolds both as a DM.
Kobolds would get bonus use out of the "squeeze as if they were Tiny" dealio. Lets them mine teeny tiny tunnels in the walls of the dungeon that they have littered with traps, and even the halfling will have to crawl to get through them and actually get to the kobolds themselves (and the teeny tiny tunnels are also trapped).
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I'm fond of -2 Str, +2 Dex and +2 Cha for more racially average kobolds.
For different options, Wyrmkin kobolds could be spawned in groups of two to five from unfertilized dragon eggs (and generally be loyal to their 'mother'). Those would have abilities based on their scale color, with skill bonuses to swim for black, green and white (descended from dragons with a swim speed), bonuses to heat / cold / acid / electrical saves for red and white (descended from dragons that are immune to fire, cold, acid or electricity), etc. A size-appropriate bite or claw attack could also jazz things up and make them more dangerous even if unarmed.
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Kobolds as a 10 pt. character race from the ARG.
Kobold Racial Traits
+2 Dex, –2 Str, +2 Int: Kobolds are fast and smart but not strong.
If you prefer Wis or Cha to Int, then alter it freely.
Reptilian: Kobolds are humanoids with the reptilian subtype.
Small: Kobolds are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on their combat maneuver checks and to Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Normal Speed: Kobolds have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Kobolds can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Armor: Kobolds have a +1 natural armor bonus.
Crafty: Kobolds gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Craft (traps) and Stealth are always class skills for a kobold.
Gliding Wings: Kobolds are born with wings that, while too weak for actual flying, do allow them to fall at a very slow and safe pace. Kobold can use their wings to glide. It can make a DC 15 Fly check to fall safely from any height without taking falling damage, as if using feather fall. When falling safely, it may make an additional DC 15 Fly check to glide, moving 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet it falls.
Languages: Kobolds begin play speaking only Draconic. Kobolds with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Common, Dwarven, Gnome, and Undercommon.
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Another Option: Kobolds as a 10 pt. character race from the ARG.
Kobold Racial Traits
+2 Dex, –4 Str, +2 Int: Kobolds are fast and smart but not strong.
If you prefer Wis or Cha to Int, then alter it freely.
Reptilian: Kobolds are humanoids with the reptilian subtype.
Small: Kobolds are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on their combat maneuver checks and to Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Normal Speed: Kobolds have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Kobolds can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Armor: Kobolds have a +1 natural armor bonus.
Crafty: Kobolds gain a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trap making), Perception, and Profession (miner) checks. Craft (traps) and Stealth are always class skills for a kobold.
Languages: Kobolds begin play speaking only Draconic. Kobolds with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Common, Dwarven, Gnome, and Undercommon.
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Reading the counter-arguments of, "They're supposed to be weak!" makes me want to envision a setting where kobolds have a better lot in life, the go-fers and diplomats of the subterranean races, thereby justifying a healthier, safer lifestyle and better stat modifiers.
Of course, depending on GM and back story, a PC can get a "kobold exemplar" with a suitably-explained bump from the ARG. I didn't take that route, but I might entertain it if a player asks about it. Part of their appeal is, after all, a self-assured species scrabbling to survive for a collective shot at the big time.
I think it says a lot about kobolds that you cn apply the giant simple template and they are still well within the range of player race.
Reading the counter-arguments of, "They're supposed to be weak!" makes me want to envision a setting where kobolds have a better lot in life, the go-fers and diplomats of the subterranean races, thereby justifying a healthier, safer lifestyle and better stat modifiers. . . .
I can see a young dragon improving a tribe of kobolds. They run errands and he protects them. More free time means more training which can also mean innovation. Eventually you have a progressive kobold tribe who just aren't what everyone expects.
scary harpy, I would suggest adding goblin to their list of languages they are able to learn. They probably bump into goblins (and walk away) more than most other races.
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Reading the counter-arguments of, "They're supposed to be weak!" makes me want to envision a setting where kobolds have a better lot in life, the go-fers and diplomats of the subterranean races, thereby justifying a healthier, safer lifestyle and better stat modifiers.
There was another game system in which kobolds filled a sort of 'evil dwarves' niche, a smallish subterranean race of crafters, who provided much of the advanced gear used by the 'evil races' (since, generally speaking, orcs and gnolls and ogres and goblins are pretty hopeless at crafting their own contemporary metal armor and weapons).
I'm not in love with that idea itself, but it was an interesting way to give them a role to play in the evil race sociology other than 'mockable speedbumps' (which is already covered by goblins).
I agree with making kobalds more in line with normal races, cause right now they are basically -1 ecl.
However, I think it shouldn't be through ability scores.
I agree with making kobalds more in line with normal races, cause right now they are basically -1 ecl.
However, I think it shouldn't be through ability scores.
What do you think it should be through?
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My kobold PC is a sorceress, claiming that a sovereign dragon taught her tribe advanced mathematics and incubation techniques ages ago. She's got standard kobold stats, but she's yellow, getting the Gold dragon bloodline because of avoiding making her things sound-based. She's a great party face and is also the stealthiest, which is helped along by the loud barbarian with Con as his highest stat. She isn't going to make close combat attacks or carry things anyway, so the stat penalties aren't much of an issue.
Giving them swarming does sound like a good idea, especially if there are ratfolk around with friendly terms.
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Third Option: Kobolds as a 9 pt. character race from the ARG.
Kobold Racial Traits
+2 Dex, –2 Str, +2 Int: Kobolds are fast and smart but not strong.
If you prefer Wis or Cha to Int, then alter it freely.
Reptilian: Kobolds are humanoids with the reptilian subtype.
Small: Kobolds are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on their combat maneuver checks and to Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Normal Speed: Kobolds have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Kobolds can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Armor: Kobolds have a +1 natural armor bonus.
Crafty: Kobolds have a +2 racial bonus on Perception and gain a +1 racial bonus on Craft (trap making) and Profession (miner) checks. Craft (traps) and Stealth are always class skills for a kobold.
Languages: Kobolds begin play speaking only Draconic. Kobolds with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Common, Dwarven, Gnome, and Undercommon.
Other racial qualities. For example ...
My personal version of kobolds add kneecapper and swarming, and agile maneuvers as a bonus feat, and at higher levels tend to specialize in things like tripping. Usually combine that with the sorcerers that pop up concentrating on status effects, grease spells etcetera.
How can a creature that is thematically weak , specialize in tripping? This just doesn't make sense, regardless of what mechanics say.
But yes, other racial qualities, such as quick trap making, abilities that give enhanced use of environment, perhaps invisibility as an SLA.
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Reading the counter-arguments of, "They're supposed to be weak!" makes me want to envision a setting where kobolds have a better lot in life, the go-fers and diplomats of the subterranean races, thereby justifying a healthier, safer lifestyle and better stat modifiers.
This is pretty much why I gave them the stats I did in my setting. They're a standard PC race for us, accepted by all but the most xenophobic communities, and are the prime underground-dwelling, mining and smithing specialized race in the setting - we made Dwarves pirates, sailors, and explorers so they wouldn't have to fight for a niche with Kobolds and vice versa.
Other racial qualities. For example ...
My personal version of kobolds add kneecapper and swarming, and agile maneuvers as a bonus feat, and at higher levels tend to specialize in things like tripping. Usually combine that with the sorcerers that pop up concentrating on status effects, grease spells etcetera.
I understand your point of view.
I feel swarming would work best if Kobolds are the PCs' enemies or if the PCs are all Kobolds.
I consider the Kobold as another PC race and s/he would probably be in a mixed party. If you do not alter the ability scores, then Kobolds have very low Strength, low Constitution and light blidness; they gain nothing for this.
I gave 3 options for Kobolds depending on how much alteration someone might be comfortable with. All of them are tougher, can see in daylight and have a bonus to a mental attribute. Any of these builds could function as the lone Kobold in party.
I am currently playing two kobold PCs. One is RAW but as the group uses 25 point buy it's not that bad. The second one got the primitive template (which is somewhat over the top with its bonus feats).
Both seem to work out well. The second one is, in fact, the one best suited to killing enemies by damage in the group.
my take on buffing the kobolds as a race would not include stat bonuses but other stuff.
- swarming trait
- remove light blindness
- give them draconic aspect as bonus feat
A specific bonus feat is worth much less than a free one (compare human and half-elf), the light blindness means that nearly every pc kobold has to take day raider (unless the light blindness is hand-waved) and swarming is just fitting.
I like the idea of a kobold and a ratfolk fighting alongside each others, or intertwined or... whatever.
One very strong aspect about kobolds is that they can easily qualify for the noxious bite feat which is especially strong with their high breath save DC. It uses their full character level instead of the more common half.