I like it, but, admittedly, I tend to build my martial characters to have a good deal of battlefield control, which for the most part rely on and make use of AoOs. For just your normal fighter or other melee character it's not as useful.
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AC tanks seem to be suboptimal in my experience because most monsters with at least some INT are going to figure out after 1 or 2 rounds they can't hit the Armor Master Fighter and are going to switch targets. All the AC in the world doesn't mean anything when no one rolls an attack roll against you (in a game with many other avenues of defeating armor, like attacking your saves, or Touch AC, or CMD).
This is generally true unless you're a monk. Good luck hitting their saves, ac, cmd or touch ac. ;)
Some teamwork builds can make great use of combat reflexes.
Just to name only a few relevant teamwork feats: Outflank, paired opportunists, broken wing gambit, broken paw gambit, seize the moment
what I do not know if having both outflank and seize the moment allows two AOOs. One provokes from confirming a crit, the other from scoring a crit.
AC tanks seem to be suboptimal in my experience because most monsters with at least some INT are going to figure out after 1 or 2 rounds they can't hit the Armor Master Fighter and are going to switch targets. All the AC in the world doesn't mean anything when no one rolls an attack roll against you (in a game with many other avenues of defeating armor, like attacking your saves, or Touch AC, or CMD).This is generally true unless you're a monk. Good luck hitting their saves, ac, cmd or touch ac. ;)
Yeah, but they really have no good ways in making sure you pay attention to them. Maybe their defenses are good, but a smart foe would just turn his attention to the wizard or whoever else in the party. Maybe you risk an AoO, but Monks' AoOs tend to be pretty bad, as their MADness, combined with 3/4 BAB progression, combined with a potentially lackluster enchantment bonuses (if the DM hasn't thrown them a bone with AoMF or Enchanted monk weapons).
Tanking generally requires that you have a good reason for your foes to not just ignore you. Monks don't really have that.
AC tanks seem to be suboptimal in my experience because most monsters with at least some INT are going to figure out after 1 or 2 rounds they can't hit the Armor Master Fighter and are going to switch targets. All the AC in the world doesn't mean anything when no one rolls an attack roll against you (in a game with many other avenues of defeating armor, like attacking your saves, or Touch AC, or CMD).This is generally true unless you're a monk. Good luck hitting their saves, ac, cmd or touch ac. ;)Yeah, but they really have no good ways in making sure you pay attention to them. Maybe their defenses are good, but a smart foe would just turn his attention to the wizard or whoever else in the party. Maybe you risk an AoO, but Monks' AoOs tend to be pretty bad, as their MADness, combined with 3/4 BAB progression, combined with a potentially lackluster enchantment bonuses (if the DM hasn't thrown them a bone with AoMF or Enchanted monk weapons).
Tanking generally requires that you have a good reason for your foes to not just ignore you. Monks don't really have that.
Depends on the build. A reach weapon can alter that a bit, particularly on a monk with the sohei archetype. Weapon training and turning yourself into a circle of pain 25' across can do a lot.
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@Tholomyes, you clearly have not heard my arguments favoring monk tanking or seen my builds demonstrating the stupidly long list of methods at their disposal to do it.
I contend they are at least among the most versatilile (and vie for best) tanks in the game. And that considers their madness and bad design elements.
I have even shown how a core monk using mostly core feats can fulfill the role of tank quite well. It is difficult to ignore any monk that is built not to be ignored.
I've got an underwealthed 6 level monk with an effective DC 25 stunning fist in pfs (actual DC is 21 and he gives -2 or -4 to enemy saves with no save to avoid either of those effects). He can do this on a regular attack and once he has wealth appropriate for his level, on a touch attack, too.
That is not an easy save to make. Stunning a boss most of the time means that when he is missed or makes his save, he will prioritize stopping my monk as losing their entire turn, repeatedly, is clearly the biggest threat.
Flowing monks have built in quality tanking mechanisms which can be exploited with any forethought.
Hungry ghost monks built with good str and con are natural tanks who function like normal but require less ac and focus more of their HP buffer and Ki restoration.
Monks of the sacred mountain get free HP and armor bonuses and are an excellent chassis for any tank build since the survival part comes free and gets better with level, without effort.
Drunken masters have additional ki, access to drunken feats and superior mobility than most classes (including other monks). They also have the ability to enhance their damage. They can make unorthodox but excellent tanks I'm the traditional sense of 'I am a tank purely because I can deal damage and take a couple of hits'.
I made a monk who had a poor attack bonus (+8 with magic items at level 8 or 9) who hit like a girl with his 13 strength. Yes, he had stupid ac. No, no one in their right mind would ever say he was not a good tank. Enemies ultimately had no choice but to target him if they wanted to kill any nearby allies with melee (and I believe also ranged) attacks.
As you can see, just by listing basic archetypes, I am showing that monks can tank-and well. Accuracy is the most common tool for tanking but is in no way shape or form a requirement. The same is true of damage dealing. A monk can never hit and never do any damage and tank amazingly well.
I have been using combat reflexes for so long that despite the logic that lead me to not taking the feat, I still feel naked without it. Like something is missing.
I guess combat reflexes has always felt like it was a feat equivelant of 'the big six' in magic items; stuff you just nearly always get for almost every character.
IMO, even a dex +0 character with a reach weapon should take Combat Reflexes. It's that good.What is gonna be the fun of that?When the opponent gets initiative on you &tries to charge into your reach, you have a nice suprise for them.
Not sure it's worth it just for that though.
It can be. Remember the only thing stopping you from getting combat maneuvered is an AoO. So if an orc has a spot of inspiration and runs up to disarm you rather than hit you in the face there's not much you can do.
Not sure if anyone already pointed it out, but one of the best parts of Combat Reflexes is that it allows you to make AoOs while flat-footed, which means even if ambushed and before your turn, you can smack someone or something (like a tiger) on its opening charge. In rare instances you might even end up killing everything before you take your turn.
Given that martial characters in a traditional 4 roles party can easily reach a +7 Dexterity by end game, Combat Reflexes never stops being your friend.
It can be. Remember the only thing stopping you from getting combat maneuvered is an AoO. So if an orc has a spot of inspiration and runs up to disarm you rather than hit you in the face there's not much you can do.IMO, even a dex +0 character with a reach weapon should take Combat Reflexes. It's that good.What is gonna be the fun of that?When the opponent gets initiative on you &tries to charge into your reach, you have a nice suprise for them.
Not sure it's worth it just for that though.
Pehaps if this is happening a lot but considering everything that can happen in a adventuering carrer i dont Think this happend to every one. And if it Does i suggest taking improved initiative and skill focus perception before investing in combat reflexes if your dex modify is +0. But then again i would most likely suggest you aim to get more dex if you plan to run around with a reach weapon.
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I have 4 eidolons in PFS. One retired, another at 10 level, others at 4th/3rd. All of them have reach on the bite with trip. Even with that trip, the number of times they.have taken more than 1 AoO in a round is less than 10 total. It is almost universally used just to take AoO _WITH_REACH_while flatfooted.
Between multiple summoners, eidolons and Bbn/Alc, I have 9 bodies useing Combat reflexes with reach from either Eidolon evolutions or weapons.like: meteor hammer, dwarven dorn deggar, double karma, lance. Again, even with trip from eidolons, I have been able to attack more than once on a round with Combat Reflexes less than 10 times total.
I do nit think anyone has mentioned this. I have also noticed that when you have reach, GMs tend to go attack someone else rather than provoke. This is almost.like a pseudo defense. "I wear light light armor, low/medium dex, and no shield, all adding up to low AC, but come attack me and I will hit you first."
I have 4 eidolons in PFS. One retired, another at 10 level, others at 4th/3rd. All of them have reach on the bite with trip. Even with that trip, the number of times they.have taken more than 1 AoO in a round is less than 10 total. It is almost universally used just to take AoO _WITH_REACH_while flatfooted.
Between multiple summoners, eidolons and Bbn/Alc, I have 9 bodies useing Combat reflexes with reach from either Eidolon evolutions or weapons.like: meteor hammer, dwarven dorn deggar, double karma, lance. Again, even with trip from eidolons, I have been able to attack more than once on a round with Combat Reflexes less than 10 times total.
I do nit think anyone has mentioned this. I have also noticed that when you have reach, GMs tend to go attack someone else rather than provoke. This is almost.like a pseudo defense. "I wear light light armor, low/medium dex, and no shield, all adding up to low AC, but come attack me and I will hit you first."
How often are you taken flatfootet?
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Combat Reflexes can be nice. If the DM changes tactics to avoid your AoOs you've already gained a measure of control over the fight. Obviously it is a lot better when combined with other abilities.
Reading this thread has inspired me to look at whether I can fit Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp into my Dirty Fighter build. The PC's Dex won't be super high, but being able to hit a foe twice on the way down and once again on the way up would be cool. If he stays down to avoid the AoO I can take advantage of the +4 to hit with Power Attack.
Of course I'll be a sitting duck for touch attacks, and I'll have horrible saves, but that's probably true for most Fighters.
I had not noticed before that combat reflexes dropped the 13 dex prerequisite. Interesting.
The Mountain Giant in 3.5 has Dex 8 and combat reflexes, so it actually got an AoO...and with reach 30' or something, even when flat footed!
==Aelryinth
Absolutely worth it if you also have mythic combat reflexes. Especially if you combine it with large size and a reach weapon. You can have a crappy dexterity score and a huge strength score if your willing to take one level of monk to skip the prerequisites.
@Tholomyes, you clearly have not heard my arguments favoring monk tanking or seen my builds demonstrating the stupidly long list of methods at their disposal to do it.
** spoiler omitted **...
[derail]I would honestly be very interested in those builds. Not as a doubting thomas, but because I like the monk thematically and am always interested in good viable monk builds, so as to perhaps use them someday.
If you happen to have character sheets/full builds for any of those monks I would love if you would either start a thread and post them or PM them to me.
Sorry I am a monk enthusiast.[/derail]
I have found combat reflexes to be wonderful when needed and absolutely dead weight when not. I would agree that it is a feat where if your build compliments it is wonderful, but otherwise is very lukewarm.
Just my opinion of course.
Absolutely worth it if you also have mythic combat reflexes. Especially if you combine it with large size and a reach weapon. You can have a crappy dexterity score and a huge strength score if your willing to take one level of monk to skip the prerequisites.
Prerequisites for what?
Combat Reflexes can be nice. If the DM changes tactics to avoid your AoOs you've already gained a measure of control over the fight. Obviously it is a lot better when combined with other abilities.
Reading this thread has inspired me to look at whether I can fit Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp into my Dirty Fighter build. The PC's Dex won't be super high, but being able to hit a foe twice on the way down and once again on the way up would be cool. If he stays down to avoid the AoO I can take advantage of the +4 to hit with Power Attack.
Of course I'll be a sitting duck for touch attacks, and I'll have horrible saves, but that's probably true for most Fighters.
And even if you rarely have more than 1 AoO in a round...well, just being able to do it multiple times means you always have that threat looming around the battlefield.
It means that the 25' circle of pain doesn't disappear just because the GM sacrificed some small mook in order to have the rest of his horde go unscathed.
Absolutely worth it if you also have mythic combat reflexes. Especially if you combine it with large size and a reach weapon. You can have a crappy dexterity score and a huge strength score if your willing to take one level of monk to skip the prerequisites.Prerequisites for what?
13 dex?
13 dex?Absolutely worth it if you also have mythic combat reflexes. Especially if you combine it with large size and a reach weapon. You can have a crappy dexterity score and a huge strength score if your willing to take one level of monk to skip the prerequisites.Prerequisites for what?
They seem to have removed that prerequisite. Now, anyone can take the feat.
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I do nit think anyone has mentioned this. I have also noticed that when you have reach, GMs tend to go attack someone else rather than provoke. This is almost.like a pseudo defense. "I wear light light armor, low/medium dex, and no shield, all adding up to low AC, but come attack me and I will hit you first."
How often are you taken flatfootet?
Not often at all given the above.
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IMO, even a dex +0 character with a reach weapon should take Combat Reflexes. It's that good.What is gonna be the fun of that?When the opponent gets initiative on you &tries to charge into your reach, you have a nice suprise for them.
Not sure it's worth it just for that though.
I'm making a new Foehammer fighter with a dwarven longhammer (reach), and probably 12 dex, and I was figuring Combat Reflexes would be worth getting early, just for that.
I do nit think anyone has mentioned this. I have also noticed that when you have reach, GMs tend to go attack someone else rather than provoke. This is almost.like a pseudo defense. "I wear light light armor, low/medium dex, and no shield, all adding up to low AC, but come attack me and I will hit you first."
That's my Lore Warden fighter in a nutshell. Because that archetype gives up medium and heavy armor proficiency, his AC just comes from 14 dex and a chain shirt. But I've got a guisarme (tripping reach weapon) with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes already at level 2. Anyone who walks up trying to attack me will get tripped before they get into range, then attacked for HP damage when they stand up.
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I think the concensus is that tripping gets less effective as you go up in level.
Tripping is always effective if you are fighting man sized humanoid creatures. The problem is that as you level, you start fighting gargantuan creatures with multiple legs, creatures that are flying, and creatures that are simply immune to tripping.
After level 10, that's the vast majority of things you fight.
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I think the concensus is that tripping gets less effective as you go up in level.Tripping is always effective if you are fighting man sized humanoid creatures. The problem is that as you level, you start fighting gargantuan creatures with multiple legs, creatures that are flying, and creatures that are simply immune to tripping.
After level 10, that's the vast majority of things you fight.
Yup. My tripping focused Lore Warden is for Pathfinder Society, which pretty much ends after level 11. There are a few adventures you can play beyond that level, but I have enough other characters I'd prefer to level up and play at higher levels, so I'm pretty sure this guy will get retired when/if he hits 12.
And it's not like I don't have a backup plan for what to do in combat when faced with untrippable stuff. He's still a fighter with 18 strength and a guisarme, after all. I'll give him Power Attack and Weapon Specialization at levels 3 and 4 for extra damage (he already has Weapon Focus: Guisarme).
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Maneuvers are still good when you're fighting people. They get less effective when you don't.
Also, if you're going to be a pole-fighter, don't forget to spike your armor.
Speaking as a DM, I love combat reflexes. THat being said, I don't get to use it much thanks to the party rogue having the 'shut down AoOs' rogue talent.
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Maneuvers are still good when you're fighting people. They get less effective when you don't.
Also, if you're going to be a pole-fighter, don't forget to spike your armor.
Speaking as a DM, I love combat reflexes. THat being said, I don't get to use it much thanks to the party rogue having the 'shut down AoOs' rogue talent.
For the Lore Warden with guisarme, I think I gave him a spiked gauntlet. So he can't threaten both 5 and 10 feet away simultaneously, but he can switch back and forth on his attacks as a free action.
For the Foehammer with the Dwarven Longhammer as a reach weapon, he has a Dwarven Boulder Helmet, which lets him headbutt enemies for 1d4+STR damage. And I'll be taking the Hard-Headed feat to get a +1 on attacks with a helmet. The Advanced Race Guide has some great stuff for martial dwarves!
So, what ways are there to take advantage of Attacks of Opportunities in nonstandard ways?
Swashbuckler gets build in parries as AoOs which are great. There's the Bodyguard feat. What else?
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So, what ways are there to take advantage of Attacks of Opportunities in nonstandard ways?
Swashbuckler gets build in parries as AoOs which are great. There's the Bodyguard feat. What else?
Me big, tough barbarian. Me take Combat Reflex at level 11, then get Come and Get Me rage power at level 12, with 16 dex. Me now get 7 attacks per round, 5 at full BAB, as long as bad guys keep tryin' ta hit me.
I got CR in one game, used it as the brigands rushed past me for the squishies. 3/4 dead. Real result: the 'dm' generated a total of 17 AoOs after that night in his campaign, none remotely near me.
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Yes, thank you.Isn't there a feat that allows a character with a reach weapon to attack adjacent foes? I seem to remember one but cannot recall the name of it.It's not PF, but was Short Haft what you were thinking of?
Concerns about threatening 'adjacent foes' when you have a reach weapon are overblown. Do we worry that non-reach warriors can't threaten 10' away? If not, why be concerned that reach warriors can't threaten 5' away? 90% of the time it's not an issue. That said, there are several ways to deal with the issue when it comes up:
1. Armor spikes let you threaten adjacent, even with strict PFS rules. What your arms and hands are doing doesn't matter. The only drawback is the extra weight.
2. Spiked gauntlet, cestus, etc are another proposed clever solution. These might be fine in a home game, but do not work for PFS play. They don't seem to allow adjacent AoOs, by RAW, when using the hand in questions to hold a [reach] weapon. Numerous Rules threads belabor this topic. Expect table variation.
3. Spend a feat, or other valuable resource, to threaten adjacent. This is surprisingly difficult, because all the options are 'partial'. E.g. attack but with penalties, only improved unarmed attacks, etc.
4. Carry a backup weapon or five.
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Yes, thank you.Isn't there a feat that allows a character with a reach weapon to attack adjacent foes? I seem to remember one but cannot recall the name of it.It's not PF, but was Short Haft what you were thinking of?Concerns about threatening 'adjacent foes' when you have a reach weapon are overblown. Do we worry that non-reach warriors can't threaten 10' away? If not, why be concerned that reach warriors can't threaten 5' away? 90% of the time it's not an issue. That said, there are several ways to deal with the issue when it comes up:
1. Armor spikes let you threaten adjacent, even with strict PFS rules. What your arms and hands are doing doesn't matter. The only drawback is the extra weight.
2. Spiked gauntlet, cestus, etc are another proposed clever solution. These might be fine in a home game, but do not work for PFS play. They don't seem to allow adjacent AoOs, by RAW, when using the hand in questions to hold a [reach] weapon. Numerous Rules threads belabor this topic. Expect table variation.
3. Spend a feat, or other valuable resource, to threaten adjacent. This is surprisingly difficult, because all the options are 'partial'. E.g. attack but with penalties, only improved unarmed attacks, etc.
4. Carry a backup weapon or five.
Most of the problems with #2 and 4 involve having to switch weapons, so you're not threatening both 5 and 10 feet away simultaneously. There are backup weapons that overcome this, though, such as the armor spikes you suggest in #1. Also, dwarven stone helmet from Advanced Race Guide, though it's exotic unless you're a dwarf (in which case it's martial). And any race with a bite attack (kitsune, optional for half-orc, tiefling, etc) are good.
For the spiked gauntlet, if you decide that threatening 5' would be better than threatening 10' you can take your hand off the reach weapon as a free action during your turn.
There are various magic items which grant a natural attack though I've avoided them so far due to RP issues. I didn't want my Paladin/Bard to bite and gore people even if he'd get Smite damage, and I especially didn't want him to look ratlike. I could imagine my Viking getting a variant of the Mammoth Lord helm for a Gore if the DM in that game agrees though. In that case the damage would be sort of insignificant, but the RP aspect might be amusing.