Doing ranged with anything but a bow is a trap. If your GM is nice try and talk him into reskining a bow to look like a xbow, if not I would avoid it personally.
You could use the Crossbowman archetype, and focus on readied Vital Strikes (a double crossbow would boost the damage a bit). At level 7, your target is always flat-footed against your readied attacks, so you could go Rogue after that.
Or you could take Crossbow Mastery to let you do full attacks, which means you'd basically be a regular archer, but with different crit stats, no Str bonus, and a two-feat tax (Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery).
You are right that the crossbow isn't the best weapon, that doesn't mean it can't be viable if handled correctly.
The disadvantages of a crossbow is you don't get STR bonus to damage, and it requires a feat to reload as a free action, so if you have your heart set on a crossbow, you need to figure out how you are going to do reasonable damage in combat (this won't be a huge issue at low levels, but gets bigger the more levels you gain), and get the required feats.
Deadly aim is one quick easy way any character can boost damage, but it also benefits high BAB characters more - which means going high BAB is probably best.
The obvious choice that comes to my mind is a human paladin. Human gets you the bonus feat, Paladin gets you the damage (with smite). Fighter would be OK too.
Keep in mind that you will always be a little less than you could be using a crossbow instead of another ranged weapon, but it doesn't mean you would be useless.
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Idea over optimization. Always.
Go with the fighter/ Crossbowman: you will add half your Dex to damage at level 7. Don't try to ''full attack'': go with the Vital strike + critical focus road, and try to always use the ready action: shot. You will be the worst nightmare of caster. With this, at level 8 you should do 2d10+5 with a crit range of 17-20/x2, without any magical crossbow. It's not awsome, but you will sting, especially. You can even take some level in Rogue/Sniper: you deny dex on ready action, so easy sneak attack.
Inquisitor gets Reapting Crossbows for free. With the Endless Ammuntion special ability, you can make a full attack with a crossbow without a single feat.
Getting repeating crossbow for free is good, but the Fighter and the Ranger can get it with the feat, and since they got more ranged feat than a Inquisitor, it don't do a huge difference. And the Endlees Ammunition is a +2 bonus... quite costly. For this build, the Ranger can cast Abundant Ammunition and gravity Bow for a better build.
But, I don't really like it. Sure, the ''full attack round'' road is better than the standard action, but you will be nothing more than a wanabe archer, but worst (no strengh, no many shot...). That's why I prefer the ready action road: it's quite different and use a different strategie, where the random archer don't shine that much.
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In practice, being able to constantly shut down spellcasters is more valuable than the straight DPR comparison would seem to indicate. Depending on your Rogue Archetype or talents, you can stack a dispel and Sickened or a Dirty Trick with each shot.
Damage is not as good as a full attack build. That isn't in question. But the one action per round can be worth it.
A trap? No. Different? Yes!
Sure, the archer do more damage per round, but it's not all. Against boss, the crossbowman with the ready action can ruin the life of his casting capacity (concentration check each round, ouch!), and it can be more usefull than trying to gor ''arm race'' and kill it before it charm the archer.
In addition, against monster with huge DR, the crossbow may be better (more damage per attack, so less damage blocked).
So no, it's not a trap IMO(well, for the huge fan of DPR, yes it is, but for the others, not really).
Other than a Crossbowman 7/sneak attacker X build I think there is another strong one out there.
Alchemist. Take Explosive Missile. Now you can load and shoot a Heavy Crossbow as a standard action, while adding bomb damage to the bolt. Oh and you can use poison, and a mutagen, and make Greater Alchemical Simulacrums...
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In practice, being able to constantly shut down spellcasters is more valuable than the straight DPR comparison would seem to indicate. Depending on your Rogue Archetype or talents, you can stack a dispel and Sickened or a Dirty Trick with each shot.
Damage is not as good as a full attack build. That isn't in question. But the one action per round can be worth it.
In practice full archery DPR will shut down caster more efficiently. Thee is the no AoO when firing the bow, sorry that the crossbow need two feats instead of one for that.
Besides, is there a diference in the damage with the readied action? half dex to damage is ridicously low.
That why there is the rogue muilticlass. You don't care about half dex to damage, you care about denying dex to AC. This lets you sneak attack on every hit, and apply riders on sneak attack damage.
As for the AoO, who cares? You are more mobile as you don't need to use full round actions, so you can move to a place where you aren't threatened to shoot.
Yes the full attack archer is better. But with proper build and tactics, the crossbowman can perform well enough and be different from all of the identical archery builds out there.
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Rather than starting a bows vs crossbows argument, can we focus on ways that crossbows can be effective rather than comparing them to say archers or casters?
I like making subpar things optimized enough to contribute fully. I think it is awesome to show up with a character, have everyone ask "you do what?" and then 3 sessions later go "that is actually pretty cool, I've never seen an X be effective before." I assume the OP is trying for a character like that rather than a DPR archer. Most of us making suggestions are well aware that a bow user or full caster is gonna be stronger than a crossbow user made by the same person, but if the goal is contribute my 20% or 25% to the groups success rather than be as strong as possible, who cares?
It was not a bow vs crossbow, it was a crossbowman vs whatever other class. Straight crossbowman archetype sucks, IMHO.Rather than starting a bows vs crossbows argument, can we focus on ways that crossbows can be effective rather than comparing them to say archers or casters?
There is no such thing as optimizing a crossbow user. You will always be far behind the archer.
Crossbows are not bows. While +X Adaptive Composite Longbows are the weapon of choice for adventurers, this is only for adventurers. Most NPCs don't have the money for those for starters. Crossbows are only effective in situations where money is a concern or a character has some special ability that is more effective or only possible with a crossbow. So the only viable crossbow builds are those who aren't trying to be archers but are trying to use an actual strength of the crossbow.
In addition, against monster with huge DR, the crossbow may be better (more damage per attack, so less damage blocked).
If mythic, you could multiclass fighter (crossbowman) and cleric of Abadar, taking the Channel Smite and Guided Hand feats. Channel Smite can only be used with melee attacks, so it's definitely a feat tax, but nothing in the description of Guided Hand states that the weapon must be melee. Indeed, it applies to your deity's favored weapon, which for Abadar is the light crossbow. Thus, when using the mythic version of the feat, you'd apply your Wisdom modifier on attack and damage rolls with your crossbow. Score!
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Nicos, I'm not ignoring the advice you gave, I'm disagreeing with it. I think all three of the pieces of advice are totally wrong. I would advise anyone wanting to play a crossbow user to ignore all of it and listen to the people who actually have crossbow builds they like. Imbicatus has explained his Crossbowman/Rogue build before. I like it and think it is a cool niche build. I have shared my Explosive Missile build before. These are builds that work better with a crossbow than a bow. You are telling people how to make lousy knock off archers, and I don't think most people want to play that.
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Personally, I'd go Fighter(Weapon Master)/3 and Slayer. Keeps your BAB to the highest, and Favored Target makes for a nice static buff you can control. The 3 levels in Weapon Master grant you Weapon Training early so you can use Gloves of Dueling to boost that to be +3. If you're bold and daring, take a single level Ranger dip so you can use Gravity Bow wands for 2d8 heavy crossbow goodness.
And of course, Bracers of Falcon's Aim when you can :)
Nicos, I'm not ignoring the advice you gave, I'm disagreeing with it. I think all three of the pieces of advice are totally wrong. I would advise anyone wanting to play a crossbow user to ignore all of it and listen to the people who actually have crossbow builds they like. Imbicatus has explained his Crossbowman/Rogue build before. I like it and think it is a cool niche build. I have shared my Explosive Missile build before. These are builds that work better with a crossbow than a bow. You are telling people how to make lousy knock off archers, and I don't think most people want to play that.No problem with disagreeing, I was just pointing that I did give personal advices to play crossbow user.
I have to see with more care the explisive missile build, but it actually works better with a crossbowman archetype?
And I still can not see the point of the crossbowman/rogue build besides bing diferent. For start the DPR will be lower than a weapon master full attacking build by far. He/She will certainly have more mobility but unless specific magic item he/she will still need to remain within 30 ft of the target. And the worst thing is that the build only come into his own at mid to high levels.
If I go with crossbow I would go lorewarden just because I do would not use heavy armor and the bonus to CMD is good to not get disarmed/grappled/sundered.
Lower, yes. But it's a standard, so he can move and ready action. For the time whent the archer cannot kill the Stone Giant Wizard 10 in one round, it's better to shut down his spell casting ability.
And with the Rogue/ Sniper, you increase your sneak range by 10ft every 3 level.
Playing a 10th level inquisitor now using the repeating crossbow and having a blast. I took all the standard archery feats and when I get spun up with judgments and buff spells it's a crap load of fun and I can hit pretty hard.
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Assuming you actually can. You are reading an action, between than and the casting of hte spell there can happen a lot of thing. The passive actitude is inferior most of the time. The stone giatn wizard could just draw his great sword and charge you, you will not only recive damage but you will lost your turn. And if another party member kill the wizard first you lost your turn.
Lower, yes. But it's a standard, so he can move and ready action. For the time whent the archer cannot kill the Stone Giant Wizard 10 in one round, it's better to shut down his spell casting ability.
And with the Rogue/ Sniper, you increase your sneak range by 10ft every 3 level.
You set the conditions of your ready action.
You can ready VS spellcasting or movement. If they cast, you attack. If they move you attack.You don't even have to make the ready dependent on the enemy. You can ready an attack based on your team mates shouting "Fire" as a free action.
As Imbicatus said. You ready ''if he move'', if he charge you or cast a spell with gestual, you shoot. And if your partner kill it before... well, too bad but the goal in Pathfinder is to win the encounter, not to have the last blow.
And I found it better in some situation:
A: ready action, if he move, a shot.
B: Big boss prepare to cast.... interrupt, I shoot! 18 damages, he mus succed a DD 30 ish and fail.
A: Am Archer. Am shooting.
B: The caster survive with 30 pv. Cast dominate persone on archer, DD 20, you have a will of +4. You failed.
A: Am Archer. Am shootin my cleric.
Just pray to not be in face of some monk tribe with Snatch Arrow... My Gunslinger player didn't like it either to see some monke snatch his only bullet per round.
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The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
The Ready an action states specify the action you will take and the conditions (plural) under which you will take it. There is nothing in the rules that says you can ready against only one condition.
But if they realize you're readying based on movement, they can move, take the hit and then cast with no risk of disruption.
Yeah, there a little bit of strategy. You can ask your caster to tell you when to shoot as a free to interrupt the other caster, or simply say ''if he cast''. Not all caster are Stone Giant who may come in close quarter combat.
Edit: Moving is casting. The guy will do some movement with his arms to cast, so he move. I am not talking about the move action here.
The paladin is not really a viable candidate for a crossbow either due to loss of manyshot damage from smite. I mean a paladin COULD do it, but he's losing a free attack at his highest BAB on every smite, and that hurts.
I'd say you would need to build an eldritch knight and take advantage of the swift cast on crit mechanic via the crossbows wider threat range. This would cause the EK to need to pump his int relatively high for saves though.
Doing 1/3 the top damage, using more feats is a trap, plain and simple. I have no idea why pazio hates all ranged but bows, but alas IMO they do. To focus on readied shooting is a trap as well IMO. Waiting to see if anything does what you want gives your opponent the advantage, and if 0 spell casters are around you are even more behind the curve.
I appreciate everyone trying to defend the use of a crossbow but they are plain and simple so far behind a bow it is not funny.
YMMV
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Doing ranged with anything but a bow is a trap. If your GM is nice try and talk him into reskining a bow to look like a xbow, if not I would avoid it personally.
This is not helping.
Where do you see 1/3 of the damage? For a level 12 Crossbowman/Sniper:
3d10+3(dex)+ 2d6(sneak)+2(weapon expertise)+4 deadly aim +1 crossbow expert, for an average of 31 damage per rounds, without any magic weapon. If you add ''Use magic device, wand of Gravity Bow) and a +1 fire crossbow, you get 6d8+1d6+2d6+7, so 44 each hit in everage (gravity bow works bether on 1d10 weapon, improving the average damage per 3,5 instead of 2,5). The bowman will get at this level 5 arrows, but with less Attack Bonus for the two last one (the last one is more a lucky hit than an usefull attack). It will do more damage, but 3 times? I don't think so.
The bottom line is that you can do it, but it's just not as good as a bow. It's like showing up to a gun fight but you brought a gun that jams. You'll be able to participate, but you'll always wonder if the extra shots you were missing out on (via manyshot) could have saved your life.
I think the inquisitor is fine, you'll be able to participate more fully in the campaign that way (because skill points make characters more fun IMO). You will be working for the feats for a very long time.
I agree with this. Even if there are casters around, at these levels, it's not unreasonable for a wizard to keep a quickened wind wall prepared and drop it as a swift action if he sees anyone readying a ranged weapon. So keeping them back just to disrupt a caster is not a valid strategy.
If the caster cast a Quickened Wind Wall, the Archer is as screwd as the crossbowman. And, does a queickened spell counter a ready action? Not sure about that...