Question regarding 'Sleeves of Many Garments'

[Martain]

Is the item limited to only one article of clothing or can it take care of multiple?

Example:

Soldier's uniform -> Hot weather outfit or Fire-resistant boots

versus

Soldier's uniform -> Hot weather outfit + Fire-resistant boots

If it's the first then are you suddenly going speedo if you change your Explorer's outfit to a pair of skis or would such only change the shoes of your Explorer's outfit to ski's without actually changing the rest of our outfit?

If it's the second (which I hope), then does that mean by slipping on these items I can now be dressed in a noble's outfit with accompaning accessorizing jewelry, wig, perfume and sporting mask and fully dressed to blend in with the elite?

Or that I could be wearing a pickpocket's outfit optomized with a pocketed scarf and false jewelry?

What's the scope of it's creation capacity? Is it limited only to actual clothing or does it work to change hats/shoes/belts/scarves/sashes?

Is there a clothing sublist of what this item can change your existing clothing to or is it the entire clothing category?

Could use some help here.

[Dylos]

This isn't a PFS specific question, so prepare for it to be moved.

The way I understand the item, it only changes into outfits, so no fire-resistant boots, no wigs, no skiis, etc.

Frankly, the sleeves only cost 200 gp, they aren't going to replace everything.

[Sior]

I agree with Dylos. It specifically states that it can change into sets of clothing. Also, as it is illusion, it cannot function as hot/cold weather outfit though it looks like it. It does not actually change what you are wearing.

Will also note that it calls out changing the appearance of garments. I have ruled in the past (and will continue to do so) that it will not change the appearance of your armour. So no fighter in full plate but it looks like he's in a traveler's outfit. Unless he's wearing a traveler's outfit over it, which likely doesn't aid much in being inconspicuous.

[blackbloodtroll]

The Sleeves of Many Garments does not produce "illusionary" sets of clothing.

[andreww]

Pretty much what BBT says. They become a normal set of clothing. While the crafting condition is based on disguise self the wording of the item is clear that it transforms your current set of clothing into any other non magical set. They are particularly good for an emergency swarmsuit.

[Andrew Christian]

The swarmsuit is not listed as clothing so that would be a no go.

I would however let you gain the bonuses of hot/cold weather outfits.

[andreww]

Quote:

These heavy and overlapping layers of clothing, coupled with a wide hat

It is pretty clearly clothing.

[Andrew Christian]

andreww wrote:

Quote:

These heavy and overlapping layers of clothing, coupled with a wide hat

It is pretty clearly clothing.

Its listed under adventuring gear, not clothing. There has to be a limit for a 200gp item. My limit is that I define clothing as items that show up in the clothing chart.

[Tamec]

Andrew Christian wrote:

The swarmsuit is not listed as clothing so that would be a no go.

I would however let you gain the bonuses of hot/cold weather outfits.

I'd go with Andrew on this as all the outfits are under "Clothing" in the CRB while the Swarm suit is under adventuring gear in the APG. Also, having worn one of those IRL, it, typically, goes on over your clothes.

Edit: when I say Andrew I mean Andrew Christian since there are a couple of Andrews talking here :-)

[Paz]

andreww wrote:

It is pretty clearly clothing.

If it was, then it would be on this table, rather than this table.

[Nefreet]

You also still have to be wearing jewelry to gain any benefit if your Sleeves transform into a Noble's outfit.

[maouse]

Do the bees know its just an illusion?

[Sitri]

Andrew Christian wrote:

andreww wrote:

Quote:

These heavy and overlapping layers of clothing, coupled with a wide hat

It is pretty clearly clothing.

Its listed under adventuring gear, not clothing. There has to be a limit for a 200gp item. My limit is that I define clothing as items that show up in the clothing chart.

It actually says in the description that it is the exact word you are claiming it isn't. I think you would be on firmer ground to claim a person running through caltrops wearing boots of speed really isn't wearing footwear.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, we are trying to saying it produces real sets of clothing, but gain no benefit from them, like normal clothing?

We are also saying, that a set of clothing, is only considered a set of clothing, if it is listed in a very specific location in the book?

I am following so far?

[The Great Rinaldo!]

I have always interpreted the item as changing the appearance of the clothing. It wasn't until recently when someone tried using them to make a cold-weather outfit that I realized anyone thought otherwise.

I think Andrew Christian's interpretation is the best: if it appears on a table under "clothing", you can get the listed mechanical benefits. Otherwise, all you get is whatever the appearance would gain you (such as a bonus on disguise/bluff based on looking a certain part, or being able to blend in to a crowd more effectively).

[RAuer2]

The item says "...transform her current garments into any other non-magical set of clothing."

I agree that a 200 gp magic item should have a reasonable limit. However, I am not sure that restricting the definition of "clothing" to what appears on the Clothing chart leads to reasonable results.

As an example:

The "swarmsuit" listed on the Adventuring Gear chart has a cost of 20 gold.
The "royal outfit" listed on the Clothing chart has a cost of 200 gold.
Both items descriptions specify that each item is made of "clothes" or "clothing."

For me, as a player or GM, it does not seem reasonable that a magic item that can transform "into any non-magical set of clothing" can become a 200 gp item made of "clothes" and cannot become a 20 gp item made of "clothing."

[Katisha]

wow... I just had a thought.

Can I use my "sleeves" to change my garments into ... no garments? or into just one garment like a hat or a pair of shoes?

along with my Mistmail, this would mean I can go from Adventuring outfit to Working outfit in two command words!

[blahpers]

I turn the sleeves into a world-class crafted 5,000 gp ceremonial royal gown of woven mithril and drider silk, then sell the thing and buy more sleeves.

/trollface

Edit: Yeah, I know, it doesn't work that way.

[Sitri]

I don't think you can change them with command words. Perhaps that is what some of the "oh no players can't buy efficient gear" crowd fail to consider as well. You only choose what the sleeves do when you put them on. So you are probably looking at a full round or two standard actions in combat (with free hands) to get your sleeves to give you some DR from the swarms. I don't know about how most of your combats go, but most of the swarm combats I have seen only last 2-4 rounds. The only reason I would choose to do this instead of dealing damage to them is if I happen to be playing a character that is otherwise useless against them.

EDIT @ Blaphers: How do you think your customer will react when you take the sleeves off to give them to them and they turn back into sleeves?

[blackbloodtroll]

This idea, that even though you transform into a Cold Weather Uniform, it somehow manages to not keep you warm, seems silly.

This item doesn't give you any "bluff/disguise" bonus.

It just gives you the normal bonus, that a set of clothes does.

So, whether it is a Cold Weather Outfit, Shinobi Shōzoku, or Swarmsuit, it will give you the relevant bonus, normally given.

This "200gp, and it does absolutely nothing" approach seems way over the top, and the RAW doesn't suggest that's how it works.

[Gregory Connolly]

How do they ever sell Royal Outfits when these things cost 200 gold?

[Dave Justus]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

How do they ever sell Royal Outfits when these things cost 200 gold?

Ask Prada

[blackbloodtroll]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

How do they ever sell Royal Outfits when these things cost 200 gold?

Well...

Core Rulebook wrote:

Outfit, Royal

This is just the clothing, not the royal scepter, crown, ring, and other accoutrements. Royal clothes are ostentatious, with gems, gold, silk, and fur in abundance.

So, you will be missing all the matching accoutrements.

[Mojorat]

Probably for the same reason no one wears cubic zirconium diamonds to a fancy ball if they can afford the real thing. Status is everything.

[pauljathome]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This "200gp, and it does absolutely nothing" approach seems way over the top,

You're very wrong. 200 GP is an insanely low price even if the sleeves don't even mimic cold weather gear.

1 round to appear to be a member of the town guard. One round to be a beggar or a middle class shopkeeper. One round to be ready to mix with the nobles OR the peasants. Maybe 2 or 3 rounds if you include putting on/off jewelry and making a quick disguise check.

Its very unclear what they do. The description says they transform but the spell used is disguise self. With no bonus to disguise.

I expect lots of variation in PFS and I still buy them on all appropriate characters without a seconds hesitation.

[Sitri]

Quite the contrary, it states very clearly what it does. There is just a population of people who think that if an item cost less than they think it should then it is their job as GMs it instill table variation and nerf items for the session.

[blackbloodtroll]

Often, the prerequisite spells for crafting magic items make absolutely no sense.

What a magic item does, and the prerequisites spells for crafting them, often have nothing really related to each other.

Also, just because one thinks an item is underpriced, doesn't mean it function as written.

[KahnyaGnorc]

pauljathome wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This "200gp, and it does absolutely nothing" approach seems way over the top,

You're very wrong. 200 GP is an insanely low price even if the sleeves don't even mimic cold weather gear.

1 round to appear to be a member of the town guard. One round to be a beggar or a middle class shopkeeper. One round to be ready to mix with the nobles OR the peasants. Maybe 2 or 3 rounds if you include putting on/off jewelry and making a quick disguise check.

Its very unclear what they do. The description says they transform but the spell used is disguise self. With no bonus to disguise.

I expect lots of variation in PFS and I still buy them on all appropriate characters without a seconds hesitation.

I'd give you maybe a +2 or so bonus to Disguise and Bluff checks to do it, but you'd still have to make those checks.

[Sitri]

Whatever happened to "specific trumps general?" An item's personal text is obviously more specific than a quick reference table for lots of gear that doesn't duplicate entries in other similar tables regardless of potential overlap.

[EvilMinion]

the fact that the sleeves use Disguise Self in the construction process is not really relevant...

But the fact that the sleeves themselves give off a faint illusion aura... sort of implies the change is illusory does it not?

[Sitri]

A soulspeaker head gives off a faint illusion aura. I wouldn't say that it isn't really opening its eyes or speaking a message. The text says these things happen. Had they chose to use speak with dead instead of magic mouth (which I would think more appropriate considering the flavor and descriptions of why the mechanics work) then it would probably glow necromancy instead.

[deuxhero]

I've long held the item is badly written. All the language indicates a physical change (it uses the words transform and form without something like "appears to", the non-magical requirement is a standard property of any effect that physically changes something but makes no sense as an illusion), but the aura and spell needed is illusion.

I don't particularly care which way it's ruled, but it's something that should have been fixed long ago.

[Lost In Limbo]

Likely the reason the sleeves give off an faint aura of illusion is simply because the spell used to make it is from the illusion school. If the spell used was transmutation instead (which seems to fit the actual description of the item's effects) then it would give off an aura of transmutation.

[Sitri]

Like the skull I mentioned, it creates a net effect similar to an illusion spell so they opted to go with that spell in the creation without giving a lot of concern to why it works. Since I am sure they write the item and then decide what spell is similar to what makes it, not pick a spell and decide what magic item could I create with this, I would follow the description instead of the crafting reqs. If you are wanting to use crafting reqs to criticize/change how items work, you can create a very large (and very subjective) list.

[pauljathome]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

1 round to appear to be a member of the town guard.

I'd give you maybe a +2 or so bonus to Disguise and Bluff checks to do it, but you'd still have to make those checks.

Sure. But you'd almost certainly let me MAKE that check. Whereas most GMs would NOT allow me to make a disguise check to appear as a member of the town guard in a single round. Or would apply a horrific penalty like -20 or so (not objecting to that, mind. Its what I'd do).

The characters who would use that tactic have a high enough disguise skill that I don`t really care if I get a small bonus or penalty. I just need to be allowed to make the roll in a short time.

[BigNorseWolf]

"The pictures of all members of the town guard will be posted in the break room. Town guard members will be encouraged to socialize and get to know one another through trust exercises, fishing trips, and weekly BBQ cookouts..."

[blackbloodtroll]

This does not create an illusion effect.

It does not provide a bonus to disguise.

It creates outfits of clothing, that function, like said of outfits.

You want disguise?

Cap of Human Guise is 800gp.

Unless, you believe it doesn't disguise you?

[Sitri]

But blackbloodtroll, it says it works like disguise self but it doesn't repeat that disguising you includes your clothes or actually giving a bonus to disguise checks. Plus this item only cost 800 gold! We have to find some way to make it less useful for that price. At my table this item will only make you look like a small human, halfling, or gnome, and only if you are trying to look like a shopkeeper, blacksmith, or peasant; your normal clothes won't appear to fit anymore if you are medium. And no aasimars or tieflings using this item! Charm person is ok for them because not being humanoid is BS, but disguise self can't make them appear humanoid when they really aren't.

/sarcasm

[EvilPaladin]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This "200gp, and it does absolutely nothing" approach seems way over the top,

You're very wrong. 200 GP is an insanely low price even if the sleeves don't even mimic cold weather gear.

1 round to appear to be a member of the town guard. One round to be a beggar or a middle class shopkeeper. One round to be ready to mix with the nobles OR the peasants. Maybe 2 or 3 rounds if you include putting on/off jewelry and making a quick disguise check.

Its very unclear what they do. The description says they transform but the spell used is disguise self. With no bonus to disguise.

I expect lots of variation in PFS and I still buy them on all appropriate characters without a seconds hesitation.

I'd give you maybe a +2 or so bonus to Disguise and Bluff checks to do it, but you'd still have to make those checks.

While I agree with this ruling, keep in mind that you are paying 2x the amount it normally takes for you to get a +2 bonus on Disguise and Bluff checks [The cost for 2 masterwork tools, one for bluff and one for disguise]. I'd probably give it that and then for the extra 100gp I'd let it work for stuff like Swarmsuits and Cold-Weather Gear and such at random. After all, the only clothing that will apply in combat that I can find is the Swarmsuit, and that will take you a full round to get the sleeves off and on, so the swarm can take care of the rest of the party while you are changing. YMMV.

[blackbloodtroll]

Sitri wrote:

But blackbloodtroll, it says it works like disguise self but it doesn't repeat that disguising you includes your clothes or actually giving a bonus to disguise checks. Plus this item only cost 800 gold! We have to find some way to make it less useful for that price. At my table this item will only make you look like a small human, halfling, or gnome, and only if you are trying to look like a shopkeeper, blacksmith, or peasant; your normal clothes won't appear to fit anymore if you are medium. And no aasimars or tieflings using this item! Charm person is ok for them because not being humanoid is BS, but disguise self can't make them appear humanoid when they really aren't.

/sarcasm

Neat.

By your previous price>raw ruling, this Cap of Disguise should only be able to make one look like themselves, with no variation, and no bonuses.

Because, Price trumps RAW, am I right?

[Timothy Ferdinand]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, we are trying to saying it produces real sets of clothing, but gain no benefit from them, like normal clothing?

We are also saying, that a set of clothing, is only considered a set of clothing, if it is listed in a very specific location in the book?

I am following so far?

Sleeves of many garments "transform THE APPEARANCE of her current garments", they do not actually change one set of clothing into a different set of clothing, they only change THE APPEARANCE of your clothing - its an illusion - which is why they have a faint illusion aura and the spell to create them is "disguise self" (an illusion spell). If they actually changed one set of clothing into another the text would read "transform her current garments". Hope that helps.

[Pink Dragon]

Timothy Ferdinand wrote:

Sleeves of many garments "transform THE APPEARANCE of her current garments", they do not actually change one set of clothing into a different set of clothing, they only change THE APPEARANCE of your clothing - its an illusion - which is why they have a faint illusion aura and the spell to create them is "disguise self" (an illusion spell). If they actually changed one set of clothing into another the text would read "transform her current garments". Hope that helps.

Illusion faq

How many threads are you going to necro on this topic?

[Christopk-K]

That discussion is three years old.

The item was completely changed during that time by a FAQ/Errata.

The quotes were correct back then.