I am hopefully going to be able to run a Pathfinder campaign using the Core Ruleset only, and I can't wait to try my hand at DM'ing, as I almost never do it in such a format. However one thing that bothers me is I do not have a encyclopedic knowledge of the game. So in Core, what are some things I should try to avoid using, or ban from use in general? I once saw a thread talking about Leadership, but other than that I'm not too sure.
I think that the issue with leadership is that it's better to give the party NPC followers through in-story means rather than have them take a feat for it, which is much less interesting roleplaying-wise.
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Leadership's a hassle, but there isn't much in the core rule book that can be abused by people who don't have strong knowledge of the game. I'm not one to try and ban anything but the most absurd abuses, though.
As a note, a lot of the tastiest stuff for casters in present in the core rule book, while martials have received most of their buffs in later books (most notably the Barbarian rage powers got a lot better). No need to go wide open with what's allowed but I'd recommend at least adding the Advanced Player's Guide.
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Wizard, Druid, and Cleric.
As a first time DM, I'd recommend not allowing the Summoner class as the whole Eidolon thing does take a long time to get your head around. Same thing with the Magus.
My recommendation for doing so is less about whether these classes are balanced and more for the book keeping required to streamline combat when it happens. If the DM doesn't fully understand the rules for those classes, combat can take a long time, which detracts from the fun of the game.
There's a few broken items from the Ultimate Equipment book, so if you're using that I'd recommend banning the Bracers of Falcon's Aim.
That's all I can come up with off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a ton more out there that I've forgotten...
My advice is to not outright ban anything. Make sure you know what character concepts your players want to play. This way if they want to play a tripping character you can be sure to refresh the rules for combat maneuvers, or what ever your group decides.
I wouldn't ban leadership outright even. Let them know that with a feat like that they will have to work carefully with you. For instance if they make a versatile cohort that can fill missing roles in the party, when a player is absent then the group would be able to continue as if the player was there. When all the players are there, maybe the cohort has his own side mission.
If I could I'd force all my players to take leadership...
Crafting is something you may want to carefully regulate. It's pretty unbalance between martial vs caster and can quickly get out of hand. But, if they want to utilize something like this let players who do not wish to utilize it play with other downtime rules.
As a first time DM, I'd recommend not allowing the Summoner class as the whole Eidolon thing does take a long time to get your head around. Same thing with the Magus.
My recommendation for doing so is less about whether these classes are balanced and more for the book keeping required to streamline combat when it happens. If the DM doesn't fully understand the rules for those classes, combat can take a long time, which detracts from the fun of the game.There's a few broken items from the Ultimate Equipment book, so if you're using that I'd recommend banning the Bracers of Falcon's Aim.
That's all I can come up with off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a ton more out there that I've forgotten...
He said 'core', which I assume means the CRB classes only. No worries there.
I think everything in core is A-ok. Avoid expanding unto advanced, ultimate, mythic and paizo peripheral/ 3pp if you're concerned with over powered options.
He said 'core', which I assume means the CRB classes only. No worries there.
I read core as the 4 core hardback books. I guess it could be just the core rulebook.
Everything but commoner... :P
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I think everything in core is A-ok. Avoid expanding unto advanced, ultimate, mythic and paizo peripheral/ 3pp if you're concerned with over powered options.
Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced.
So if I understand, I should be fine unless we come across something that must be addressed? Sounds good. Also I would like a explanation on Caster OP? I'm just guessing because of the later level abillities for them?
Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced.
Are you saying sorcerer is balanced? Just curious.
If you are worried about 'brain strain', possibly think about banning Prestige classes. It takes a while to get into them, but if people complain just let them know that you want to center around the main classes this time around and then you can expand things once you have you ready.
Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced.Are you saying sorcerer is balanced? Just curious.
Well, anything that casts spells has questionable balance, but the sorcerer still chimes in a rank below those three monstrosities.
So if I understand, I should be fine unless we come across something that must be addressed? Sounds good. Also I would like a explanation on Caster OP? I'm just guessing because of the later level abillities for them?
If you start at level 1 then you should not have problem with any class in a long time(except perhapts monks, who a can be a trap for the first timer).
Level 7-9 spells and a semi clever player can trivualize encounters if you aren't prepared. Sometimes even if you ARE prepared.
CRB, APG, Ult Combat, and Ultimate Magic should be enough for everyone to be happy. From their ask players to ask for permission for anything else.
Personally I like Inner Sea Gods as it has some super cool items, monsters, and class opions.
So if I understand, I should be fine unless we come across something that must be addressed? Sounds good. Also I would like a explanation on Caster OP? I'm just guessing because of the later level abillities for them?
Yes, but not just the later abilities. Sleep is an early spell that might was well be a save or die.
Later on save or suck/die spells fill their spell books. They aren't "fun" according to my playgroup so they don't get out of hand for us and casters are fair otherwise.
Also teleport spells kind of negate a lot of the game. Magical safe houses make camping irrelevant. Flying is difficult to counter without flying in response. the list goes on.
There is no real balance in this game. Trying to ban things to fix this doesn't help in my opinion. The power gamers/ min maxers will find the best loopholes available.
CRB, APG, Ult Combat, and Ultimate Magic should be enough for everyone to be happy. From their ask players to ask for permission for anything else.
Personally I like Inner Sea Gods as it has some super cool items, monsters, and class opions.
Yeah, those are the 4 I think of when someone says core. Some have alternate rules, which aren't typically used (and need to be specified if they will be used no matter what books you are using). Inner sea gods, race guide are more flavor books with some cool options added in.
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So if I understand, I should be fine unless we come across something that must be addressed? Sounds good. Also I would like a explanation on Caster OP? I'm just guessing because of the later level abillities for them?
Don't let caster OP worry you. There are tons and tons and tons of threads across the net you can read on the subject. Though I urge you to grab the reins and find out for yourself. In my experience the average and/or casual gamer doesn't have a tenth of the problems that are posted about daily. I cant guarantee you wont hit any bumps in the road but I can say 3E/PF is a load of fun. Good luck!
Leadership is the big one. Especially if you've got 4+ people, you don't need or want it.
Most people don't see it, because it's in the cursed items section of the rulebook, but the Dust of Sneezing and Choking is blatantly broken. If someone brings it up, you can shoot it down immediately.
The code idea is great, but limiting it to paladins is not the way I would go. Every character should have a code.
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Don't ban anything out of the gate. Different groups play differently and want/like/dislike different things. You should focus on learning your group before you worry about what someone who's not in your group thinks is broken.
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Wizard, Druid, and Cleric.
Or the opposite - ban Fighter, Rogue and Monk.
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I am hopefully going to be able to run a Pathfinder campaign using the Core Ruleset only, and I can't wait to try my hand at DM'ing, as I almost never do it in such a format. However one thing that bothers me is I do not have a encyclopedic knowledge of the game. So in Core, what are some things I should try to avoid using, or ban from use in general? I once saw a thread talking about Leadership, but other than that I'm not too sure.
Nothing at all. Every group is different. Play the game and adjust as you see fit.
The code idea is great, but limiting it to paladins is not the way I would go. Every character should have a code.
While a lot of classes should have codes only the paladin and cavaliers lose class abilities if the violate them. With paladins regaining those class abilities can be a real pain and often take time and money. Cavaliers only temporarily lose their class abilities. Having the paladin’s player define and writing down the code is the best advice for any new GM with a paladin player.
I would say probably less than half the characters will have any kind of formal code. Mostly the lawful types will have codes. The chaotic ones tend to make things up as they go along, which is perfectly acceptable.
It would likely be more vague for a chaotic character and may be more guidelines than actual rules, but it's still likely there. Also most good characters are going to have a code. A druid has a pretty important code as well.
A code is part of talking to a player about how their character works. Talking to your players is always key. If you need to learn a rule about how something works to help your players "fit" their characters into your campaign, learn the rule.
Also don't be afraid to bend/break rules to get things to work for your players.
I would talk over with your players what sort of game you want to play. This should btech enough. If your new or your players are new set th summoner aside for another time. Its confusing and t easy to. Do wrong.
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There's no need to ban anything. Some choices in core are stronger than others, but if you ban the most powerful choices, that just means the next most powerful choices take their place.
Instead, when learning the game, start with the core book only, and start at level 1. Don't let your players talk you into starting at a higher level, not for the first game. It's easier to learn the game if you go in at the ground floor, as a GM too. As characters level up they gain more options.
Read the following chapters:
1 Getting Started - read once
2 Races - read once
3 Classes - read once, and re-read the Druid and Wizard after you've read chapter 9 (Magic). If you understand those you also understand the other casting classes.
4 Skills - read twice; it helps a GM a lot to be familiar with what skills exist, what they can do and how hard it is to use them.
5 Feats - read once; this is really more important to players than GMs.
6 Equipment - read once, pay attention to Light/One-Handed/Two-Handed weapons and Ammunition, as well as the effects of armor on spellcasting and movement.
7 Read once, especially movement
8 Combat - this is the big one. Read this one three times, make notes, see if you understand the examples. Understanding this chapter well does more to keep the game moving and fun than all the others together.
9 Magic - read this chapter once or twice, paying attention to spell preparation and Concentration
10 Spells - start out by reading the level 1-2 spells, and keep reading the spells at least one level higher than what the party can cast. (This chapter is huge. It's easier to just focus on the stuff you need immediately.)
11 Prestige Classes - ignore until level 4-6. This is really not important for the normal game.
12 Gamemastering - read once.
13 Environment - read once, take notes; make sure you can find stuff again when you need it. This chapter has good stuff that a lot of people forget about.
14 Creating NPCs - optional, read once.
15 Magic Items - read this in conjunction with the Bestiary to understand how to hand out treasure after encounters.
Don't worry about item creation at first; at level 1 only scrolls are possible. At level 3 Wondrous Items come online. By then you need to make up your mind if you want to allow item creation during your first campaign. Don't be afraid to ban it; item creation is one of the most complicated and misunderstood subsystems, and has big potential to skew the balance. When you allow item creation (other than simple stuff like scrolls, wands and potions), you'll need to do some research here on the forum, because almost nobody gets it right merely by reading the book. You'll probably have to dig through old topics on the forum to find explanations. Sorry about that.
Regarding casters and "OP": at level 1-5, they're really not. They're powerful but so is almost everyone else, in various ways. As Chapter 12 explains however, the balance between classes is based on the idea that you have more than one fight per day during an adventure. So casters, who have only limited powers per day, can't afford to use them all during one fight. If you have fewer fights per day, the casters can blow more spells per fight, and they'll be more powerful.
Color Spray and Sleep are often given as "OP" spells. They're not - CS has a tricky area of effect, and Sleep has a long casting time. They're pretty devastating when you pull them off however. They're especially powerful against monsters like Orcs, who are at level 1 hard enemies for martial classes to fight, but easy to target with mind-affecting spells. That's intentional; that's the wizard's moment to shine. Most of the time the fighter will be doing a lot more in combat than the wizard. All in all, everyone needs everyone else at level 1.
Regarding Leadership: if you start at level 1, it'll be a while before people can take this (level 7), so don't worry about it yet. Just tell your players in advance that it's not guaranteed you'll allow it.
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First and foremost, remember that this is a cooperative game between you and your players in order to tell a story. If it ever becomes a game of you vs the players, you need to take a step back and reevaluate what lead you there.
Next you should sit down with all your players before even a single character is built or dungeon designed and discuss with them all what kind of story all of you want to participate in - both the game they want to play and the game you want to run. The greatest and most common mistake I've seen in campaings in any system is players and GMs not being on the same page before pencil first touches paper.
Don't worry that you'll be giving plot and secrets away. It's better to let your players know the type of story you want to run early and make sure they want to play rather than find out weeks or months in that the tale you carefully and lovingly crafted doesn't interest them or irritates them. Or that the character they put as much time and care into drives you insane.
As in any relationship, clear communication is key. Don't sweat banning things. First find out what you and your players would all like to play and why. Then compromise to find a happy medium.
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Dont look to often into PF messageboards.They can be really helpful if you have a question but dont read threads with 20+ posts. They are full of rule lawyers, min-maxer , munchkins, fault-finder and bullheads.
Your players should not got to the boards too. They will find a lot of guides, builds, min-max advices etc. that ruin your game (if not all players enjoy this kind of gaming).
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.Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced.
This is your opinion. Not mine.
But to the OP, there will be some classes that do better at lower levels and some that are better at higher. Don't be fooled into thinkng that cleric, Druid,and wizard are unbalanced.
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Dont look to often into PF messageboards.They can be really helpful if you have a question but dont read threads with 20+ posts. They are full of rule lawyers, min-maxer , munchkins, fault-finder and bullheads.
I think that's a gross generalization. There are certainly such people on the forums, but the attitude is far from universal, nor universally as bad as you seem to be implying.
Your players should not got to the boards too. They will find a lot of guides, builds, min-max advices etc. that ruin your game (if not all players enjoy this kind of gaming).
This is only true if you and your players are the kind to blindly follow random advice from strangers on the internet.
First: there is not really anything that you need to ban from the Core. Sure, Prestige can be overpowered, but it is really ''dm dependant'' and it's easy to limit (like, I gave a Dryad to one of my player... She was usefull for craft wood and for watching is house, but not anywhere else...)
Second: what is your world? The main problem is not with unbalanced class/feat/spell, it's with the lore. The rest will not be problematic for the vast majority of game, and many class problem will appear only if your group start to ''Min Max'', like some people on this forum do.
Depending on your comfort level, I don't think you really need to ban anything. If people are asking for options outside the core rulebook, make sure they provide you with the source and information about that option, so you can double check their stats. Also if you are on the fence about the use of something, make sure before the game even starts that if a particular class/set of options from x book is too powerful, you reserve the right to ask them to select something else.
If your group is new to Pathfinder, I also advise a higher point buy to get around any "oops" moments in combats, from either side of the table
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I think everything in core is A-ok. Avoid expanding unto advanced, ultimate, mythic and paizo peripheral/ 3pp if you're concerned with over powered options.Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced.
You should ban the martial/caster debate and anyone who perpetuates while at the game table.
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Do not allow players to controll and/or create undead This was less bad before the bloodmoney spell and/or blood skeletons that frequently reanimate, but consider yourself warned. A spell or feat that can be used and has an effect that lasts days at a time is extremly strong. The action economy the controller/animator can get at twice his level in hit dice is crazy.