Concerning Pax in the Land Rush


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Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Maybe it's meant to show that they have never intended to "thumb their nose" at anyone, and they do feel that Golthotha is not truly part of Aeternum?

I don't think anyone is suggesting anyone believes Golgotha is a part of Aeternum.

Goblin Squad Member

I think Golgotha is only needed by them to extend a needed alignment reach of the Pax organization's members preferences. I suspect that many more PAX people are potentially to join us. Golgotha is to be LE, correct? And Callambea is LN? That suggests to me that many PAX members may have expressed interest in NE alignment. It presents a problem for potential NE characters for their established base to be LN.


Nihimon wrote:

And yet they did, until I spoke out in this thread against that after everything had supposedly already been "resolved". They've since removed those votes,

To clarify, they removed them because they received evidence from Ryan that they were not allowed. Evidence they accepted as clear, anyways.

The point being, they removed the votes. Nobody else is talking about the votes anymore. The only relevance the votes bear is whether they indicate that Pax Aeternum and Pax Golgotha are truly unified under a single banner.

Our Craven OP wrote:


While Goblinworks is at fault for not organizing or explaining the first Land Rush well, Golgotha joined Pax and gave them their votes. They decided to join Pax instead of going for their own settlement, I do not see them as being entitled to go for a settlement now. The Second Land Rush should not be treated as a second chance. They made their decision, they should stick with it.

I'm having trouble getting my head around all these loop-de-loops, but you seem to be saying that the fact that six votes were wrongly applied to Golgotha for a short period of time is proof that Golgotha has "made its choice" and no longer has the right to act independently of Aeternum.

Nihimon wrote:
I would add a significant question is also, what will it do to the game to have a clear example of a Guild blatantly violating the clearly expressed restrictions placed on them

An example that you and some others (and a silent population you feel could be the majority) is of a Guild blatantly violating the restrictions. A large number of people disagree.

Nihimon wrote:
being incredibly combative with anyone who tries to hold them accountable for that

In that they disagreed with you, yes. Most of the "incredibly combativeness" came from third parties.

Nihimon wrote:

, and only changing course when an official statement is made that the particular thing they're doing is wrong. "Following the rules" doesn't mean "doing everything you can to twist the rules to your own advantage until you're called out on it by Goblinworks".

If Pax is a Guild that promotes "following the rules", I would ask them to live up to that.

Keep in mind, Nihimon, that you are once again accusing every Pax member who has posted on this thread of being a liar. On this thread, the members of Pax have been repeatedly making statements to the effect of:

"We thought it meant this. We were wrong. We are sorry."

Goblin Squad Member

Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:

It seems to me you are attempting to do one of the following:

discredit what you consider a threat.
Force a wedge between Golgotha and Aeternum.

I have been incredibly clear about what I'm doing.

I'm trying to get Pax Gaming to follow the rules and adhere to the restrictions Ryan placed on us as winners of the first Land Rush.

It's not because I think there's any gain for me other than a community that adheres to the restrictions the devs place on us.

If Pax insists on breaking that taboo this early, I want the community to see that for what it is. Not because I hate Pax, and not because I expect to gain from it, but because I want it to be costly for groups to refuse to adhere to the restrictions the devs place on us.


Nihimon wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Maybe it's meant to show that they have never intended to "thumb their nose" at anyone, and they do feel that Golthotha is not truly part of Aeternum?
I don't think anyone is suggesting anyone believes Golgotha is a part of Aeternum.

The one time I spell 'em right... ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Lord Regent: Deacon Wulf wrote:

No one who voted for Aeternum voted for Golgotha in the second land rush. That is a blatant lie.

The votes removed were individuals who did not participate in the first land rush. There are no votes for Golgotha from members that had previously voted for Aeternum in the first land rush. Nor has there ever been.

I apologize, I misread Kobold Cleaver's question, thinking he was talking about members of Aeternum in general voting for Golgotha.

Goblin Squad Member

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T7V Avari wrote:
Sweet Jeezus I never thought a game could cause this much passion before it even starts. Goblinworks has got us by the GOBLINBALLS! LOL!

fixt


Oh, thanks, Kakafika. Now it makes sense. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The only relevance the votes bear is whether they indicate that Pax Aeternum and Pax Golgotha are truly unified under a single banner.

Then I would ask everyone to look again at the OP, where a "Staff Member" of Pax Gaming was instructing new recruits to Pax Aeternum to vote for Pax Golgotha as clear evidence that they are unified under a single banner.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
... you seem to be saying that the fact that six votes were wrongly applied to Golgotha for a short period of time is proof that Golgotha has "made its choice" and no longer has the right to act independently of Aeternum.

I am suggesting that the "independence from Aeternum" is irrelevant, and that neither Pax Golgotha nor Pax Aeternum are independent from Pax.


Nihimon wrote:


Then I would ask everyone to look again at the OP, where a "Staff Member" of Pax Gaming was instructing new recruits to Pax Aeternum to vote for Pax Golgotha as clear evidence that they are unified under a single banner.

And I will once again point to my opinion on that: If you thought it was okay with GW, you might have done something similar. It's not a matter of them being in the same group, it's a matter of them being friends and friends supporting each other. Who else would they suggest their members vote for? The Mooncalves?

Also, since I apparently wasn't clear: When I say "independent from Aeternum", I mean "independent from Pax". Let's not split hairs here and stay on topic. :P

CEO, Goblinworks

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I would say that at this point all the active posters have more than clearly aired their opinions.

If people who have not already posted in this thread would like to speak, I would like to hear them. If you've already said your piece, I'd ask that you now stop posting here and let's see what some other people have to say.

This thread is yo-yoing between being a well behaved dispute between community members about an important topic, and a toxic exchange of rhetoric. For those who have expressed your opinions, I thank you. It is now time to hear from new voices.

Goblin Squad Member

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Some have claimed that this matter is already resolved, suggesting there is no reason for anyone else to come forward to share their thoughts. As Ryan's most recent post indicates, the matter is clearly not yet resolved and may still end up being addressed by direct Goblinworks intervention regardless of what previous stance they may have taken.

My point in clarifying this is to encourage those who have stayed away from this post up to this point. The matter is not yet resolved and everyone's opinon really does still matter

If you have not already done so, please share your thoughts on the question that Ryan has defined, "Is Pax one guild or several?"

Goblin Squad Member

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It seems to me that this whole debate stemmed from the fact that Golgotha put 'PAX' in front of their settlement name on the land rush. Now, I have no knowledge on them joining the PAX gaming group or anything said on their forums like others obviously do.

I recall Golgotha being a separate guild before the second land rush started and assumed that they just put PAX in their name to show that they were going to be part of the same nation after the game started.
I saw a quote that cities could barter and try to win votes for this land rush, and I just figured that that is what Golgotha did with Aeternum... "Hey, we will be part of your nation and put PAX in our name if you send some of your people that can vote for us our way" or something to that effect.

Obviously I have not kept up to date on the forums here till this last week and I don't really pay attention to the political maneuverings that closely and that may be my downfall on this topic, among others..(I didn't even know about the Roseblood Accord until reading of its existence on this thread)

Therefore, in closing, I think Golgotha can keep the settlement in the land rush.

Goblin Squad Member

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(Okay, technically I've been heard before, but I'm not a strident voice on either side and I hope it's new thoughts.)

First, we're reading a lot into exactly what it will mean to "form" a settlement. I'm not sure in the long run that Group A having 500 people in one settlement that is "theirs" and 500 people in another settlement that isn't is functionally different from Group B having 500 in a settlement that is theirs and 500 in another settlement that behind the scenes is "theirs" and group C having 500 each in two settlements that aren't theirs.

Either the developers will find a way to ensure that those of us who aren't controlling nations are still able to have fun, or we'll stop giving them money. Being in control of a dozen settlements won't help anyone if they are master-of-a-vacuum. Additionally, running a nation will likely cease to be much fun unless you have someone to strive against.

(A bit of the next is a re-hash, but there's more)

By far the most of us just want to have fun, and unless settlement controllers start throwing their weight around in a way that makes it harder to have fun, we won't really care all that much who is "running" the settlements.

Yes, I'm sure many of us would like to have the opportunity to shape a settlement in the way we think best, and the presence of large groups is going to mess with that, regardless of which large/organized group it is. But for smaller groups to have a choice of 25 instead of a choice of 30 is hardly soul-crushing.

And if it is, too bad for us. Life isn't fair. As long as organized entities resist the urge to spoil our fun, we'll live with it and keep paying to be part of the world.

I bet the vast majority of us don't care if any or all of you end up with multiple settlements, as long as we can pass through those settlements without it wrecking our day.

I understand it must be frustrating to feel like someone else is doing something "wrong", but there is no cut-and-dried option here. There are various people in various groups who want to play in various ways, and some of them can't if they are forced to be part of something that reflects a part of them, but is in opposition to other important parts. There really are real, and understandable reasons behind those choices, and as disappointing as they might be, they are not as disappointing as watching the community crumble under a barrage of fireballs.

Goblin Squad Member

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It seems clear to me: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q434?Golgotha-Settlement-Charter#19 that Golgotha was born separately from Pax Gaming <--- which is not really a "Guild".

They are allied with Aeternum now and share a website. What Ally would not want space on that site if offered? Why is it wrong to plan ahead in the matter of nation states?

The Land Rush was poorly worked. There is no reason to destroy so much work because of solidarity in websites, prefixes, and alliance.

This is a case that is clearly strange, partly because things were not spelled out very well. Very important things.

They should not be considered in the class of "Mega Guilds" that are a concern. They are an asset to the community in their diversity. They were and actually are separate "guilds".

Goblin Squad Member

Stonebreaker wrote:

It seems to me that this whole debate stemmed from the fact that Golgotha put 'PAX' in front of their settlement name on the land rush. Now, I have no knowledge on them joining the PAX gaming group or anything said on their forums like others obviously do.

<snip>
Therefore, in closing, I think Golgotha can keep the settlement in the land rush.

I'm thinking along the same lines, but I would still recommend that they perhaps disband, reform it without "pax" in front, and then maybe perhaps add a note in their description that describes their affiliation/relation/whatever with the other Pax settlement, etc.

Can a Pax person please comment on this idea?

The Exchange

I have two questions?

1) Was Golgotha eligible to join the 1st land rush (The thread leads me to believe they choose not to join in the 1st land rush, so I would like clarification on this)?

2) If they where, why did they not join the 1st land rush?

Goblin Squad Member

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Aou wrote:
Stonebreaker wrote:

It seems to me that this whole debate stemmed from the fact that Golgotha put 'PAX' in front of their settlement name on the land rush. Now, I have no knowledge on them joining the PAX gaming group or anything said on their forums like others obviously do.

<snip>
Therefore, in closing, I think Golgotha can keep the settlement in the land rush.

I'm thinking along the same lines, but I would still recommend that they perhaps disband, reform it without "pax" in front, and then maybe perhaps add a note in their description that describes their affiliation/relation/whatever with the other Pax settlement, etc.

Can a Pax person please comment on this idea?

Not jumping in for any other reason than to answer this.

I can not speak for Golgotha, besides assuring you that I will bring it up to them.

Goblin Squad Member

Elladan Sindanarie wrote:

I have two questions?

1) Was Golgotha eligible to join the 1st land rush (The thread leads me to believe they choose not to join in the 1st land rush, so I would like clarification on this)?

2) If they where, why did they not join the 1st land rush?

The separate chartered companies that make up Golgotha did.

Goblin Squad Member

Apologies if this has already been stated but I don't think the issue is whether Golgotha was a separate guild before the GW site landrush. The issue is that now Golgotha is under the Pax umbrella, Pax has the ability to funnel membership for the purpose of landrush votes to Golgotha for anyone that did not vote Pax in the original landrush poll. The ability for GW to do their due diligence on this is limited to only cross checking people who voted on the original landrush poll and the new one. This would not include people who intend to join Pax Aetnerum, didn't vote in the initial landrush, and are instead funneling their votes to Golgotha in order to effectively help Pax win a second settlement.

Unfortunately, there is no viable way to enforce that should you vote for Golgotha in the landrush, you are stuck with them ingame for at least a significant period of time. In an ideal world, GW would be able to cross check the membership roster of Golgotha only with those who voted for it in the landrush. If Golgotha were to win the settlement by the strength of its core membership, more power to them.

But, until we can completely refute that there is any vote-funneling happening, I find it in the best interest of the community to not include them in the landrush.

Goblin Squad Member

dropping my Guild tag for this post to show its just my opinion

I agree with Golgotha staying in the landrush as it was an entity prior

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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I have been following this thread but deliberately stayed away as I felt my contribution would likely be misinterpreted, misused or would cause me to fall between the two feuding camps.

So lets start:
I have done quite some research over the last few days - see my post about the likely cut for getting a settlement - and as such Golgotha was unique in being so high up in the ranks - but having no root in LR1.
Digging deeper I found Golgatha as a proposed guild as far back as August 2013. Digging even deeper I found posts from May 2013 by Deacon Wulf from May 2013 where he declares that he has close to 20 followers.
There is even still a webpage with a charter for a settlement here dated from the 10th of may.
The internet leaves traces - so all this can be looked up by anyone else who spends the time to do so.

As such it is clear to me that Golgatha under Deacon Wulf started as a PAX indipendend entity.

As such it once did have 100% clear independent guild status
From there onwards it becomes more difficult - I haven't been here on these boards at the time and I also haven't looked at PAX boards. So this is more my impression how it happened - so I hope the following part isn't too wrong.

Golgatha and Pax became friends and allies. Golgatha was already a guild with a reasonable number before this happened - but it seemed it was in both interest to become closer.

Important here is also that whatever happened - this predates the rules for LR2. Things might have gone different if we all would have known half a year ago.

I borrow this from <Magistry> Toombstone
Being Friendly --> Being Allies --> Forming a Nation --> Being the same Guild

It is debatable where on this axis Pax Golgatha are - but to me - despite to have a PAX in front of them - they are still left of Being the same Guild. And they would have taken a lot of care staying left of that line if rules would have been known earlier. But I can understand why other people are of a different opinion.

This leads us to the 'vote rigging' accusation.
My snapshot this morning UK time listed the following
Guild or Settlement LR1 ~ 0526 ~ 0527 ~0528
The Empyrean Order 120 105 106 111
Pax Golgotha na 64 57 59
Pax Aeternum 79 53 56 59
The Seventh Veil 64 50 53 53

My interpretation of these numbers as data miner
TEO is at 88% of LR1 votes
PAX Aeternum is at 69% of LR1 votes without PAX Golgotha and at 139% with PAX Golgotha
T7V is at 76% of LR1 votes

Interesting are the next 3
Keepers of the Circle 36 48 48 49 117%
Ozem's Vigil 21 35 35 35 130%
Magistry 8 29 31 34 243%

To me it is hard to believe that Pax Golgotha is not benefiting from PAX Aeternum. A PAX Aeternum vote no longer counts while a PAX Golgotha vote will ensure that Golgotha will get first choice. As such bad feelings towards Golgotha are not necessarily baseless. 'Benefit' on the other hand doesn't necessarily mean against the rules - some of it is just the decision of individuals between two choices where one needs them more.
So I tried to quantify the benefit. I would estimate that the gain is in the region of 10 votes.
It is very difficult to say if something similar happens to possible voters for TEO and T7V. The number 10 my best guess for the net effect towards above maybe anything that is happening elsewhere.

So this leaves me to the following conclusions

Golgotha has it's roots clearly as an independent guild. It's close association ahead of LR2 leaves an unfortunate feeling behind - but there would be more injustice in my eyes to ban them from LR2 as to keep them.
The claim from Golgotha not to benefit from PAX Aeternum is disingenuous. But I'm personally happy enough that they removed any LR1 voters for PAX Aeternum from their rooster and that according to my estimate they still would be safely gaining a settlement in LR2 if they wouldn't have associated themselves with PAX. I do understand if other people see it differently. After all - I take some assumptions and others might take different ones leading to a different outcome.

With hindsight all parties could have done something different and we never would have been in this problem. But it also isn't distroying the game as I feel any non-justified benefit for Golgatha is minimal.
Could they be behind the KotC - maybe.

I just hope the Keepers of the Circle and Golgatha go for different places on the map. In this case all might just have been a storm in a teacup.

PEACE please on both sides - let us build up a great game. Passionate people are the key for a great game and I look forward to play with both parties.

All opinions voiced here are my personal ones and not of my Guild - Thod's Friends

The Exchange

why did Golgotha not join the 1st land rush?

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

I have been following this thread but deliberately stayed away as I felt my contribution would likely be misinterpreted, misused or would cause me to fall between the two feuding camps.

So lets start:
I have done quite some research over the last few days - see my post about the likely cut for getting a settlement - and as such Golgotha was unique in being so high up in the ranks - but having no root in LR1.
Digging deeper I found Golgatha as a proposed guild as far back as August 2013. Digging even deeper I found posts from May 2013 by Deacon Wulf from May 2013 where he declares that he has close to 20 followers.
There is even still a webpage with a charter for a settlement here dated from the 10th of may.
The internet leaves traces - so all this can be looked up by anyone else who spends the time to do so.

As such it is clear to me that Golgatha under Deacon Wulf started as a PAX indipendend entity.

As such it once did have 100% clear independent guild status
From there onwards it becomes more difficult - I haven't been here on these boards at the time and I also haven't looked at PAX boards. So this is more my impression how it happened - so I hope the following part isn't too wrong.

Golgatha and Pax became friends and allies. Golgatha was already a guild with a reasonable number before this happened - but it seemed it was in both interest to become closer.

Important here is also that whatever happened - this predates the rules for LR2. Things might have gone different if we all would have known half a year ago.

I borrow this from <Magistry> Toombstone
Being Friendly --> Being Allies --> Forming a Nation --> Being the same Guild

It is debatable where on this axis Pax Golgatha are - but to me - despite to have a PAX in front of them - they are still left of Being the same Guild. And they would have taken a lot of care staying left of that line if rules would have been known earlier. But I can understand...

I appreciate the support Thod, but a correction if I may. LR1 included OE accounts, so there are a lot of Aeternum members who can't vote for Aeternum in LR2 who voted in LR1 because they lack EE accounts. As an officer of Golgotha, I can say that Aeternum isn't funneling any votes to Golgotha now, we have removed all previous Aeternum votes from our roster.

Goblin Squad Member

Just adding a quick note:

To further expound on this, if I remember correctly, "Crowdforger Guild" buddies (all 6) were told NOT to vote in the original LR1 - their 6 votes were assumed. Whether all of the guilds in LR1 obeyed this or not, who knows.

In any event, this might also slightly skew your figures (by up to 6 in either direction), in addition to the EE vs OE problem.

Goblin Squad Member

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Xeen wrote:
T7V Avari wrote:
Xeen wrote:

It is not up to the community.

Roseblood is not very clearly separate entities. They may have started that way, but now they are in it for mutual benefit.

Separate websites, separate private forums, separate voting structures, separate meta game guilds. No common military, no common diplomacy, not even a promise to form in game nations.

I thought you guys had some lawyers in there, jeezus lawd you all SUCK as lawyers, just a bunch of rabid dogs go back to your cages!

The only thing in question here is that despite the fact that Nihimon is technically 100% correct, this thread offers AMPLE evidence that the COMMUNITY believes Pax Golgotha is a special case to the rules.

I personally, and have been asked to say this by several Roseblood Accord members, wish to see this thread ended. Not because Nihimon is wrong, he most certainly is in the right. But because Ryan Dancey himself has said that this community should police itself and in THIS CASE, the community has voted against the letter of the law and wishes Golgotha to remain in the Land Rush.

The only evidence is that T7V and some TEO members do not like it. I do not see a greater community here.

As for lawyers... You say you have all this separation in the foreground... but in the background I bet its all different. Are you going to tell me that if the UNC invades Brighthaven that the others will not rush to their aid?

Xeen, I think you are misrepresenting the situation with the Roseblood Accord. If another entity invades Great Britain will the United States come to thier aid? Almost certainly as both are members of NATO and have similar interests and complimentary world views. Does that mean that they are the same entity or the same nation? No.

Such it is with the Roseblood Accord. Each member is it's own seperate soveriegn entity with it's own top level government. The members may have certain Treaty obligations to each other and may consider each other in freindly terms because they have mutual interests and complimentary world views but each is it's own individual entity. The Treaty obligation is really not that much different then the sort of contract that the UNC might enter into with another entity....just that there is no fixed renumeration and no fixed contract period. As a member of TEO, I have no individual obligation to the Roseblood Accord. I only have an obligation to TEO and it's governing body. It's only through whatever Treaties TEO's governing body signs...whether to RA or anyone else that I inherit any obligations outside of TEO. At least that has always been my understanding.

I say that only to clear up the specific allegation that you made. I have no clue about PAX's internal structure....nor do I have any desire to.... nor would it in any way be appropriate for me to appoint myself as arbiter of such a matter. I have no problem with PAX doing with what it is doing. No one is voting more then ONCE in Land Rush...which would be my line in the sand. PAX isn't doing that. They've said they adjusted thier votes. Golgotha adjusted thier tags. They aren't running Fidelis in LandRush even though technicaly they could. I can't imagine why anyone would need to ask for more then that. If after all that it's still not kosher, then it'll have to be GW saying so, not any of us.

This said only as a private individual. This thread is way past it's shelf life now. The horse isn't just dead at this point, its a skeletal mount.

Goblin Squad Member

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Guys, we're getting distracted again and starting the same old discussions. Please do not let yourself get side-tracked with issues of what Golgotha did or why they did it. That way lies madness.

The question before us is NOT, "Do you think Golgotha should get a settlement?" I urge you all to please not try to answer that question.

Ryan has narrowed the focus of the issue to one defining question. If you have not yet answered that question in this thread, I encourage you to please do so. The question, within the parameters of Pathfinder Online, is, "Do you perceive Pax to be one guild or several guilds?"

The Exchange

GrumpyMel is right. I am moving on to something else more important.


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Thod wrote:
But I'm personally happy enough that they removed any LR1 voters for PAX Aeternum from their roster

No LR1 voters in Aeternum voted for anyone but Aeternum. The votes that were retracted were 5 votes that hadn't been used in the original Land Rush. We have addressed that situation and consider it resolved.

Just thought I'd clarify an error.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:


If people who have not already posted in this thread would like to speak, I would like to hear them.

In my opinion, Aeternum and Golgotha should both be allowed to continue in the landrush, and should each be eligible for their own settlement.

My perception is that they are two separate settlements that formed a nation before the game is ready to support nations.

I think goblinworks made some mistakes by running landrush 1 before the game was ready to support the entities they were asking potential players to create, and not making the distinction between settlement vs nation vs guild clearly defined in the early stages.

I think Pax Gaming made some mistakes by attempting to create a multi-settlement nation without waiting for goblinworks to properly define how they wanted nations to emerge. (and having everyone put PAX tags in their forum handles didn't help)

I don't think either party had malicious intentions, and that this is just one of the many bumps and confusions that is going to arise through the crowd-forging, minimum viable product route.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

GOL Cyneric Torrin, Aou

I've been taking non EE as well as the 6 extra votes into account.

There are different effects here:
Growth over time should have increased numbers of votes
Non EE votes in LR1 should decrease them
The 6 extra votes should increase it

That is why I added % of LR1 votes. PAX Aeternum is worth in this compared to TEO and T7V. But this is minor - so that's how I got the number of 10.

There is the alternative that you have relative more non EE voters in LR1 - difficult to know if or why. There is the alternative that TEO and T7V just did better in recruiting in between. That would remove the issue of benefit but you probably wouldn't like to hear this either.

I think not even PAX will be able to quantify all these influences. I tried to give a best estimate taking the best assumption I felt I could take.

But as I also said - in the bigger picture the effect seems minor and not worthwhile to cause such a rift.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
will be a strong signal to any other mega-Guilds that it is perfectly acceptable to have multiple entries in the Land Rush, or at least that it's something they need to do in order to avoid being at a disadvantage.

Do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that this will discourage mega-guilds from not doing this? Call me a skeptic, but I highly doubt that. If anything, if any of those ginormous guilds have been paying attention to this at all, they'll just create "shadow guilds" that, to all outward appearances, are not affiliated with them. Then they'll march merrily on their way to multiple settlements and none will be the wiser.

I hate to say this, because I like what I've seen from GW and I desperately want this game to work, but if something like this is not allowed, GW needs to step up and say so. I know it may go against the "spirit" of the competition, but by and large, most open-world PvP players are asshats and they will do whatever they can to gain an advantage. The "spirit" of a fair competition doesn't factor in for them.

Clear, concise rules need to be posted in advance of such things and swift justice dealt to offenders. Period. I realize that that's an easy thing to say and that it's difficult for a small company to turn away money from any potential customers, but that's a harsh reality.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
If people who have not already posted in this thread would like to speak, I would like to hear them.

1st) A discussion about fairness and honour can only serve to exchange opinions about the matter. It gets pointless as soon as you try to convince your discussion partner to adopt your point of view, because everybody has a different understanding of these concepts. I ask everybody engaging in this discussion to let it go. You made your point clear.

2nd) As Notmyrealname said: if you force Golgotha to withdraw, the members will take over a smaller settlement. Again, the discussion gets pointless because of the consequences.

3rd) From my very personal understanding of fairness: it would be unfair to force Golgotha to withdraw. People invested heavily in this endeavor. They should not loose what they have accomplished.

4th) IMO: Golgotha is Pax. Pax has numbers. As Being said: let them have a second settlement and be happy they split forces.

Just my 2 coppers.

Goblin Squad Member

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What I'm about to say comes from me as a player, not as a member of my settlement. I am not using my tag (FMS Quietus.) I will be using my tag from Paizo. One that I have used in the past and will use in the future to deal with the Pathfinder IP and everyone that it surrounds. This opinion that I have in no way represents anyone else, but me.

Thank you Ryan for asking others to chime in, as I did not feel welcome to give my opinion for concern of being swept up in this crap storm. I have no intention in bringing the settlement I'm a part of in it either.

I have through the past few weeks had the pleasure of meeting a lot of new people. I have met members from the Accord and I have met members from Pax as well. All of which I truly enjoyed and realize that they are all very excited about the game. While I haven't been as involved in PFO, many of the more dedicated have stuck with it the whole time. There is a lot investment and passion in it. Along with that there is money. Each and every person that has Early Enrollment put some amount of monetary investment into being a part of this thing.

I have a vision of getting into the game and being welcomed into a world. A world based on a IP that I absolutely love. With that world comes a strong political element. Now much like many things in life we see things that we may not condone or might not like, but we need to ask ourselves how far are we willing to go to police a situation. We must also ask ourselves what type of culture does that present. I respectfully disagree with the opinion that removing Golgotha from the leader board is the right thing to do.

Removing Golgotha from the land rush solves nothing. All it does is make sure that the larger guilds will sponsor or support the smaller ones from behind the scenes. If anything, Pax is guilty of being too transparent.

I support Golgotha, even though they are going for the location I wanted. See my group is one of the ones that misses out most in the end. This isn't some theoretical 31st guild. This is a real life scenario that Golgotha was kind enough to clue us in that they were going for the same settlement we wanted. They let us know so we would have ample time to reevaluate our next move. Even though there's a chance that we could benefit from their removal, I do not want that to happen. Because it is unfair. It's unfair to all those members that have banded together and spent real money to establish themselves as their own settlement, regardless of what meta group they happened to of joined in the interim.

Goblin Squad Member

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Here is my personal view of things. I read the entire thread and have not commented for or against anything. I am in the T7V so that may make people think I have a biased viewpoint but I'm not stating this as a member of T7V, just as a person wanting to play PFO.

Pax is a guild. It has many divisions to meet all it's members needs. PFO doesn't allow all members of extremely different alignments to work from the same settlement. This means they will have to have different settlements to meet all their members needs and depending on what a given player's needs are they are funneled to the correct division that will meet those needs. They are 1 guild though or they would not be Pax gaming and there would be no confusion.

At this point all members of Pax in any division just want to play the game and have a settlement to do it from if they can (and they can with the numbers they have). What I would propose is to release the restrictions on all LR1 winners (as far as allowing them to help other guilds/divisions win a settlement with new members, but not have those that already voted for them in LR1 re-vote) and take Pax out of the NAMES on the Landrush leader board. Then if any of the winners of LR1 who have members that haven't voted, want to help other guilds win a settlement (that they will be part of because of alignment needs and possibly make a new nation), they can use their votes for that and all divisions of Pax can participate (even Fidelis) as individual entities as far as needs of a settlement go, and so can the others. It is fair for all and will just breed more people playing the Landrush game, more people helping others to build the community and no one loses anything. Would GW accept this as a possible solution? All that has to happen is the PAX gets removed from the NAMES on the leader board and the confusion goes away. Then let all be equal and make devisions and play the game!

Goblin Squad Member

I think I posted here once before after the Pax Aeternum votes were removed from Golgotha. I was reading the GW blogs as my main source of PFO until about 2 weeks ago when I became much more involved reading these boards. My understanding is Golgotha grew from an independent and organic unit that was absorbed by Pax fairly recently and before the restrictions GW outlined for the Land Grab were laid out. My opinion has been along the lines of viewing them forming the start of a nation in game and they did that in a way that but them at odds with the intent of the land rush rules. I didn't like the way their leadership tried to hide behind GW not explicitly forbidding them but votes have been shifted. I am more of a spirit vs the letter of the law supporter anyway and I would say let them keep Golgotha in the the land rush, though maybe ask them to rebrand both settlements to lose the Pax. We don't live in a perfect world and I don't think anyone acted with malice here, lets acknowledge the specifics influencing this case then frown, wag our fingers at them for causing this trouble and move on.

Goblin Squad Member

Wish I could edit my previous post. I will now answer the correct question at hand:

To provide an opinion on whether Pax is considered one guild or separate entities, I would say it's complicated but am leaning toward the former choice.

From what I've seen, they are most definitely not another Roseblood Accord, as all their member CCs / settlements seem to operate under the same rules / bylaws. It has been said that each settlement is given some level of autonomy, but they are still under the overarching Pax umbrella. The Roseblood Accord, on the other hand, is an entity that only lives by the collaboration of its *separate* underlying guilds. It is a group of completely different guilds that have joined together on the premise of shared goals and ideals.

tl;dr it's complicated, but I would not consider Golgotha a separate entity while they're under the Pax umbrella

Goblin Squad Member

I represent my own thoughts here:

I am not answering if Golgotha should be in the Land Rush, I am only answering if I think they are the same entity (or viewed as such). My thoughts on if they should be in the Land Rush are on page 1.

TEO was separate Organizations that banded together to make TEO. Eventually we joined CotP as a branch, or a bridge into PFO, once OE starts.

Golgotha was separate Organizations that banded together to make Golgotha. Eventually they joined Pax, but Pax already had a branch in PFO. It would seem that it was more of an alliance/kingdom, at first, but instead of presenting your tags as Xeilias, they were all under the umbrella of Pax.

Going into the Landrush, Roseblood didn't put RA/RBA in front of their Settlement/Guild names. Some put "Signatory of the Roseblood Accord" at the bottom of their pages.

Golgotha didn't put EoX, or Empire of Xeilias in their name, both Aeternum and Golgotha put Pax. Furthermore, their websites go to the same place, and the following can be read on Golgotha's description:

"Description: Pax Golgotha is a division of the Pax Gaming Community with a focus on PVP, Grand Strategy, Settlement Warfare, and Political Scenarios. Golgothan Society will be molded loosely off of The Roman Empire, Noxus from League of Legends, Icecrown from World of Warcraft, and Karrnath from D&D Eberron."

A Division of Pax...

Here is what Aeternum says on their description:

"Aeternum is also a part of a larger gaming community.Pax Gaming is a collection of community minded guilds and members committed to enjoying games of all sorts together. The community has been around since 2001, and has been experiencing games together ever since. We are a community first, and a game aspect later. This means that we fully support all playstyles including PVE, PVP, and RP. Our interests are not focused on a single game, but includes many MMO's as well as tabletop, shooters, and more. Who a recruit is as a person weighs more heavily than any other consideration. We follow Wheaton's Law, and find that training a good person how to better play is relatively easy. The same can not be said of training a good player to be a better person. We are a group of friends, family, and like minded geeks. We are a no drama community."

From the announcement of LR2, with the spirit and letter of the rules posted, instead of separating themselves, distancing themselves, they decided to make a unified front. That unified front makes them seem like they are both Divisions of Pax Gaming, and thus the same entity.

So are they the same entity? I think this answer is somewhere between a Yes and a NO, at this point. No, they weren't before Golgotha joined Pax, but at this point they have intertwined. Now, just how far that goes is what is up in the air, because they use the same Tags (until recently) on the forums, they founded their settlements under the same tags, under the same mega-community, with the same website. At this point perception is everything, and it really does look like they are of the same group. Now, the question I pose, is this....

Has Golgotha recruited members from the Pax gaming community? Have members switched sides based on their preferences to play Evil or Neutral? Does ever member of both organizations realize that you are working under two different agendas? Have you worked together, as one group to funnel votes? Do you share the same meta-structure? For example if Pax has a hierarchy structure outside of PFO, does Golgotha participate in that structure?

I think that if Golgotha and Aeternum can answer most of these questions and it falls into the category that they are just sharing a website, and that they just really want to make Xeilias, then they are good to go. If they can't answer these questions to the point that they aren't so intertwined, then Yes, they are pretty much the same organization.

Note: I used TEO and Roseblood as examples only, since those are the only relevant examples to this community.

Goblin Squad Member

I remember from my days in WoW as well as other games with a 2 faction system that in many cases a group of players will set up a guild on one faction and play and play and eventually reach the end game and think, hey, what about we try this from the other side and form a second guild, with the same people on the second faction.

Now, if you relate factions in WoW and other games to alignments in pfo AND keep in mind destinys twins,

Is PaxA going to be the off-alignment dumping ground for the PaxG twins and PaxG the dumping ground for the off-alignment PaxA twins?

How much cross-membership will there be between these two groups and at what point do we consider them one group of players forming two guilds to play both alignments (factions) vs. two separate and distinct groups of players forming two separate and distinct guilds that allied themselves for a common purpose?

Eventually the decision will come down to GW it looks like and unfortunately there will be no right decision.

Welcome to the world of MMO's GW where every decision you make will be the wrong one to some of the people, the right one to some of the people and the best you can hope for is that most of the people really won't give a crap because they will be too busy happily playing the game.

Goblin Squad Member

The following is just my opinion:

I perceive the two "companies" in question to be one in the same. Why you ask? PAX is not an alliance, as far as I'm aware. They share a website. They shared the PAX tag, doesn't matter that they changed it. I wonder if Golgotha settlement comes under attack will Aeternum come to defend and vice versa? Are members allowed to move between companies? Can Aeternum and Golgotha join separate alliances or does Pax have to?

It also bothers me a bit that they have the developers ears like they did and they ignore what Ryan had said to them in a pm, and then on top of that, one of the people who Ryan was talking to, quotes Ryan's pm and does it in a way to mislead the community.


Wasn't there something about one Pax being the military and another being the traders or some such?

If they had defined the roles of their cities, I don't see how they aren't "One".

Or am I once again lost here?

Goblin Squad Member

My biased opinion as a member of TEO is that Pax Gaming is a one guild concerning the landrush. There I've said it.

If I compare Pax Gaming with Covenant of the Phoenix gaming community, they are not different in any way. So why does Covenant of the Phoenix gaming community have only one guild in the landrush? Are we stupid?

Pax Gaming should definitely have only one guild in the landrush. There, I've said it.

Sorry, if this offends someone and undermines their effort and work they have have put in creating friendships and relations.


Oh, and thank you Ryan for giving other people an opening to state their opinions.

Was getting a bit scary there

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
If people who have not already posted in this thread would like to speak, I would like to hear them. If you've already said your piece, I'd ask that you now stop posting here and let's see what some other people have to say.

I am representing only my own thoughts here.

I believe that Pax is one gaming community, however I do still believe that Golgatha should receive its settlement. Due to the circumstances involved, I'm sure Golgatha would never have joined up with Pax in the case they knew this was going to occur. Additionally, Pax has put a fair effort into trying to clear up the whole situation and make amends.

Goblin Squad Member

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My opinion is that Pax is an umbrella organisation and that Aeternum and Golgotha are separate entities for the purposes of PFO. They are starting settlements that are vastly different concepts with differing alignments, plus Golgotha was planned prior to joining the Pax community. More than happy to see Golgotha continue on in the landrush.

Aside from that, a few observations.

Removing Golgotha from the landrush will only annoy people prior to the game even starting. Is that really wanted or needed?
Golgotha is the only 'evil' settlement placed in the top 10. Diversity is a good thing and we need that within in the game.
The initial landrush was poorly executed and to penalise sections of a gaming community (Golgotha) reflects on Goblinworks just as much as the community.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Disclaimer: I am a former member of Pax Aeternum, and still an at-large member of Pax Gaming. I applied to Aeternum in July of last year, and resigned in January of this year. It was an amicable split, at least on my side (I won't speak for Pax Aeternum). I've avoided posting in this thread because of the possibility of thread derailment over the above, but Ryan expressed an interest in hearing from new voices, and my perspective is a different one.

"One guild or several" doesn't quite capture the essence, I think. I view - have vewed, since Golgotha joined - the PfO Pax divisions as being more like departments within a single entity: each with their own management team, and all reporting in however loose a manner to upper management. As such, I perceive some constraints in just how independently decisions can be made.

Further, the very deliberate Pax prefix branding, here on the forums, reinforced that view.

If a former member, as well as unaffiliated community members, can sincerely hold that view, then at the least I think Pax has a perception problem. And while this is a unique enough case (initial Land Rush votes were kept after all; Golgotha didn't know this when negotiating to join Pax as an evil division) that I think GoblinWorks is correct in not deciding the matter, I'm something of a bleeding heart. Were I still a member of Aeternum (or Fidelis), I'd be urging Golgotha to bank community goodwill (and quite possibly pick up a grateful future ally) by allowing the 31st guild to take that spot.

Goblin Squad Member

As TEO members have been posting here, I wish to emphasize that they represent individual opinions in much the way that I have expressed mine. TEO is not an organization that impedes its members' ability to independently express their thoughts.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
As TEO members have been posting here, I wish to emphasize that they represent individual opinions in much the way that I have expressed mine. TEO is not an organization that impedes its members' ability to independently express their thoughts.

I'm waiting for a member of TEO to chime-in:

"That's not what you told us in that meeting last week?? You said we're not entitled to our own opinions and voices!!"

;)

Goblin Squad Member

Lets get an official judgement on this before the 1st.

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