Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
So at level 20 they are looking at 30 in init baseline. Before level 20 they can be beat by other classes depending on rolls, but afterwards it would be really really tough.
The short version of this argument is that an Elf Diviner with the Fleet-Footed alternate racial trait, Warrior of Old, 16 dex, a scorpion familiar and Improved Initiative nets you +16 at first level with a maximum casting stat and is very close to what you would build if initiative were irrelevant. None of those other characters are anywhere near that fast at first level.
Because they are wizards without archetypes.
Also, did you mean lose instead of loose?
With a quicken spell-like ability feat, they might also be able to use Diviner's Fortune before combat to give them an additional +10 on their next initiative.
Diviner has +40 without any other help.
+4 Familiar
+4 Feat
+5 from high dex score
+1 luck
+1 drug
+1 drug (Dex)
+4 cat's grace (+4 bonus, +4 more from discovery)
so at 20th level after the surprise round the diviner wizard has an initiative check of: 60
You can get a really high initiative by mulitclassing, but unless you can control the battlefield or put down the opponent before they go what is the point?
Ifrit Diviner w/ familiar, wildfire heart racial trait, reactionary, and improved initiative comes in at +19 at level 1; if you really want to max out your dex you could start with an 18 dex and get +20 at level 1 but most point buys would make this impractical for a caster. The only downside is you would start with a 16 Int instead of the 18 being an elf would likely net you.
Any character with a decent charisma and spare feats can get a familiar via Eldritch heritage, true. However CHA based classes tend to be short on feats. Mysterious stranger gunslingers included.
Also while a wizard can do something to control multiple targets (or save themselves with a defensive spell) with their surprise round a gunslinger gets to drop one target max. The situation is slightly better if no surprise is involved.
Edit: yeah, 1v1 PvP games maybe. That's a fairly exotic situation though.
I think that outside of Ifrit Gunslingers, nobody is gonna match up to the Elf Diviner. All beastmass proves is that you need to nerf the ever loving bejeezus out of casters for anyone else to have a chance. Contingency beats initiative every time. So while some of the other speedster archetypes can compete for a while they perma-lose after level 11 or so to literally anyone who can cast Contingency and some type of escape spell. Between 3 and 8 an Ifrit Gunslinger or Kensai has coin flip odds, but needing a bigger racial bonus to almost keep up is telling.
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You seem to be forgetting that all other bonuses being the same, most of these other classes and archetypes other than the Kensai still have to roll to get their final initiative, the diviner just assumes a 20.
And yes, whilst other classes can get those same feats and traits, many of them have competing options that are vital to their builds (especially at lower levels; Precise Shot, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, etc etc). A Diviner really doesn't have much they need feat wise and so are far more free to buy abilities that help them go first, hence in general Diviners are considered one of the fastest builds around.
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I believe some multiclassed Rouge had +80 initiative in his Favored terrain cause of "Terrain Mastery" - Rogue talent, combined with something which multiplied the bonus.
Something like Terrain Mastery (17 times), through rogue talents and "extra rogue talent feat". = +34, then I don't remember what was posted... Somewhere in the whining rogue guides.
and you can get a full round action if you took valet familiar and lookout
For the record: Auto-20 is something like a +9.5 bonus, effectively.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The Diviner wins this one (even vs. gunslingers and/or kensai in my book) not only because of innate bonuses, but because they are entirely self-reliant. They don't even need WBL, they have spells.
A naked 20th level Diviner, given a few rounds to buff (some of which will last all day), will win initiative nearly every time. It's built into the class.
Oh, and you can also create demiplanes, stop time, summon demons, see the future...
No WBL, naked... that's a tough commoner.
No spell components is no spells !!
You should take a look at just how many spells don't require any material or focus components.
Also, Eschew Materials is a feat, not just a sorcerer class feature. ;)
The Diviner wins this one (even vs. gunslingers and/or kensai in my book) not only because of innate bonuses, but because they are entirely self-reliant. They don't even need WBL, they have spells.
A naked 20th level Diviner, given a few rounds to buff (some of which will last all day), will win initiative nearly every time. It's built into the class.
Oh, and you can also create demiplanes, stop time, summon demons, see the future...
No WBL, naked... that's a tough commoner.
No spell components is no spells !!
Eschew Materials
Feat to use divine focus for any material component of 100g or lessCould argue that your body is a divine focus for Iori?
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The Diviner wins this one (even vs. gunslingers and/or kensai in my book) not only because of innate bonuses, but because they are entirely self-reliant. They don't even need WBL, they have spells.
A naked 20th level Diviner, given a few rounds to buff (some of which will last all day), will win initiative nearly every time. It's built into the class.
Oh, and you can also create demiplanes, stop time, summon demons, see the future...
No WBL, naked... that's a tough commoner.
No spell components is no spells !!
Unless you took Eschew Materials and/or False Focus + a Holy Symbol Tattoo...
Edit: Ninja'd by 19 seconds
It's been said, but every one of those other classes can do some damage on winning initiative, wizards completely cripple encounters when they go first. This is a lot like complaining that ants can lift much more than humans, relative to their body weight. The non caster types sure can eek out an initiative win every once in a while and do relatively little with it :-)
Also by RAW the wizard could have a completely legitimate Efreeti at his service granting wishes, so you need to assume +5 to all stats, he can have this via normal binding, via a discovery (true name), or via a Simulacrum. Also, the wizard can have a +4 profane bonus to his main stat and a +2 bonus to his Dex for initiative help via his simulacrum succubus profane gift and the greater named version of the succubus.
The wizard has even more tricks for this you're not including.
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The Kensai Magus has the BEST initiative in the game (No joke!)!
Auto 20 for initiative, acting during surprise round, and isntead of 1/2 level added to initiative (which caps at 10), they add intelligence to initiative (A recent Kensai build has 14 intelligence).
Both of the Kensai's typical main stats add to AC and Initiative, meaning amazing initiative is common.
Sample:
2 (reactionary) + 4(improved initiative) + 4(greensting scorpion familiar) + 14(intelligence) + 8 (dexterity) + 20 (automatic die roll) = 52 for every initiative roll, even surprise rounds.
The only thing I can see adding to this would be an inquisitor dip for the wisdom to initiative, but you'd be giving up the automatic 20 ability.
I assume you mean 38 intelligence (for a +14 intelligence modifier).
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Actually a divine strategist who takes the tactics inquisition (plus all the usual trait/feat add ons) comes out on top here....
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The Kensai Magus has the BEST initiative in the game (No joke!)!
Auto 20 for initiative, acting during surprise round, and isntead of 1/2 level added to initiative (which caps at 10), they add intelligence to initiative (A recent Kensai build has 14 intelligence).
Both of the Kensai's typical main stats add to AC and Initiative, meaning amazing initiative is common.
Sample:
2 (reactionary) + 4(improved initiative) + 4(greensting scorpion familiar) + 14(intelligence) + 8 (dexterity) + 20 (automatic die roll) = 52 for every initiative roll, even surprise rounds.
The only thing I can see adding to this would be an inquisitor dip for the wisdom to initiative, but you'd be giving up the automatic 20 ability.
Kensai gets the automatic 20 at level 19.
Level 20 is weapon master, which I would never trade for a few extra points of initiative.
A tricked out Horizon Walker beats them all eventually.
I suppose the fastest I can think of is Ifrit Diviner 1/ Cavalier 1/ Bandit 6/ Inquisitor 2/ Horizon Walker 10 at Mythic Tier 10 with all feats not named Improved Initiative retrained into Extra Rogue Talent: Terrain Mastery, high as you can get dexterity and wisdom. Has the benefit of being able to reactively beat everyone else's initiative and then grant all allies that initiative as well as the ability to take a swift, move and standard action in the surprise round.
Or that insane Nature Oracle 20 infinite charisma from Awaken loop, if it hasn't been nerfed yet.
EDIT: Looking at Lookout I don't think you can actually grant the swift action, but you get it yourself from Bandit. The whole point is to be standing next to someone who CAN one shot everything like a full caster or someone who can do 500 DPR.
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Yeah... That cleric would beat the Kensai by 11.
The age stuff was already taken into account, along with a mantle of immortality :P.
But Wait! There's more!
Kensai has Monstrous Physique, and with the proper equipment can function normally as any Elemental (O.o, that's by RAW, though a lot of DM's say no to it). That's another 3 to the bonus (dexterity increases by 6 from being a diminutive Monstrous Humanoid)!
In addition, A samsaran Kensai or a Kensai with spell blending can get Anticipate Peril, another +5 on the check.
Neither of those two spells (anticipate peril and monstrous physique) are available to clerics, even samsaran clerics.
So, 3 (extra dexterity) + 5 (anticipate Peril) + 4 (dueling weapon) = 12, just enough to once again take the lead :P.
Also, Irifit would get the Cleric a net increase of 3 (because of the -2 to wisdom) whereas the magus would not lose any of the +4 bonus :P.
EDIT: This was in reply to insaneogeddon... took too long to respond O.o
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True...
Or a rod of extend, casted every so often when going through that dungeon when you know you'll be expecting encounters.
Or pearls of power, as cheap as 500 gold with the draft wondrous item feat :P. That's 24,000 gold in pearls of power to keep the +5 bonus continuously up for 16 hours (or 48,000 without the crafting feat).
Not clear on why the divine strategist is so high on your list since he gets all the same bonuses a diviner gets, except no familiar to add a free +4 initiative at 1st level.
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Not clear on why the divine strategist is so high on your list since he gets all the same bonuses a diviner gets, except no familiar to add a free +4 initiative at 1st level.
If he's got the Tactics Subdomain he can roll twice and pick the better. He could theoretically also get a Familiar with Eldritch Heritage.
EDIT: Ah! Forgot the Tactics Inquisition. Those'd stack...