Scried? Fried? DENIED!

[Ross Byers]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Dimension door to somewhere out of the new arrivals' line-of-sight? (Or is that too much of a judgement call for the spell to make on its own)?

I think that's too much. Dimension door to the panic room would work, though I'm not sure what would happen if your contingency triggered while out of range of the panic room. Dimension door 'away' or 'north' would work, but won't necessarily always be out of sight.

[RJGrady]

Anything that foils vision will foil scry, too. Invisibility, illusions, total darkness...

[Lincoln Hills]

Regarding illusions: I'm still wondering about the point I raised back in the fourth post.

[andreww]

Ross Byers wrote:

"Lincoln Hills"Dimension door[/i wrote:

to somewhere out of the new arrivals' line-of-sight? (Or is that too much of a judgement call for the spell to make on its own)?

I think that's too much. Dimension door to the panic room would work, though I'm not sure what would happen if your contingency triggered while out of range of the panic room. Dimension door 'away' or 'north' would work, but won't necessarily always be out of sight.

I quite like maximum range directly upwards. Make sure to have feather fall available just in case your overland flight isn't up. Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility and Resilient Sphere are all pretty decent options.

[CWheezy]

A houserule that makes the world of golarion actually sense is "Teleportation is blocked by 5 feet of earth, 3 of wood, 1 of stone, or 1 inch of steel"

Or whatever kirth said. Castles are actually more meaningful now! sorta

[Lincoln Hills]

Regarding the earlier hallow/dimensional anchor combination:

I've reviewed the descriptions of the two spells carefully, and as far as I can tell, this combination won't prevent intrusion. Dimensional anchor affects creatures or objects, not locations; and a creature that teleports in, by definition, isn't in the hallowed area until he/she has already teleported. So, meaning no disrespect to whichever AP writer came up with the combo, it still seems to me that a hallow linked to dimensional anchor only keeps intruders from getting out that way, not from arriving.

[Kayerloth]

Understand (or decide if you're the GM) how the spells used work in your campaign. By that I mean what limits do they have and make sure to apply them. You can stop the divination (i.e the scrying part) or stop the teleportation.

Scry is not automatic particularly if the PC's have limited information on their foe and have never personally met their foe ... that's a +5 on the targets Will save when the Scry is attempted. Foes who make the save will know they've saved against a magical effect. They may not know it was a Scry spell but an intelligent foe is going to try and figure out what happened. Scrying magic usually creates a sensor which may be perceived by those with LOS to the sensor. That doesn't mean just the target can see the sensor anyone in the area can potentially note the sensor (and potentially bring every ones attention to its existence). This perception check is a flat non-scaling DC making any sensor increasingly likely to be noticed as higher level foes are encountered as the campaign advances. The sensor may be dispelled as an active spell. This in turn goes back to deciding how its works in your campaign. If in your world you can use Teleport via 'viewed once' by Scrying ... how long does it take for those viewing the area to qualify as 'viewed once', 1 round, 5 rounds, longer, it varies (maybe you start at a 'high' DC and each round spent observing the surrounding give the scryer a bonus)? Makes a difference if the target notes the sensor and begins attempting to Dispel the sensor, starts prepping for combat or flees the area, etc. etc..

Spells I've used with my Loremaster:

• Detect Scrying
• False Vision
• Non-Detection
• Mind Blank
• Secure Shelter+Private Sanctum
• Private Sanctum on where ever I am
• Screen

My favorite is by far Detect Scrying ... nothing beats turning the tables on the scryer and you become the scryer and fryer. Bonus points if the "accurate distance and direction" provided allow you to Dimension Door with friends to your scryer (and those friends still have actions that round surprise!!!)

Most of my martial characters would simply make sure their allies were aware and start prepping for combat (or otherwise plan according to the spellcasters response, such as the above mentioned turnabout with Detect Scrying). It also assumes they haven't been shielded somehow by the groups spellcasters (such as having Non-Detection cast on them).

Note that since Scrying allows SR that makes the spell vulnerable to countering via things like Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity which I don't often see mentioned probably because it's assumed the caster is arcane rather than divine in these scenarios.

Quote:

Anything that foils vision will foil scry, too. Invisibility, illusions, total darkness...

No lack of being able to see the target won't stop the Scrying spell. Scrying creates a sensor with both vision and hearing ability. It will make viewing the area (for 'viewed once') a bit tougher, however, and hence put a hurting on any following teleport attempt as a result (and by tougher obviously without a true and accurate vision of the area teleport will not work or worse may make it a disaster --> this is what False Vision is likely to create for the 'porter' for example). It's also another place where the GM will need to decide how it works in his world. What effect does it have when the scryer attempts to view an invisible target or a shapechanged one, or an area shrouded in fog or other obscurement (magical or mundane in nature).

Life calls, messing with teleportation will have to wait for now.

[Kayerloth]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Here's a tricky follow-up question. Suppose you've only seen somebody while they're disguised (shape-shifted, illusion, etc.) as somebody else. When you scry, do you see the person you met - or the person they were disguised as? <snip>

Personally I'd be upping their (the foes) Will save vs Scry (probably by +5 at least, but less than +10) and then go from there. The spell Scry will zero in on the individual creature regardless of disguise (magical or mundane) or the visual conditions around them (least that's how I'd run it). So if you met the individual while in disguise then used Scry you might be a bit confused at what you are seeing if they were not so disguised but also may end up learning a bit more about your foe in the end. Either way they will appear as they currently appear (either magically or mundanely). However, at least in my experience, such foes also tend to use further magic and items to prevent successful Scrying attempts such as Nondetection especially around folks like PC characters and spellcasters.

Teleporting with intent to due bodily harm (and lots of it).
Again be sure to not give the spell any abilities that it doesn't have and all the drawbacks it does have. I'd start with having a good idea of what I think each category entails.

Target limits - Remember all those familiars, animal companions, mounts, pets, summons have to fall within the limit on creature quantities. Remember the size of the creatures ... that druids dire companion, the enlarged fighter etc.. Yes sticking them inside an extradimensional space will work but has its own drawbacks.

Viewed once - decent odds (~ 1 in 4) that something won't go as expected. I have a tendency to go all sandbox on this one if 'similar area' comes up and if you stuck them in the portable hole they are still in there when things go haywire at your new unexpected destination.

Teleportation won't work if there is no access to the Astral Plane.

Just how high was that ceiling in the goblin or kobold lair anyway? (GM'ing question - do you arrive when teleporting in the same relative position, standing, kneeling, laying down squatting whatever?)
Too bad the surface of that bog mat only supports a couple hundred pounds and the bottom of that murky body of water it floats on is 4 to 5 feet of thick silt and mud (but looked just like a forest floor when viewed via Scry)

[seebs]

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Here's a tricky follow-up question. Suppose you've only seen somebody while they're disguised (shape-shifted, illusion, etc.) as somebody else. When you scry, do you see the person you met - or the person they were disguised as?

If it's appearance- rather than identity-based, then something as simple as disguise self will prevent the scrying from reaching the correct target... which is probably not the RaI. But if it always targets the creature you met - regardless of changes in appearance - scrying could be used as an "identity check" and as a (slow and approximate) locator for invisible creatures, probably with some other possible innovations that I'm not thinking of...

At any rate, if scrying requires a visual description, staying in darkness all the time would work (teleporting in blindly would be a big risk). If it's identity-based, then misdirection might show the character you're "swapping" with, though I certainly don't recall either spell specifying that.

I'd be particularly interested in hearing about items and conditions that'd allow non-spellcasters to shield themselves (aside from the already-mentioned amulet of protection...)

This is a fascinating question. My thought is, the key thing is how you identify who you're trying to scry. You might just be unable to scry them correctly if your description is sufficiently-bad.

But say that I have met Jim, but when I met him, he was disguised as Bob.

If I try to scry "The guy I met", I am scrying Jim. If I try to scry "Bob", I am scrying Bob. My chances of success may vary...

[Ashiel]

Freehold DM wrote:

Just getting a thread started for someone who asked about ways around scryin' and fryin' one's way through an adventure. I know most scrying attempts can be blocked by thin sheets of lead or thick piles of stone, can we get a compilation of the ways to avoid scry/fry in this thread?

A couple of major things to remember with scrying spells is that...

1. Scrying does not affect locations or objects. Only creatures. Creatures that usually get saving throws with huge bonuses. This is the #1 deterrent to scry & die tactics. You also need a possession of someone that you have no knowledge of, which means using it as a scouting tactic isn't really all that effective.

Even when you do, your target can easily be looking at +5 to +8 bonuses on their saving throw to resist your scrying, and you can't re-try a scrying attempt until 24 hours later.

2. As others have pointed out, there's a lot of cute ways to prevent divinations. Nondetection and such is one obvious way. For the more enterprising, mage's private sanctum can pretty much ward a fortress or something. You get 30 sqft. / caster level of "can't see me" at a 24 hours. You can make it permanent with a permanency spell, but it would also be fun to make into a magic item.

One of my PCs once had a small snowglobe with a house inside of it. It cast secure shelter and private sanctum 1/day. :P

[Elder Basilisk]

The 3.5 delay teleportation and the greater version do a great job of making scry & fry less effective. They delay the arrival of the teleporting creatures for 1 (or 3 for greater) rounds and alert the caster to the number & location of arrivals. That's long enough to leave the area or prepare the cloudkill+forcecage+bladebarrier greeting party. And they're low enough levels and long enough duration to be practical solutions.

For non-mages they can be put in an item but the threat that someone with the spell up might be in the area is enough to make scry & fry a risky tactic.

[Kirth Gersen]

CASTLES AND DUNGEONS
Spells (and abilities duplicating the effects of spells) with the [teleportation] descriptor cannot penetrate to an area that is entirely enclosed by more than 1 ft. of solid stone, 3 ft. of earth, an inch of metal, and/or a thin coating of lead (an exception is teleportation circle, which works normally). The same restriction applies to scrying effects. This guideline, adapted from the Dungeonomicon (Frank and “K,” The Gaming Den), not only curtails “scry-and-fry” tactics, but also provides a rationale for the prevalence of both castles and dungeons in a game world in which dragons exist.
Kings therefore live in stone castles, not for defensibility from armies, but for secrecy; if a need to teleport or use scrying magic comes up, they can go to an outside room and open a leaded-glass window, but while inside an inner room with stone walls and a lead-lined door, their councils are protected from eavesdropping and teleporting assassins. Many wizards likewise live in stone towers with designated divining and transportation rooms open to the outside. Tombs and cultist headquarters are typically found in dungeons underground for similar reasons.
Divination and dimension door effects within a dungeon or building itself are normally not affected, as the doorways, rooms, and corridors provide “open” pathways of effect within the complex itself. However, rooms with stone walls and thick stone or metal doors (such as all of the Tomb of Horrors beyond the Chapel of Evil and Stone Gate) would fall under these guidelines.

[Lincoln Hills]

On reflection, it seems likely that when you scry on somebody who was in disguise when you initially met 'em, you'd get that person even if they looked entirely different. I base this on the fact that if somebody's invisible, you can still scry on them - you don't get a "nobody with that appearance exists" result or something wonky like that. Therefore, current appearance has no effect on scrying attempts... although if you've only ever met them while they were disguised, it does make scrying trickier because you don't even have an accurate appearance to go by.

Life in my campaigns just got a bit more difficult for doppelgangers. Poor li'l guys.

[Tacticslion]

Don't forget Rakshasa!

[Ross Byers]

I think it might partially be dependent on who the doppelgangers are disguised as. If you see a shapeshifted impersonating the Lord Mayor, and you later attempt to scry (without getting a toenail clipping or something), you probably asked the scry spell for "Show me the Lord Mayor", not "Show me that guy we saw doing shifty stuff in the alley, who looked identical to the Lord Mayor."

Does that make sense?

[Lincoln Hills]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Carries an interesting corollary, though: a nonmagical Disguise check to impersonate somebody can beat a fifth-level spell. Go Team Rogue! ;)

[Ross Byers]

Yep. Only works if you impersonate someone either famous or already known to the PCs, but that's a meaningful amount of the time.

Magic is like anything else. You only get the right answer if you ask the right question.

[DSXMachina]

And I wonder how much the magic would care about peoples names titles?
"Show me the Lord Mayor" Could that give of any town, or a previous one? Of course this could result in the GM just messing around with the players. But without the material component, maybe the spell requires their 'True name'?

[Ross Byers]

DSXMachina wrote:

And I wonder how much the magic would care about peoples names titles?

"Show me the Lord Mayor" Could that give of any town, or a previous one? Of course this could result in the GM just messing around with the players. But without the material component, maybe the spell requires their 'True name'?

It's not about the name, its about what other information the caster has to steer the spell with: A scrying spell is more effective the more you know about the target.

"Show me the Lord Mayor" isn't the spell understanding how titles work. It's that it is referencing the idea of this particular public figure in the caster's mind. It's just slightly muddled because it is combining "Guy who gives public speeches and lives in the big mansion up the hill" with "guy we saw paying off an assassin in an alley in the bad part of town."

It won't accidentally give you the mayor of the next town.

[CWheezy]

Well, the spell is sr yes, so if you have to roll and sr check you will probably be like "Hmmm, the lord mayor has sr, that is weird for a human"

[Ross Byers]

That's true, or you might just think his house is warded against scrying.

[Charender]

CWheezy wrote:

A houserule that makes the world of golarion actually sense is "Teleportation is blocked by 5 feet of earth, 3 of wood, 1 of stone, or 1 inch of steel"

Or whatever kirth said. Castles are actually more meaningful now! sorta

5 feet of earth also make a lot of caves and lairs useful as well.

I am also not sure that it is a house rule. The 3 feet of stone, an inch of metal or a thin sheet of lead was a hard rule in 2nd ed. It got dropped in 3.0 by accident, then added back in 3.5 as just a sheet of lead, but you could easily claim that stone, metal, and lead is the actual RAI, but the developer didn't want to add in ALL of the limitations.

[LazarX]

Zhayne wrote:

Ban the offending spells. Eliminate the disease, not the symptoms.

The spells are not the problem its the GM adjudication of them. Scrying a creature is of absolutely no help you don't get clues to the location, and there are a lot of mundane methods of denying that information. If you don't have a good idea of who you're scrying.... i.e. your only knowledge of him is his disguised self, then you can't even get a lockon for scry.

GMs need to keep in mind that in a world with an established magical tradition, all the would be overlords that would have fallen to cheap tricks are dead already, and those who came after them have learned from their mistakes.

[DrDeth]

LazarX wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

Ban the offending spells. Eliminate the disease, not the symptoms.

The spells are not the problem its the GM adjudication of them. Scrying a creature is of absolutely no help you don't get clues to the location, and there are a lot of mundane methods of denying that information. If you don't have a good idea of who you're scrying.... i.e. your only knowledge of him is his disguised self, then you can't even get a lockon for scry.

GMs need to keep in mind that in a world with an established magical tradition, all the would be overlords that would have fallen to cheap tricks are dead already, and those who came after them have learned from their mistakes.

True, but the spells aren't worded as well as they could be.

[Charender]

LazarX wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

Ban the offending spells. Eliminate the disease, not the symptoms.

The spells are not the problem its the GM adjudication of them. Scrying a creature is of absolutely no help you don't get clues to the location, and there are a lot of mundane methods of denying that information. If you don't have a good idea of who you're scrying.... i.e. your only knowledge of him is his disguised self, then you can't even get a lockon for scry.

GMs need to keep in mind that in a world with an established magical tradition, all the would be overlords that would have fallen to cheap tricks are dead already, and those who came after them have learned from their mistakes.

I was going to add that being secretive would also be a good defense. If no one knows who you really are, Scry won't work at all. If all you have is a name, that isn't the person's real name, you can't scry them either. This might get back into the idea that true names matter.

[Ckorik]

teleport trap stop teleports - either you go to jail or the spell fails - it also stop dimension door and other type effects unless you know the password - so it's an awesome BBEG tool.

It's also able to be made permanent - I learned about this spell in the Reign of Winter AP.

[Charender]

Oh, and to add to the teleport trap angle.

Teleport trap shunts them into a solid stone room with a single iron door. Inside this room is a trap that is triggered by a detect magic spell. The trap results in an antimagic field going off that covers the whole room. After peaking into the room, you have the option of filling it with burning oil or some other unpleasantness.