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Just getting a thread started for someone who asked about ways around scryin' and fryin' one's way through an adventure. I know most scrying attempts can be blocked by thin sheets of lead or thick piles of stone, can we get a compilation of the ways to avoid scry/fry in this thread?
Nondetection: Only last 1 hour per level but is a good start.
Amulet of Proof Against Detection & Location: Gives permanent Nondetection, but is only DC 19 to overcome.
Forbiddance: Doesn't stop the scry, but it stops the teleport in to fry.
False Vision: More devious than Nondetection, as not only is there no check to overcome it, but you make the scryer see what you want to see.
Teleport Trap: When they try to teleport in to fry you they're instead teleported to the dungeon cell you've prepared for them instead.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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First, make sure you don't give the spells any more power than they already have.
Scrying only targets creatures, not locations. You have to be able to specify your target, no scrying random employees or henchmen of the villain unless you can single out a specific one. The target gets a Will save, and if it succeeds they shut down your scrying for 24 hours. If you're scrying the BBEG just because you've heard of him/her/it, a +5 applies to the Will save as well.
It's possible to notice the scrying sensor with a moderate Perception check(DC20+spell level). So a target can also be very aware that they've been spied on, and take precautions.
Clairvoyance lets you scry locations, but the range restricts that spell.
Since you do see the surroundings, you could now teleport to that location - probably using the "viewed once" line, which is not terribly great.
I'm also of the camp that says you can't teleport to a moving vehicle like a ship or wagon.
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Being on a differ plane of existence works well too. Have a small domain in the Astral Sea or something.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Besides what's already been mentioned, mage's private sanctum, mind blank, having a good Will save, and being on another plane can help you beat the scrying.
Detect scrying can give you an early warning if you're about to get scried-and-fried.
Hallow and unhallow with nasty spell effects attached can make it difficult to attack you in your lair. Silence directed against anyone not of your alignment is good for this since it shuts down the spellcasters that you need to do the scry-and-fry in the first place.
Besides what's already been mentioned, mage's private sanctum, mind blank, having a good Will save, and being on another plane can help you beat the scrying.
Detect scrying can give you an early warning if you're about to get scried-and-fried.
Hallow and unhallow with nasty spell effects attached can make it difficult to attack you in your lair. Silence directed against anyone not of your alignment is good for this since it shuts down the spellcasters that you need to do the scry-and-fry in the first place.
Unless said attacker has the said defender well scouted and prepares silenced fry spells
It's far better than porting in and not being able to cast.
I almost feel this topic should be some sort of addendum to the evil overlord list…
The somewhat pricey Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls is an excellent investment when you want to make sure that a bunch of adventurers aren’t going bust in on you in the restroom, torture chamber, or other function you prefer to perform with some level of privacy.
For those who prefer a more proactive approach, if you're looking more to reverse things, the teleport trap option is also good, as well as setting up permanent illusions to make the room you stay in appear to be a different room in your secret base with a pit trap or thin floor barely floating above a pool of green slime, or whatever your preference is for diabolic back-up plans to deal with such things. I also recommend hiring diviners to check to see when the most likely time it is that someone may try to rearrange your decor via fireball, lightning bolt, & disintegrate.
For ensuring that attackers become disappointed, using simulacra to do your day-to-day activities so that they're likely to be the ones blown up, allowing you to activate traps, flee or otherwise respond appropriately might also help against those scry-and-fry tactics.
If you think it likely that it will be a group of do-gooders jumping you rather than rivals, hostages of some sort might also be a good plan, especially if you have ways to ensure that they take damage / effects for you in the event you are attacked in your sanctum.
Finally (at least until I think of more things and have a bit more time to throw them up on the interwebz), making sure that you can escape those annoying scry-fry meddlers is also very important. I recommend you make sure that you have a lever-directed pit trap under your own throne so that you can escape quickly, preferably one that leads to a long pit in a demi-plane of your choice with traps that will heal and remove afflictions from you as you fall, ending in a nice gentle featherfall or other means to escape the known effects of terminal velocity and a hard stop at the bottom. (For extra points, have a real pit dug under your throne / throne room to fool the scryers into thinking it’s actually a vulnerability and make sure you populate the top of it with something unpleasant and loud to have fall upon you).
-TimD
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Ban the offending spells. Eliminate the disease, not the symptoms.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls
Holy smokes. That thing is nuts. Cheaper than an amulet of proof against detection and location and actually works better since it does more and doesn't allow a CL check.
Easiest way seems to be an Unhallow spell with an associated Dimensional Anchor. Key it to only allow people of the same faith/alignment as the baddy, and presto. At least if your baddy has some major divine support.
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I might be wrong, magnuskn, but wouldn't that keep them from teleporting out after they've entered - not keep them from teleporting in? After all, they're not in the area affected by unhallow until they've already arrived. (Not that shutting off escape isn't a very valuable part of the whole countermeasure thing.)
No, the way Unhallow works, it uses the effect of the spell bound to it in its entire area. Since Dimensional Anchor essentially uses the same text as Dimensional Lock, it would work to prevent dimensional travel to that location. And I am pretty sure that Paizo used it that way in an AP module I either ran or read.
I straight-up don't allow scry-and-fry for many of the reasons stated above. I just make it clear to my players at the start of the game that scry-and-fry doesn't work at my table.
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Ban the offending spells. Eliminate the disease, not the symptoms.
Not every group's fun is ruined by scry and fry. Sometimes added complexity is a feature, not a bug.
Holy smokes. That thing is nuts.
Yeah. Though I actually almost bought one to make sure someone stayed dead in a higher level campaign I was a PC in.
There's also this way
I'm most amused that the person with the brain-in-a-jar avatar references the OOTS comic that references becoming a brain-in-a-jar.
That said, yes, glyphs are also an excellent choice :)
-TimD
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The greatest counter to Scry and Fry tactics is to actually ensure that the villain/BBE(or G, in some cases)G is played to their full potential and intelligence, and actually makes use of their abilities.
That is one of the easiest ways to put the kibosh on the "We scry the dragon and teleport into his lair and rocket tag him!".
"So, you are absolutely convinced that your level of magical prowess is going to automatically succeed in over coming the magical prowess of this more powerful being, who has had hundreds of years of experience and time to implement any number of protections to defend himself and his jealously guarded lair? Like he is just going to sit around completely unprepared? OK..."
JJ has said Scry & Fry doesn't work that way. I have a Rules Question working on that.
Basically it seems like what is meant by:"“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying." is that you need to know the location before you can Scry & Tport. In other words, if you know the BBEG has three hangouts, you can use Scry to find out which one of the three known hang-outs he is, then Tport.
This does need clarification. I invite more comments on my thread.
JJ has said Scry & Fry doesn't work that way.
Really? The only thing I had seen from him was that he doesn't allow it to work that way in his home campaign (effectively stating that it is a house rule he follows to avoid the headache it causes him and apparently others).
This does need clarification. I invite more comments on my thread.
Link?
-TimD
Not every group's fun is ruined by scry and fry. Sometimes added complexity is a feature, not a bug.
Then, obviously, these groups would not ban the offending spells. Since it does seem to be a problem with this group, I made a simple and straightforward suggestion.
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In one AP (un-named so as to avoid spoilers), it does mention that, while you could scry on the invading enemy leader's boss and teleport to there, it goes on to mention that you would then be surrounded by the entire invasion force, with no diversion or backup.
But when you aren't targeting a prepared invading force, it looks as if nobody does it for fear of unanticipated countermeasures.
Maybe in your high fantasy setting that's been globalized, there's some sort of treaty that declares teleportation-assisted murder a war crime?
At the very least, whether with a spell or a Cape of the Mountebank, if heavily armed hostile a teleport to you, you could always teleport away. Maybe to a panic room, where your next action is to shut the lead-lined door or call for assistance?
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JJ has said Scry & Fry doesn't work that way.Really? The only thing I had seen from him was that he doesn't allow it to work that way in his home campaign (effectively stating that it is a house rule he follows to avoid the headache it causes him and apparently others).
This does need clarification. I invite more comments on my thread.Link?
-TimD
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpmb?Scry-Fry#1
James has given his opinion on both (non-rules-binding of course!) here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qqqi&page=3?How-are-people-supposed-to-tal k-to-Paizo-exactly
And here's my personal take on the scry & fry scene for folks to use in their games if they want:
It doesn't work. Scrying allows you to observe a creature, but teleportation requires you know a location. Scrying a creature isn't scrying a location, therefore you can't scry on a creature and then teleport to it.
It's all about semantics, but that's often enough to justify overruling an element of game play that was both never intended to be an option and that tends to lessen the fun of game play overall, in my opinion.”
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JJ has said Scry & Fry doesn't work that way.Really? The only thing I had seen from him was that he doesn't allow it to work that way in his home campaign (effectively stating that it is a house rule he follows to avoid the headache it causes him and apparently others).
This does need clarification. I invite more comments on my thread.Link?
-TimD
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpmb?Scry-Fry#1
James has given his opinion on both (non-rules-binding of course!) here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qqqi&page=3?How-are-people-supposed-to-tal k-to-Paizo-exactlyAnd here's my personal take on the scry & fry scene for folks to use in their games if they want:
It doesn't work. Scrying allows you to observe a creature, but teleportation requires you know a location. Scrying a creature isn't scrying a location, therefore you can't scry on a creature and then teleport to it.
It's all about semantics, but that's often enough to justify overruling an element of game play that was both never intended to be an option and that tends to lessen the fun of game play overall, in my opinion.”
With all Respect to Mr. Jacobs, I strongly disagree. Also as the spell Teleport specifically calls out the spell scrying as a way to gain the viewed once condition I feel that not allowing such is very definitely a house rule and needs to be stated as such before hand.
This is not bad, however as there are plenty of ways to counter/deal with Scry-n-Fry as demonstrated by the suggestions upthread, I do not personally feel such a houserule is needed.
I also feel that it would thematically be killing a popular fantasy Trope.
In short the RAW allows for it, and is very clear, so I do not see why this is a rules debate rather than a homebrew discussion.
Please see the last sentence of the Familiarity paragraph (fourth paragraph) in the link above for citation.
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While it mentions Scrying in the Teleport spell, the write up for Scrying itself doesn't seem to support it. It states that you can see the target and 10' around him... even if one could assume that you could glean any specific details to tell that 10' from any other, I cannot imagine it would be a safe landing :P
Also as the spell Teleport specifically calls out the spell scrying as a way to gain the viewed once condition I feel that not allowing such is very definitely a house rule and needs to be stated as such before hand.
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I also feel that it would thematically be killing a popular fantasy Trope.
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In short the RAW allows for it, and is very clear, so I do not see why this is a rules debate rather than a homebrew discussion.
Please see the last sentence of the Familiarity paragraph...
"You must have some clear idea of the location AND layout of the destination."
Scrying gives you the layout but not the location. If you have the location, scrying gives you the 'viewed once' familiarity. If you don't you can't teleport there. RAW!I have no idea what the RAI was there, but any GM who wants to stop scry and fry on those grounds (which still allowing it under certain circumstances where the location is verifiable) can justify it pretty easily.
Being able to teleport anywhere kills the fantasy trope of journeys. To me that's a more popular trope than 'the heroes teleport to the bad guy's bedroom and kills him in his sleep'.
How about Greater Teleport and Scry? Scry and Fry?
Our party did this pretty routinely in Kingmaker.
We'd be like "Townsfolk says evil drake is rampaging through the countryside huh? Well, let's gear up and go kill it."
30 seconds and done :)
"You must have some clear idea of the location AND layout of the destination."
You're splitting hairs, the RAW explicitly states that scrying is sufficient to meet the "viewed once" level of familiarity. The text in this context doesn't distinguish between location or layout, or imply that any further qualifications must be met.
Scry-and-die is one of those things I talk to my players about. I make clear that I'm willing to tailor my game to their tastes, and if their taste involves teleporting assassins I'm happy to oblige that kind of tactical intrigue. However, that's not the sort of game most players want to play (that said, we've done it before in some once-off games, to varying degrees of success)
"You must have some clear idea of the location AND layout of the destination."You're splitting hairs, the RAW explicitly states that scrying is sufficient to meet the "viewed once" level of familiarity. The text in this context doesn't distinguish between location or layout, or imply that further qualifications must be met.
So you think that if you've scryed it you don't need to meet the qualification for distance or material components or "interplanar travel is not possible" or "areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible"?
Yes, I'm deliberately splitting hairs because I prefer that the rules work this way.
So you think that if you've scryed it you don't need to meet the qualification for distance or material components or "interplanar travel is not possible" or "areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible"?
No, because those restrictions are completely separate of the familiarity requirements. "Location and layout", on the other hand, are left to be defined by the familiarity rules, and scrying is specifically called out as meeting the "seen once" familiarity category.
Yes, I'm deliberately splitting hairs because I prefer that the rules work this way.
You're free to house-rule as you see fit; I do it all the time. It doesn't make it RAW, though.
On what basis are you declaring that 'location and layout' is a single concept that is defined later on? There is a long list of qualifiers, followed by a table showing your percentage chance of success - but those are dependent upon you meeting all of the qualifiers, such as location. If they'd put 'location' in a different sentence, would that make a difference to you?
Suppose I'm blindfolded and taken on a ship to an unknown location and led into a meeting room before the blindfold is removed. I am then taken away by the same method. I have viewed it once. I know the layout but not the location. Can I teleport back there? If I can, why is the word 'location' in the spell description? If I can't, why should scrying make it any easier?
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How about Greater Teleport and Scry? Scry and Fry?
Our party did this pretty routinely in Kingmaker.
We'd be like "Townsfolk says evil drake is rampaging through the countryside huh? Well, let's gear up and go kill it."
30 seconds and done :)
How did you Scry a generic Evil dragon?
You're splitting hairs, the RAW explicitly states that scrying is sufficient to meet the "viewed once" level of familiarity. The text in this context doesn't distinguish between location or layout, or imply that any further qualifications must be met.
First the RAW is not so clear:“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying. Note those words "possibly" and "such as".
Next, this is Pathfinder, and in PF, RAI trumps RAW.
I'm always amused by players who think that scry and fry benefits them. I personally love the complexity of the high level game but most of my friends have a story first, rules second mentality. I think understanding just how dangerous a level 9 caster is is scary. Unless specifically told not to by the GM most of my mid level casters live in mortal fear of higher level casters.
When I GM all major locations are teleport proof by necessity. Forbiddance is too easy to get and use. It's not that you can't teleport to nearby, but high level characters don't sleep without Forbiddance the same way mid level ones don't sleep without Rope Trick if they can help it. Detect Scrying is an automatic for most NPCs by about 13th level. An Anti-Magic Field trap set to hit anyone who teleports in will clear your attackers of all their buff spells and is a good idea for people who have mundane bodyguards in abundance.
"If a creature teleports into line of sight... Teleport me to the Cathedral" (or anywhere you know well that's not where you live.)
"If a creature teleports into line of sight... Dazing Pellet Blast them" (or whatever action denial spell you know)
"If a creature teleports into line of sight... Plane Shift them to Hell" (or anywhere really, you just want them gone again)