So I am wondering what is the lowest level you can enter EK and ways that you can accomplish doing so. But then I realized it's also a fun thought experiment to consider the earliest you can enter other prestige classes, so if you have any interesting ways of entering other prestige classes I'd like to hear those too.
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You can enter EK at level 2, if you play an aasimar (3rd-level daylight SLA), and take your first level in Magus (arcane spellcasting class, plus martial weapon proficiency). Probably not a good idea though.
Otherwise, you can wait until level 3, and take a level in Wizard with the scryer subschool for your 3rd-level SLA. Any class with martial weapon proficiency qualifies you after that.
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Generally the requirements for all prestige classes mean that you need to wait 'till level 6 to get in. Either it's 5 ranks in a skill or a collection of feats, base saving throws, class features etc... that are basically all stuff you wouldn't have 'till level 5.
In a way this makes them more prestigious (you have to earn them after all). There's probably a few you could get into earlier but not many (and not really any that I can think of right now). I suppose if you could get into a prestige class earlier then it might as well just be an archetype or even a base class.
Most of them are no more prestigious than the next class, and some of them have been made into archetypes and base classes, see Eldritch Knight -> Magus and Duelist -> Swashbuckler.
You can enter Eldritch Knight in a more "core" way if you take a single level of Divinist Wizard (Scryer) and a level of any Martial Class (I prefer Fighter).
No being forced into weird races ftw!
I thought that the Eldritch Knight class became pretty much obsolete after the Magus showed up. Is there something I missed or is it just a personal preference.
Eldritch Knight 10/Scryer 1/Fighter 1
11d10+1d6 HP5th Level Spells
BAB +11
Base Saves: Fort +7 Ref +3 Will +5
Scribe Scroll, Familiar, 4 Extra Combat Feats
Spell Critical
Magus 12
12d8 HP
4th Level Spells
BAB +9
Base Saves: Fort +8 Ref +4 Will +8
Arcane Pool Tomfoolery, No Spell Failure in Medium Armor, Spellstrike, Spell Recall and Knowledge Pool.
Looks to me like the Magus is a winner, though arguably so. The Eldritch Knight will have more HP and will be better at hitting things, probably getting more static damage through power attack, and have access to higher level spells.
However, the Magus has more versatility with his arcane pool, and can do all sorts of crazy shenanigans with Spellstrike.
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Nah, there's quite a few different EKs you can make. Assuming Aasimar, because Scrying is a lame school;
Paladin2/Sorcerer1 - Charisma casting, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Smite Evil. Pick up Arcane Armor Training or use Magical Lineage/Still Spell to remove Somatic components. You have nearly full BAB, and can do great self-buffing. Fey Foundling feat recommended. You can go ranged or melee, whatever you like.
Sohei2/Empyreal Sorcerer - use Wisdom as casting stat and add it to your AC. Use a Temple Sword 2-handed for the Strength and Power Attack bonus, but use Flurry to make multiple attacks anyway. Since you're not armored your spellcasting isn't inhibited; but you can cast your own Mage Armor now. You can use Arcane Strike as well since you don't need many Swift Actions. Mostly melee-focused; use that practically full BAB and d10 HD. Also enjoy nice bonus feats, Evasion and great saving throws and good Perception.
Fighter1/Scryer1 - select spells that you can Still-cast, and you're basically a fighter who traded some of his bonus feats for full arcane spell progression. Note that the wizard spell list is a bit wider than the magus list, especially the noncombat stuff. If you think fighters are a bit dull because all they can do is fight, this is it. You can be an archer or a melee dude; whatever you like.
There are some more possibilities - ranger into Ray attacker, Oracle of Battle to mix up both divine and arcane casting, and Magus2 to get spell combat and full BAB. You can "build your own bloodrager" with Barbarian but that seems rather silly. Sohei bonus mounted feats might help if you want to make a mounted spellcaster.
In general, you have several possible strategies available;
- Ray spellcasting
- Spellcasting with just a bit more HP
- Melee or ranged warrior that brings his own buff spells
I prefer Fighter1/Wizard5 into Eldritch Knight over a Magus any day. Bonus item creation or metamagic at 5th is pleasant. A couple schools get powers at 6th instead of 8th and taking that Wiz6 can be great then. Best of all, you're not a one-trick pony doing the same trick over and over and over and...
Additionally, EK is pretty much mandatory if you want to play Arcane Archer. You got:
Wizard 1 (Scryer)/Fighter 1/ EK 5/ AA X
Without abusing Early entry and EK you would look like:
Fighter 6/Wizard 1/ AA X
Which is just BAD.
Hmm. I hadn't thought of EK as a gateway to AA yet. Interesting idea.
Yeah, sadly you lose 1 level of spellcasting by going into EK but still better than the alternative. Additionally, the 5 levels of EK gives you 2 bonus feats, which is EXTREMELY useful for Archers.
Oh. but your character sheet will look a little funny with 4 classes... oh and kiss any favored class bonus good bye....
The advantage of going into EK then AA is that EK lets you retain most of your spellcasting and lets you pretty much be like any other ranged character (effectively full BAB-1 (from the 1 wizard level) and 3 bonus feats (1 fighter, 2 EK))
I wanted to do an aasimar sohei/empyrial sorc/EK but every time I do I realize I won't be getting 2nd level spells until 6th level.
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I think EKs fall into two main categories: "full" spellcasters with better BAB, and warriors with an arcane edge.
The "tough" spellcaster we could do previously; Wiz5/Ranger1 for example gives you all the class skills you need. Although if you care about BAB, early entry is of course better. This is good if you want to make extensive use of Ray spells.
The arcane edge warrior style is new; now that you only need 1 level of spellcaster before going in instead of 5-6, you can play what comes down to a full martial character that can also cast a decent number of spells. The Sohei2/Empyreal1 or Paladin2/Sorcerer1 variants are examples of this; and Arcane Archer is one as well really, since that PrC doesn't give you full spell progression anyway. In this case you're not getting the full caster experience, but it's a lot more spellcasting than even a vanilla paladin gets. You get to use all the nice buff spells and use scrolls and wands without a lot of fuss.
All these builds, yet no one mentions Scryer 1/[Martial Class Here] 1/EK 10/Hellknight Signifier 8...
Though, admittedly, that one places some irksome restrictions, but it's still a nice package.
Edit:
Assuming Aasimar, because Scrying is a lame school
I would struggle to disagree with this more - Acting in a surprise round is extremely useful for a gish.
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All these builds, yet no one mentions Scryer 1/[Martial Class Here] 1/EK 10/Hellknight Signifier 8...
Though, admittedly, that one places some irksome restrictions, but it's still a nice package.Edit:
Assuming Aasimar, because Scrying is a lame schoolI would struggle to disagree with this more - Acting in a surprise round is extremely useful for a gish.
I hate having to give up the Foresight subschool for it.
All these builds, yet no one mentions Scryer 1/[Martial Class Here] 1/EK 10/Hellknight Signifier 8...
Though, admittedly, that one places some irksome restrictions, but it's still a nice package.Edit:
Assuming Aasimar, because Scrying is a lame schoolI would struggle to disagree with this more - Acting in a surprise round is extremely useful for a gish.I tried posting this yesterday, but it appears to have failed to post. Here is attempt #2:
Race: Samsaran
(Or any race with a spell-like ability over 2nd lvl and you don't have to be a Scryer Wizard)
Freebooter/Trapper Ranger 1/Scryer Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Hell Knight Signifier 8
Level Class BAB CL for spell access
1 Ranger 1 1 0
2 Wizard 1 1 1
3 EK 1 2 1
4 EK 2 3 2
5 EK 3 4 3
6 HKE 1 4 4
7 HKE 2 5 5
8 HKE 3 6 6
9 EK 4 7 7
10 EK 5 8 8
11 EK 6 9 9
12 EK 7 10 10
13 EK 8 11 11
14 EK 9 12 12
15 EK 10 13 13
16 HKE 4 14 14
17 HKE 5 14 15
18 HKE 6 15 16
19 HKE 7 16 17
20 HKE 8 17 18Feats:
1. Weapon Focus: Nodachi
1. Track (ranger)
2. Scribe Scroll (wizard)
3. Arcane Armor Training (Eldritch Knight)
3. Power Attack
5. Still Spell
7. Arcane Armor Mastery (Hellknight Enforcer)
7. Dimensional Agility
9. Dimensional Assault
10. Weapon Specialization (E.K.)
11. Dimensional Dervish
13. Quicken Spell
15. Improved Critical (E.K.)
15. Critical Focus
17. Blinding Critical
19. Dazing AssaultTraits:
Magical Knack (wizard): +2 Caster level max of HD
Lessons of Chaldira: Reroll save 1/day (because its awesome, no real bearing on the build)** spoiler omitted **...
Just a minor point about the highlighted sentence. Any spell-like ability over 2nd level doesn't help qualify for EK, only 3rd level SLAs.
From the FAQ:
However, spellcasting ability is not inclusive: it is possible (mainly through the use of spell-like abilities) to be able to cast 3rd-level spells but not 2nd-level spells. If you can only cast 3rd-level spells, that does not meet the requirement of "able to cast 2nd-level spells."
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What makes any of you think that a Spell-like Ability qualifies as a spell? It does not. It clearly states In the requirements that the character must be able to cast third level spells. Not have a third level spell-like ability.
What makes any of you think that a Spell-like Ability qualifies as a spell? It does not. It clearly states In the requirements that the character must be able to cast third level spells. Not have a third level spell-like ability.
A fairly recent FAQ has determined that SLAs do count for stuff like this and arcane strike.
Creative Director
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A fairly recent FAQ has determined that SLAs do count for stuff like this and arcane strike.What makes any of you think that a Spell-like Ability qualifies as a spell? It does not. It clearly states In the requirements that the character must be able to cast third level spells. Not have a third level spell-like ability.
Which is, in my opinion, breaking the philosophical point of the nature of the prestige class...
Which is, in my opinion, breaking the philosophical point of the nature of the prestige class...A fairly recent FAQ has determined that SLAs do count for stuff like this and arcane strike.What makes any of you think that a Spell-like Ability qualifies as a spell? It does not. It clearly states In the requirements that the character must be able to cast third level spells. Not have a third level spell-like ability.
*shrug* For the vast amount of the prestige classes, the 'philosophical point' seems to be to offer an inferior option to continuing on with your base class. If early access makes them more attractive or more viable I'm all for it. Myself, I'd rather see more things done to make prestige classes more attractive than think about taking things away that already do that.
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Creative Director
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Which is, in my opinion, breaking the philosophical point of the nature of the prestige class...A fairly recent FAQ has determined that SLAs do count for stuff like this and arcane strike.What makes any of you think that a Spell-like Ability qualifies as a spell? It does not. It clearly states In the requirements that the character must be able to cast third level spells. Not have a third level spell-like ability.
What on earth does this even mean? Since when did classes have a "philosophical point"?
As things stand, with the change, things like the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight make potentially decent choices. Remove it and they go back to being traps for the unwary.
What it means is that I disagree with the FAQ that spell-like abilities should qualify for spell requirements, since they're not spells. They're spell-like. The "philosophical" element is that I've always felt prestige classes should be, well, prestigious. They should be things you work your way into, and, for example, using an aasimar's daylight spell-like ability to qualify for a class at 1st level or whatever feels like cheating to me, and diminishes the prestige of the class.
(Whether or not a prestige class is a "trap" or not [I personally don't feel like they are] isn't something I'm really interested in arguing.)
That's all. I should have appended my standard, "Here's how I see it but you should play the game you want" disclaimer to my comment, I suppose.
Is being a waste of time a "philosophical point"?
What it means is that I disagree with the FAQ that spell-like abilities should qualify for spell requirements, since they're not spells. They're spell-like. The "philosophical" element is that I've always felt prestige classes should be, well, prestigious. They should be things you work your way into, and, for example, using an aasimar's daylight spell-like ability to qualify for a class at 1st level or whatever feels like cheating to me, and diminishes the prestige of the class.
(Whether or not a prestige class is a "trap" or not [I personally don't feel like they are] isn't something I'm really interested in arguing.)
That's all. I should have appended my standard, "Here's how I see it but you should play the game you want" disclaimer to my comment, I suppose.
I remember back in 3.5 my group and I would plan out our characters well in advance for what prestige classes we wanted to play. We put in quite a bit of effort and had fun when we finally qualified. We even talk and email each other about new builds or interesting combos.
Since we started play Pathfinder we haven't even so much as mentioned prestige classes in the last several years. I'm not certain if it stems from burnout on prestige classes or the fact that pathfinder classes are better designed than the 3.5 versions.
However, I do feel that the prestige classes of Pathfinder don't feel, well, prestigious. It's probably because the base classes are so much stronger now that thy take quite a bit of the wind out the sails of prestige classes. Though I will admit quite a few prestige classes do feel like they're just not strong enough to bother with.
This is just my two cents though and that's not worth much.
The FAQ claims but does not actually state that SLAs would let you enter the prestige class early. Specifically,
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
I don't have a problem with this part, even though it's a fast and loose interpretation of "cast." I accept that you might "cast" dimension door as a spell-like ability. However,
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
That doesn't really follow. Their "awareness" does not actually seem to reflect the above at all, because "the ability to cast third level spells" does not simply "can cast dimension door" but actually means, has the spellcasting ability. so even though they claim they broke open Eldritch Knight, I consider it a separate (and even more questionable) clarification.
The main problem with this FAQ is that it rolls back ancient 3e-era rulings like, "triggering a magic item isn't casting a spell," and so forth.
Because technically, if all "cast a spell" means is "this spell happens," why not UMD?
I think complete Arcane did a much better job of delineating spells, spell-like abilities, and things that produce spells but aren't spellcasting.
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What it means is that I disagree with the FAQ that spell-like abilities should qualify for spell requirements, since they're not spells. They're spell-like. The "philosophical" element is that I've always felt prestige classes should be, well, prestigious. They should be things you work your way into, and, for example, using an aasimar's daylight spell-like ability to qualify for a class at 1st level or whatever feels like cheating to me, and diminishes the prestige of the class.
I understand your point of view and I could even agree with it if prestige classes actually felt prestigious. This isn't 3.5 where they where awesome.
(Whether or not a prestige class is a "trap" or not [I personally don't feel like they are] isn't something I'm really interested in arguing.)
Again, I can understand this but you have to understand that this in part and parcel of your statement from before. For it to be a 'cheat' you have to feel that it's 'prestigious'. I thing trying to get people to agree with that would be a daunting task. I think that if you had a poll "Do prestige classes feel prestigious", you'd be surprised with the replies.
That's all. I should have appended my standard, "Here's how I see it but you should play the game you want" disclaimer to my comment, I suppose.
That's cool. To each their own. Just pointing out that I (and a lot of others from what I've read) wouldn't agree. I'd hope you'll keep us in mind when you review the SLA FAQ and and prestige classes and any changes to them.
Eldritch Knight was originally designed with the assumption that an EK's tenth level ability would hit at around 16th level. If that's not a problem, EK was not built strong enough, especially in a everyone-gets-something-every-level world, but I suspect it actually is a problem. Even with standard prereqs, a EK is on par with the Magus, and actually, I prefer EKs, vastly, for their durability and their lack of reliance on full-round actions.
Duelist actually does read like the first ten levels of a base class, and that is a problem for Duelist.
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As things stand, with the change, things like the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight make potentially decent choices. Remove it and they go back to being traps for the unwary.
Considering that even without the FAQ ruling, a "core only" eldritch knight can end up with +17 BAB and 17 levels of wizard spell progression (wizard 6/[fighter or ranger] 1/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8; 9th-level spells) or +17 BAB and 16 levels of sorcerer spell progression, plus increases to Str and natural armor ([barbarian, fighter, paladin, or ranger] 2/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10; 8th-level spells), calling them a "trap" is pretty misleading. Also, consider a paladin 8/bard 4/mystic theurge 8; +15 BAB (+11 at 12th character level) and 4th-level spells from both bard and paladin lists (both using Cha). Look, a paladin that can cast heroism and haste, as well as the normal bless weapon and divine favor, while wearing a mithral breastplate and (possibly) using Bardic Performance (a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls that stacks with the +2 morale bonus from heroism and the +3 luck bonus from divine favor) while Smiting Evil (untyped +Cha mod to attack rolls against an evil foe).
"Traps?" In your opinion, maybe. Possibly from a hardcore CharOps mindset of not being the absolute "best build."
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Well thank you, I was unaware of the FAQ.
I can state for sure that no such rule exists in my world, ha. Last thing I want is to switch every aasamir in my world into EKs.
I do wonder two things though:
1) so when the human wizard 5 / fighter 1 finally qualifies and takes EK at 7 he will have CL of 5 and BAB of 4 and the aasamir wizard 1 / fighter 1 / EK 5 (same casting for comparison) will have CL 5 and BAB 6, 6D10 HP compared to 2D10, and will have weapon spec because he counts as a 6th level fighter too. Why have the developers not already seen the power difference here?
2) does daylight here even count as an arcane spell? I mean it's on both arcane and divine spell lists and considering aasamir blood it makes more sense that a divine source grants the power. I guess there are just so many assumptions.
Well anyway thanks for calling my attention to the FAQ.
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I am kinda unhappy with the whole SLA/early entry mess. On one hand it is nice to be able to use prestige classes again. On the other hand now they are locked behind the SLA wall. Aasimar, Tiefling and Half-Drow are way way too good to be considered balanced against the core races. The Scryer subschool, Trickery domain and Wood mystery were pulled from obscurity to become go to options for Mystic Theurges, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters. It creates a disconnect for me in that some not very useful options unlock power. It is the same disconnect with requiring awful feats to get into a prestige class. If I want to create something so connected to the campaign that the base classes aren't specific enough, I shouldn't be stuck with Half-Elf Syndrome from 2nd ed. I would also like some design support for prestige classes that are supposed to give you the capstone at 11th level which is around when the base classes get them (you can say they come at 20, but I mean the real good stuff like Pounce, Teleportation, Returning people to life, Altering memories, Crippling Strike, Dazing Fireballs, etc...)
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The "philosophical" element is that I've always felt prestige classes should be, well, prestigious.
For many prestige classes, prestige can and should be a part. However, I would argue that for the most part Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge just create analogues of old 2e multiclasses, Fighter/Mage and Mage/Cleric. I don't feel that "Eldritch Knight" has a sudden moment of increased prestige when they enter the class, they just continue what they were doing but level their abilities at a different rate. So the question, then, is pretty much just one of mechanics, which people are arguing (and I agree) are better this way.
I'll agree that using an SLA to get in is weird. It is a mechanic a new player will never be aware of on their own. It is narratively weird, since even if one argues the race is "inherently magical" and thus should enter faster being even "more magical" with a higher level SLA might prevent you from doing so. Similarly, as Gregory Connolly said, it encourages forced choices even with no thematic or mechanical link beyond this obscure ruling.
Ideally then, I would hope the FAQ gets changed while the actual requirements on the classes get lowered. This would fix the weirdness while preserving the mechanical change. I know Paizo prefers not to do this to books. However, changing the prerequisites of core prestige classes is not unprecedented, as in the case of removing the "Elf or Half-Elf" prerequisite from the Arcane Archer (as a certain someone advocated). Even if we have to wait until the 7th printing, it is a change that would seem to satisfy all parties.
What ^ that guy said.
If you wanted prestige classes to feel prestigious, you probably should have made them viable to take. There is a reason you almost never see any prestige classes in play and it's because they're pretty terrible and have requirements usually based around taking awful feats.
I can only think of one prestige class build (EK archer) that actually performs well enough to even play one. I can think of another that might be okay to play (MT) in certain campaigns.
Not sure if you've seen the new prestige classes, but all the prestige classes in Inner Sea Gods (Evangelist, Exemplar, Sentinel) are worthy offerings. I have a Wizard/Evangelist in the making right now, actually.
Personally I'd welcome an errata that eased the requirements for the classes in question and backtrack on the "SLA counts as spells" thing.
A lot of GMs (including the GM in a game I play in, before I showed him the FAQ and explained the reasoning) will houserule that SLA=spells doesn't work because it's counter-intuitive (want to mix cleric and wizard? Better pick one of these four races) and "sidesteps" class requirements rather than fulfilling them.
I understand that it "gets the job done", but it's an ugly fix.
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Director of Rules & Lore
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I thought that the Eldritch Knight class became pretty much obsolete after the Magus showed up. Is there something I missed or is it just a personal preference.
They're really pretty much two totally different things. EK can squeeze real casting out while having martial options to fall back on, Magus uses a limited spell list but manages to successfully combine both casting and martial combat instead of doing more of a one or the other kind if deal like the EK.
The magus ended any reasons to play a melee EK, but the EK is the only viable caster/archer in the game. The magus version of an archer loses so much as to not be worth taking IMO.
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Director of Rules & Lore
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Well thank you, I was unaware of the FAQ.
I can state for sure that no such rule exists in my world, ha. Last thing I want is to switch every aasamir in my world into EKs.
I do wonder two things though:
1) so when the human wizard 5 / fighter 1 finally qualifies and takes EK at 7 he will have CL of 5 and BAB of 4 and the aasamir wizard 1 / fighter 1 / EK 5 (same casting for comparison) will have CL 5 and BAB 6, 6D10 HP compared to 2D10, and will have weapon spec because he counts as a 6th level fighter too. Why have the developers not already seen the power difference here?
They did see it, they just decided it wasn't a big deal since prestige classes are widely considered subpar options. Pretty sure there's even a dev quote floating around somewhere that uses those exact words.
Basically it doesn't matter that an aasimar can be a better EK, because being an EK isn't particularly good in the first place.***Edit***
It's actually right in the FAQ itself where they say that since PrCs are suboptimal choices they're basically okay with some races being a little bit better.
It's actually right in the FAQ itself where they say that since PrCs are suboptimal choices they're basically okay with some races being a little bit better.
Yep, it's clear that whoever wrote that didn't think they where very prestigious...
Which is, in my opinion, breaking the philosophical point of the nature of the prestige class...A fairly recent FAQ has determined that SLAs do count for stuff like this and arcane strike.What makes any of you think that a Spell-like Ability qualifies as a spell? It does not. It clearly states In the requirements that the character must be able to cast third level spells. Not have a third level spell-like ability.
What on earth does this even mean? Since when did classes have a "philosophical point"?
As things stand, with the change, things like the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight make potentially decent choices. Remove it and they go back to being traps for the unwary.
What it means is that I disagree with the FAQ that spell-like abilities should qualify for spell requirements, since they're not spells. They're spell-like. The "philosophical" element is that I've always felt prestige classes should be, well, prestigious. They should be things you work your way into, and, for example, using an aasimar's daylight spell-like ability to qualify for a class at 1st level or whatever feels like cheating to me, and diminishes the prestige of the class.
(Whether or not a prestige class is a "trap" or not [I personally don't feel like they are] isn't something I'm really interested in arguing.)
That's all. I should have appended my standard, "Here's how I see it but you should play the game you want" disclaimer to my comment, I suppose.
I agree, I always felt prestige classes should be prestigious or relevant story wise (like joining a group giving you access to their specialist abilities, like hell knights or gray gardeners) I just was pointing out what people were taking about. My first experience with prestige classes was KotOR 2, and three fact that only the main character could take one read significant to me. I personally don't like people using the loophole at my table and prefer some dedication (story wise) and reason for taking the prestige class.