Contingency + Create Undead= Raising yourself?


Rules Questions


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Hey gang,

I see Contingency gets a lot of love on the boards because it provides a great "last-line of defense" and flexibility when things go wrong.

For the pessimistic, necromantic caster, there's another use that I've been thinking of and I'm wondering if it's legit rules wise.

You're going into a fight very likely to end in your death, but not being a quitter, you don't want that to get in the way. Or maybe you're about to be lynched as the masses storm your cabin in the woods after words of your "experiments" on the farmer down the road has gotten out.

Could you cast Contingency, with the trigger being that when you die, Create Undead kicks in and you rise as a powerful undead, possibly with class levels?


With a quick look I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. You might want to specify a delay so your killers have time to pass on, and be sure that the contingency is set to delay until night to cast (Create Undead can only be cast at night).

You would have to pay for the material component each time you recast it though.


Lol! This is actually, brilliant! I'm going to do some research now on this very thing for my Druid/Cleric in a Way of the Wicked game I'm playing.


Paulicus wrote:

With a quick look I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. You might want to specify a delay so your killers have time to pass on, and be sure that the contingency is set to delay until night to cast (Create Undead can only be cast at night).

You would have to pay for the material component each time you recast it though.

But don't you see how awesome it is if you do it right away? "MUAHAHAHAHA! You beat me in my mortal form, now face me in my true IMMORTAL form!!" And watch the peasants s%*+ their pants as you start drinking them dry as the awesome vampire you just turned into :D (Good tip on the delay untill nightfall though)


Seems legit and potentially awesome! Costs some loot each time you cast it, but that shouldn't be too prohibitive by that level.


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Seems legit and potentially awesome! Costs some loot each time you cast it, but that shouldn't be too prohibitive by that level.

Just a warning though... Your GM might steal this idea, because theatrically it seems completely awesome to use on the BBEG arcane caster.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

To save some money, maybe you should arrange to be killed as soon as you cast the Contingency spell....


i'm just thinking of awesomprksto play on the party pally especially if you're a cleric with that not-evil undead thing.


It would suck if your enemy were smart enough to destroy your corpse, which is a regular practice in my party for any spell casters we kill.

No one likes someone coming back. Usually using animate dead is the preferred method. Turn their corpse into a mindless undead. It blocks raise dead, resurrection, and reincarnation from working, and would block this as well.

We don't frak around and we don't underestimate casters.


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Claxon wrote:

It would suck if your enemy were smart enough to destroy your corpse, which is a regular practice in my party for any spell casters we kill.

No one likes someone coming back. Usually using animate dead is the preferred method. Turn their corpse into a mindless undead. It blocks raise dead, resurrection, and reincarnation from working, and would block this as well.

We don't frak around and we don't underestimate casters.

Oh wauw. That reminds me of Legacy of Fire.

Spoiler alert. If you haven't already played this AP and/or plan to as a player, then don't open this spoiler:
Legacy of Fire Spoiler:
The last boss in the AP has to be killed and then have his weird experiment ruined by a wish spell... The group I was in knew nothing about it, even though the plot does hint at it, we were oblivious. We simply hated the BBEG enough that we trapped his soul and traveled to city of brass where we gifted the gem to the Sultan because we had heard he was angry with the BBEG aswell. We also used a wish on him never returning AND an extra wish on his experiment to fail... The GM looked stunned when we did that because he knew we had overlooked the clue. We simply told him that we were so angry with him that killing him wasn't enough. We had to stomp and piss on his ashes. Can you say vindictive characters?


You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.


Wouldn't something like a Skeletal Champion retain class levels? For example, it retains class skills, meaning it has a class, and it wouldn't have class skills if it didn't have a class. As well, HD from class levels are retained. So they kill the squishy wizard necromancer, then the skeleton tears itself from the flesh and begins reaping revenge on the ignorant folk, then the dead townsfolk corpses get drafted into the undead legion.

Sure it's a niche situation, but how cool would it be as a back-up plan? Would you then be able to pursue lichdom ? If so, you'd now have so much freetime as being already undead not having to eat or sleep, or leave your private research lab, the years and years it would take would pose no problem.


Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

Bahhh! Why did you have to go and ruin a perfectly good idea with such lame stuff as rules? :P

In all fairness I thought vampire was on the create undead list. Now that Mojorat has made me realise that it isn't I guess I will have to find another way to get the same effect... As I was planning to use it as a GM I guess I could simply let the BBEG invent a ritual that could turn him into a vampire once he was killed and night had fallen.


Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

Create Undead With an example of juju zombie & skeletal champion Paizo disagrees with you. But it creates different kind of problem: "You must have a caster level greater than the HD of the undead to be created."

How you can have more caster level than your HD? I can only think about Orange Ioun Stone, but there must be something else.

Idea definitely stolen for wizard NPC in my campaign :D


You could be a Wildblooded Arial sorcerer and cast it in the rain.


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Mikhail wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

Create Undead With an example of juju zombie & skeletal champion Paizo disagrees with you. But it creates different kind of problem: "You must have a caster level greater than the HD of the undead to be created."

How you can have more caster level than your HD? I can only think about Orange Ioun Stone, but there must be something else.

Idea definitely stolen for wizard NPC in my campaign :D

Well...you could always make the undead 1hd lower than you, sure, not as powerful, but you are cheating death and coming back.


Mikhail wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

Create Undead With an example of juju zombie & skeletal champion Paizo disagrees with you. But it creates different kind of problem: "You must have a caster level greater than the HD of the undead to be created."

How you can have more caster level than your HD? I can only think about Orange Ioun Stone, but there must be something else.

Idea definitely stolen for wizard NPC in my campaign :D

Since skeletal champion gives you additional HD, you'll need even more than the orange ioun stone. Maybe death knell and the orange combined.


Would Death Knell spell, Gifted Adept trait, and the orange ioun stone all stack? If so, you're at +3 CL, lets say you're a level 15 wizard, you need to be able to have it greater than 17 because of the +2 from skeletal champion, with those three you're at CL 18 and thus, raise yourself from the dead as your own avenging undead champion.


Mikhail wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

Create Undead With an example of juju zombie & skeletal champion Paizo disagrees with you. But it creates different kind of problem: "You must have a caster level greater than the HD of the undead to be created."

How you can have more caster level than your HD? I can only think about Orange Ioun Stone, but there must be something else.

Idea definitely stolen for wizard NPC in my campaign :D

Well I try not to use 3rd party resources as a basis for rules discussions. The skeletal champion entry never says what spell is neeses but implies similar powee ro ghosts.

The prd lists 4 undead only one of which is implied to retain class levels (the mummy) there are some golarion specific lore related to ghouls and lazarite for keeping class levels but that's setting specific.


Using a miracle or wish spell might have the effect you want. The BBEG could have it on a scroll, or just be that powerful. Heck you could chain multiple wishes or miracles.


That sounds awesome, lol.

Makes me wonder, tho, what if we go other way. Does Enervating yourself to get -3 levels will make you get -3 HD so you can rise yourself as Skeletal Champion? What about something that gives permanent levels?


Negative levels do not change your hd. Itdoesnt explicitly name it but its likely you need create greater undead for skel champion.


Quote:
The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed.

Does it make you treated as lower HD tho?


Those negative levels probably vanish once you're dead.

I like the idea behind this thread :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Since skeletal champion gives you additional HD, you'll need even more than the orange ioun stone. Maybe death knell and the orange combined.

Don't forget Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy) for another +1 to your CL for Create Undead.


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Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

JuJu Zombies are the bomb, yo.

Ehy keep class levels and are immune to Magic Missile and doesn't afraid of anything.

Mojorat wrote:


The prd lists 4 undead only one of which is implied to retain class levels (the mummy) there are some golarion specific lore related to ghouls and lazarite for keeping class levels but that's setting specific.

Prd, mate.

You have to look in books besides Core. Bestiary 2 is not exactly some obscure setting book.


Mojorat wrote:
Mikhail wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
You know none of the undead in create undead except maybe mummy retain class levels.

Create Undead With an example of juju zombie & skeletal champion Paizo disagrees with you. But it creates different kind of problem: "You must have a caster level greater than the HD of the undead to be created."

How you can have more caster level than your HD? I can only think about Orange Ioun Stone, but there must be something else.

Idea definitely stolen for wizard NPC in my campaign :D

Well I try not to use 3rd party resources as a basis for rules discussions. The skeletal champion entry never says what spell is neeses but implies similar powee ro ghosts.

The prd lists 4 undead only one of which is implied to retain class levels (the mummy) there are some golarion specific lore related to ghouls and lazarite for keeping class levels but that's setting specific.

theres a teifling trait that raises your CL on evil spells, and another trait that raises cl on darkness spells

There's at least three feats that bring CL up, bloatmage initiate/spell focus/spell specialzation


dot


I love this thread!

I did something similar as a "cheaty" GM when I had a necromancer who'd convinced a cleric to throw a Raise Dead on his Contingency. (Totally illegal, but it fit with the story at the time.)

Unfortunately, the party found an allied silver dragon.

The Raise Dead went off while the necromancer was in the dragon's claws.

Not the best cheating Contingency I've ever used...

So yeah. "Don't bring me back until after dark. Don't bring me back after the peasants have thrown me in the furnace."
A few little tips and tidbits you might want to add to that contingency...


I have seen and heard of way worse "Cheatty" GMs... One had a BBEG who had twelve underlings that were all clerics. They each used shield other on him and then they used other spells to sit comfortably inside the stone floor... Whenever the party damaged the BBEG the damage got split out, and the underlings would then heal themselves... Made for one TOUGH AS BRICKS BBEG.

Dark Archive

I thought ghouls could have class levels?


Many undead can have class levels but I would guess that you lose them unless there is a template you can add over top of your character.


I do believe you'd forget your spell column due to dying, would you not? Might impede your ability to get a great advantage out of this in combat.

Otherwise, sounds like a great idea.


brad2411 wrote:

I thought ghouls could have class levels?

They can, but most undead (including ghouls), even intelligent ones, lose their current class levels when they're turned undead.

So a Rogue 5 who is turned into a ghoul becomes a Ghast, but then can start over at Rogue 1 if he so chooses.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Claxon wrote:

It would suck if your enemy were smart enough to destroy your corpse, which is a regular practice in my party for any spell casters we kill.

No one likes someone coming back. Usually using animate dead is the preferred method. Turn their corpse into a mindless undead. It blocks raise dead, resurrection, and reincarnation from working, and would block this as well.

We don't frak around and we don't underestimate casters.

Given what the OP says he wants to do, the result would be that he would be coming back as a mindless undead and all the other stuff you mentioned would come into play.


LazarX wrote:
Claxon wrote:

It would suck if your enemy were smart enough to destroy your corpse, which is a regular practice in my party for any spell casters we kill.

No one likes someone coming back. Usually using animate dead is the preferred method. Turn their corpse into a mindless undead. It blocks raise dead, resurrection, and reincarnation from working, and would block this as well.

We don't frak around and we don't underestimate casters.

Given what the OP says he wants to do, the result would be that he would be coming back as a mindless undead and all the other stuff you mentioned would come into play.

I think he means casting animate dead on the caster's body to prevent subsequent reanimations.


Ghoul, Ghast, Mummy, and Mohrg are listed under Create Undead in the CRB.

Undead Revisited adds Attic Whisperer, (Giant) Crawling Hand, Crypt Thing, Draugr, Dullahan, Huecuva, Skeletal Champion, Juju Zombie, and Wight to the Create Undead list.

All the Phantom Armors (including Hollow Helm) are added by Carrion Crown 5 of 6, Ashes at Dawn.

Hungry are the Dead adds Festrog.

All Paizo products.

Both the Juju Zombie and Skeletal Champion are templates that let you keep your previous class levels. It isn't too hard to raise your caster level over you HD.

I like this idea.

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