Aazhog's page

Yeah, not sure how exactly they assumed the value of this item, since it is a +1 weapon, grants the Eschew Materials feat while held and can cast 2 magic missiles in a round... at will? No charges? I can't seem to find the rules for even doing that in the magic item construction :P

I think this one was a goof as all the other weapons in the section that have spells/spell like abilities, can use them 1/day.

Considering that a simple casting of a single first level spell, Shield, is all it would take to reduce the staff to a complete non-factor? I think the cost to game impact is pretty reasonable.

Where are you getting that quote from? I'm getting mine from the Core Rule Book, the quote is as follows:

www.d20pfsrd.com

Specifically:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-

which reads:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

Edit: And actually, re-reading that entry (mostly for spelling but that's not really relevant) I can see where I over-looked the explicit statement regarding the SLA functioning as per the spell description. Good catch.

I know how summons work, but thank you. My point is that you are choosing to read the SLA of a Pit Fiend’s summon as if it were identical in mechanic to Summon Monster. It is not a summon spell. It is a SLA that causes an effect similar to the spell you are quoting. What I read, and I’ll grant you that opinions vary, is the quote you and I appear to agree on with SLA’s.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity.

What I read there is that unless it’s otherwise noted in the Pit Fiend’s block, it functions as a standard action. There are no such notes in the Pit Fiend’s block to my recollection.

As I said, we obviously have a difference of opinion. I’m curious as to how it would be ruled at your table. But rather than fence over semantics, I’ll leave it at that.

With the summoning, it takes one round to summon anything, so I can easily get in his face and disrupt the summon. If he used wish to get off a quickened summon, the incoming summon would be weak (It'd be on par with a summon monster 4), and I could take it down in one round. So, I always figured the summoning route wasn't the best for the pit fiend in a one on one fight.

It takes him one standard action yeah. Not a full round action, if that's what your talking about. How do you get in his face and disrupt it exactly? Pit Fiends SLA summon is a mental/thought action that summons 1 Devil (any type) up to CR 19, 100% of the time.

Is there any particular variable to stop the Pit Fiend from summoning in perhaps a Gylou Devil, who has constant true sight to handle the nasty business of locating you, perhaps grappling you, and presenting you a pretty difficult choice about which Devil has to go?

Edit: On second thought why not a Puragaus (Immolation Devil) who again, has a constant true sight? If you're taking a couple of rounds to buff is there anything to summoning in the Immolation Devil on round one, and on round two the Immolation Devil subsequently summoning in 2d4 oh I dunno, Erinyes who likewise, have constant true sight in effect?

Edit #2: I'm a fool. I forgot the Immolation Devil wouldn't have access to it's own summon for an hour. The rest pretty much still remains.

You said no 5' step, I agreed and went a step further to say that someone engaged in Melee should be able to follow their foe.

That's how I see melee combat, dynamic and fluid. If your opponent tries to withdraw, you either shank him from behind or you stick to him.

With respect, I’m not at all saying that “no 5 foot rule” is a good direction whatsoever to go. Or that there shouldn’t be feats like Step-up to allow you to pursue and close on a tactical flight from combat.

To clarify, all I’m saying at core, is that 5 foot steps ought to provoke AoO’s, unless you make a simple acrobatics check. An errata amendment like that brings so much to the table. Realistically it makes sense. It brings utility and merit to acrobatics across the character gambit, affects in-combat decision making applied to positioning, calls into play things like Defensive Withdraws, and increases the attraction of feats like Mobility, and just plays more stream-lined and liquid to me.

To completely remove 5 foot steps, and no offense whatsoever to any that play that way, to me is just as poorly thought out. Without positioning/flight options, why is any PC or NPC ever going to do anything but fight to the death?

I just think the mechanics of 5 foot steps needs some attention.

I'd personally prefer to go the other way. Rather than illogically pinning characters in place while their opponent is free to move about the battlefield, I'd prefer to see actions and reactions in play.

If you move away from someone with whom you were engaged in melee combat, they have the choice to either cut you while you flee OR pursue. No feats required.

Not even remotely close to what I said. But I digress.

The mechanics of 5 foot stepping in melee.

It makes absolutely no sense to me that if I am locked in melee with someone that I can commit to some form of attack or spellcasting and then just disengage 5 feet with impunity. Combat can (and has) at times devolved into a flurry of mathematical chess in 5 foot increments at the cost of blowing any chance at a more realistic flow to combat positioning.

If melee ensues and you want to 5 foot step ring-around-the-rosey you ought to provoke AoO unless you employ acrobatics checks in the same manner as moving through threatened squares at any other time. Its reflective of the fact that while you may wish to disengage, it comes with inherent dangers and exposure to acceptable risk to achieve that positioning. (fyi: Yes I know about Step-up, but really? A feat?) An angry dog still pursues a movement in combat even if it’s never been to a fancy war college.

For what it’s worth, we adopted this change as a house-rule and it works very nicely at our table for our needs. A quick skills check and viola you either win your new position, or don’t.

All things considered (and I realize that I’m sort of camped on your thread, I just really love the mental exercise) I would say that the very best way for you to do what you’re trying to do with your ninja is ensure you have the Ranged Flank feat, Snap Shot, and Imp. Snap Shot.

Use poisons (and I can’t stress how important it is to familiarize yourself with the effects of multiple doses of poison on a single target), attack from surprise, like, popping out of stealth, invisibility, or concealment. And live and breathe off of your swift action Vanishing trick to maintain the possibility of just rinse and repeat.

Ranged Flank (Combat)

Even at a distance, you can take advantage of a distracted opponent.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +10.
Benefit: When attacking with ranged or thrown weapons from a distance of up to 30 feet, if the nearest adjacent space to your target is unoccupied and the opposite space is occupied by a threatening ally, you are considered flanking. Both you and your ally gain all the benefits of flanking, including +2 flanking bonus on attacks, rogues can sneak attack, etc.

Normal: Only characters in melee are considered flanking.

The reality is that with limited to no effort there comes a time when invisibility just simply isn’t the answer any longer. Faerie Fire, Invisibility Purge, True Sight all immediately spring to mind as ways that become almost certain for enemies to defeat your efforts at SA dice without feat investments on your part. Maybe you even consider a dip into a class that provides you Blind or Hold Person to kind of pad your bets, but if we’re being honest with ourselves...

There are answers for everything that we can do as players. You cannot ever expect to always do anything. What you have to develop is a sound tactical strategy, be patient and use feats and position to give yourself the best chances to achieve the results that you want, and let the dice determine the rest.

The theory is one of my favorite parts of the game, and for that opportunity thank you!!

Poisoned Sand Tube is a clever idea. Loaded with Tears of Death towards endgame and I could see that setting up a whole bunch of “Bad Day” for people you wanted to take out. Expensive, but certainly interesting.

I didn't even know about this. I'll have to look more into it. Thanks!

Dirty Trick

Source: Advanced Player's Guide.
You can attempt to hinder a foe in melee as a standard action. This maneuver covers any sort of situational attack that imposes a penalty on a foe for a short period of time. Examples include kicking sand into an opponent’s face to blind him for 1 round, pulling down an enemy’s pants to halve his speed, or hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round. The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver, but it cannot be used to impose a permanent penalty, and the results can be undone if the target spends a move action. If you do not have the Improved Dirty Trick feat or a similar ability, attempting a dirty trick provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, the target takes a penalty. The penalty is limited to one of the following conditions:
blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened.

This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action. If you possess the Greater Dirty Trick feat, the penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.

Dirty Trick is only going to be feasible (assuming your emphasis is on sniping) if you use the feat with your melee attacks and then take advantage of it from range. It’s a melee attack specific feat. That said. If you created some chaos with a cloud of some kind, maybe through smokesticks, Smoke Bomb, or Choking Bomb tricks so you could close to melee under concealment, paint a target with Dirty Trick then bail out to pound them with your sniping fire from shuriken?

Labour intensive for sure, but definite flair factor. OTOH you provoke an AoO without Imp. Dirty Trick and all your target has to do is move (unless you chain all the way to Gr. Dirty Trick), you'll have concealed your own target unless you yourself can see through your cloud (assuming you established one to close and use Dirty Trick), and he removes the effect of all that complex maneuvering with a move, or standard action.

Coolio. I like the tactic. Makes for a great way to engender paranoia, especially if the ninja attacks from a crowd.

It does. This NPC using his Master of Disguise even moreso. In his first round his contested disguise check is well over 40, meaning it’s virtually assured that he will surprise the party and start hammering them with surgical effectiveness. Even when (and if) they are able to counter-act behind his virtually assured surprise round, it’s a bustling, busy marketplace. He can dart in and out of concealment and cover, hide and quickly re-establish a NEW disguise to start at all over again with only a 30+ contested check against any new disguise. And a simple Invisibility Purge is no help at all to our bold heroes. He isn’t off-setting anything with magic, he’s just that damned good.

Master of Disguise (Ex)

Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: Once per day, a rogue with this talent gains a +10 bonus on a single Disguise check.

To say nothing of the fact that if things really go poorly he doesn’t just do that crazy Ninja wall climbing stuff and flee or re-position. Should the party panic and scatter senselessly, this guy is going to tear them apart. A good tactical enemy that doesn’t rely on magic for everything and utilizes terrain and tactics is a nightmare.

if there was cover within 10 feet of the target than you would get a sneak attack with the first throw, but other throws will be without sneak attack...

once you step out of cover you no longer have cover so will not do sneak attack UNLESS you can get into cover again but even in this case you would still only get 1 sneak attack throw.
the only way to get multiple sneak attacks is to be flanking or if the target is blind or you have greater invisibility.
there is a way a ninja can do that by taking the ninja vanishing tricks. what you can also do is take the feat dirty trick and blind the target for several rounds of combat than you can do sneak attack all the time.

With respect, this is not a unilaterally true statement. Cover, has little at all to do with SA’s in and of itself, excepting that cover ALLOWS you to make a stealth check. You’re correct to state that once you break from cover you have broken STEALTH, but as that cover and subsequent stealth attack from cover may well lead to surprise, breaking cover does not immediately mean that your opponent is no longer flat-footed UNTIL they have made an action. Which means, by RAW, ALL of your attacks during surprise will qualify for sneak attack dice.

Cover and Stealth Checks

You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.

I cited earlier from RAW why surprise and flanking is crucial to SA effectiveness earlier in this thread but I’ll recite to save time:

The Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Boiled down that means that it doesn’t matter if you can throw 10 shuriken during your surprise actions, it doesn’t matter if you have cover or concealment, are invisible, or in fact standing in the middle of the street wearing a huge sign that says “Ima Ninja” around your neck – If you have fulfilled the situational requirements and mechanics to qualify as having surprised your foe. He is flat-footed and susceptible to SA’s.

In fact, not only are all of your attacks during the surprise round against flat-footed opponents awarded your SA dice, but ALL of your attacks during the first round of combat UNTIL those targets ACT are bolstered by SA’s. That’s not RAI, that’s RAW.

You don’t want to be surprised by a rogue-type. Sneaky fellows OTOH, really want to surprise you, mostly to see what pretty colors you have on the inside.

I've never played Mythic in any way at all so I don't really know if this suggestion will help or not. But Holy Vindicator? Its already been mentioned that amalgamating too much and you end up MAD before you know it. But there's my "have you considered"?

I'd look at the rogue talent to max sa in surprise with the ni ja hidden weapons stuff. Finish it with catch off guard and kill them with melee shuriken.

Can you elaborate a little? I'm curious only because I understand Catch off Guard to apply only to improvised weapons and I'm not sure how that applies. And while I don't know every rule, feat, trait, or alternate feature there is without some research how do you utilize shuriken in melee?

I'm not trying to be discourteous or belittle the post. I'm genuinely curious.

No, but it can pave the way for Helpless. Which effectively applies a DEX 0 (which I think would qualify) to the helpless target and opens them to CdG's.

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

On the topic of sight reliance, you could certainly look at the Ninja trick:

Darkvision (Su): This trick allows the ninja to use her ki to enhance her sight, granting darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. Using this trick is a standard action that costs 1 ki point. The enhanced senses last for 1 hour.

If I'm playing a character like this, and please bear in mind I'm just spit-balling here as well as drawing from some nasty tactics our DM has used in the past on our parties, I'm constantly looking to do several situational things anytime we get into bloodletting as a party.

1. Flanking is my best friend. My feat selection and tactics end up revolving around how I can optimize my useage of flanks for SA dice on top of surprise, or any other situational factors like say grapple that deny my targets their DEX mods and open up my dice pools using SA.

2. If I am playing in a party where poisons are permitted me, I'm looking at carrying a wide variety of them for case-by-case application to assist me in achieving 1. Poisons that cause DEX damage, or paralytics are probably things I take a detailed look at.

3. Admittedly, in my games we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 years of gaming experience among us (6 players at an average of 25 years. Yeah, we're old farts). So we do an awful lot of recon and advance scouting, which lends itself to significant utilitarian use of surprise and prepping for combat.

4. If I'm the ninja my combat preference is to begin stealthed/hidden/invisible/disguised or what have you. I will take my time to maneuver myself into flanking position during combat with my lead in target. Assuming I have been efficient in doing so I break my stealth by sniping from my established position (hopefully with flank at the very least). Regardless of outcome at the end of my attack actions I'll swift action Vanish and then take whatever move actions I'm permitted, be they five foot or full move options depending upon what I've done to that point.

If my target is downed I move on to additional targets. If they are not downed but affected by any poisons I have made use of either a CdG (if its an option) or break my Vanish to rinse and repeat the flat-footed SA conditions. Assuming my ki is there for it re-Vanish. Ill rinse and repeat as necessary my way through the combat.

Now this is all ifs and whens and a heavy ki pool draw certainly. But it certainly places a strong emphasis on the utility of a Ninja's Vanishing trick as a possible staple for maximizing SA's opportunities.

Lol! This is actually, brilliant! I'm going to do some research now on this very thing for my Druid/Cleric in a Way of the Wicked game I'm playing.

So, I assume this is a hit and run sort of tactic? Because Disguise might make a human ninja throwing shuriken at the party look like a dwarven barmaid throwing shuriken at the party, but it won't stop the party from seeing and killing the dwarven barmaid.

In the case of the Ninja I used in the example yes, absolutely. There are a number of factors in that AP encounter and villian that I didn't want to get into in the event it crossed into spoiler territory for anyone.

More than anything I just thought it would be something worth considering for the OP who it appears is looking for ways to maximize their useage of SA dice in combat scenerio like any good precision-damage dealer will.

If I may, I just want to remind you that the requirements for SA dice are not, strictly speaking, reliant upon stealth per say. The critical factor is only that your target needs to be flanked or denied his or her DEX bonus. As long as that requirement is met you can SA to your heart’s content.

If I can offer up a suggestion for you I’d take a long, hard look at the disguise skill to off-set your challenges with stealth. My DM recently brewed up a feature Villian in a Jade Regent AP I’m not actually playing in. His villain is a Ninja with a ridiculously high disguise skill. The Villian, like you, prefers the use of shuriken from range with nunchuks as his melee alternative. The encounter begins with the Ninja Villian disguised and stalking the party in a busy marketplace during mid day. He presented me with a description of the party as the Ninja would see it and asked me what I would do, were I charged with the elimination of the party as this Villian is in his scenario.

Basically, this Ninja (if the PC’s aren’t able to overcome his crazy high disguise), can essentially close well within his optimal throwing range for shurikens, trigger a “surprise round” when and if he chooses to ambush the party. All of this hinging upon contested disguise checks against the party’s perception, and without using stealth at all. The RAW canon on surprise is longer, but this is the section in it that actually matters for the purposes of this post:

The Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

So in the perfect scenario for this Villian he closes within his required throwing distance for shurikens, initiates combat and hopefully surprises most, if not the entire party. Even better still would be for him to win Initiative. If those two elements play out in the Ninja’s favor he can essentially pepper surprised targets with SA dice with impunity for the entirety of the surprise round, and should he win initiative, his turn of the first round of combat.

Until any member of the party has acted, if they were flat-footed at the onset of the surprise round, they remain flat-footed and open to SA’s.

The cool thing about disguise as a tactic is that it’s mechanical, it isn’t trumped by casual magics. It’s literally a straight up contest of skill vs. Party perception rolls. Might be something to consider for yourself as with this kind of a tactic you could initiate surprise, stick a target or two and if you don’t feel comfortable with how things are going - cut and run, or flee briefly into cover or concealment to “stealth up” and re-evaluate your options.

Good luck!

And that's an accurate enough statement. But the slippery slope is in interpretation. You can certainly roll your salvo of dice in any way that you like. But as in the case of Vital Strike, you have to be careful with how you present the math when it comes to multipliers like Vital Stike, or Crit damage effects. And really that I think is the important caveat.

You know, you don't really need a high dex.

The only emphasis I place on DEX at all in a build of this flavor is strictly for initiative adjustments. As a formation breaker, I feel like you want to be proactive rather than reactive. Especially so when you consider that once you get into the midst of your enemies and dropping foes left right and center that there is going to be some form of reactionary counter-effort on the part of your foes.

Securing first actions means that you can ready, or push the issue as opposed to trying to work your best attack sequences behind what your foes might do to thwart them. (read also: setting to receive your charges)

That said, it's a really interesting concept.

Why wouldn't it? Nothing RAW really says anything about it. Since sneak attack doesn't do normal damage. It is damage added because you stabbed in a specific weak point, it could be unaffected by strength. Depending on how you calculate: 1d6-3 +1d6 may not be the same as 2d6-3.

Because I’m not seeing the source of the confusion. The official wording is clear and specific on mechanic:

Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

1. “strike a vital spot for extra damage.” – very clear and specific, the sneak attack dice are a representation of the rogue striking a vulnerable location on his or her target. Visually, it would be like stabbing/slashing/smashing the throat, or the liver, or a lung as example. One way to look at it is that the sneak attack dice are representative of the rogue’s intent and skill with anatomy as a specific part of rogue training. In this case if the weapon base damage is 1d6, and the rogues STR adjustment is -3, and the rogue has 1d6 sneak attack = 1d6-3 (minimum 1) + 1d6.

2. “Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.” – Why? Because a critical effect is only representative of the base weapon’s effect outside of any other relevant factors. This is why functions like keen work the way that they work in expanding critical threat ranges. It is not just a knife, it is a REALLY sharp knife.

3. “A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment” – again, very clear. If the rogue can’t clearly see where to put his attack, he does not get the extra sneak attack dice. This strongly supports again, a conscious effort at weapon location. It gets confusing because people seem to think sneak attack is extra damage, and while technically that’s true – a better way to explain it is that it is extra, situational damage dice outside of the base weapon effects.
.

While this is true by basic rules of math, I'm sure someone will then try to argue that this makes the weapon die 4D6 and therefore they can use vital strike for 8D6 damage, and if you protest, then you just hate martials and while that might be your interpretation, nothing in the rules explicitly says it's not the case so they're right by RAW.

They can try that all that they like, but again (at least the way it reads to me) the official mechanics are clear and concise when cited.

Vital Strike (Combat)

You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

1."you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses." - Just take your time whilst reading the rules. A single attack (meaning that to use this feat you are voluntarily foregoing ANY other attacks that you might have from BAB), roll weapon damage dice twice, apply bonuses. It even specifically mentions precision-based damage (ie. Sneak Attack).

Using our same rogue, Stabby McStabberson, Vital Striking with his weapon damage dice of 1d6, his STR adjustment of -3, and his sneak attack dice of 1d6 = 2d6-3 (minimum 1) + 1d6 against an opponent that is denied their DEX or flanked, and the rogue can clearly see to locate his attack on the target. It is NOT 3d6-3. It is 2d6-3 +1d6.

Interesting. If it were my game I wouldn’t penalize anyone based on the information you’ve offered around the situation. Adventurers (and any cohorts, Animal companions, hirelings, etc) are by their very nature willfully placing themselves in what we’d consider dangerous and possibly life-threatening situations all the time. That’s what they do. They know the risks when they sign on. They accept those risks for any number of reasons.

1. We’re talking about a Bard. A typically second rank, support class. Bard’s make everyone around them better at what they do. The cohort (as a gorilla with class levels in Barb) is a front line smasher who’s job, if you will, is to rush headlong into combat and by virtue of that expose themselves to “mortal peril” each and every time combat takes place. If my tanky front liner dies I don’t look at my healer or other support class and say, “Look at what you did!!”

2. It sounds like the BBEG was going to be challenging regardless of anything the player, and party, might have done. Are you willing to set the precedent that anything short of fleeing by the party was tactically an incorrect decision? And does the Bard own sole responsibility for that decision?

3. And this easily for me could have ended the conversation immediately:

“Maybe "meat shield" was the wrong term, but I feel that he sacrificed himself to let his leader live.”

It’s the word sacrifice that leaps out at me. Sacrifice suggests voluntary choice on the part of the cohort to accept the risk of the situation so that others need not. The fact that you yourself say that that’s what you believe happened suggests to me that your Bard player has no direct personal responsibility attached to the cohorts choice to die so that others might live.

My two cents.

Forgive me, but this isn't a serious question is it?

LOL - that's great.

Where in the campaign are you (without spoiling anything for innocent bystanders)? It'd be interesting to exchange note - I've rewritten many parts of it, adding a little here, taking away a little there. I've had to work to challenge my party, but its a pretty powerful foursome:

Dwarven Cleric of Asmodeus (Madness, Glory-Heroism) playing as a fanatic and leader of the group through bullying and devotion more than his Charisma of 5. Powerful as he is, he'd still be on the run and hiding in ditches if not for his young protege...

Tiefling Paladin of Asmodeus built as a straight up Paladin, merely transpose any 'good' abilities for 'evil' and vice versa. High charisma and serves as the group's face but was all but raised by the Dwarf and feels beholden to him - or would if not for...

Half-Elven Master Summoner, a seductive bon vivant who summons devils and fiendish creatures to serve her capricious whims. There was doubt that she would ever love anyone until she met our Tiefling anti-hero over whom she's become quite infatuated with - much to the dismay of...

Half-Elven Summoner, a brutish woman, half-elven and half-orc, half sister to the Master Summoner above and the one whom determined their course unquestioned before she met the Tiefling. She is all but devoid of humanity, and her closeness with her eidolon goes beyond intimate.

Its been a really great dynamic, the Cleric and the Summoner both classic alphas in their play while the Paladin and the Master Summoner have bonded in such a way that each has found the courage to stand up to their mentors from time to time. Role-play aside, I'm sure you can see how potent those race/class combinations might be if well-built. FWIW, in our games Summoners don't get the Summon Monster SLA and Master Summoners don't get an eidolon. Goes a long way towards balancing the classes.

EDIT: The Tiefling took a level of Oracle when they made their oaths to the Cardinal, choosing the Legalistic curse to go with the Lore mystery to reflect his education at the hands of the Dwarf. The Summoner eventually took a level of Dragoon and often fights astride her eidolon when the terrain favors it.

Lol isn’t it? Oh yeah you have some interesting player development there. Love it. I probably can’t exchange too many notes as I’m actively playing in the AP myself, otherwise I would have loved to!

Elven Cleric, Holy Vindicator of Asmodeus, (Fire, Devil - Evil) A severe and manipulative woman by all accounts with a penchant for uproariously funny quips she doesn’t intend (at least to us as players). She is nothing short of a zealot in her dedication to the Church of Asmodeus. And may or may not (depending upon which day and who is discussing it with her) have cut herself a deal for a stay of execution in exchange for damning information about certain other PCs guilt/crimes at the outset of the AP. Her claim to fame aside from the kool-aide commentary was during the party’s flight from Brandescar she whilst - employing a captured shortbow she wasn’t proficient with - immediately crit a tower guard and ended him with a neck shot, to which she offered, “That was just a warning shot!”

Half-orc Wild Shape (Lion Shaman) Druid/Cleric of Ayrzul, (Earth – Metal, Destruction – Rage, Strength – Ferocity) A massive “man” completely unconcerned with social interactions beyond “Can we kill this now?” sorts of engagements. It was heinous banditry and murder that landed him in chains. The only member of the group that truly holds little to no real invested companionship for his Knot-mates whom he considers weaklings by orcish standards (to the exclusion of the Ninja who’s efficiency at murder at least bears his grudging respect), he was pressed into indentured servitude to the Church when he refused the offered contract, was summarily pounded into unconsciousness by Tiadora, and his life spared only at the behest of his now companions who admired his combat resilience during their escape. He considers himself to owe them some convoluted life debt, and he’ll crack skulls for the Asmodeans until he manages to repay it. Then he plans to plot his escape from the pact.

Human Anti-paladin of Asmodeus, The only real obvious shock trooper in the bunch. He has some sort of weird, hedonistic lust-affair with the party Witch and the Asmodean Cleric that no one else in the Knot can seem to understand. Not that the women reciprocate, unless it’s to manipulate him to their collective whims with a dangling, romantic promise they never intend to fulfill. He was duped into Fall by that same Witch and used in an arson attempt upon a Mitran Cathedral that didn’t succeed as planned. The bulk of the group believes and justifies his obsession as being elf-struck.

Aasimar Wizard/Sorceror, Part-time Pyromaniac, full-time ladies man in his own mind. Except it is somewhat hard to argue with his many conquests. Sadly, most of his play-things don’t survive the trysts. The face of the party largely because he can’t seem to let anyone else get a word in edge-wise. When he’s not extolling his many virtues and insights, as seen by himself, he is jealously cloistered away with his books, or his concubines. One of which is the party cohort. He’s a schemer and over-planner and almost compulsive OCD micro-manager. His strategic plan A’s might actually bear fruit, if only the Anti-paladin and Druid’s thirst for glorious blood-letting didn’t continually shatter his complex efforts at puppet-mastery brand evil.

Sylph Witch, In a party where Divine magic is so prevalent you wouldn’t expect her to be the most active healer in the Knot. But she is. She abhors placing herself in harm’s way, all too happy to let her heavy armor wearing “Lovelies” handle the rough stuff while she hangs back tossing Hexes and Cackling away to maximize the brutes’ efforts at slaughter. Her ultimate goal is to establish and keystone a Coven where she can freely work her foul magics to her little black heart’s content. She has a very particular and intense hatred for the Mitran theocracy, for reasons she refuses to indulge. Likely it has something to do with stakes and firestarters. Quick to answer threats, real or imagined, with the might of her boy-toy “love interest” she thirsts insatiably for power in all its many forms.

Drow Elven Ninja, A master of both poisons and the bow, she’s the haunt in the night when direct frontal assault isn’t possible or recommended. Every party needs its scout, reconnaissance, and assassin and this quiet woman plays the part with frightening efficiency. She has no particular qualms about why’s or whatfors – only murder for hire and profit. She was a remorseless slave trader before she was brought low. And while she was only posing as a soldier to complete an assassination they tacked Desertion onto her list of many sins. Not that she needed it.

Wiggz: It's an awesome AP, I have probably had more fun playing that than any other in recent memory. I don't have any doubt that a co-operative party with mature players that understand that playing together regardless of alignment is the way to go. And ultimately that's why we all game together with our regular friends. But if you ever had a worry, not much beats the legalese handcuffs of Devil's and their paperwork. ;)

To quote the Asmodean cleric in our party when presented with the contract, "No problem, I've been drinking the kool-aide for years."

The game I primarily focus on (and enjoy most) at the moment is Way of the Wicked. We have 6 players and a cohort in our party all of varying evil alignments. In that campaign we had any and all concerns assuaged right out of the gate after escaping the prison we all met in whilst awaiting our much deserved executions at the hands of the “holy rollers” that had apprehended us. The main Plot Device villain/Overseer, an Asmodean Cardinal forced us all to sign a Fiendish Pact that all but ensured that there’d be no whacked out wolves-falling-upon-one-another antics out of us as a whole. It covered everything from the usual back-stabbery and double dealing to fair and equal loot distribution. No one has tested it so far.

Alright. Well, as I mentioned I’m by no means a Warpriest Savant but here’s a possibility.

Half-orc Warpriest of any God that allows for Strength Blessing, and War Blessing (In this mock up I ran thru Hero Lab I just went with the orcish Blood God for flavour). Human is certainly viable for the extra feat, but I end up returning to Orc Ferocity and fall in love all over again. Considering that I will have access to 6th level spells and Heal I’m even more inclined to place emphasis on Orc Ferocity, or possibly Die Hard if you went Human.

Strength Blessing

Strength of Will: At 10th level, as a swift action you can ignore the movement penalties from wearing medium or heavy armor (or carrying a medium or heavy load) for 1 minute. During this time, you may add your Strength bonus on your saving throws against effects that would paralyze or slow you.

Strength surge: At 1st level, as a swift action you gain an enhancement bonus equal to half your Warpriest level (minimum +1) to melee attacks, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength based skills, and Strength checks for one round.

War Blessing

Battle Lust: At 10th level, as a standard action you can touch an ally to grant it a thirst for battle. All of the ally’s melee attacks are treated as if they had the vicious special weapon property, but the extra damage dealt to the ally from that property is non-lethal. In addition, the ally receives a +4 insight bonus on attack rolls made to confirm critical hits. These benefits last for 1 minute.

War Mind: At 1st level, as a standard action you can touch an ally to grant it a tactical advantage for 1 minute. Each round at the start of its turn, it can select one of the following bonuses: +10 feet to base land speed, +1 dodge bonus to AC, +1 insight bonus on attack rolls, or a +1 bonus on saving throws.

Now, admittedly this is my first examination of the Warpriest in any great detail. I would likely ask my DM what constitutes an “ally”. If he’s feeling benevolent enough to broaden that designation to include me, I’d probably clap and dance a little. Knowing my DM as I do, I wouldn’t hold my breath so War is certainly interchangeable as you like. Strength Blessing is a must IMHO.

Stat wise, I do need to consider fervor/smite options. So I placed my high stat emphasis on CHA in this build. STR I don’t feel anything less than 16 is acceptable for a CMB rooted character concept, and I’ll have a ton of options through Enlarge effects and buffs to easily push me into somewhere around 27 strength by endgame, providing that I place at least one stat bump (probably my first) into this ability score, DEX becomes of importance to me almost exclusively for the Initiative modifiers (as I’m going to want full plate armor) and I’m going to want to ready Rhino Charge as an lead-in options at endgame, as well as ensure that I get into my foes before they can scatter and reduce my overall Cleave, Cleaving Finish effectiveness. WIS, I probably don’t need higher than 12, IF I dedicate what remain of my stat bumps exclusively into that stat. CON I can almost call a dump, this build has a relatively good AC, and with Heals as 6th level spells I’m not too concerned about taking a great deal of damage, particularly if I’m reading Sacred Armor correctly and can pile on a +4 enhancement bonus that expressly stacks with ANY existing armor bonuses that I already have. INT is my dump. (in my mock up it was 8)

Feat developmentally, I believe there is still merit to pursuing both the Bullrush AND Overrun feat chains all the way to Greater for wide utility on the battlefield. It just flat allows me to again ask what it is I want to be able to do, and as I touched on in the cleric version of this same kind of concept, I believe that when it comes to formation breaking, you want options.

I still take Bullrush and Overrun all the way to Greater, I also take Charge Through, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Imp. Vital Strike, and Bull Rush Strike. Bonus Feat selection I chose was Power Attack, Channel Smite, Imp. Initiative, Imp. Overrun, Rhino Charge (I might call Imp. Cleaving Finish interchangable here), and Awesome Blow (which you easily qualify for when Enlarged in some way, and either Raging or buffed.

1st level feat selection remains Combat Reflexes, and unchanged for me. With the potential for massive AoO trigger off of your later Gr. Bullrush and Gr. Overrun maneuvers, you really want to do what you can to take advantage of those sporadic AoO pings.

At 2nd level it gets a little taste sensitive. I dipped two levels of Barbarian into this mock up, and here’s expressly why: I get Rage, but more importantly, I get the only Rage power that I care about – Overbearing Advance:

Overbearing Advance (Ex)

Benefit: While raging, the barbarian inflicts damage equal to her Strength bonus whenever she succeeds at an overrun combat maneuver.

I don’t weep overmuch for losing Fast Movement, I’m going to be charging a lot at double movement and Boots of Striding and Springing or Longstrider are still no brainers. Now you don’t have to dip at all, and you would gain one additional bonus feat if you placed those two levels towards Warpriest you could possibly use for Imp. Cleaving Finish or Extra Channel or whatever feels right.

My arms and armor changes slightly in that I go for full plate, if I’m rich I’m going to likely consider Unrighteous/Righteous depending on my Diety, and maybe even mithral in addition to enhancement bonuses I’m going to receive in the form of Magic Vestment and Sacred Armor.

I still believe that you have to look at Falchion and buckler for a horde sweeper like this. With my combat options around fervor/smite I’m going to keen my falchion and grayflame is also appealing to me with fervor 13 times/day in this build.

Spell selection and supplemental magics don’t really change an awful lot from the Cleric to Warpriest in my estimation. I’m still buffing, I’m still using Metamagic Rods of Quicken against my buffs if I can’t pre-cast et al.

Oh! I see where I got lost in that case. To be honest, I haven't bothered overmuch with the test classes. I was just talking with my DM last night about the trend Paizo seems to be taking with over-hybridization of classes. Not that there is anything wrong with it I suppose. But if I'm being honest, IMO there are enough class and feat combinations around for a creative and intelligent player to make pretty much anything they want to be able to do without muddying the waters further with what I term "built-in multiclass hybrids". Sorry blackbloodtroll!

If you want, I'm happy to try messing around a little with the Warpriest and seeing if I can make something viable for what it sounds like you're after.

So this was really interesting to me, so I started messing around a little in Hero Lab and playing with this and that. Without asking a bunch of questions about character concept, I just built it in a way that I think would be pretty effective for thinning out piles of mooks employing horde tatics.

Human (Shoanti) Shoanti Shaman Archetype, Cleric of Kostchtchie – I chose Kostchtchie just to get away from the Gorum/Rov love that tends to be default ALL I think is critical in a build of this type is access to the War Domain for Weapon Master at 8th:

Weapon Master (Su): At 8th level, as a swift action, you gain the use of one combat feat for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive and you can change the feat chosen each time you use this ability. You must meet the prerequisites to use this feat.

I probably consider heavily Ferocity as my second domain but that’s certainly not gospel. In the case of this mock up I chose Demon because Fury of the Abyss synergizes nicely with what I’m trying to do:

Fury of the Abyss (Su): As a swift action, you can give yourself an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) on melee attacks, melee damage rolls, and combat maneuver checks. This bonus lasts for 1 round. During this round, you take a –2 penalty to AC. You can use this ability for a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Feat selection at 1st level is simply Combat reflexes (which you will need deeper into the build to optimize AoO’s off of your Bullrushing AND Overrunning (yes, I am suggesting that you work BOTH feat chains to provide a crazy amount of situational utility). I save my bonus feat selection until 2nd when I BAB at +1 for Power Attack, opening myself up to my Combat Manuever chains I’m going to live and breathe off of. Alternatively, you could take Totem Spirit – Shriikirri-Quah (Hawk Clan) with full intention of retrain. I need Power Attack as soon as I possibly can after all.

My stats are a balancing act. STR is your primary of course (needing thru some measure of base or buff at least 25 strength to open up Awesome Blow as you develop). CON was my choice over DEX because Im building to surround myself with foes off of charge maneuvers and ultimately maximize my useage of Cleave, Gr. Cleave, and Cleaving Finish once I’m in position. Dex requires at least 13 for Combat Reflexes but I intend to buff that thru Cat’s grace as I level to increase my available AoO cap. Int 10 just to preserve my already horrid skill point progression. Wisdom a minimum of 12 with stat bumps helping to improve that later on for spell access. CHA is my dump. I can offset that with a Headband or buff later if I want, but I’m a chain reaction Warpriest I’m not a channel/smite Priest.

I arm myself with a Falchion and buckler. I rely heavily on crits pushing me through enemies I engage off of charges. And I keen it at my first opportunity through any number of means/enchants. As soon as I meet the requirements I’m attaching Vital Strike.

At 2nd level I dip Fighter (Ultimately I want no more than 3 lvls in this dip, but I like Armor Training at Fighter 3rd because mobility is going to be a main-stay for me throughout my career. I’ll equip with an agile mithril breastplate asap and with Magic Vestment never think about it again).

As I progress I ENSURE I work up to Imp. Bullrush, Imp. Overrun, and Cleave. I can after 8th level when it’s my time to shine utilize my Weapon Master Domain power to pick at will from most any combat feat my situation requires of me. I’ll qualify for Cleaving Finish, Gr. Bullrush, Gr. Overrun, Charge Through, Rhino Charge, Awesome Blow and everything in between really because of that killer War Domain Power. If I really want to put a foe away following a successful Overrun or Bullrush I’ll pop the cap on an Imp. Vital Strike and put some dice in the air.

Buff spells are my primary focus, metamagic rods of Quicken later in life give me an added angle if I haven’t had an opportunity to pre-cast.

I have a few castings or a Rod full of Grace incase I need to get out of the mess Ive put myself in quickly without provoking nasty AoO’s while I’m beat up. Boots of Striding and Springing or Longstrider if I’m in good with a Druid and Im feeling pretty capable as a Horde Sweeper.

I hope that helps as a just messing around sort of maybe for you. Oh, and one last thing - NEVER underestimate the useage of Enlarge type spells.

Another question relating to a “Bullrush” Battle cleric on one of the other forums actually had me doing a lot of comparison between the Bullrush and Overrun feats. Ultimately during a mock up of that sort of character theme I started asking myself what was stopping me from taking both feats and vastly improving the amount of combat maneuver options that I would have situationally? The only answer I could come up with was – Nothing (assuming that I embrace that this kind of a build would be VERY feat intensive).

I think it’s important to clearly define what it is that you are trying to accomplish by the maneuver? The Bullrush chain definitively chains into vastly more possible feat selections as you progress, but it doesn’t do an awful lot more than reposition your foes and break formations that maybe you don’t like tactically. Overrun on the other hand, applies prone whilst breaking those same formations which from a personal stand-point is very attractive to me.

In the case of the mock up character concept I was fiddling around with, I want to break lines, get into the second (or third+) ranks and set myself up for Cleaves, Gr. Cleaves and ultimately at high level Cleaving Finish types of chain reactions. In which case, situationally, I probably lean on Imp. Overrun far more than I would Bullrushing. There are other feats and maneuvers that apply to what this mock up would want to do but this isn’t really the place to explore it. At the end of the day, what prompted me to post was to play Devil’s Advocate for Charge Through.

Charge Through (Combat)

You can overrun enemies when charging.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus+1.

Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.

Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target of your charge.

Just thought drawing some attention to that particular feat might answer some of the what ifs I’ve read through the discussion as well as open the conversation up to some more theory.

You know, I have never seen any PC, ever, use overrun.

Neither had my DM. I dare say he's become intimate with it these days. ;)

To "attempt" to offer suggestions about race, if I'm not getting too strange and off the beaten path my money is Human, or Half-orc. If I'm going to go what I'll call a trample-esque build bigger is going to inevitably be better (read also, what benefits greatest from say Enlarge type magics). Human obviously gets you your feat love so to speak, but I really do have a love affair with Orcish Ferocity which I'm not going to lie, is a Godsend when you spend a good bit of time in the literal thick of it.

One of my favorite characters in recent memory is a Cleric dipping wild shape Druid. And I inevitably found myself assessing the merits of Bull Rush v. Overrun. Ultimately I felt personally a higher potential combat return on Overrun and Improved Overrun enroute to Greater Overrun to what Bull Rush had to offer.

What tilted the decision for me personally was the raw potential of Greater Overrun and the increased probability of prone enemies triggering a plethora of AOO's during the resolution of my maneuver. Obviously, you want Combat Reflexes development in there at some point in such a case and if I were selecting Gr. Overrun for a build I would likely pair it with Spiked Destroyer over Merciless Rush if those are my only two choices.

That said. Gr. Bull Rush can still provoke during resolution. But Gr. Overrun attaches prone and that for me is the deciding factor.

Absolutely my pleasure Kalthanan. Having played many a paladin myself since Chainmail (yes, I'm THAT old) haha and as my current group is in the midst of Way of the Wicked. It's a topic I feel pretty educated regarding. I've enjoyed the discussion a lot. And I suppose ultimately what it will come down to is the good old DM having to decide, and set precedent in his or her game.

Edit: And Aazhog, apparently it is not clear as many have disagreed with you across several pages of debate. Many even stated that him "executing" it, even without trial and such, is not in fact an evil action. The only thing you really have to stand on right now is intent, and the only thing you have intent off of is that he's willing to allow it to be raised later. You don't know why he's willing.

Fortunately, I’m not required to “stand on” anything. I’m not lobbying to win a popularity contest of some sort. I’m merely attempting to engage in sharing my opinion. Which I think I have, fairly reasonably and unbiased if I do say so myself. As far as intent, we know the intent, as I stated above and the OP stated at the outset of discussion. Angry paladin, murderous intent for personal perception of crime. Which I may add, is only a crime by the laws of human society. Animals and beasts hold no such courts regarding slaughter. Must have something to do with that whole neutral thing.

Did it ever occur to you that in a world where everyone gets a free raise dead, killing it and then converting it to good by any number of ways of speaking with spirits while its dead is far safer to the general populace? There's no chance of it breaking its word, no chance of running amok, it felt no extra pain cause it was already unconscious and frankly decapitation is a very quick way to go.

I think Korthis answered this pretty brilliantly in his Edit 2. But Sure, I’ll go one step further. In the PF setting Raise Dead is NOT a mulligan by anyone’s measure. The slain creature must be willing to accept the spell or it fails. Now why would a purely instinctive creature accept a raise dead from the very people that slew it after seeking parlay?

At the end of the day, this paladin eliminated a threat that had attacked him that could still be spoken with, still be negotiated with, and subsequently brought back if it did change alignment.

It was no longer a threat of any kind the second it was incapacitated. Please note that I’m not saying that killing the creature was in and of itself an evil act. I’m saying killing a defenseless creature that poses no further threat is. I’d have had NO issue whatsoever had the paladin left the wyvern to bleed out or not – presumably at the will of the Gods ;)

One last contribution and then I think I’ll have said more than my fair share.

In cases of GM adjudication you MUST deal in specifics. You cannot consider well-if-thens, you must only rule based off of what you know to be factual (note that there are exceptions to this fundamental policy). There DO exist a number of possibilities to justify this particular Paladin’s actions. Except that we know that he murdered this particular foe not out of any perception of holy justice, but because the beast had angered him. It was, as has been mentioned above, executing a murder for vengeance sake.

We cannot rule on the basis of what we “believe” the creatures alignment to be (unless of course the DM has specifically already chosen to make that house rule amendment). The Wyvern as canon is neutral. It’s a particularly violent and primal neutral to be sure. The creature acts almost solely out of primal instinct.

Like a particularly vicious or aggressive dog that attacks anything that enters its self-proclaimed territory one could argue. Now, there IS a very strong argument for putting down that particular dog. There is an equally strong potential to argue that with proper training that dog could become a loyal and faithful pet. But in this case, if the information that has been presented is factual and accurate, then the paladin has (again in my opinion) most definitively Fallen. Not for attacking the creature, but for summarily executing the wyvern once the danger had been overcome and the foe vanquished.

Let me reiterate. The instant that THIS paladin executed his CdG for the “heinous” crime of an instinctive creature doing what that instinctive creature does, and not for virtuous or altruistic justice, it becomes murderous and he has Fallen. Short of a God of Murder that somehow possesses paladins of His or Her faith, this is not a grey area of debate here folks. This particular situation, if accurate, is excessively clear. In my humble opinion anyway.

Now, let’s not forget the great spontaneous rp that can occur out of this type of a scenario. Quests for Atonement and a return to Grace can be amazingly passionate and personal sidebars for any character. And for what it’s worth, it lets your player know that as a DM you have limits, AND that actions possess consequence.

Kalthanan, I agree for the most part with just about everything that you have presented towards the discussion. The only point that I think we have a difference of opinion on is held within this paragraph specifically. Granted, that we would want to pay consideration to the Diety the paladin worships carefully whilst navigating the slippery slope of adjudication:

“Bottom line (well, where my opinion is concerned), if the paladin's god empowers them to seek out evil and kill it, it becomes a bit of a stretch to say they are at fault for doing so when said creature at the paladin's mercy. It's akin to saying, "Well, we'll kill evil if we can do so in the midst of the continuum of combat, and we don't need a judicial process of determining guilt to justify doing so... but if they surrender we have to take them prisoner... and if they are subsequently found guilty we have to lock them up forever, since they're technically at our mercy then and executing them would make us evil."

Except that it is a treacherous ruling to assume that “fighting evil” is in anyway identical to “slaying evil”. What is the definition of a paladin if not holding to a significantly higher moral compass than the rest of the world? Are paladins not, by their very nature the embodiment of heroic qualities like Honor, Valor, and indeed Mercy? I will admit that I disagree very strongly with permitting a chaotic paladin in the first place, since in my opinion it is the component of LAW that truly makes a paladin a paladin. To speak in broad stroke generalizations, a chaotic paladin that takes lethal action based off of subjective and personal directive is at best an example of vigilante justice, and not an example of a holy crusader that fights for things much larger than him or herself. I believe a paladin does what they do for the greater good, their stories are not (or should not) be rooted in personal directive and perception.

The component of Law in a paladin’s alignment ensures that even a clearly evil force has an inherent right to judgement. Note I said judgement and not trial. Trial indicates a mortal set of laws and stricture to determine guilt of deed. Judgement suggests that there exists accountability and effect stemming from one’s actions, determined by a structured power. That being said, I realize that has little to nothing to do with the question posed by the OP so I won’t elaborate overmuch here.

I suppose what I am saying is that if a given player has no interest in following things like moral compasses, codes of conduct, chivalric dogma or in general acting like what I would call the “classic” examples of paladin-like behavior, why would they not play an entirely different class progression?

A cleric or oracle based Holy Vindicator for example. What exactly can a paladin really do (beyond fluff and flavour) that say one of these two options could not with careful feat and spell selection? And, I would be so bold as to suggest, without all of the worry about whether or not these exact types of situations ever create the potential for a Fall from godly grace.

Great discussion though. I don't mean to single you out specifically, but you made some really good points.

Some really sound, intelligent points. Also, a lot of silly tripe that seems to me to roll out at the end of the day as elevating "good" to synonymous with "stupid".

To weigh in. Charging in on the heels of battle to drop an aggressor who initiated the combat in the first place is not in and of itself an "evil" act. Considerations of the scenerio or not there simply isn't the convenience of time for the Paladin to go through the laundry list of why's and what fors as I understand the play to have ocurred.

However.

Slaying a vanquished, defenseless foe, who no longer poses to you or your companions a direct threat of death or injury, in the aftermath? Very clear Fall.

Sidenote for the sake of stating the obvious: Your player isn't capable of playing a paladin to begin with.

So, I don't know how far along this has progressed but I seem to fall into this same category. 42 and live in the NE. Looking at the possibility of adding another group to roll with as my usual group only convenes every month or two. I'd be very interested in meeting some new folks and putting some stuff to the sword!