Okies..... I've done the search before I get flamed...
Theoretically, which gods of Golarian would require/demand celibacy and a life of abstaining from conjugal pleasures? Seen as (off the top of my head) only one Chrispy denomination (Catholicism) demands celibacy from its' priests.. bearing in mind that Church of England vicars who convert, to the best of my knowledge, are not required to be celibate if already married...(I can check this bit!!)
I get that paladins would probably be expected to be chaste, celibate and Lawful Stupid ;)
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Not sure this really qualifies as a rules question but, to the best of my knowledge anyway...
I get that paladins would probably be expected to be chaste, celibate and Lawful Stupid ;)
Nope, nope, and nope.
I can say with certainty that none of the paladin compatible deities are particularly prudish, although they'd all be against the whole love'em and leave'em concept (Erastil in particular would want you starting a proper family).
Meanwhile, the whole lawful stupid playstyle (blind faith to the government, detect-evil-smite-murder, etc.) honestly goes directly against the codes of conduct paladins of any deity are held to (as has honestly always been the case). It's all about being a responsible person who unfailingly does the right thing.
... And only just now catching you were also asking about clerics in general, so I shouldn't just be looking at LG and LG-adjacent, most are still pretty liberal. Calistria and Lamashtu actively encourage their followers to sleep around. If anyone IS big into abstinence, it might be Asmodeus, Nethys, or Irori, but I can't think of anything offhand that really seems to indicate it for any of them.
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I'd suggest that somebody with your prejudices stay away from divine casters, in the same way I suggest people who are sociopaths avoid playing "the face."
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Chillax, guys. I assume the "Lawful Stupid" comment was a joke, given the smiley, and it doesn't hurt to give the benefit of the doubt to a relative newcomer.
Speaking of which, welcome to the forum, FeeFiFoFum! Folks don't usually flame people who make redundant threads, though they do whack me those people with a stick now and then. ;)
On-Topic: Yeah, Pathfinder has very few prudish gods on either side. I think Asmodeus might be? Or maybe Abadar.
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As I understood Erastil and his focus on family would demand either celibacy or marriage. In other words he most likely has a "No s*x until marriage" point of view. But apart from that I don't see that.
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As I understood Erastil and his focus on family would demand either celibacy or marriage. In other words he most likely has a "No s*x until marriage" point of view. But apart from that I don't see that.
Erastil was originally written that way. Then they went in an relaxed his stiff back. Erastil believes that people should create families and communities. Nothing that requires marriage or celibacy or even single partners or even partners of opposite sexes.
He's a very pragmatic god and realizes that people will do as they will, even if it's not something he'd personally approve of.
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I would guess Erastil's clerics would be heavily encouraged to marry before having kids, though. And adventuring clerics would be likewise encouraged to remain celibate until they're willing to settle down and provide the kids with a stable community.
Your best bet for a serious answer is to realize that none of the major ones got to be major ones by harshing anyone's fun time (aside from Zon-Kuthon.)
For what minor gods/sects/Empyreal Lords or whatever... I can't find anyone. Though apparently there is an Empyreal Lord whose portfolio is prostitution, rites of passage and virginity... so that's awesome.
Hey, Kuthites have "fun time".
It's just that only they consider it to be "fun".
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I would guess Erastil's clerics would be heavily encouraged to marry before having kids, though. And adventuring clerics would be likewise encouraged to remain celibate until they're willing to settle down and provide the kids with a stable community.
Well encouraged to not toy with the emotions of others/manipulate people for their ends. And not necessarily encouraged to remain celibate as required to take responsibility for whatever consequences their actions create, I suspect.
I suggest buying Gods of the Inner Sea when it comes out to double check!
Edit: And actually that is my answer: None. But quite a few are required to take responsibility for any issues that might arise due to their pursuits. (And no I'm not gonna turn this into a discussion of what that means. Best judgement of each GM.)
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Well, it's a fact that standard adventurers make heavily subpar parents at best. Either they're always out working late, or they're taking their kids to work.
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Well, it's a fact that standard adventurers make heavily subpar parents at best. Either they're always out working late, or they're taking their kids to work.
Murder hoboin is a hard life. :(
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Hey, Kuthites have "fun time".
It's just that only they consider it to be "fun".
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me. So slap my ass and pull my hair and tell me that you like me."
-Chapter 3, Verse 6, The Umbral Leaves
Irori is really the only one I can think of where celibacy would be highly common, and even then, I don't think it would be universal to his priesthood--Irori recognizes all rigorously followed paths to enlightenment, so while many priests of Irori take vows of chastity to avoid distraction, I'm sure that he has tantric sects as well.
Abadar, Erastil, and *maybe* Iomedae, meanwhile, are the only others who would even really care about your sex life, but they just want to make sure you get married, first. (Well, Lamashtu cares about your sex life--she wants you having lots and lots of it so you can birth more mutant babies.) Everyone else ranges from indifferent on the subject to encouraging you to have a good time.
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There can also be some differences within the church. For example, in the info on Ustalav, especially that regarding the Carrion Crown AP, it is mentioned that there are a lot of zealous Pharasmites who seem to hold it that people should have a hard life in this world to have a better afterlife, and that hasn't been pointed elsewhere in the description of the dogma. I imagine that extramarital relationships would not be looked at too kindly in such a setting. As long as cultural mores don't actively break the dogma, the deity might not have any issues with them.
I am curious if there aren't orders where the clerics take further vows (essentially becoming the equivalent of RL monks) within the major churches, though. It is a tradition present in several RL faiths and cultures, and one I have not noticed much in Golarion.
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And even in real life, the catholic church didn't insist on its priests being celibate until it had been in existence for about 1000 years...
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@ The Shaman
Most material about Golarion focus on the adventurers more than the "common folk", priests included.
Most priest are adepts, some can even be expert or commoners. The Cleric class isn't necessarily the typical priest, especially for small communities.
From what I have read there can be a large difference in rules depending on the different sects within the same church and even the local monastery can have specific rules that are different from the general requirements for a member of that religion.
The Ask James Jacobs thread is a good location to make this kind of questions, as JJ is the guy in charge of Golarion lore.
Chillax, guys. I assume the "Lawful Stupid" comment was a joke, given the smiley, ...
Yes it was...
Don't expect you own rule in another monastery.
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I get that paladins would probably be expected to be chaste, celibate and Lawful Stupid ;)
No to all three here.
Consider my patron: Lymnieris, the Lawful and Good Empyreal Lord of not only virgins but of rites of passage and prostitutes. Some paladins of Lymnieris are chaste themselves. Some are anything but.
There is no universal rule concerning matters of love and the flesh amongst paladins of most gods. Indeed, celibacy would be downright unusual for a great many of them. Shelyn, Arshea, and Erastil particularly stand out, each for their own reasons. And I can hardly think of one god who has paladins that would forbid their holy warriors from marriage or another bond of love. Iomedae, who many see as a sort of goddess of paladins, has numerous famous married paladins as well as those who have found love outside of it. One famous half-orc paladin and her wife stand out as one particularly happy example.
We're far more varied than some would have you think.
As for "Lawful Stupid", I would suggest looking to Ghenshau. Though even that is an oversimplification, bless his heart.
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As covered thouroughly, none of the gods demand celibacy though some would frown on sex outside of marriage.
Relating to real life and why the Catholic church institutred a policy of celibacy is because church's and their dominion where becoming inherited practices where in the son of a priest would be expected to take control of the church. At the time this became a problem because it gave a single family a lot of power (at the time religion held a far greater control over the people than it does now) and it created tension and problems between the people and the church.
Personally, if I had to place bets on any random cleric being chaste (assuming non-married), I'd guess Shelyn. Not as a rule, just on the numbers.
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On the subject of paladins (but why is this in the rules forum?) I found something that the BoED said about Good and sexuality to be fairly profound; while individual dogmas may differ, what Good as an alignment/planar faction cares about is that sexual relationships are defined by consent and mutual respect. A paladin being sexually active, hiring a lady of negotiable affection, or being such a lady doesn't preclude that requirement at all, since all it's really asking is that you remember that the person you're with is a human being with wants, needs, and fears - and that you remain sensitive to that.
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As for who's most likely to value celibacy, I've got an easy way to find a few contenders:
Look up the oathbound paladin's Oath of Celibacy and see which gods are most compatible with that oath. Sadly, this only covers LG, NG and LN deities, but it offers some insight into that corner of deities.
And the deities listed for Oath of Celibacy are: Iomedae, Sarenrae, Torag.
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On the subject of paladins (but why is this in the rules forum?) I found something that the BoED said about Good and sexuality to be fairly profound; while individual dogmas may differ, what Good as an alignment/planar faction cares about is that sexual relationships are defined by consent and mutual respect. A paladin being sexually active, hiring a lady of negotiable affection, or being such a lady doesn't preclude that requirement at all, since all it's really asking is that you remember that the person you're with is a human being with wants, needs, and fears - and that you remain sensitive to that.
I like this, but it has some interesting complications.
It strongly implies, for example, that while the paladin would have no issue with a courtesan who voluntarily chose that life he would have significant issues with somebody who was essentially forced into prostitution to survive, or with sex slaves, etc.
"consent" is not a trivial thing to define. As is shown by countless court cases in the real world. Clerics and paladins are often going to be in a position of real authority, further complicating things.
And gray is so much more interesting than black and white, even with paladins.
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On the subject of paladins (but why is this in the rules forum?) I found something that the BoED said about Good and sexuality to be fairly profound; while individual dogmas may differ, what Good as an alignment/planar faction cares about is that sexual relationships are defined by consent and mutual respect. A paladin being sexually active, hiring a lady of negotiable affection, or being such a lady doesn't preclude that requirement at all, since all it's really asking is that you remember that the person you're with is a human being with wants, needs, and fears - and that you remain sensitive to that.I like this, but it has some interesting complications.
It strongly implies, for example, that while the paladin would have no issue with a courtesan who voluntarily chose that life he would have significant issues with somebody who was essentially forced into prostitution to survive, or with sex slaves, etc.
It's not an implication, it's exactly the case. Though, the paladin wouldn't have a problem with the individual forced into the illegal sex trade, but the person who forced them, controlled them, and possibly the clientele that used them. They would be smote to hell.
Arguably, celibacy might just be a matter of prudence for paladins. If you do sire children, you might have to stop adventuring to take care of them.
Bachelor's Snuff/Night Tea eliminates that risk entirely.
But to the original question, I don't think any would require it, especially not to the point of 'you lost your virginity and your spellcasting at the same time'.
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It's not an implication, it's exactly the case. Though, the paladin wouldn't have a problem with the individual forced into the illegal sex trade, but the person who forced them, controlled them, and possibly the clientele that used them. They would be smote to hell.
Confirmed. That is precisely how we operate.
Let's just say there are a lot of pimps and slavers missing hands or buried in the desert. But to blame their victims? Never.
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Razmir will have you know that you should not pursue earthly pleasures. Dedicate yourself instead to service to Razmir.
Seems legit.
Celibacy may be one of the disciplines of the followers of Irori, given that some Earth analog religions believe retention of sexual energy translates into more power in other areas of life (creativity, fighting, etc.). But to me, that would be a matter of personal choice for the monk, not a dictate by a deity.
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To become a master, one must first master oneself.
....
Pay no mind to my holy symbol.
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You know who would preach celibacy?
The Prophesies of Kalistrade.
The kid gloves stay on.
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According to "Racing to Ruin" p. 68 (and also mentioned on p. 11 of "Faiths of Balance", and p. 18 of "Gods & Magic" for those with this older book), Gozreh's priests have a high rate of celibacy, as they wholly devote themselves to their master/mistress.
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Arguably, celibacy might just be a matter of prudence for paladins. If you do sire children, you might have to stop adventuring to take care of them.
There's always bachlor's snuff. And not all pally's are dudes.
I play a female paladin of Arshea. It gets interesting
Also for the being celebate thing
Reymenda- is the Empyreal lord of Childlessness. It's not necessary, but it helps.
Bharnarol- might want certain members of his worshipers to focus completely on their invention
Damerrich- While it might not be really in his nature, worshipers of him might be a bit on the grim side and at the very least might have trouble finding someone to share their lives with
Korada- very much about inner peace, worshipers of him may give up earthly pleasures to seek inner peace and enlightenment
Ragathiel- with all the talk of duty and the like it make sense
Vildeis- In spades, one of her big things is sacrafice. And her worshipers might not WANT to enjoy themselves physically as long as their is evil in the world, and doubly not bring children into a world so filled with evil
Winlas- could encourage his followers to devote themselves to their congerations, not to a single person.
I could see many paladins being somewhat careful with attachments (up to going as far as being celibate), since forming relationships creates potential targets for the allies of those you smite to get back at you.
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I think if there is a clergy that enforces celibacy, that would be the clergy of Asmodeus.
Asmodeus and the hierarchies of hell in general has always been described as highly misogynist.
Given that I think they may pretty well establish that no priest of Asmodeus should lower himself by finding pleasure in a woman.
And eventual female priests of Asmodeus...
If you add that the few female devils that managed to gain a position in hell are called Whore queens it speaks volumes about the level of contempt Asmodeus has for both women and sex.
For the same reason I think no female cleric of Asmodeus would be taken particularly seriously, just like nuns can't be bishops, or become popes.
There actually is one, or two, faiths that looks highly favorably, it's almost required, on celibacy. The Qlippoth and the Horsemen. Both of these groups hate mortals. Since their goal is the extinction of all mortal life, the last thing they want you to do is make more souls.
The Catholic faith is just one of many, and the deities of Golarion and many other settings aren't Catholic, but their own thing. To echo other posters, I don't see why celibacy would be required of most of them or even be a default assumption.
There is one old faith of an ancient temple which has a pole coming down the center of it. The pole enters into a (I am not making this up, nor am I trying to be crude) er, circular area which becomes a fountain.
This ah, structure is to represent the fertilization of the earth. The pole and so one is washed with milk and honey and so on during these ceremonies by groups of (yes, clothed) villagers, who are singing and chanting together.
...the idea of celibacy as part of a priesthood, etc. is then something based on specific real-world faiths, but not only are we speaking of a fantasy realm, rl faiths on Earth are actually quite varied.
Also, there's no reason for faiths which include sex to be about zomg "holy prostitution." It can have quite a different representation, as evidenced by the above temple. ...and it's quite cool if they do, as the "holy prostitution" angle can easily be over-cliched.
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Well, whether we're talking about Catholic priests, monastic orders of many different religions worldwide, or eunuchs, there has been a tradition of a caste of individuals who wield considerable temporal and spiritual power, in exchange for the ability to father the next generation. Part of the reason they are respected is because they cannot be hereditary, thus meritocracy matters more. Also, because they renounce families, they are perceived as safe at court, since they will not sire offspring among courtiers.
In Western society today, this concept is rather obsolete and hard to fathom. As a result, there is far less reason to consider the existence of such a class, whether through vows of celibacy or other reasons. However, I still see this as an area that is worth mining for worldbuilding ideas.
You know who would preach celibacy?
The Prophesies of Kalistrade.
The kid gloves stay on.
Well, maybe. We know they have strict rules about sex, but we haven't the faintest idea what those rules are. For all we know, if you don't bump uglies in some kind of ritual fashion at least twice a night you get kicked out.