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So the new FAQ on how mounted charges work states that both you and your mount are charging to make this attack.
The problem that has arisen with this new information is that characters that don't have some way to make ride checks as less than move actions cannot command their mounts to charge.
So the fighter archetypes, The Roughrider and Dragoon, can no longer charge without multiclassing even though they have abilities linked to charging while mounted...
Is this going to be fixed anytime soon or are these and similar archetypes and classes just going to have to live with never being able to charge?
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Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
I either fail to see the problem or am not understanding your question.
It is a DC 10 Ride check and a free action to attempt. Nearly automatic at level 1 for any ride oriented character and pretty much automatic at level 3 or higher for the same. And it is a FREE action.
I would put in a picture of Chewbacca at this point but I think it would be overkill.
Most ride checks are no action or free actions...the cover one is an immediate action and it's a move action to control a mount in combat if they are not combat trained...if they are combat trained this is not an issue
I'm with Gilfalas on not seeing the problem
Is a charge counted as that attack?
I ask because I know charging actually involves moving the mount which is a handle animal check that is a move action.
Is a charge counted as one of those attacks?
Is a charge a type of fighting? I am 99.9999999999% sure an attack is also a type of fighting. I think that would be a yes.
I only ask because of the movement involved. I'll gladly accept a "There is no problem" answer. Also I edited the question because it was stupidly written as you pointed out.
What I'm getting is if your mount is Combat Trained your fine. Which is should be combat trained. Works for me. Should have checked the ride skill a bit more thoroughly. I was looking on specific guidelines for charging but I guess they don't exist and "Attack" will have to suffice.
So the new FAQ on how mounted charges work states that both you and your mount are charging to make this attack.
It does not. It states that you and your mount must both be charging (i.e., take the charge action) in order to get the attack bonus and lance damage bonus.
Nothing prevents your mount from charging with you atop it firing arrows. You just don't take the AC penalty or get the attack bonus.
I could see an issue where you're using a lance and thus have greater reach than the mount. A charge is supposed to involve an attack at the end of it. But, if the mount stops 10 ft away so you can attack, it can't attack so it wasn't a valid charge. But if it closes to 5 ft...you're supposed to deliver the attack at the end of the charge, so you shouldn't be moving afterwards. Ride-by Attack probably fixes this issue, but not *every* lance-using (or other reach weapon-using) mounted charger will have that feat.
Perhaps that would cause a problem? I don't know, in any case sounds like the stupidity of pure 100% RAW that I avoid anyway.
I could see an issue where you're using a lance and thus have greater reach than the mount. A charge is supposed to involve an attack at the end of it. But, if the mount stops 10 ft away so you can attack, it can't attack so it wasn't a valid charge. But if it closes to 5 ft...you're supposed to deliver the attack at the end of the charge, so you shouldn't be moving afterwards. Ride-by Attack probably fixes this issue, but not *every* lance-using (or other reach weapon-using) mounted charger will have that feat.
Perhaps that would cause a problem? I don't know, in any case sounds like the stupidity of pure 100% RAW that I avoid anyway.
I don't see anything in the description of charge that says you have to make the attack at the end of your movement. It merely says you must move to the closest space from which you can attack your target, it does not say you have to stop there. So your moving mount would not stop you from making an attack as long as you make it from the closest possible space per the rules.
If you want a really funny broken thing about charging characters check this out: You can ready a brace weapon against a charge as soon as the charging character gets within 10 feet you take your readied action then 5 foot step forward so you are 5 feet away and they can't attack you with their reach weapon. Really cheesy I know, but technically legal.
The attack from a mount comes from anywhere in the mounts square.
The attack from a mount comes from anywhere in the mounts square.
So for small creatures riding a medium sized mount, or unmounted creatures charging with a reach weapon or lunge.
I don't see anything in the description of charge that says you have to make the attack at the end of your movement. It merely says you must move to the closest space from which you can attack your target, it does not say you have to stop there. So your moving mount would not stop you from making an attack as long as you make it from the closest possible space per the rules.
I thought that stopping and then making the attack was implied. Isn't that the whole point of Ride-by Attack, to continue to move after making the charge attack? And the closest space that you can attack from will likely be different for the rider and his mount, also causing an issue.
@Mojorat: I was not aware of that rule. I thought the rider counts as occupying all the spaces his mount does, so he retains the "donut hole" where he can't attack with his reach weapon. If what you say is true, mounted is the best thing ever for reach; you have no close space you can't attack but retain the long reach. That just...doesn't sound right.
If you want a really funny broken thing about charging characters check this out: You can ready a brace weapon against a charge as soon as the charging character gets within 10 feet you take your readied action then 5 foot step forward so you are 5 feet away and they can't attack you with their reach weapon. Really cheesy I know, but technically legal.
That's funny, but certainly not broken. I do stuff like that all the time, with or without brace. In order for the "cheese" to work, you have to go before the foe AND have him play right into your readied action script. It's not cheese, it's tactics. Sometimes rushing in full offense is a dumb move, shocking I know. Charge is very powerful especially with pounce, it should have some countermeasures against it. The game rewards offense-mindedness plenty, it's nice once in a while for a patient, defensive strategy to be useful. I go first, ready to step inside hothead's reach and stab him. Hothead charges, I do as I prepared to, he's hurt and surprised and loses his turn. Next round, oh look at that! My ready set my init to juuuuuust before his. I get a full attack on his sorry -2 charge penalty to AC'd ass. :D
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Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.I either fail to see the problem or am not understanding your question.
It is a DC 10 Ride check and a free action to attempt. Nearly automatic at level 1 for any ride oriented character and pretty much automatic at level 3 or higher for the same. And it is a FREE action.
I would put in a picture of Chewbacca at this point but I think it would be overkill.
That use of the Ride skill doesn't do what you think it does. Read it again.
"If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action".'
This use of the skill allows you to make an attack, if your mount has been commanded to attack. Failing the check means that you cannot attack in a round your mount makes an attack. How do you command your mount to attack? You use the Handle Animal skill, which is a move action.
There's been some argument that the Ride skill supersedes the Handle Animal skill (despite the fact that there's nothing that says it does), because of this usage of the Ride skill:
"Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat."
Here's the thing. If you look at the consequences of failing the check, neither you, nor your mount can take any actions. This doesn't mean you get to skip giving your mount commands, it just means that you get the opportunity to give your mount commands. You still use the normal rules for giving a mount commands, which is making the appropriate Handle Animal checks.
Even if you ignore that and assume that this use of the Ride skill does more than it says it does, it still leaves the Dragoon, Roughrider, and Sohei out in the cold, because it is always a move action to use this use of the Ride skill. Giving your mount combat training (which is just a packet of Handle Animal commands) allows you to skip the roll but does not negate the move action requirement.
If Ssalarn is right and it is an absolute requirement to use a move action to Handle Animal to get the mount to charge (and from all appearances he's right on that), could this fall under the heading of 'only being allowed to take a standard action' and its resultant variety of charge? That would allow both mount and rider to charge while still fulfilling all the roll requirements, albeit at a reduced distance (as per the Charge rules under Standard Action).
Bumping this. It seems to be looking grim for these archetypes and similar classes. Should this be FAQ'd maybe? Might as well start trying to fix the mess that has become of Mounted Combat.
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If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
Even if your interpretation is correct, you can direct your mount to charge as a move action, then make an attack at the end of the charge as a standard action and gain the benefits and penalties of a charge attack which is essentially accomplishing the same thing really. No problems here.
I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that the idea behind the "control mount in battle" use of the ride skill is that battle is f%%+ing scary, and because your non-combat trained mount is scared out of its mind you need to spend a move action to get it to do anything at all, and if you fail that you waste your entire turn trying to keep it from panicking. If the mount is combat trained, you don't need to use that move action to control a non-combat trained mount in battle, and therefore don't need to roll.
Your reward for spending the time or money to combat train your mount is that you get to not make that check, and you can use a free action to roll a DC 10 ride check to basically negate the move action that handling an animal requires.
I admit that if this is the intended way for it to work, then Fight with a Combat-trained Mount would've been better formulated as something along the lines of "If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still take a full round action to make your own attack or attacks normally." I honestly believe that this is RAI, though.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).Even if your interpretation is correct, you can direct your mount to charge as a move action, then make an attack at the end of the charge as a standard action and gain the benefits and penalties of a charge attack which is essentially accomplishing the same thing really. No problems here.
no you cannot, because with the new FAQ you are now considered to be charging as well as the mount. if you are charging (as per the charging rules) you cannot make a move action. even in situations where you only get a standard action because, well, you DONT get a move action. in order to make the handle animal check necessary to command your mount to charge, you have to have a move action available. you do not have one if you are charging.
no you cannot, because with the new FAQ you are now considered to be charging as well as the mount. if you are charging (as per the charging rules) you cannot make a move action. even in situations where you only get a standard action because, well, you DONT get a move action. in order to make the handle animal check necessary to command your mount to charge, you have to have a move action available. you do not have one if you are charging.If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).Even if your interpretation is correct, you can direct your mount to charge as a move action, then make an attack at the end of the charge as a standard action and gain the benefits and penalties of a charge attack which is essentially accomplishing the same thing really. No problems here.
Ok, I am confused. Are people suggesting that you have to direct your mount to charge, then wait until next turn for it to happen because you need a full round to do it? It really looks like people are splitting hairs here. You make a ride check and you charge. What about this FAQ changes that?
you make a ride check to charge. but in order to tell your mount to charge, you make a handle animal check that takes a move action.
you dont have to wait until your next turn, no. but you do have to use this turns move action to do it, which you cannot use if you are considered charging because a charge is a full round action.
[Edit] basically the FAQ broke the action economy for charging on a mount because it now wants you to make a full round action and a move action within the same round. i guess technically speaking, this is perfectly legal if you are wearing a 'Quick Runners Shirt', but aside from that, its not possible.
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That use of the Ride skill doesn't do what you think it does. Read it again.
"If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action".'
This use of the skill allows you to make an attack, if your mount has been commanded to attack. Failing the check means that you cannot attack in a round your mount makes an attack. How do you command your mount to attack? You use the Handle Animal skill, which is a move action.There's been some argument that the Ride skill supersedes the Handle Animal skill (despite the fact that there's nothing that says it does), because of this usage of the Ride skill:
"Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat."
Here's the thing. If you look at the consequences of failing the check, neither you, nor your mount can take any actions. This doesn't mean you get to skip giving your mount commands, it just means that you get the opportunity to give your mount commands. You still use the normal rules for giving a mount commands, which is making the appropriate Handle Animal checks.
Even if you ignore that and assume that this use of the Ride skill does more than it says it does, it still leaves the Dragoon, Roughrider, and Sohei out in the cold, because it is always a move action to use this use of the Ride skill. Giving your mount combat training (which is just a packet of Handle Animal commands) allows you to skip the roll but does not negate the move action requirement.
Everyone in this thread is blind to the obvious.
The only classes that could have both the mount and the character attack on a charge are druids, rangers, cavaliers or any other class that allows the handle animal check as a free action. This is how it has ALWAYS been. This FAQ didn't all of a sudden take something away from the Dragoon archetype or the Roughrider archetype, because they never had that ability in the first place.
The Dragoon and Roughrider can still ride a mount and charge; the rider is the only one making an attack, the mount CAN NOT make an attack...the mount NEVER COULD make an attack, even before the FAQ. The FAQ has broken nothing.
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you make a ride check to charge. but in order to tell your mount to charge, you make a handle animal check that takes a move action.
you dont have to wait until your next turn, no. but you do have to use this turns move action to do it, which you cannot use if you are considered charging because a charge is a full round action.
[Edit] basically the FAQ broke the action economy for charging on a mount because it now wants you to make a full round action and a move action within the same round. i guess technically speaking, this is perfectly legal if you are wearing a 'Quick Runners Shirt', but aside from that, its not possible.
Wrong. There is no handle animal skill talent that says "make a move action". The only time you need to make a handle animal check is if you are going to direct your mount to make an attack. ATTACK, not move.
Wrong, before they could command the mount to charge as a move action and still attack as a standard without taking the bonus to hit or double lance damage, now they cannot because if the mount DOES charge, so does the rider. This is not possible because it takes a move action to make the mount do so, which then forces you into a full round action you did not intend to take.
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Wrong, before they could command the mount to charge as a move action and still attack as a standard without taking the bonus to hit or double lance damage, now they cannot because if the mount DOES charge, so does the rider. This is not possible because it takes a move action to make the mount do so, which then forces you into a full round action you did not intend to take.
Newsflash: you don't use the handle animal skill to direct the mount around the battlefield, you use the ride skill. Therefore, there is no need "to command the mount to charge as a move action". There never was a need to do so. For starters, such a trick doesn't even exist for the handle animal skill.
The only time you would have to use the handle animal skill is if you wanted to actually direct the mount to "Attack". A Dragoon charging on a horse isn't directing the mount to make an attack, therefore he doesn't even have to use the handle animal skill, and therefore doesn't have to worry about wasting a move action.
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@HangarFlying Due to the new FAQ in order for there to be a "mounted charge" both the rider and mount are to be considered charging. This means you have to direct the mount to attack something which takes a move action.
No. You're over thinking it. If you're not a druid, ranger, etc. you can't direct the mount to attack something and get an attack yourself. YOU NEVER COULD. You direct your mount around the battlefield using the Ride skill.
You declare a charge, make the appropriate Ride checks, move at the mount's movement rates, then make your attack against the target. The reason why both the mount and rider are considered to be charging, is so that the mount also has the AC penalty in case something wants to attack the mount instead of the rider.
Essentially, for the purposes of a normal character on a charge, the rider and mount are one symbiotic creature, in which the movement is made at the mount's movement rate, and the attack is made by the rider, though both get the AC penalty.
A Druid or Ranger, though, may also direct their mount to attack so that both the mount and the rider may make an attack.
People honestly thought that a rider could command a mount to attack as a move action, the mount then makes a full-round action to charge, the mount and rider move up to 100 feet (assuming a horse), the mount makes a charge attack, and the rider still has enough action economy left to make one attack...after having moved 100 feet? That didn't throw up any red flags? If that's the case, it's no wonder people thought mounted combat was so confusing...because that isn't how it was ever supposed to work.
1) Look, a mounted charge is now the rider charging AND the mount charging. Charging involves making an attack. Thus, a mounted charge involves the mount making an attack.
Agree?
2) This means that the rider and the mount must each have a full-round action available.
Agree?
3) Here's the controversial statement: Any interpretation that requires special class abilities in order to make a mounted charge is self-evidently wrong.
Or, less confrontational: I think we can all agree that a warrior on a combat-trained horse is capable of a mounted charge without needing special class abilities.
Agree?
Therefore, there must be an interpretation that lets you charge without having to spend a move action directing your mount.
Maybe this part of the Ride skill is relevant.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.[/b]
Its a warhorse. Its been trained to kick people it runs at in the face. If you start running, it starts kicking face.
Just go with RAI and you'll get a lot fewer headaches. Yes, you're charging when you hit something with a lance. No, your horse doesn't get thre without ride by attack. This is not aproblem. You're a knight, pokey the orc with a lance and move on.
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1) Look, a mounted charge is now the rider charging AND the mount charging. Charging involves making an attack. Thus, a mounted charge involves the mount making an attack.
Agree?
No.
Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge.
1 charge, 1 attack. There is no need for your mount to make an attack. The attack part is covered by the rider making his attack.
They aren't two separate actions.
2) This means that the rider and the mount must each have a full-round action available.Agree?
Yes, but irrelevant.
3) Here's the controversial statement: Any interpretation that requires special class abilities in order to make a mounted charge is self-evidently wrong.
Or, less confrontational: I think we can all agree that a warrior on a combat-trained horse is capable of a mounted charge without needing special class abilities.Agree?
Yes, but irrelevant.
Therefore, there must be an interpretation that lets you charge without having to spend a move action directing your mount.
Maybe this part of the Ride skill is relevant.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
The problem is that the people that see a problem with the FAQ is joining/dividing the charge as needed to make it impossible.
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Someone can point me to the "charge" trick?
To the rule that say that you need to repeat the attack command every round?
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies.You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
After you have given the attack command in round 1 your don't need to repeat it every round. You only need to direct your mount against the next enemy.
People are over thinking all of this. First, assume the rules were written to work without animal companions then assume ride does exactly what it says it does, that you can make a check to direct your mount to attack and attack yourself.
After that everything works. Or think of it this way Knights do not need handle animal. That is what they have squires for.
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People honestly thought that a rider could command a mount to attack as a move action, the mount then makes a full-round action to charge, the mount and rider move up to 100 feet (assuming a horse), the mount makes a charge attack, and the rider still has enough action economy left to make one attack...after having moved 100 feet? That didn't throw up any red flags? If that's the case, it's no wonder people thought mounted combat was so confusing...because that isn't how it was ever supposed to work.
If I may address myself, having just woken up.
The FAQ is specifically addressed towards the rider doing the charge special attack while mounted on a horse (or whatever). As far as that goes, nothing has changed: Dragoons and Roughriders may still do the things that they do. The FAQ merely clarifies that if the rider is charging, the mount is considered to also be charging, thus receiving the AC penalty as well.
Diego Rossi astutely pointed out—to be honest, I mind-blanked on this possibility—that unless you directed your mount to attack on a previous round, only the rider is making an attack on that charge. Druids and Rangers are able to direct their mounts to attack as a free action on the same round that they, themselves, charge.
This doesn't preclude the rider from directing the mount to charge as a move action (handle animal to attack, in which the mount charges the target), and then the rider having a standard action to do something else (cast a spell, make a ranged attack, quaff a potion, etc). This is not the situation to which the FAQ is referring. That being said, my personal bias/opinion is that the rider would not be able to make a melee attack after what essentially amounts to the rider having made a double move (assuming the mount did move over its normal movement rate to make the charge).
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I swear do people just go out of their way to make sure things don't work? Paizo posts a FAQ and the first thing people do is look for every possible tiny way it couldn't work but ignore the ways it could. I'm suddenly reminded of armor spikes...le sigh.
I swear do people just go out of their way to make sure things don't work? Paizo posts a FAQ and the first thing people do is look for every possible tiny way it couldn't work but ignore the ways it could. I'm suddenly reminded of armor spikes...le sigh.
Or the bastard sword...
Or the AoMF and Grappling...
It never ceases to amaze me how much people continue to argue how rules work with the people who make them.
I swear do people just go out of their way to make sure things don't work? Paizo posts a FAQ and the first thing people do is look for every possible tiny way it couldn't work but ignore the ways it could. I'm suddenly reminded of armor spikes...le sigh.Or the bastard sword...
Or the AoMF and Grappling...
It never ceases to amaze me how much people continue to argue how rules work with the people who make them.
While people do complain a lot about the way rules are written in ways that aren't necessary, it's still the case that sometimes people who write the rules aren't as careful with specific rules-bearing terminology as they should be. When there's a campaign like Pathfinder Society, where everything is supposed to go exactly as written, the specific phrasing used in rules can be important because it can cause things to break down due to either mechanics not working or people having to bend or break the rules.
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Here is my interpretation/"fix":
Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem.
Are you doing something normal while riding?
Is it otherwise listed on the ride table as having an action or skill DC associated with it?Then there is no check or action required to do it.
Having a war trained mount charge while you ride it seems pretty normal to me. No check or action needed.
Having ride be basically useless unless you also have Handle Animal seems unncessarily punitive to riding characters and is honestly not something I'd even considered until this recent debate.
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People are over thinking all of this. First, assume the rules were written to work without animal companions then assume ride does exactly what it says it does, that you can make a check to direct your mount to attack and attack yourself.
Except that's not what the rules say. You want them to say that, because then the FAQ didn't break things without resolving anything, but they don't.
There is no Ride check that allows you to command an animal to attack as a free action.
There is a Ride check that allows you to attack if you have commanded your mount to attack, which can be done as a free action, and there is the much disputed "Control a mount not trained for combat in battle". I maintain that it doesn't do what some people are saying it does and automatically gives your mount commands, it is instead intended to allow you to control a non-combat trained mount at all, but even if you read it that way it still requires a move check.
Or think of it this way Knights do not need handle animal. That is what they have squires for.
Except not every knight in Pathfinder is actually running around with a squire on hand, and they specifically gave the Handle Animal skill to every class that has or even might have a mount, including the Fighter.
You use Handle Animal to give commands to an animal, and you use Ride to stay on your mount and do all the things you want to do from horseback. The two go hand-in-hand. Charging is an attack and it takes a move action with the Handle Animal skill to command a mount to attack.
So yes, even if you assume the section of Ride ride referring to non-combat trained mounts actually applies to all mounts and supersedes Handle Animal, the new ruling still means that a Roughrider, Dragoon, Sohei, or any class not granted an animal companion cannot make a mounted charge, whereas they could under the previous interpretation which was supported by prior FAQ, dev commentary, and the paragraph they're deleting out of the CRB which allowed the rider his normal complement of move and standard actions.
While people do complain a lot about the way rules are written in ways that aren't necessary, it's still the case that sometimes people who write the rules aren't as careful with specific rules-bearing terminology as they should be. When there's a campaign like Pathfinder Society, where everything is supposed to go exactly as written, the specific phrasing used in rules can be important because it can cause things to break down due to either mechanics not working or people having to bend or break the rules.
^^This.
There is a huge demographic of organized play who utilize these rules. The rules have to say what they mean or be clarified in such a way that everyone can turn to one common ruling for consistency. Under the previous ruling, there was a little confusion about what a few feats meant when they referred to "while mounted and using the charge action". However, with the FAQ and SKR's clarification, backed by the core mounted combat rules themselves, all the rules worked. Characters without animal companions had a bit less action economy, but still had a wide array of cool stuff they could do while mounted to make up for it. Mounted characters didn't lose action economy because they decided to sit on their companion instead of directing it to attack independently.
Now, anyone in PFS who is running a mounted character, and who purchased their mount or grabbed it through some means other than a class feature granting an animal companion, has to hope their GM is going to use the presumed RAI interpretations instead of the strict RAW (something that isn't done in PFS for consistency's sake) or they'll discover that they've wasted feats and abilities that don't do what they thought they did anymore. Spirited Charge doesn't work, or at best takes a round to "queue up" so you can use it on the following round, for anyone without an animal companion. Any Sohei who thought they could perform a mounted flurry with charge bonuses and the Mounted Skirmisher feat cannot. Really, since they were so unclear in the FAQ casters and archers can't even do their normal thing from the back of a charging mount, because the FAQ says that when the mount charges, they both are.
I'm pretty sure the devs have said that they don't write using language that can bear the kind of scrutiny we always subject it to in these debates.
At a certain point, if I'm analyzing specific wording to the point that things stop working, I tell myself I must be going too far with it.
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I'm pretty sure the devs have said that they don't write using language that can bear the kind of scrutiny we always subject it to in these debates.
At a certain point, if I'm analyzing specific wording to the point that things stop working, I tell myself I must be going too far with it.
And yet there's now a FAQ that was written to address a particular somewhat wonky phrase that broke / failed to fix out of one of the more complex subsystems in the game.
There was some lack of clarity on what a "mounted charge" constituted, that had been previously addressed by SKR and was referenced in FAQ and the rules.
Now mounted charge is very clear in the FAQ:
"Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?
Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge."
But it breaks everything else. It mentions a scenario about "when only the mount charges" but gives no provisions for how that scenario comes about. In the very first sentence it says that when making a charge while mounted both the rider and mount use the charge action. It failed to take into account the complex subsystem of skills which supported mounted combat, and now there is increased confusion and inconsistency there that needs to be addressed.
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Fun fact: you can charge without attacking.
Nothing in the rules requires you to command your mount to attack in order to make it charge.
Even if you interpret the Ride rules as not permitting you to direct your mount to attack with a Ride check (which, frankly, I don't), you can still direct it to charge without even making a check as long as you are the only one who attacks at the end of the charge.
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Fun fact: you can charge without attacking.
Nothing in the rules requires you to command your mount to attack in order to make it charge.
Even if you interpret the Ride rules as not permitting you to direct your mount to attack with a Ride check (which, frankly, I don't), you can still direct it to charge without even making a check as long as you are the only one who attacks at the end of the charge.
A Charge is a type of Special Attack. It's even listed as such in the Combat section which I linked right above. Even if your mount doesn't execute the attack at the end, you still have to command your mount to Charge as a move action.
I'm pretty sure the devs have said that they don't write using language that can bear the kind of scrutiny we always subject it to in these debates.
At a certain point, if I'm analyzing specific wording to the point that things stop working, I tell myself I must be going too far with it.
And yet there's now a FAQ that was written to address a particular somewhat wonky phrase that broke / failed to fix out of one of the more complex subsystems in the game.
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It failed to take into account the complex subsystem of skills which supported mounted combat, and now there is increased confusion and inconsistency there that needs to be addressed.
Totally, I'm not here saying it doesn't need to be addressed, or let's just bury our heads in the sand and it will go away. I get that this affects people's builds and particularly in organized play that can mean a huge investment of time, with no other place to get resolution but here. I'm not trying to stifle the discussion, what interests me is the possibility that there's a disconnect between the way the devs are thinking about the rules and writing them (and approaching faq's) versus the way a segment of the player base is reading and interpreting the rules and faq's.
In other words, let's all make sure we're not talking past each other.
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A Charge is a type of Special Attack. It's even listed as such in the Combat section which I linked right above. Even if your mount doesn't execute the attack at the end, you still have to command your mount to Charge as a move action.Fun fact: you can charge without attacking.
Nothing in the rules requires you to command your mount to attack in order to make it charge.
Even if you interpret the Ride rules as not permitting you to direct your mount to attack with a Ride check (which, frankly, I don't), you can still direct it to charge without even making a check as long as you are the only one who attacks at the end of the charge.
Incorrect. A charge is a "special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action." However, the rules are very clear: "after moving, you may make a single melee attack." There is no obligation to make the attack, and a charge is not an attack action or any variation thereof, it is a "special full-round action."
You can charge without attacking, you can order your mount to charge without ordering it to attack. Period.