How is going the balance of the endeless thread?
I am trying out a Rogue/Monk just for the challenge. So far he is pretty effective. He brings damage comparable to the fighter's and is shifting over into the role of debuffer.
I know that his damage will soon fall behind the other combat oriented classes, but that is why he is built to be a debuffer as well. I know that all of the casters love a target who has been sickened and shaken (-4 to saves anyone), and maybe blinded or entangled.
In short, he is a strong combatant at low levels and a major contributor by being a team player at later levels.
Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
By these threads I mean on paizo, not this thread. Rogue/monk remains a bit unusual and with a lot of opposition given the number of threads and posts against monks and against rogues. So "why not both" is an amusing choice.
Not much to gain? Skills, which the monk can be lacking in, sneak attack dice which can be used on a whole flurry if you set it up well, rogue talents and increasing your reflex quicker.
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Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
The thug ability to shaken/sickening their targets, I believe.
Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
By these threads I mean on paizo, not this thread. Rogue/monk remains a bit unusual and with a lot of opposition given the number of threads and posts against monks and against rogues. So "why not both" is an amusing choice.
Not much to gain? Skills, which the monk can be lacking in, sneak attack dice which can be used on a whole flurry if you set it up well, rogue talents and increasing your reflex quicker.
In my experience there are far fewer threads against monks now then there were in the past. This is in part due to the large number of nice thigns monks have recieved. There are still some fundamental issues (lack of good attack bonus, costs of amulet of mighty fists versus weapons, reliance on flurry, etc.). But those get easier and easier to address as time goes on.
This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.
As to what a monk gains from rogues? I don't see anything that you have listed as being very much compared to a level or two in, say, vivisectionist. In fact that sounds like a fun character concept for me to try sometime. I dunno, I just don't see much of an even exchange between the two.
The thug ability to shaken/sickening their targets, I believe.Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
See, now that's a good one.
Yeah they get a lot of good stuff. Making a monk last week I found a lot of options. Some very strong.
This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.
perhaps there is some preasure from paizo to not increase the power level of rogues.
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This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.perhaps there is some preasure from paizo to not increase the power level of rogues.
But why? The core barbarian wasn't very interesting either, but APG, UC and companions made them a viable class.
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The thug ability to shaken/sickening their targets, I believe.Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
My archetypes are Thug and Maneuver Master. My combat maneuver is Dirty Trick which I use to blind my opponent. Then I regular attack via Flurry of Maneuvers. :) No awkward positioning to get sneak attack for me.
At 3rd level the Thug can trade 1 die of sneak attack damage to sicken the target. Eventually I will have Cornegon Strike for even more gimping of the bad guys.
But why? The core barbarian wasn't very interesting either, but APG, UC and companions made them a viable class.This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.perhaps there is some preasure from paizo to not increase the power level of rogues.
Because...not sure., it woudl be an interesting topic for anew thread.
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This is Pathfinder. There is no balance.
Hell, that got rolled into acrobatics in 3.5 didn't it?
Because...not sure., it woudl be an interesting topic for anew thread.But why? The core barbarian wasn't very interesting either, but APG, UC and companions made them a viable class.This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.perhaps there is some preasure from paizo to not increase the power level of rogues.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qtkv?What-would-be-the-devs-opinion-on-the#1
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Would you trust a thief with nice things?But why? The core barbarian wasn't very interesting either, but APG, UC and companions made them a viable class.This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.perhaps there is some preasure from paizo to not increase the power level of rogues.
I would not trust a thief without nice things either.
Because...not sure., it woudl be an interesting topic for anew thread.But why? The core barbarian wasn't very interesting either, but APG, UC and companions made them a viable class.This is in contrast to the rogue who can't seem to get a freelancer to like him enough to throw him that bone.perhaps there is some preasure from paizo to not increase the power level of rogues.
Because the developer that design pathfinder rogues die for a rogue on a 3.5 play
I've done it. I've seen others do it. Without dying.Wizards, sorcerers and oracles don't need AC? ok..go with it and im sure the Wizards, sorcerers and oracles will die before the rogue.
Mirror image.
BAM! Better "AC" than a fighter.
This isn't even my final form.
Because the developer that design pathfinder rogues die for a rogue on a 3.5 play
He must have really loved that Rogue if he was willing to sacrifice himself so the Rogue could live...
Makes sense, though... "Damsel in Distress" is a role Rogues fill better than any other class, since they are so easy to neutralize.
All of the above naysayers are wrong. Period.
My rouge players routinely have the most fun and best moments in my games.
The objective in pathfinder is fun.
Therefor all your arguments against the rouge class are wrong.
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All of the above naysayers are wrong. Period.
My rouge players routinely have the most fun and best moments in my games. (And deal the most damage, period)
The objective in pathfinder is fun.
Therefor all your arguments against the rouge class are wrong.(The reason is probably that I'm a very rouge friendly GM and I set up terrain for the players to maneuver in. Also after seeing the rouge dish out gobs of damage the rest of my players are eager to help him do his thing.)
I see you love rouge, and probably make-up in general, but we are discussing the Rogue.
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Quote omitted.
Well if you guys can get the developers to remake the rouge so he can stand on his own 2 legs without dm and player assistance then I'm all for that. A rewrite of core is overdue.
My suggestion is a pool of point that let the rouge sneak attack whomever he wants X many times per day. No flanking or flat - foot required.
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All of the above naysayers are wrong. Period.
My rouge players routinely have the most fun and best moments in my games.
The objective in pathfinder is fun.
Therefor all your arguments against the rouge class are wrong.
Why do Rogue advocates keep parroting stuff like this? Who ever said Rogues can't be fun? All we said is that they are mechanically weak.
Really, that sort of logic is no more relevant to the discussion than the following quote:
All of the above naysayers are wrong. Period.
My commoner players routinely have the most fun and best moments in my games.
The objective in pathfinder is fun.
Therefor all your arguments against the commoner class are wrong.
How much fun one can have with a class has no bearing on how effective and/or well-designed its mechanics are.
I think there are some strong builds with Rogue in the build, I just don't know of any that are Rogue 20. Just last weekend I was talking with some players from my newest campaign and Sohei 1/ Bandit 4/ Cavalier 1 with Lookout is the build that stops surprise rounds cold from level 6 on.
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I would like to see the rogue have something only he can do.
Maybe we can say only the rogue class can talk like a pirate and use the word 'Bazinga'. Or maybe the rogue is the only character that can make a coin go back and forth over his hands.
I want the rogue to have a niche again! Since all the game mechanics niches are gone, give him a RP niche for FUN!
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I would like to see the rogue have something only he can do.
This has been the rogue's big problem all along and this will be his undoing.
First step to fix the rogue. Don’t make him a class you have to have in a party.
Two ratling rogues played as a single character would be interesting. 2D6 HD per level, baseline of 16 skill ranks, swarming means they have a pretty decent chance of making sneak attacks. The mediocre BAB could be offset by the fact that they both make attacks, volume of fire and all that.
Quote omitted.
Well if you guys can get the developers to remake the rouge so he can stand on his own 2 legs without dm and player assistance then I'm all for that. A rewrite of core is overdue.
My suggestion is a pool of point that let the rouge sneak attack whomever he wants X many times per day. No flanking or flat - foot required.
You might want to try out the Stalker class in the Path of War Playtest.
They get a Ki pool at 1st. They can spend one 1 point at 2nd level to apply their Deadly Strikes ability at all times for 1 rd.Deadly Strikes works thereafter they critical hit for Wis mod (each crit during this time extends duration). It deals +1d6 like sneak attack. If you have a higher Crit multiplier it increases in size (x3=1d8, x4=1d10).
You can take a Stalker Art (like a rogue Talent) so it also works vs denied dex/flatfoot if you want.
You can see Playtest text here:
http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=2972.html
There is a link there to PDF.
The thug ability to shaken/sickening their targets, I believe.Wow, rogue/monk is the most controversial build you could have on these threads, given the amount of hate for both.
Good luck!
If that's what you think then you haven't been paying much attention. Levels of monk would actually improve the rogue in this case.
Though it is debatable whether there's much to gain from rogue levels.
My archetypes are Thug and Maneuver Master. My combat maneuver is Dirty Trick which I use to blind my opponent. Then I regular attack via Flurry of Maneuvers. :) No awkward positioning to get sneak attack for me.
At 3rd level the Thug can trade 1 die of sneak attack damage to sicken the target. Eventually I will have Cornegon Strike for even more gimping of the bad guys.
I suggest Enforcer so your unarm strikes are nonlethal and free intimidate check: as thug boost duration of shaken effects.
Even better a through reading of Flurry of Maneuver says only maneuvers get -2 penalty not the unarmed attack rolls.
Maybe the use of the rogue will be like the small toe and our wisdom teeth. It will be used less and less over the years until it completely disappears due to there no longer being any need for it like our wisdom teeth and big toe.
I will mourn its passing, having seen the old school thief in action. But a newer generation with vivisection alchemists, bards, ninjas and cryptbreaker alchemists will forget there was ever a class called the rogue.
Honestly they should have broken the rogue into 2 classes. The rogue should have been broken into a "assassin" type class Like the slayer and the ninja and into a Thief type class, kind of like the Investigator, but preferably a class with a more thief focus.
With Bards, at what point DPR wise is their Inspire Courage and Spell buff output worth more than the comparable Sneak Attack?
Could it be level 7? Heroism for over an hour, Haste, +2 Inspire Courage?
+5/+2, +2 Save Bonus (+3 on Reflex), Extra Attack on Full Attack, +1 to AC, +30 Feet Movement...
I mean, that is a pretty beefy buff sequence to drop on a guy.
Is that stronger than 4d6 damage? I mean, I think it might be.
The thing about sneak attack and rogues that you have to remember is, the rogue needs to HIT the guy AND rogues need to reliably get sneak attack. Both of those things the rogue has a hard time doing, meaning sneak attack is actually not that great of an ability as a DPR increaser for the rogue. Do note, however, how I pointed out that I specifically called out the rogue. The best example showing the true strength of sneak attack comes not from the rogue but from the Alchemist. The Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist shows that, if you apply buffs with sneak attack and have reliable ways to get sneak attack (invisibility potions ftw), you can actually output HUGE amounts of damage with SA.
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@Atarlost : you should compare things that are comparable : compare to-hit, and the fact that the whole group benefits from the bard inspire/buffs, not only the bard.
Bards are really much more powerful in combat than rogues, and out of combat the difference is even greater.
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A better comparison would be one between a party + Bard and that same party + Rogue. Check which one is more effective... Or if you prefer, check how a Bard by himself fares compared to a Rogue by himself.
I'm very sure Bard wins both contests, at very least, from 6th level and beyond.