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Heres a nice rouge biased test. Imagine you want to steal something from a Noble's mannor house a crown or something. The house has dogs guards and possibly traps which class would you want for this mission. You are level 5.
There are that's a non-combat test that does not come up that often if some other class can do it better then a Rogues aren't just sub-pare they flat out suck.
Although I fully anticipate your response of "here's a spellcaster optimized for burglary, who has foregone combat and other utility spells specifically to be better than a rogue during this single mission," I'm going to go with rogue.
The reason being that even your average rogue, who has invested only in the iconic rogue skills, is going to have all the tools he needs to be successful at this mission. Could a wizard pull it off? Maybe, but my money is still on the rogue.
Melee to Hit: 7 BAB + 6 Strength +1 size + 1 Magical +1 weapon focus – 2 rogue talent -2 TWF = +12/+12/+7/+7 (+1 vs. a single target / day)
SO, you will just be rolling dice hoping to roll 18 in every single roll? Because that is totally how DPR DO NOT work.
Well, if you'd like a more thorough answer, a quick glance over the list of skills for both the bard and the rogue shows that the only class skills the Rogue gets that the Bard does not are Disable Device and Swim. In exchange, the Bard gets ALL Knowledge skills rather than just Dungeoneering and Local. The Rogue does get two more skill points by default but the Bard probably has better Intelligence since she's making knowledge checks for the party and all that.
You're going to have a very difficult time convincing me that Swim is going to show up enough for it to justify the existence of an entire class. As such, the only thing that the Rogue can really do better than the other skill monkey is finding and disabling traps. And the Bard is getting spells.
I'm pretty sure you're also completely forgetting the existence of Versatile Performance.
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Leaving the overall thrust of the thread aside, I do think there are some interesting tricks in Sarrah's build that probably deserve being in one of the rogue build advice thread rather than buried here where people looking for help with building rogues are unlikely to look.
In terms of rogues, my personal opinion is that the fundamental problem is the rogue talents themselves. If they genuinely made a massive difference to skill use and there were enough good ones to make getting ten of them seem worthwhile then a rogue could really shine. Hopefully the upcoming ACG will remedy this but at the moment I find archetypes like the archaeologist make a much more playable rogues than rogues themselves.
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As such, the only thing that the Rogue can really do better than the other skill monkey is finding and disabling traps. And the Bard is getting spells.
Okay, a more serious answer:
If you don't understand how important disable device is to a rogue (and to the party the rogue is in) and the significant boost the rogue gets when using it, maybe a rogue isn't for you.
That's actually a pretty good philosophy for this thread: If you don't see how all of the iconic rogue skills fit together into a fun/useful/powerful role, part of a balanced party, maybe a rogue isn't for you.
Heres a nice rouge biased test. Imagine you want to steal something from a Noble's mannor house a crown or something. The house has dogs guards and possibly traps which class would you want for this mission. You are level 5.
There are that's a non-combat test that does not come up that often if some other class can do it better then a Rogues aren't just sub-pare they flat out suck.
Although I fully anticipate your response of "here's a spellcaster optimized for burglary, who has foregone combat and other utility spells specifically to be better than a rogue during this single mission," I'm going to go with rogue.
The reason being that even your average rogue, who has invested only in the iconic rogue skills, is going to have all the tools he needs to be successful at this mission. Could a wizard pull it off? Maybe, but my money is still on the rogue.
What about inquisitor, rangers, magus or alchemits? They have the skill, the magic and the punch to do it.
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What about inquisitor, rangers, magus or alchemits? They have the skill, the magic and the punch to do it.
I think one or both of us has misunderstood the challenge provided. I don't see how any of the classes listed have all of the skills necessary to pull of a high profile burglary.
Then again, I'm presuming the challenge has one additional stipulation: You can't just kick in the door and kill every living thing in the house.
Maybe it's my mistake.
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I find it strange that some people are saying that it's okay to be bad at combat/out of combat if you are good at the other. All of the more effective classes are good at both.
Watching people pee on shoes is getting boring.
What about Dervish dance as a option?
Just pump Dex.
I know it would cost feats ect..especially with scimitar but I'm thinking it might end up worth it.
You're going to have a very difficult time convincing me that Swim is going to show up enough for it to justify the existence of an entire class. As such, the only thing that the Rogue can really do better than the other skill monkey is finding and disabling traps. And the Bard is getting spells.
Trapfinding trait for that. Or just use one of the several archetyeps tahts have trapfinding.
What about inquisitor, rangers, magus or alchemits? They have the skill, the magic and the punch to do it.I think one or both of us has misunderstood the challenge provided. I don't see how any of the classes listed have all of the skills necessary to pull of a high profile burglary.
Then again, I'm presuming the challenge has one additional stipulation: You can't just kick in the door and kill every living thing in the house.
Maybe it's my mistake.
Well, taht is fine.
People can post build to show you incorrect, but that will only work if you post some numbers too.
Trapfinding trait for that. Or just use one of the several archetyeps tahts have trapfinding.
You're going to have a very difficult time convincing me that Swim is going to show up enough for it to justify the existence of an entire class. As such, the only thing that the Rogue can really do better than the other skill monkey is finding and disabling traps. And the Bard is getting spells.
I'm discounting the trait because it's an opportunity cost the Rogue doesn't have to take.
Archaeologist is definitely a "if you wanted to be a Rogue just be me instead" archetype, though...
A Bard pulling off the burglary would have spells to back up all of the relevant skills (or vice versa), and would be far better at swaying someone in the house over to his side.
What is the Rogue doing while "waiting for the right time to strike"? Most combats only last a few rounds, so if you're not laying down damage or casting spells, what are you doing?
That "because" was supposed to be an "if". The cane sword/deadly duelist build I gave for an example was supposed to be me saying "look, this is something I'd gladly do even though it's kinda crappy in most situations just because it's awesome".
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Here's another thought for everyone: Rogues are often called "opportunists," meaning they look for situations where they can get a deadly attack in, pick a heavy pocket, or vanish into the shadows.
Well, part of that implies sometimes creating opportunities.
If you're in a campaign that seems to just be one battlefield after the next, strung together with a linear story of good versus evil, maybe that's not the best game in which to play a rogue. Or, if your DM is savvy and can think on his feet, maybe that's your queue to make some opportunities...
Don't just sit there like the party fighter, waiting for the next initiative to get rolled. Do something! I'll bet that barkeep has a lock box in the back room. Who's the richest person in this stopover town, anyway? Maybe instead of paying the gate fare, you could pock pocket the key off of a guard and the party can come back after dusk to save a few coins.
I think I've talked myself into playing a rogue in my next game. :)
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I think I've talked myself into playing a rogue in my next game. :)
Why don't you just go ahead and do that? Might be an eye opener.
Here's another thought for everyone: Rogues are often called "opportunists," meaning they look for situations where they can get a deadly attack in, pick a heavy pocket, or vanish into the shadows.
Well, part of that implies sometimes creating opportunities.
If you're in a campaign that seems to just be one battlefield after the next, strung together with a linear story of good versus evil, maybe that's not the best game in which to play a rogue. Or, if your DM is savvy and can think on his feet, maybe that's your queue to make some opportunities...
Don't just sit there like the party fighter, waiting for the next initiative to get rolled. Do something! I'll bet that barkeep has a lock box in the back room. Who's the richest person in this stopover town, anyway? Maybe instead of paying the gate fare, you could pock pocket the key off of a guard and the party can come back after dusk to save a few coins.
I think I've talked myself into playing a rogue in my next game. :)
You shouldn't play a Rogue in an adventure path?
Here's another thought for everyone: Rogues are often called "opportunists," meaning they look for situations where they can get a deadly attack in, pick a heavy pocket, or vanish into the shadows.
Well, part of that implies sometimes creating opportunities.
If you're in a campaign that seems to just be one battlefield after the next, strung together with a linear story of good versus evil, maybe that's not the best game in which to play a rogue. Or, if your DM is savvy and can think on his feet, maybe that's your queue to make some opportunities...
Don't just sit there like the party fighter, waiting for the next initiative to get rolled. Do something! I'll bet that barkeep has a lock box in the back room. Who's the richest person in this stopover town, anyway? Maybe instead of paying the gate fare, you could pock pocket the key off of a guard and the party can come back after dusk to save a few coins.
I think I've talked myself into playing a rogue in my next game. :)
I don't see anything here a Bard can't do just as well. Bards get Sleight of Hand as a class skill. The only innate thing about the Rogue that makes her better than the Bard at stealing is being able to pick up Improved Steal as a rogue talent... The +2 is nice but isn't that big of a deal and not provoking an AoO isn't going to matter when you're stealing in a non-combat situation.
You are aware you can roleplay a Bard as a crafty sneakthief, right?
EDIT: Wait... Does Improved Steal even affect anything outside of combat? It's listed as a combat maneuver and doesn't show any interaction with the Sleight of Hand check to lift an object off of someone. If so that's dumb.
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Don't just sit there like the party fighter, waiting for the next initiative to get rolled. Do something! I'll bet that barkeep has a lock box in the back room. Who's the richest person in this stopover town, anyway? Maybe instead of paying the gate fare, you could pock pocket the key off of a guard and the party can come back after dusk to save a few coins.
What if I don't want to be a thief?
This is normally the part when someone argues that ninjas are rogues and that comparing archetypes to rogues without considering the ninja a rogue is unfair.
The Bard could simply have gained anti-trap ability with a trait. At-will Detect Magic makes him a lot better at finding them, if they are magical. And he can actually Dispel magical barriers and alarms without expensive scrolls and UMD checks.
A Rogue would never even see a simple first-level Alarm spell, and if it's of the silent variety, he would never even know he had set it off.
