Do Rogues just flat out suck?


Advice

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Headfirst wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Wizards and Bards, and many other spellcasting classes have many ways available to completely negate the risky skill rolls.

Scouting?: Imp familiar. Faerie Dragon familiar. [Insert X familier here]. Invisibility on yourself. Summon a Dretch demon or a Mephit
Gathering Information?: A whole slew of divination spells and all that int synergy that wizards have. If you need to directly negotiate with someone? Charm Person. Charm Monster. Summon a Lantern Archon to make some diplomacy checks for you.
Infiltration? Invsibility. Disguise Self. Glibness for Bards. Simulacrums. Etherealness. Dimension door.
Overcoming obstacles? Fly. Alter Self. Beast/Dragon/Plant/Vermin Shape.
Locked Doors, Chests, Traps? Knock.

Congratulations, you've gimped your wizard or bard to give them the ability to emulate a rogue's skill selection. Now, for a few rounds or minutes each day, they can emulate something a rogue can do all day.

What do you do when the party turns to your wizard and says "alright, cast enlarge person on our fighter, please" and you can only reply "uh, sorry, I memorized disguise self instead because I thought it might come in handy" or when they ask you to cast web to deal with charging orcs, you shrug and say "how about knock?"

  • 1. No competant wizard memorizes all their spell slots full at the start of a day. Prepare haste, leave a spot open for knock.
  • 2. There is no limit to the number of spells a wizard can know, save for book space. Having situational utility spells doesn't weaken wizards like it can a sorcerer (barring paragon surge)
  • 3. Scrolls.
  • 4. I've never seen or heard of an adventure where I have to unlock doors, climb walls, or talk to people for the entire day. The use of skills, like combat, is often done in short bursts perfect for spells to be used.
  • 5. If your argument for why the wizard doesn't do the rogue's niche is that it gimps the wizard, that's not an argument in favor of the rogue not being bad.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

If nothing else, look at my rogue and tell me where I've gone wrong.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
If nothing else, look at my rogue and tell me where I've gone wrong.

You made him a Rogue.

Shadow Lodge

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Lemmy wrote:
You made him a Rogue.

Not exactly helpful. Funny, but not helpful.


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rorek55 wrote:
Sarrah wrote:

Rogues, when built correctly, are the 2nd highest damaging class in the game. It is just that most people do not know how to build rogues.

I built a L11 rogue not too long ago that could do 300+ DPR.

Can you post that here please?

Halfling Scout (Rogue Archetype) L10 / Sohei (Monk Archetype) 1 (25 Point build)

(16) 14 Str (L4 and L8): 16 Str (22)
Rest of the stats don’t matter

Sohei:
Devoted Guardian: Always act in surprise round; Flurry of Blows; Improved Unarmed Attack;

Scout:
Scouts Charge, Skirmisher, (explained below right before attack)

Halfling Alternate Racial:
Swift as Shadows Halflings possess incredible stealth even while moving through obstructed areas. Halflings with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5, and reduce the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10. This racial trait replaces sure-footed. (move 5 feet less than full movement at no penalty)

Skills:
Stealth (11+3+3+4-1)
Perception (11+wis+5+2)
Survival (11+wis+3): (+5 tracking)
Climb (positioning)
Handle Animal (11+wis+3)
Acrobatics (jump – tight rope walking – balance: positioning, at least 3 ranks)
Bluff (11+cha+3) (+2 feint)
Escape Artist (11+dex+3)
Ride (11+dex+3)

Feats:
TWF (reduce penalty, extra offhand attack)
Improved TWF (extra offhand attack)
Sap Adept (+20 D)
Sap Master (+5d6 sneak attack)
Mounted Skirmisher (mount moves up to full speed, you get all attacks) (Sohei bonus feat)
Mounted Combat (negate 1 hit against mount by rolling ride check above attack roll) (Rogue Talent feat)
Knockout Artist (+1 damage per sneak attack dice rolled)
Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (+1 to hit)

Rogue Talents:
Powerful Sneak (-2 to hit, all 1s on sneak attack becomes 2s)
Bleeding Attack (10 bleed damage)
(UC) Ninja Trick (Pressure Point) (+1 Dex damage per hit, no save)
Fast Stealth (move at full speed w/o stealth penalty)
Combat Trick (Mounted Combat)

Advanced Rogue Talent:
Deadly Sneak (all 1s and 2s on sneak attack become 3s)

Equipment:
Belt of Giant Strength (+6)
Vest of Vengeful Tracker (+2 damage per attack that has been successfully tracked)
Lens of Detection (+5 perception and +5 tracking (survival))
Sandals of Quick Reaction (both move and attack in surprise round)
Stalker’s Mask (+1 A/D against a single target / day)
Dead Man’s Headband (+5 CMD vs sunder and steal, +2 intimidate, some other stuff)
Magical +1 Mithral Breastplate (agile)
Magical +1 Composite Longbow (adaptative: +6 Strength)
Quickchange Cloak (take nat 20s making a disguise, use those rolls later)
Bag of Holding 1
Deliquescent Gloves
Amulet of Mighty Fist 2 (+1 Magical and Corrosive)
13,000 g – the cost of a mount
A Mount

*Mount has to move at least 10 feet or charge for the enemy to be treated as if they were flat footed,
OR you move at least 10 feet or charge for the enemy to be treated as if they were flat footed,
OR the rogue has to be flanking to get sneak attack;

4 attacks with sneak attack
Melee to Hit: 7 BAB + 6 Strength +1 size + 1 Magical +1 weapon focus – 2 rogue talent -2 TWF = +12/+12/+7/+7 (+1 vs. a single target / day)
4 attacks: 1d4 elbow + 10d6 sneak attack +37 (20 sap adept + 6 strength +1 magical +10 when opponent denied dex / flat footed)) +10 bleed+d6 acid +d6 cold +1 DEX ((nonlethal) minimum: 280 +10 bleed +4 DEX/average: 326 + 10 bleed + 4 DEX/maximum: 452 + 10 bleed + 4 DEX) (+8 Damage against creatures that have been tracked) (+4 Damage against a single target /day)

1 attack
Moving 10 feet to get 1 sneak attack is more damage than full attack not sneak attacking – not to mention hitting flat footed AC is easier, +14 to hit (+1 to hit against a single target / day), ((nonlethal) Minimum 70 + 10 bleed + 1 DEX, Average 81.5 + 10 bleed + 1 DEX, Maximum 113 + 10 Bleed + 1 DEX) (+2 Damage against creatures that have been tracked) (+1 Damage against a single target / day)

Dark Archive

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TOZ wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
You made him a Rogue.
Not exactly helpful. Funny, but not helpful.

Just like the rogue.


Jadeite wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
You made him a Rogue.
Not exactly helpful. Funny, but not helpful.
Just like the rogue.

Heh. This made me lol.


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Sarrah wrote:
Melee to Hit: 7 BAB + 6 Strength +1 size + 1 Magical +1 weapon focus – 2 rogue talent -2 TWF = +12/+12/+7/+7 (+1 vs. a single target / day)

And here is where the build falls apart. Good luck hitting anything.

EDIT: I remember when these thread were actually interesting. It's basically just shooting fish in a bucket now.


Indeed Average AC around that point is 26. +12 isn't going to hit anything with any form of reliability


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Gather Information is now part of Diplomacy, so the party Paladin just might be a better spymaster than the Rogue.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Indeed Average AC around that point is 26. +12 isn't going to hit anything with any form of reliability

What is the average AC when the enemy is denied their dexterity?


Sarrah wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Indeed Average AC around that point is 26. +12 isn't going to hit anything with any form of reliability
What is the average AC when the enemy is denied their dexterity?

Hard to say. If you're fighting a wizard or high dex creature? Probably much smaller. If you're fighting something with high natural armor or lots of armor and a shield, the difference probably won't be that great.


23


Sarrah wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Indeed Average AC around that point is 26. +12 isn't going to hit anything with any form of reliability
What is the average AC when the enemy is denied their dexterity?

Surprisingly... Now as low as I hoped. Most enemies rely more on armor and natural armor than on Dex. Very often, flat-footed will mean a -1 or -2 to AC. Maybe a -3. :(

But even if it causes a -5 to AC, that's still an average AC of 20 for CR 11 enemies, so you'll still be missing almost half the time with your primary attack.


Removing TWF and ITWF and grabbing any other 2 feats turns that build into 3 attacks per round at +14/+14/+9 against enemies denied their dexterity.


Sarrah wrote:
Removing TWF and ITWF and grabbing any other 2 feats turns that build into 3 attacks per round at +14/+14/+9 against enemies denied their dexterity.

Without TWF, you can't use Two-Weapon Feint, though... That means Feinting devours your action economy.


The deny dex comes from scout abilities, not feinting.


Sarrah wrote:
The deny dex comes from scout abilities, not feinting.

You damage them as if they were flat footed. The ability doesn't let you hit them as if they were flat footed.


That is a very interesting build, though it really only comes online with Trick Riding at level 9.

How are you maintaining your mount? I don't see anything like Nature's Bond etc... If you're riding on a normal riding dog then this build seems absurdly fragile.


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Heres a nice rouge biased test. Imagine you want to steal something from a Noble's mannor house a crown or something. The house has dogs guards and possibly traps which class would you want for this mission. You are level 5.

There are that's a non-combat test that does not come up that often if some other class can do it better then a Rogues aren't just sub-pare they flat out suck.


Well damn,I know I hate it when that happends.


Nothing worse than when I lay out some smack talk and then blumder into it with my own face,makes me suddenly wonder what's on TV.


Sindalla wrote:

Okay, look, the bottom line is, if rogue's sucked as bad as everyone is making them out to, no one would play them.

People still play them because they don't "suck."

That is bad logic.

But I concede your point. In really low optimization games no classes sucks, some can be terrilbe traps (monk) but no one sucks.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sindalla wrote:
Okay, look, the bottom line is, if rogue's sucked as bad as everyone is making them out to, no one would play them.
Players are not as rational as you make them out to be.

people

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