Ladies and Gentlemen: It's time we made the rogue work.


Advice

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So I think most people that respond or discuss optimization here on the advice boards more or less agree that if it comes down to a question of things a rogue can do there's usually a class or ability that straight up blows the class out of the water. When compared to it's relative spellcasting equivalents; the alchemist, the bard, or the inquisitor one finds it extraordinarily difficult to justify playing a rogue concept when any of the other three or a ranger would do just better and without the vast limitations put on the class by sneak attack and a host of issues regarding finding hit bonuses.

Today, we will setting out to make the class work.

I think a lot of the problems for the class do not stem from the class itself as much as it stems from preconceptions of the player. Finnesse fighting just isn't that good. Neither is two weapon fighting. A class that's lightly armored has little to no business rushing forward into an enemy to get full attacks. Frankly, even without the rogue attached none of this feels like a good idea. But anyway let's stop rambling and get on to the business.

First the goal

I'm going to make our goal here as clear as possible. We wish to make a rogue (PURE rogue) that can perform roguish functions while dealing enough damage in combat to be on par with his spellcasting peers (bards, aclehmists, etc.). We do not want to surpass them as that may prove more difficult than it's worth.

Dipping is allowed but only like one or two levels the overall strength of the build should be founded on the rogue not a level of fighter or gunslinger.

Our tools

Just so we have a common ground to work with here keep things paizo published, and 20pt. buy.

Builds posted if any must be functional at all levels and try to come to fruition at or before 10th level (because we want to talk to the pfs crowd as well)

Our challenges

Let's look at our troubles.

Saves: We have one good save. And it's reflex. This is bad for us. PArticularly since we don't have an in-class method of reliably increasing them

To overcome this we must either make our other saves work or else make it so the other saves don't matter.

Sneak Attack: It does not increase on a crit and requires us to be flanking a target or catching them flat footed. This wouldn't be so bad except it's also our main source of damage.

To overcome this we must either produce a constant situation where the enemy is flat footed or make it to where sneak attack is a secondary source of damage.

Low attack: Unlike our brothers in the 3/4 bab range we ahve no means to increase our attack rolls. Even the monk can spend a ki point and get an okay boost to attacks. Rogues are forced to rely on positioning which is not a province of the rogue.

To overcome this we'll have to figure out how to get the most out of our attack to ensure that our sneak attacks even hit. Otherwise we will not be doing damage.

Skills and abilities It's extremely difficult to find something the rogue can do that a single casting of a spell can't do better.

To overcome this we need to make a rogue that's unique in the sense they can't be replaced with a spell or an eidolon. Being replaced with another class doesn't count since we can mix and match classes like this anyway (barbarians for paladins, sorcerers for wizards etc.).

Our agreement.

Please no snark, and no negativity. Saying things like "the best rogue is a ninja/bard/alchemist/eidolon" is unproductive to the discussion. We're not here to talk about how the rogue sucks. We're here about how to make the rogue awesome.

On the flipside don't talk about the awesomeness of rogues without throwing up some mechanics. And if you do throw up some mechanics don't do things like take two levels of rogue and call that a good show of the class.

And please, no anecdotes like "a good player can make the rogue work" that's unhelpful too. Because such a statement lacks context.

Our Purpose

Ultimately what we want to do is make the class function so it's an absolutely welcome addition to a group rather than a regretful one on part of the player.

Anyway let the brainstorming and debate commence. I'll be posting my thoughts in a second post so as to not clutter up this one. What we want is a collection of ideas and builds that can be referenced as means to make the class work and work well.


Give them 1d10 hit points and the BAB of a fighter. With all the cool the new abilities for the fighter, paladin, barbarian, and ranger it would not hurt a thing.


Arnwolf wrote:
Give them 1d10 hit points and the BAB of a fighter. With all the cool the new abilities for the fighter, paladin, barbarian, and ranger it would not hurt a thing.

That's not really helpful. Besides if that's what I wanted this would have been in the homebrew forum. :)


I have been looking at the rogue tricks snapshot underhanded. I'm currently playing a bandit on this model. But the character is only lvl 3 so I don't know if this works in the long run. Personally I don't see many issues with rogues provided they are in the right group.


The Rogue should be the melee debuffer. If they do decent damage but inhibit the target, they fill a useful role in combat.


Helic wrote:
The Rogue should be the melee debuffer. If they do decent damage but inhibit the target, they fill a useful role in combat.

So how do we go about doing that?


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One of the problems with the Rogue is that they have trap finding, and traps are mostly worthless as they stand right now.

Fix the trap, and you'll fix the trap finder.

link


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Here's something I tried. Look to the ninja for some inspiration.

First, the rogue gets a pool of points at 2nd level I've been calling a "wits" pool. The pool is equal to half rogue level plus intelligence modifier and allows the rogue to do the following as a swift action.

1. gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC or reflex saves for one round
2. treat an opponent as vulnerable to sneak attack for one attack only (even if the target is not normally vulnerable to sneak attack)
3. Gain a bonus to a single skill roll or ability check equal to half rogue level (minimum 1) for one round.

Next, I really revised all the rogue talents. They need a lot of help but have potential. Some do not need changing but almost all need a revision of some kind. They should really give rogues an advantage they could not have just by gaining feats. I made the rogue talent "finesse rogue" not only grant the feat but the rogue deals damage with finessable weapons based on dex as well.

That's what I tried.


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I really should have put down that this is in the interest of using optimization to work out how to make them effective.

Not in creating home brew rules.

Dark Archive

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TarkXT wrote:
Helic wrote:
The Rogue should be the melee debuffer. If they do decent damage but inhibit the target, they fill a useful role in combat.
So how do we go about doing that?

Unarmed strike or the Bludgeoner feat combined with the Enforcer feat pulls off shaken. Add the cruel enhancement to the weapon and you've got shaken and sickened. Give the rogue Shatter Defences and you have synergy with your Sneak Attack. Add Crippling Strike and you can inflict a net -5 to attack rolls (-2 shaken, -2 sickened, -1 Strength damage), -3 on melee damage, and -4 on saving throws with two attacks, providing both hit.

Accuracy is trickier, and is best solved with enhancements that are easier to find from other classes. A rogue that can cast from scrolls of heroism, making use of a high Strength or Dexterity score, and using the menacing enhancement (hopefully combined with Outflank), can hit reliably.

However, the issue is that a fighter does all of this better. Before the people come out with the "But the rogue has more skills" argument, the ranger also does this better, and he's only two skill points behind.

In the end, I see the rogue as a convenient go-to for a number of feats rivaling the fighter, while filling up some important skills. That doesn't make it a good class though, and all the optimization in the world won't make me wonder why we couldn't have just gone Urban Ranger.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, sneak attack is the rogue's main source of damage. However, the damage being predicated on flanking and flat-footedness is what balances out the damage. Because it's a LOT of damage. If a rogue got that all the time, every time, it would be insane. It requires him to strategize, optimize feats, think, and work with his teammates. The rogue in Pathfinder is far & above what it was in previous editions of the game. Any problems stem from player-imposed roles or conceptions/misconceptions. The game isn't the rules. The game is a player-driven story, the rules are just a facilitator. I love rogues. They are great. Don't need "fixing". They already were fixed when they carried over from 3.5 to now.


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My first suggestion would be the Scout Archetype.

The Archetype gives up Uncanny Dodge (which admittedly, is a heck of a loss).

The Archetype gains (4th level) the ability to sneak attack after a charge and (8th level) the ability to sneak attack if they move more than 10 feet.

This makes the process of getting into positioning much less painful as you'll be able to make one sneak attack a round while getting there.

The AC loss from charging can be mitigated by Offensive Defense. Charging Hurler and Opening Volley become interesting options.

I've seen a fair bit of talk about kukri's and crits, but it doesn't seem like crits are a good way to build a class with 3/4 BAB with no way to buff its hit chance and a reliance on precision damage. These builds will sacrifice a feat for proficiency in the kukri and then proceed towards two-weapon fighting.

What about dropping the kukri and instead picking up Improved Unarmed Strike? This opens up the Brawling enchant for an additional +2 untyped bonus to unarmed attack and damage. The +2 hit will negate the two weapon fighting penalty and the +2 damage on every hit should more than outweigh the DPR difference between a punch/kick and a kukri.

Can Rogues pick up advanced ninja tricks? Would they be able to pick up Unarmed Mastery? Even if not, a combination of Monk's robe and the Brawling enchant should put unarmed well ahead of the Kukri while simultaneously allowing the unarmed rogue to layer on a bit more hit bonus which will help them land sneak attacks.

Liberty's Edge

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Half-Orc. High strength, dumping intelligence and charisma. 18 14 14 8 14 7 Trade ferocity off for the bonus from saves. Pick up the trait that gives +1 to luck bonuses, favored class bonuses to hp - probably the most basic, functional build. 7 skill points is plenty to pick up the typical rogue skills.

Bandit archetype, the feat that allows intimidation on melee strikes, and the feat that allows strength bonuses in place of charisma on intimidation. (Pretty sure that's a feat.)

ETA: Apparently the feat only works on non-lethal strikes. That means giving up the falchion if you go that route. Still, it could work theoretically.


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Bludgeoner, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Power Attack with Furious Focus. Add Enforcer, dreadful carnage (will come late though), Dazzling Dissplay and Shatter Defences for nice intimidate effects. Scout/Thug is probably the strongest combination, using an Earth breaker if you can get proficiency or a heavy flail as a chain fighter half orc. Skulking slayer is also strong, but Vital Strike cannot be used in charges and I really like it with the earthbreaker. Eldrich Heritage (Orc) will also give a big damage boost.

An alternative could be a monk dip for improved unarmed style instead of bludgeoner. A MoMS monk will give you snake and/or crane style too. A Ninja goes unarmed better though.


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Ched Greyfell wrote:
Yes, sneak attack is the rogue's main source of damage. However, the damage being predicated on flanking and flat-footedness is what balances out the damage. Because it's a LOT of damage. If a rogue got that all the time, every time, it would be insane. It requires him to strategize, optimize feats, think, and work with his teammates. The rogue in Pathfinder is far & above what it was in previous editions of the game. Any problems stem from player-imposed roles or conceptions/misconceptions. The game isn't the rules. The game is a player-driven story, the rules are just a facilitator. I love rogues. They are great. Don't need "fixing". They already were fixed when they carried over from 3.5 to now.

Unfortunately none of that is particularly helpful to anyone. And please don't go on about how the rules don't matter. We're here to work within the rules. Not make new ones. Not toss them out and live in happy free form land. But to use them to our ends.

Instead of telling us that we're wrong. Explain why we're wrong. With mechanics to back you up. Tell us what you do and be specific. What's your group doing that others aren't? How are you building your rogue to what tactics and what strategies? Since sneak attack does a lot of damage (personally I'd rather have 1 extra damage that worked with crits than +1d6 damage every other level) how do we get that damage to work for us often and consistently?


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Rogues who throw daggers do amazing amounts of damage.


A 1 Level dip into a certain inquisitor archetype fixes almost all of the rogues problems :p


TarkXT wrote:
To overcome this we must either produce a constant situation where the enemy is flat footed or make it to where sneak attack is a secondary source of damage.

There are lots of ways around this. What is your current party level?


Mapleswitch wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
To overcome this we must either produce a constant situation where the enemy is flat footed or make it to where sneak attack is a secondary source of damage.
There are lots of ways around this. What is your current party level?

All of them. At once. Go wild. This is about all rogues at every level so every neat trick and solid build posted here is useful to look at as a reference to make an effective rogue. :)

Liberty's Edge

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TarkXT wrote:
Ched Greyfell wrote:
Yes, sneak attack is the rogue's main source of damage. However, the damage being predicated on flanking and flat-footedness is what balances out the damage. Because it's a LOT of damage. If a rogue got that all the time, every time, it would be insane. It requires him to strategize, optimize feats, think, and work with his teammates. The rogue in Pathfinder is far & above what it was in previous editions of the game. Any problems stem from player-imposed roles or conceptions/misconceptions. The game isn't the rules. The game is a player-driven story, the rules are just a facilitator. I love rogues. They are great. Don't need "fixing". They already were fixed when they carried over from 3.5 to now.

Unfortunately none of that is particularly helpful to anyone. And please don't go on about how the rules don't matter. We're here to work within the rules. Not make new ones. Not toss them out and live in happy free form land. But to use them to our ends.

Instead of telling us that we're wrong. Explain why we're wrong. With mechanics to back you up. Tell us what you do and be specific. What's your group doing that others aren't? How are you building your rogue to what tactics and what strategies? Since sneak attack does a lot of damage (personally I'd rather have 1 extra damage that worked with crits than +1d6 damage every other level) how do we get that damage to work for us often and consistently?

This:

Ched Greyfell wrote:
The game isn't the rules. ... I love rogues.

didn't tell you everything you needed to know? All we have to do to make rogues viable is not use the rules of the game.


Mapleswitch wrote:
A 1 Level dip into a certain inquisitor archetype fixes almost all of the rogues problems :p

What archetype is that?


Mapleswitch wrote:
Rogues who throw daggers do amazing amounts of damage.

I tend to prefer a Fighter for a dagger throwing build, as they can accumulate the necessary feats more quickly.

I'm curious to see your dagger throwing Rogue build, though.


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As for creating perpetual flat-footedness, isn't that what improved feint is for?


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Heretic: Judgement (Escape): melee or shoot someone in the face to rehide during combat with no penalty to stealth (so the next attack you can sneak attack). There are two other bonus features at L1.


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I've been thinking about feinght specialist rogues but have yet to try to build one. the theory is that rogue have skills as a resource so perhaps it should abuse rules that apply skills to combat, such as dazzling display or feints. is there a list if available abilities like that?


Dotting.

hopefully we will see good builds.

Liberty's Edge

Mapleswitch wrote:
Heretic: Judgement (Escape): melee or shoot someone in the face to rehide during combat with no penalty to stealth (so the next attack you can sneak attack). There are two other bonus features at L1.

You mean:

Quote:
Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

So not only can you only do the trick against one enemy a day it eats a move action every time. That's not great.

You do bring up a good point though, are we allowed to dip? Personally I'm a big fan of a barbarian dip on a rogue. (Or a samurai dip for that matter.)


One or two level dips is fine as long as the end result can undoubtedly be called a rogue.


The escape judgement is useless unless i'm completely misreading it.

It requires an attack, so you burn your standard action before you can use it. It then lets you create a diversion as a Move, leaving you with a swift (can't move without a certain wondrous item) and a 5ft step, which you must be able to get to cover/concealment with in order to keep the stealth active until the next round. If you could 5ft step into cover or concealment, you didn't need the diversion in the first place.


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I would dump Strength and go high Intelligence and Dex take the derv dance feat and roll into duelist, This wont solve all the damage issues but will give you enough AC to be a front liner.


TarkXT wrote:
One or two level dips is fine as long as the end result can undoubtedly be called a rogue.

THe two builds I have in my mind have 3 levels of fighters.

By the way, agaisnt what will this buidls be compared?.


stonewall wrote:
I would dump Strength and go high Intelligence and Dex take the derv dance feat and roll into duelist, This wont solve all the damage issues but will give you enough AC to be a front liner.

That or an Agile enchant were my line of thinking too.


Nicos wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
One or two level dips is fine as long as the end result can undoubtedly be called a rogue.

THe two builds I have in my mind have 3 levels of fighters.

By the way, agaisnt what will this buidls be compared?.

Mainly the equivalents; bards, alchemists, inquisitors and the like.

We're not out to compete in combat ability with the ranger. And it's unlikely we'll ever outskill the bard but we may be able to find a happy medium and work from there.


Combat Expertise --> Gang Up : You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.


TarkXT wrote:
Helic wrote:
The Rogue should be the melee debuffer. If they do decent damage but inhibit the target, they fill a useful role in combat.
So how do we go about doing that?

Using RAW? Not quite sure - it wasn't clear you weren't wish-listing for next-generation Rogues. Ideally Dirty Trick, but relying on CMB on a 3/4 BAB class is a tough road. Crit feat builds are late game. As someone mentioned, the Sap Adept/Master is decent, as knocking things out is as good as killing them (or better!). But that's not really debuffing.

A Fighter dip to run into the Shield Slam line of feats offers potential for Sneak Attack damage and knocking things around.

Some of the problems with the Rogue could be solved if Feinting was re-written to be more viable. One idea I had was to allow a Feint attempt to take the place of an attack (standard or iterative); if the Feint succeeds you get an Attack of Opportunity on a Dex-denied opponent. Combat Reflexes would pretty much be a must with that, but that's really not a problem.


I just dont understand the rogue hate, have you tried a gang-up scout/thug rogue with a reach weapon (or DW) in a party with players playing as a team? God help them if you have a summoner or a reach weapon user. It's pretty ridiculous damage.


Lastoth wrote:
I just dont understand the rogue hate, have you tried a gang-up scout/thug rogue with a reach weapon (or DW) in a party with players playing as a team? God help them if you have a summoner or a reach weapon user. It's pretty ridiculous damage.

Well give us some numbers and we'll see if that changes some minds. :)


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Helic wrote:


Using RAW? Not quite sure - it wasn't clear you weren't wish-listing for next-generation Rogues.

I figured the fact that my entire post revolved around using the rules and talking about builds and the fact it was on the advice forum and not the homebrew forum or general discussion would all have been clues enough.

Obviously judging by all the house rule posts that was just not true.


I'm thinking catfolk scout with nimble striker and claw pounce can get really funny.


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A player in my RotRL game did a duelist. Nothing too fancy, just the feint feat chain, really. Most of the feats were various utility things, not to be a one-trick pony I guess. So if you're looking for optimization, I'm sure there's something out there.

The ranger PC (same campaign, different player) did more damage with full attacks, but the rogue did more damage with single attacks. So the rogue did better with more, but lower HP enemies.

I think. In any case, duelist is worth looking into into more detail.


Holy reading comprehension 0_0


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Grimmy wrote:
Holy reading comprehension 0_0

I have only myself to blame.


^ Me? Well, duelist is rogue-themed. If it doesn't count, then I don't know what to say. I tried a rogue myself, but I made all manner of mistakes, so I can't offer any other meaningful input other than my experience with GMing a [prestiged] rogue PC. Not a solution to everyone's problems, but data are data, right?

Edit: might not actually have been a duelist. I still have access to the character sheet (it's a formula one, not the easiest to read impatiently), not seeing any duelist features. I could have sworn "duelist" was being slung around back then. Well, my memory sucks.


I'm pretty sure he was referring to the people making homebrew posts and ideas for a new rogue class.

But honestly now I don't know.

Oh god he's a wizard who just cast confusion!

*gibbers incoherently*

Shadow Lodge

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Lastoth wrote:
I just dont understand the rogue hate.

I understand it: people insist on making human rogues with high strength, low intelligence, low charisma, and moderate dexterity, then wonder why tackling the dragon head-on doesn't work.

Obviously it must be a problem with the class.


then show the high dex, high cha and hig int rogue that fight great and is better out of comtat than th other classes.

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