Don't be mean, AvH. They did tell us in what kind of situation Rogues can shine: When the party is inside a huge AMF with no visible enemies or any other threat anywhere to be seen, except for the low Perception DC magic traps that are inexplicably immune to AMF.He uses the exact same argument the one arguing the monk is not underpowered use : "Don't try to make him fight, it's not his role !"
But when you ask what IS his role, then you don't have anyone to answer.
Even then, the bard or alchemist is better.
Stop trying to make the rogue fight, rogue isn´t a combatant class.So what am I doing wrong?
I think many people miss that that profile is a character. Thus the lack of responses.
It's not so much the build, just do a basic archery build and situation. If you are with in 30' and you beat your opponents initiative on the 1st round, easily done with some rogue talents like surprise attack or snapshot. Then the rogue get their sneak attack on a surprise round if any and the 1st round of combat. It works but is situational. I rarely find you are 30' from a target when combat begins. Now if there is way to extend that 30' range for sneak attacks then this could get very deadly. I think I saw something that extended it by 5' but I can't think what it was.Right : )
If the problem is not the skills, is not 1x1 fights, and is not try make fight like barbarians so i don´t see any problem.
At level 10 an archer rogue easily begins the first round a can make a average damage of 120, that make, if the creature don´t die, at least rogue make their part at combat.
I guess that many people would know how to do that against an appropriate level creature.
Do you have at least a skeleton build ? (just a few ideas on feats, ability scores and eventually skill ranks you need, not a full build).
Still curious to know what feats/items/class features you used. I'm pretty sure the rogue can't even reach half that at level 10.
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I think many people miss that that profile is a character. Thus the lack of responses.Yeah, but I've asked for help with my rogue before and no one has bitten either.
Hey! I did tell you what you did wrong, but you said it wasn't helpful!
Stop trying to make the rogue fight, rogue isn´t a combatant class.So what am I doing wrong?
What exactly is Auris´ predicament?
What exactly is Auris´ predicament?
Low to-hit and weak Fort/Will saves for a 9th level character? That's my 1st impression, anyway.
Stop trying to make the rogue fight, rogue isn´t a combatant class.So what am I doing wrong?
+13 to hit at level 9. The average AC of CR 9 creatures is 23. Not sure how much more of your attack roll can be sacrificed to Combat Expertise or Piranha Strike.
Not taking TWF was a good call, though.
I think many people miss that that profile is a character. Thus the lack of responses.Yeah, but I've asked for help with my rogue before and no one has bitten either.
Well there was your feat, stat, trait, and talent choices
For a halfling I would go
10str
18dex (put level bonuses here)
14con
14int
10wis
10cha
Traits: Resilient(+1 fort saves), Indomitable Faith(+1 Will)
1 |Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Combat Expertise
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Deceitful
6 |Bleeding Attack
7 |Combat Reflexes
8 |Fast Stealth
9 |Quick Draw
I'm a big fan of feinting because it overcomes corners.
Q? Why do you not have a belt of dex+4 or a higher cloak of resistance?
What exactly is Auris´ predicament?Low to-hit and weak Fort/Will saves for a 9th level character? That's my 1st impression, anyway.
Well, yes, of course. BUt it seems he went for the AC route with combat expertise. I would like to know how that have worked for him.
Note that hte FOrt/will are probably standard and not htat really low, several classes would have their saves in that range.
He also has the trait that lets him reroll a failed save once per day.
Remember, traits are supposed to be equivalent to half a feat. But that's a different topic on its own.
Q? Why do you not have a belt of dex+4 or a higher cloak of resistance?Lack of cash.
OK so it's not some PFS limit rule or something.
I would make those items a higher priority than a +2 prot ring (as opposed to only having a +1). Also no amulet of nat armor.
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I would make those items a higher priority than a +2 prot ring (as opposed to only having a +1). Also no amulet of nat armor.
The cost of bumping the ring was less than the cost of bumping the belt or cloak as I remember. You are right that I should pay attention to the cloak more. The amulet would displace the aegis of recovery.
By the way. This is the best rogue build that I have come up with.
Traits: Resilient(+1 fort saves), Indomitable Faith(+1 Will)
1 |Deceitful, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Combat Expertise
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Bleeding Attack
7 |Combat Reflexes
8 |Fast Stealth, Skill Focus(Stealth)
9 |Quick Draw
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics)
11|Greater Feint
12|Opportunist
13|Iron Will
14|Crippling Strike
15|Great Fortitude
16|Hard Minded, Skill Focus(Acrobatics)
17|Improved Iron Will
18|Defensive Roll
19|Improved Great Fortitude
20|Improved Evasion
Trickster(Surprise Strike)
Mythic Feats: Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Extra Path Ability(Combat Trickery), Combat Expertise, Quickdraw
Mythic Path: Longevity, Deadly Dodge, Vanishing Move, Mirror Dodge, Master of Escape, Precision Critical, Slayer’s Cyclone, Class Mimic, Sardonic Wit, Master Dilettante
Yes, I did include a mythic progression should the opportunity present itself.
What exactly is Auris´ predicament?Low to-hit and weak Fort/Will saves for a 9th level character? That's my 1st impression, anyway.Well, yes, of course. BUt it seems he went for the AC route with combat expertise. I would like to know how that have worked for him.
Note that hte FOrt/will are probably standard and not htat really low, several classes would have their saves in that range.
But what's the point of having high AC if you can't hit anything? Why should enemies care about you?
Anyway, it'd be better to buy a RoP +1 and a AoNA +1 instead of a RoP +2. It costs half the price for pretty much the same effect.
I would make those items a higher priority than a +2 prot ring (as opposed to only having a +1). Also no amulet of nat armor.The cost of bumping the ring was less than the cost of bumping the belt or cloak as I remember. You are right that I should pay attention to the cloak more. The amulet would displace the aegis of recovery.
I would say that item is not worth displacing one of the big 6.
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I would say that item is not worth displacing one of the big 6.
With how little it has come up the past few levels, I'm beginning to agree.
I may have to swap that out and put off the headband of ninjitsu.
Not taking TWF was a good call, though.
Second Chance seemed a better way to have the best chance to get one hit rather than miss three times.
Still no 120 damage on surprise + 1st round rogue build, or at least clues on how to do it (but it should be easy, as he indicated himself that he used a DRP calculator, so he has everything we need to know).
I'm not that surprised.
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But what's the point of having high AC if you can't hit anything? Why should enemies care about you?
The point is to not get hit when someone jumps you.
And if the enemy doesn't care about me, I consider myself lucky. As long as I get some friend to stand on the other side I can actually do something.
Being the only guy willing to go save those crusaders was pretty rough, I'll admit.
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I´m not saying that the rogue can´t contribute to the combat, it is just the class concept isn´t make to compare rogue vs monsters 1x1 at a open fight.Stop trying to make the rogue fight, rogue isn´t a combatant class.Everyone has a duty in combat. The Witch isn't a martial character, for instance, but when it drops the DC 25 Slumber or Agony it is a combat contributor.
"The rogue isn't supposed to be a combat contributor. He is supposed to be the trap guy and face guy and we just whored that out to 20 different classes."
:/
How this is suppsoed to be reconciliated with the "I am the master of scouting?"
The ranger can scout and fight 1x1 if need, does the rogeu beyond the sneak attack surprise round?
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Now, developers these days come up with elaborate or simple minigames so that the players actual skill comes into play.
What you described is attempting to produce the same satisfaction of completion through what amounts to an in-game movie cutscene free of any real player input.
Now that's an interesting point of view... you're basically saying that some of the mechanics should be based on the actual skill of the player? Not the skill points on the paper? Good luck with that, I would say. So long for all the introverted players playing an extraverted character by investing in skill points. Sure, we - DM's - give a +X discretionary bonus for a smart way of formulating what you want to achieve/say. But to disconnect the skills on paper from the skills in real life is for many a bridge too far...
But if that is the way you see it, why not step away from the CRB/character sheet / skills / feats / abilities altogether and go for true method acting. Describe all the time what you want to achieve and if it sounds plausible (read: if the player is smart) then the character succeeds...
Or did I misinterpret your statement?
Yes and no.
MEchanics already exist in writing that describe smart play by the characters. Happen to discover the hidden code in the book you found? You just skipped a ridiculously difficult encounter. Mentioned the wrong thing in character to the npc? Diplomacy DC just jumped by 5. Skill on paper still matters, but it takes a skilled player to wield them well.
Alot of these can be one man shows as well. However there's usually a bit more group involvement with them.
I can get into it more but that's more of a tangent than I care to get into. The point is that straight skill rolls, no matter how you describe them, don't really stimulate that part of the brain that shoves the round peg in the round hole. There are ways to do this but that doesn't necessarily help the rogue one way or the other.
Human Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
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Human Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
I like the intent of this build, but you made a few errors in optimization.
First:Martial Weapon Proficiency [Longbow] can be granted by the Hunter's Eye trait, while also ignoring the first range increment penalties and not costing a full feat. You probably want to spend this feat either on Additional Traits if you really need the traits you have, or on Precise Shot, which you kinda need for accuracy.
Second:10Con. While I agree that a ranged combatant needs less HP then a melee combatant, you do need at least 12, especially with a d8HD. Otherwise you are too much of a glass cannon to contribute to more then 3 fights before you are killed.
Third:Deadly Aim. You need as much attack bonus as you can possibly get. Deadly Aim just makes it harder and harder to hit. There is no Ranged Furious Focus.
Fourth:Unless I missed something, you have no reliable way to gain sneak attack. This is big. Its why most rogue's "suck". If you can't sneak attack you aren't doing any more damage then an Expert with a bow. Don't be an Expert with a bow, get a reliable sneak attacking method.
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In answer to the OP, No. The End.
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Three at +17, one at +12 is
~3(4.5+3.5*6+18+5)+4.5+3.5*6+18+5~145.5+48.5
I assume the bleed is ongoing?
Vs a CR 11 monster with average ac of 25...
+17 means you hit 65% of the time
=.65*145.5
+12 is only 40%
=.4*48.5
Together that is
=.65*145.5+.4*48.5
=113.975 DPR
Taking off deadly aim gives +3 to hit, -6 damage.
~127.5+42.5
+20(80%)/+15(55%)
=.8*127.5+.55*42.5
=125.375! (woo, 120 dpr like that other poster said)
Although I don't know how you can feasibly generate SA independent of other characters, or the specifics of the bleed mechanic.
Human Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
Low hit points, Low CMD, atrocious saves, low AC, no reliable way to get sneak attack beyond the first round, and everything within 30 ft of the enemy (and lets no say that there is an ally in between because then enjoy a -4 to -8 attack) . you are basically saying rogues sucks here.
Where that +18 to damage comes from?
Human Rogue 10
Str 14, Dex 26 Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
Human Ranger 10
Str 14, Dex 24 Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8Asuming Instant enemy or favored enemy, gravity bow , deadly aim point blank shot
Haste +26 - 4d6 + 32
Rapid Shot +26 - 2d6 +16
1st Attack +26 - 2d6 +16
2nd Attack +21 - 2d6 +16
Traits: Trapfinding, Ease of fait
Feats: Weapon focus, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill focus (perception), Endurance, Precise shot, many shot, Improved precise shot, Deadly aim.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +22 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 13 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +22 (10 ranks)
Intimidate + 12 (10 ranks)
Perception +24 (10 ranks)
Knowledge nature +14 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Survival +21 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, pearl of power 3, +2 mithral chiant shirt, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, cloak of resistence +1, Headband of wis +2
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
Spell to notice (instant enemy, two times a day)
==========
Lets see.
- (a little) More hit points
- The same amount of skills
- Trapfinding
- No penalty from firing to enemies in melee
- No penalty from cover
- More reliable damage
- Much better saves
- The same scouting
- THe same with traps
- An animal comapion who bring DPR, flank, scent and a meat shield.
- No need to stay in point blank range to do damage
- Spells
If it annoys you so much, wouldn't it be easier to simply ignore the thread?
Yes, they do. Congratulations on winning the Internet, coming up with a revolutionary insight in gaming. I don't think anyone can add to your momentous insight.
It is not revolutionary knowledge if the knowledge is old.
I made the terrible mistake of reading the first post even though I knew exactly what this thread would be *facepalm*
600 posts later I really do hope that someone took the time to tell taldanrebel that clerics make excellent archers. Sorry for not reading through myself to check.
Clerics make excellent archers!!
The first rule is no talking about rogue thread.
The second rule is no talking about rogue thread.
You can say clerics make excellent archers, or, to quote an academy winning actor "I'm and excellent driver!"
I made the terrible mistake of reading the first post even though I knew exactly what this thread would be *facepalm*
600 posts later I really do hope that someone took the time to tell taldanrebel that clerics make excellent archers. Sorry for not reading through myself to check.
Clerics make excellent archers!!
Full casting makes everything viable... lol.
But seriously, the only problem with archer clerics is that they are very feat-starved... But a human Cleric of a deity whose favored weapon is a bow (such as Erastil) can make it work very well.
And the good thing is that being human, you can have a decent amount of skill points (4 is pretty easy to get)
I made the terrible mistake of reading the first post even though I knew exactly what this thread would be *facepalm*
600 posts later I really do hope that someone took the time to tell taldanrebel that clerics make excellent archers. Sorry for not reading through myself to check.
Clerics make excellent archers!!
Full casting makes everything viable... lol.
But seriously, the only problem with archer clerics is that they are very feat-starved... But a human Cleric of a deity whose favored weapon is a bow (such as Erastil) can make it work very well.
And the good thing is that being human, you can have a decent amount of skill points (4 is pretty easy to get)
+1
Also, unlike 3.0 Divine Power and Divine Favor apply to any attack, even range attacks.And with spells like align weapon they have no problem with damage reduction, not to mention the fact that there are domains and spells that add to attack and damage. Stuff like Prayer, Heroism, Inspire Courage, etc.
The Cleric is 10 times the better archer than the rogue. Better saves, AC, self buffs, healing, resistance, versatility, etc.
Swift Divine favor and later Swift Divine power and then you are ready to go.
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I’m not sure if the OP is a GM, but if he/she wants some advice I would give you this advice: In order for you to fix the problem I’d suggest you take a step back and look at the problem from a new perspective. To quote Torgeir (and steve van zandt's character Frank Tagliano) from the TV Series Lilyhammer:
Here is my suggestion:
A) Start with granting all classes the ability to disable magical traps. Either just by adding ranks to Disable Devise or by granting the ability as a trait or feat.
B) When this is done ask yourself. What does the rogue bring to the party?
B1) When you do this, please check out the facts first. One big mistake is assuming Sneak attack deals a lot of damage. It doesn't.
C) Then ask yourself, How can I make the rogue more appealing?
D) If the answer is "the rules on skills must be totally rewritten" then you have 2 options:
1) Rewrite the skills rules.
2) Fix the problem without rewriting the skill rules.
If this doesn’t help you start over and do this:
A) Start with granting all classes the ability to disable magical traps. Either just by adding ranks to Disable Devise or by granting the ability as a trait or feat.
B) Let all classes that get 8 skills per level get 6 skills per level.
C) Now look at the rogue.
I made the terrible mistake of reading the first post even though I knew exactly what this thread would be *facepalm*
600 posts later I really do hope that someone took the time to tell taldanrebel that clerics make excellent archers. Sorry for not reading through myself to check.
Clerics make excellent archers!!
I did, but no one really noticed. Not that it mattered since this is about rogues.
I don't know why, but I keep coming back to read this thread.
I made the terrible mistake of reading the first post even though I knew exactly what this thread would be *facepalm*
600 posts later I really do hope that someone took the time to tell taldanrebel that clerics make excellent archers. Sorry for not reading through myself to check.
Clerics make excellent archers!!
I did, but no one really noticed. Not that it mattered since this is about rogues.
I don't know why, but I keep coming back to read this thread.
I hadn't noticed the feather sub domain before. Good Advice, but since this is all about the rogue people will Ignore the Cleric stuff . Especially those that claim the rogue is a better archer than the Cleric.
Anyway, The Archer Cleric deserves her own thread.
People complains because they choose a 8 skill point class in games that GMs make a poor use of skills and then try to make the rogue face monsters like barbarians do to compensate this fact.I´m not saying that the rogue can´t contribute to the combat, it is just the class concept isn´t make to compare rogue vs monsters 1x1 at a open fight.Fortunately, no one here is thinking of x1 battles.
Poor use of skills? You can only do so much with skills. Are you going to talk the lich out of finishing his evil plan? Stealth up on a dragon, something you can't do with a +infinity stealth. Once you've disabled that trap, then what? You going to use that climb skill when everyone else is flying?
Skills are used. Some of the most important skills are better accomplished by an intelligence based class or a bard. How about all those knowledge checks to gather useful information? You the best at that? Those checks are extremely common in and out of combat. Diplomacy is often better accomplished by a bard or paladin.
How do you feel when you reach high level and the opponent targets you with hold, mind control, polymorph, or petrification effects because you're the weakest person in the group?
How does that rogue archer do when the opponent is invisible to start the battle or has total cover in preparation of an ambush? Or if they have heavy fortification armor negating your sneak attack 75% of the time? Or cast a blur spell to completely negate your sneak attack? Blur potions are extremely cheap. They get passed around like candy when an opponent knows a rogue or sneak attack class is present. Make them absolutely useless.
Lots of ways to make a rogue useless that don't exist for other classes.
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For a rogue sniper:
For a rogue non-sniper:
Hide in this.Kill things with these.
This is actually what I expected to be linked to.
And yet, somehow, I get the feeling that you'd never be okay with a Rogue rolling Disable Device to solve those traps - kinda making the point moot. ;)I prefer the shocked look on the rogue's face when the barbarian gets bored, steps up, shoves the rogue aside and simply smashes the trap.Yeaaah, the trapped dungeons I run, that runs the risk of killing the entire party, including the barbarian, e.g. room is sealed and filled with acid; ceiling drops which crushing the party and prevents them from standing, then the oozes are released; an alchemists room of flammable objects exploding multiple times from differing sources; invisible spiked wall of immense size and weight falls on them.
Of course I would be okay with it. The players are meant to overcome. The barbarian smashing it is choosing the option come what may, and not solving it.