Okay, this is not a bash thread. I don't care about opinions or biased outlooks on your favorite class. I want to know the pros and cons of a sorcerer, and the pros and cons of an oracle. Facts compared to facts.
Anyone willing to contribute?
(Thank you in advance)
This seems like an odd comparison, like apple vs orange. Are you interested in which is a better class at what they do, which is better at doing a specific role, a straight sorcerer to oracle comparison, something else?
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Oracle has better HP, BAB, and Mysteries are generally better than bloodlines
Arcane VS Divine is a wash, but the sorc list is generally better at everything except healing, which it can't do at all.
Sorc doesn't have a curse
Those are the pros and cons, but that doesn't really answer which one is better.
Personally, I like the Sorcerer because there are only so many viable Oracle builds. They have similar spellcasting but the number of Mysteries that an Oracle gets are like Battle, Life, or Heavens, and the rest are kind of just derivative. I mean, they're great from a roleplaying perspective if you always wanted to play a holy fire purging the evil scum kind of character, but mechanically, Oracles just don't have the diversity of really effective Bloodlines like the Sorcerer does.
They do two very different roles though. It's really apples and oranges.
Agreeing with the others here; apples versus oranges. I haven't had a bunch of interaction with the oracle class, but what I've seen makes me think: "Well, they're both spontaneous spellcasters, so they're similar in that regard, and you CAN turn an oracle into a blaster, but they're still very different classes."
If you want facts, I will say it is very easy to cheese up your damage with a sorcerer via bloodlines, though you can probably manage something similar with an oracle. Oracles can actually be competent martial combattants, whereas sorcerers really can't (unless you count Transformation, which I have mixed feelings about). Heck, recently I saw a thread where someone splashed Earth Oracle as a martial character to create a build that threw rocks at people and decimated things with said rocks ruthlessly. Then again, a Theologian whose domain is Fire can splash Sorcerer to cheese up the damage even more with those Fire domain spells...
Both are very different classes, and both have mechanics you can blatantly abuse (and make awesome by abusing). Again, I've mostly seen sorcerers in action; what I CAN say is that the sorcerer is a very flexible class, especially since you can go Sage (Wildblooded version of Arcane) and make an Intelligence-based sorcerer.
Oracle provided you are willing to be a Half-Elf, because then with Paragon Surge you get access to all spells from both the Cleric/Oracle list and the Sorcerer/Wizard list, while the Half-Elf Sorcerer only get the full Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Oracles also can use their casting stat for AC, which can come in extremely handy when paired with Celestial Obediance (Arshea) for massive AC (Be LG and use Bestow Grace of the Champion to get CHA to save and AC again when using smite)
As stated above their HP, BAB and Skils are better than Sorcerers.
So ya... going to have to go with Oracles here.
I have a lot more experience with Oracles than I do with Sorcerers. That said, I have trouble coming up with a useful sorcerer build because every time I compare it to a sorc1/wizX build it never measures up. If you want to blast you get a lot more by becoming an Admixture wizard with 1 level of crossblooded sorcerer to get 2 blasting arcana. If you don't want to blast but want arcane spells just play a wizard or witch. If you want to be a full caster face type play an oracle or a bard. If you want to know everything play a half-elf oracle with eldritch heritage: arcane and abuse the spell Paragon Surge.
As for Oracles, I do see 3 main builds: The faux cleric (life oracles), The SoS specialist (heavens oracles), and The faux BSF (battle oracles).
Thank you kindly, Mors and Greg. That last tid bit gave me an answer to what i was looking for.
Okay, this is not a bash thread. I don't care about opinions or biased outlooks on your favorite class. I want to know the pros and cons of a sorcerer, and the pros and cons of an oracle. Facts compared to facts.
Anyone willing to contribute? (Thank you in advance)
With paragon surge cheese, the Oracle can know any wizard/sorcerer and cleric/oracle spells, at a moment's notice. So there's that. If your DM doesn't allow that, though, the Sorcerer gets access to what is, overall, a stronger spell list.
And the Wish spell which can potentially raise the dead, though it has its drawbacks. The list goes on.
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Sorcerer Pros:
-Spell list is awesome.
-Spontaneous Arcane casting is good. Technically worse than Prepared, but has a couple of upsides.
-Bloodlines range from terrible to great, most falling into the "okay" range both thematically and mechanically.
Sorcerer Cons:
-Low HP and BaB, no armor.
-Most Bloodlines fall into the "okay" category, with very few popping at you besides the default Arcane Bloodline.
Oracle Pros:
-Spell list is pretty good.
-Most Mysteries are pretty good, though a few like Wood and Metal are entirely redundant. Battle, Metal, Life, Lore, Dark Tapestry (my personal favorite), and JuJu (only for Necromancy though) are all awesome thematically and mechanically.
-Decent BaB and HP makes mixing it up a viable proposition (unless you're a Blackened Oracle or most Wrecker Oracles).
Oracle Cons:
-Spontaneous Divine casting is comparatively worse. You go from knowing all the spells to a limited number, as contrasted to knowing a lot of spells versus less for Arcane.
-Curses. At low levels is actually a drawback on most Curses.
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I can't seem to understand how the paragon surge and eldrich heritage: Arcane work together. Could someone ellaborate?
Spoiler contains paragon surge's text, Eldrich Heritage and the 1st bloodline power of the arcane bloodline.
Paragon Surge:You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear. For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
Eldrich Heritage: Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
Tomppa, what you are missing is the feat Improved Eldritch Heritage. If you are level 11, and you have the feat Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), and you know the spell Paragon Surge you can cast Paragon Surge to give yourself the feat Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to get access to the level 9 arcana of the arcane bloodline.
Edit: ninja'd upthread
LazarX, in the arcana it says: New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
Note that it says to your list of spells known. It does not say to your list of sorcerer spells known. I think if they were making Arcane as a new bloodline it would be nerfed, but it is the default, it is the way it is and it gives you lots of power without Paragon Surge. I can't tell you how many times I've read on the forums, basically no matter what class you are, you need to get this bloodlines powers somehow.
No, you're just flat out wrong. Nowhere does it say "using your sorcerer spell slots" in the ability.
"At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level."
It adds it to YOUR spell list, ie, Oracle spell list.
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Actually, RAW, there is an interpretation that it doesn't work at all.
"At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level."
As an oracle, you are not capable of casting sorcerer/wizard spells of ANY level. Even if you have a sorcerer/wizard on your list from your mystery/ancient lorekeeper, that is treated as an oracle spell.
If you aren't capable of casting sorcerer/wizard spells of any level, you can't add any spell to your list of spells known.
Imbicatus, it says any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard list. It does not say any one sorcerer/wizard spell.
I have seen builds that are clerics, druids, oracles, bards, summoners and inquisitors all take the eldritch heritage (arcane) feat chain and improved familiar. If you can't use the feat Improved Eldritch Heritage (arcane) to add wizard spells to your spell list I think they would have made that known by now.
Paragon Surge is the real cheese here. It lets you take 2 feats and then take the 3rd one over and over again with different choices via the spell. If you had to actually take the feat you would get stuck with whatever spell you picked, but because you are only virtually taking it, you just get whatever spell is useful now and if you need a different one in 30 minutes no problem, just cast paragon surge again and you get to make different choices.
Arcane spont > Divine spont
Oracles do get sexy class features extra spells earlier than Sorcerers to make up the difference, but unless you delve into some serious cheese via feat and/or spell selection, an equally optimize Sorcerer always comes out on top when it comes to just spellcasting.
Once ALL the class features are taken into account, they are about the same balance wise. Just like when comparing Wizards and Clerics.
Dark Tapestry (my personal favorite)
Hell yeah.
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Going with the Paragon Surge benefit as well;
Half Elf Oracle, Lunar Mystery, Ancient Lorekeeper Archetype
Use the Elf favored class bonus for oracle (same as Aasimar)
Eldritch Heritage: Arcane.
Some basic options allow you to:
End up with an over powered animal companion, your favorite arcane spells of level 0-8 (albeit as level 1-9 spells), familiar, Cha to AC, full time darkvision and finally, paragon surge for whatever specific spells you might need at the time.
No need to try to convince your GM that "Racial heritage: Half Elf" is legit, nor a need to waste the feat. Also the free Skill Focus feat gets you on the way and having elven blood opens up the Lorekeeper and FCB.
Pick your style of either melee or caster focused and then grab a curse that is fitting. Can't go with the extra cheddar and go dual cursed, however, because both archetypes change your spell list.
An alternate version is to go with the Life mystery using the same options and make a very versatile healer/controller or healer/blaster type.
Basically comes down to the fact that with specific choices and options, an oracle can be a more durable/versatile sorcerer option, in some regards. Though an oracle won't be able to match up to a specialized sorcerer in their niche, they can be built to mimic a lot of the abilities.
Dark Tapestry (my personal favorite)Hell yeah.
*High five for insane Oracles*
And their dead wives.
Okay, so I was going to ask how an oracle gains the arcane spell Paragon Surge. Then, I looked up how an oracle gains Paragon Surge. Afterwards, my brain finally caught back up to the cheesiness of the Ancient Lunar Lorekeeper, and said, "...holy nut balls...I think we just broke the game people...Um...how do we fix it?"
Ummm... Paragon surge is a cleric spell, so there is no need for Lorekeeper. Its not really cheesy either. Probably the strongest thing around yes, but no cheese is required.
wait...so then why go lorekeeper in the first place if you already have access to every spell in the game?
and also, after double checking the rules and such, I found this.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
It says effect. The Lorekeeper archetype isn't an effect. It's an archetype. How does a half-elf gain an elven archetype?
Well, there is the Eldritch Heritage/Paragon Surge combo for Oracles.
True, getting repeatedly punched in the face by your GM is a major downside.
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wait...so then why go lorekeeper in the first place if you already have access to every spell in the game?
and also, after double checking the rules and such, I found this.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.It says effect. The Lorekeeper archetype isn't an effect. It's an archetype. How does a half-elf gain an elven archetype?
FAQ on Half Elf/Half Orc ability access
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?
Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.
Also, the reason for the Lorekeeper archetype is simply to have certain spells always available to you, especially prior to level 11 when you can cast Paragon Surge to gain access to Improved Eldritch Heritage. Yes the Lorekeeper spells will be 1 level higher than normal, but that still gives access to a lot of great options on a full time basis.
You could even decide to be caster based and have (As a Lunar Mystery, Ancient Lorekeeper):
Blackened Curse, granting Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Flame Sphere, Wall of Fire, Delayed Blast Fireball to your Oracle for some offense.
A 1.5x level Animal Companion, Tiger(big cat) being the best option for pounce.
Charisma mod for AC, ideally matched with Noble Scion (War) to get Cha mod for initiative as well.
Then choices of Darkvision, a shape change ability, natural attack ability or what have you from your other Revelation choices.
Several of your favorite wizard spells as a bonus to your selected spells, in addition to having every cure spell and whatever divine spells best fit your needs. Paragon Surge/Improved Eldritch Heritage doesn't happen til level 11 and uses a 3rd level spell... here you can have certain spells you use often always available.
A familiar of your choice from the arcane heritage... very useful, especially down the road if you can squeeze in improved familiar... and also very cool from a concept/rp stance in terms of being sort of like a sorcerer.
Ability down the road (level 11+) to use Paragon Surge to gain access to Improved Heritage(Arcane) and have whatever situational arcane spell you need OR use it to gain Expanded Arcana to grab whatever Divine spell you need at the time. Being a Half Elf you already got the free skill focus to start off the Eldritch Heritage tree anyway as well.
And all of this is on a 3/4 BAB, d8, medium armor wearing chasis with better skill points and the same saves as a standard Sorcerer.
Now, I won't say it is the most powerful anything, but the build is one of the most versatile I have come up with, and I love it because it has a whole lot of toys in the toybox.
Oracles get 2 more skill points.
...Hey its something.
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I agree with most of the above post. I will just add that, while the Ancient Lorekeeper is a great arcehtype (probably the best for most Oracle builds) the Lunar oracle benefits more form the dual-cursed arcehtype IMO. The Wolfscarred + Deaf curse gives you a free bite attack and Silent spell, combine it with Still spell and Escew materials and you can cast while shapechanged! It also gives you access to the Misfortune revelation, which is one of the most awesome revelations that exist.
I agree if you are going for a melee-centric oracle. If going for a caster based, however, the melee attacks don't outweigh the boost from the Lorekeeper spells, IMO.
Also, for the divien caster, the best animal companion is the deinonychus/velociraptor. What you really care is to have many attacks and Pounce, you have spells for size increases and Str enchantments. The deinonychus/velociraptor is a great choice from lvl 1, but until the 7th lvl the Ape is a bit better. At 7th lvl the deinonychus has 5 attacks + Pounce, making him the optimal choice. If you can swap ACs in-game, you know what to do.
While the Raptor has more attacks at 7+, the Tiger (Cat, Big) has more strength.
The Raptor will have:
1d8+2 (6.5)
1d8+2 (6.5)
1d6+2 (5.5)
1d4+2 (4.5)
1d4+2 (4.5)
Avg 27.5 total
And has pounce to use them all on a charge.
The Tiger will have:
1d8+5 (9.5)
1d6+5 (8.5)
1d6+5 (8.5)
Avg 26.5 total
And has pounce to use all on a charge.
However, the Tiger also has Grab to start a free grapple and Rake for additional damage while grappling, so after the first round the Tiger wins out on damage against anything it is able to grab.
Actually, the tiger gets to make both of its rakes on a pounce attack, giving them the exact same amount. And considering it can easily get rakes on subsequent turns, it doesn't really fall behind at all in damage, while having a solid +6 strength and the very useful grab.