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Okay. Slow down.
Did someone use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to bring another player's character back from below 0 hit points?
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Wands are especially expensive and they maintain the caster level chosen at creation, which feeds into price. At low levels they are rather great; 50 charges of Caster Level 1 magic missile? Awesome! A single missile for 1d4+1 damage! For 750gp... wait a moment... that's quite a bit at level 1.
But by level 10... it is still 1d4+1 damage and only one missile.
And if you want 50 charges of a level 4 spell? It is 21,000 gold.
You can make higher caster level wands, sure, such as a CL 9 wand of magic missile... but the formula is Spell Level * Caster Level * 750gp... so 6750gp for a wand of 50 CL 9 Magic Missile... which has five 1d4+1 missiles. This isn't exactly a thrilling amount of damage at level 9.
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So I was playing with 6 other people and we were having a pretty hard time against a (20AC spellcaster in level 1-2 scenario!)single enemy and this enemy managed to take down our cleric so a bard used a wand to resurrect her and I just realized how ridiculous wands are.
Bad guys don't get to use wands, if they did the battle would never end, yet pcs can which pretty much removes all threat of death as long as one caster can stay alive. The biggest problem is the fact you get so many charges. I understand potions because you would go broke buying potions and would use them wisely. The economy of wands seems cheesy.
I'm mostly just griping because I am a monk and I went for sponge as opposed to hitter. What good is someone that can't be killed when nobody will ever get killed with wands around. I like the fact there is a limit to spells, which wands completely remove. I understand there use outside of battle, but maybe there should be some loops to jump through during battle.
Don't worry, by about 3rd-4th level, using a wand of CLW in combat is more likely to get someone killed than to save them. Your issue is more with the wonky nature of damage dice and the low HP pools at 1st-2nd level than it is with healing wands.
Those wands become a "patch up after the fight, don't touch 'em during combat" thing really fast.
Okay, OP.
Remember, a character is not Dead until their hit points have dropped to a negative amount equal to their CON score. So, a character with a 12 CON is not Dead until they hit -12 hit points. Until they do so, they are unconscious and potentially bleeding out unless they are healed/stabilized.
So, one character healed another character that was wounded/dying, not dead. That's a pretty nice/timely thing to do.
Was this in a Pathfinder Society game?
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It didn't help that half the people had wands and people where borrowing them from wounded pcs and then giving them back but not really so the games immersion fell apart quite a bit.
So a bunch of people whose job regularly puts them in danger decide to bring medical gear, and that breaks immersion for you? You lost me.
Wands are bologna? Like literally made of bologna?
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Sounds like a fun game of grab and poke to me!
Sounds like a fun game of grab and poke to me!
HEH. HEH. HEH.
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Well yes, it should take actions to pass wands between characters during a fight.
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Well in one instance someone picked up a wand from a wounded player then healed said player, who got up next round and used the wand on herself and the round after that the player who grabbed the wand earlier used the wand again, so basically two people were using one wand and all of this was done without any of them talking about giving wands to other people or move actions.
Pick up wand = move action
Use wand = standard actionget up = move action
take wand = move action
use wand = standard action
grab wand = move action
use wand = standard action
Yeah, a bit of leeway from the GM there but not much.
Very soon that will be a waste of three actions but, to be honest, I don't see any lack of drama in someone running over to a dying comrade and pulling them back from the brink. That seems to have more tension and drama than shrugging and moving on.
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Well in one instance someone picked up a wand from a wounded player then healed said player, who got up next round and used the wand on herself and the round after that the player who grabbed the wand earlier used the wand again, so basically two people were using one wand and all of this was done without any of them talking about giving wands to other people or move actions.
Well, people failing to follow the rules is not the fault of wands.
Since dropping an item is a free action and picking one up is a move action, I'd make passing a wand into a move action in order to avoid PCs doing drop-and-grab silliness. I don't really care whether it's the passer or the passee using their action so long as someone does it.
Edit: on the original subject, I don't see how using magical healing to bring a PC back from unconsciousness is immersion-breaking. And who said bad guys can't use wands? Bad guys have wands all the time.
In some respects I also dislike the CLW wand. It does greatly reduce the value of a healer, especially at low levels.
But it is pretty much a necessity in PFS since it is very common for there to be no true healer at the table.
As somebody that enjoys playing clerics/oracles/druids. I can say that I love having a Wand of CLW or CMW in later play because it reduces the burden of having to be the "Healer" and allows me to delve into the other interesting spells that I have access to.
I remember entire sessions that I spent mostly just spending my rounds in combat running around healing people (mind you this was when I was first learning how to play). Now my group normally makes sure a Wand of CLW is purchased by about 2nd level so that the "healer" only has to do emergency "oh, crap!" healing in combat if it is absolutely necessary.
Bu to the OP, just like everybody above has said that Wand of CLW will quickly become something you only use after combat is done with. Just give it a couple of levels.
My players just lost their druid and wizard and gained a magus and a barbarian (level 13). The only divine caster is an Inquisitor. They party bought 10 CLW wands before heading off to the final dungeon. If the inquisitor dies, they are all screwed, but it is really the only option for parties that lack a dedicated and specially designed healer.
Yeah it was PFS. I get the whole dying vs dead thing I just don't like how useful the wand is at diffusing tension, luckily it looks like that is only a low level concern though.
It didn't help that half the people had wands and people where borrowing them from wounded pcs and then giving them back but not really so the games immersion fell apart quite a bit.
Well the passing back and forth bit is probably a bit silly, but in terms of diffusing tension, how is it any different then a caster casting cure light wounds instead of using the wand? The only difference is the character gets to keep his resources (spells) for doing fun and interesting things instead of devoting large portions of them to healing.
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To be honest I have to think back quite a while to remember the last time I was in a game where a character died.
Thinking hard I reckon it must be at least 19 maybe even 20 hours ago...
All joking aside wand of cure light wounds have an important role in Pathfinder as they remove the necessity for a dedicated healer.
Why is this important? Because it means that people are not pressured into playing a role that they don't want to play. Playing a healer therefore becomes a choice rather than the punishment for being the last person to create a character.
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To be honest I have to think back quite a while to remember the last time I was in a game where a character died.
Thinking hard I reckon it must be at least 19 maybe even 20 hours ago...
All joking aside wand of cure light wounds have an important role in Pathfinder as they remove the necessity for a dedicated healer.
Why is this important? Because it means that people are not pressured into playing a role that they don't want to play. Playing a healer therefore becomes a choice rather than the punishment for being the last person to create a character.
Clerics are the best class to play.
Unless the party expect you to healbot: then you need a wand of CLW so that you can use your cleric properly.
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Why bother passing the want back and forth. just have two characters hold the wand at the same time with their free hands. Then both can use the wand. It would be like a potato sack race just with wands.:)
Okay, OP.
Remember, a character is not Dead until their hit points have dropped to a negative amount equal to their CON score. So, a character with a 12 CON is not Dead until they hit -12 hit points. Until they do so, they are unconscious and potentially bleeding out unless they are healed/stabilized.
So, one character healed another character that was wounded/dying, not dead. That's a pretty nice/timely thing to do.
Was this in a Pathfinder Society game?
I would like to point out that if the "tank" is a orc or half-orc, they can actually be healed AFTER they died for a short period of time. I forgot the name of the feat but it allows them to be healed even after death for a few rounds.
Or wait...are weapon cords still a free action? Have two people both attach a string to the same wand. Then one character can drop (free action and the other can retrieve it with the string. Back and forth as free actions.
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So this is what it feels like to be a ridiculous power gamer. :)
Physical Description: A wand is 6 to 12 inches long, 1/4 inch thick, and weighs no more than 1 ounce. Most wands are wood, but some are bone, metal, or even salted, cured meat. A typical wand has AC 7, 5 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 16 and may be delicious with mustard.
Skull, there is a certain give-and-take to the action of Pathfinder, and it's been played and played and played. Yes, it seems like there's little risk sometimes, but don't let it fool you. Players will get knocked unconscious, but will get up again. Sometimes players die. Critical Hits and Rending (monster ability) are well-known for accomplishing this. Stay on your toes and be ready with an occasional potion or healing kit to help out players who go into negative HP. Stay loose and enjoy the game.
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Clerics are the best class to play.
Unless the party expect you to healbot: then you need a wand of CLW so that you can use your cleric properly.
While I completely agree that a cleric does NOT have to be a healer, I take rather strong exception to your claim that a cleric played as a healer is being played improperly. I quite often enjoy playing healbots and I'd appreciate it if you do NOT describe that as badwrong fun.
While I completely agree that a cleric does NOT have to be a healer, I take rather strong exception to your claim that a cleric played as a healer is being played improperly. I quite often enjoy playing healbots and I'd appreciate it if you do NOT describe that as badwrong fun.Clerics are the best class to play.
Unless the party expect you to healbot: then you need a wand of CLW so that you can use your cleric properly.
Possibly a suggestion that you have an item for cures and other slots for damage negation/defensive spells like protection from evil(etc.)/remove sickness/obscuring mist/liberating command/etc.? He could mean other things... but I could be wrong.
While I completely agree that a cleric does NOT have to be a healer, I take rather strong exception to your claim that a cleric played as a healer is being played improperly. I quite often enjoy playing healbots and I'd appreciate it if you do NOT describe that as badwrong fun.Clerics are the best class to play.
Unless the party expect you to healbot: then you need a wand of CLW so that you can use your cleric properly.
there is an inherent difference between what you said, and what GeraintElberion said. It's one thing to want to play a healbot/support. Even then as Te'Shen points out a wand is still useful so you can also provide other supports for the PC's. It's another when you show up and you're expected to healbot. I don't think anyone is telling you that your way is badwrong fun.
Now I see why only nubs like me are melee.
I infer that you are here complaining that melee (aka martial) characters are underpowered through inability to use wands and the like. You have a point at higher levels where casters do dominate, but
a) it's not the fault of wands which are quite low-powered, andb) you'll be very glad of that wand when it saves your martial PC's life. Or (if better played) you'll be glad that the cleric got to use his slots to buff you up and cripple the enemy so you didn't go down in the first place.
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Improper doesn't exactly translate into wrong. If I hammer a nail in with the butt of a screw driver I'm using the screwdriver improperly, but not exactly wrongly, as the job is still getting done. I think using a live fish would be more along the wrong spectrum.
Friends don't let friends post drunk.
Seriously, you can play a martial that can do many of those things. Not sure what your beef is unless you just don't like your particular character.
I was joking about the melee but I was referring to the previous poster that was talking about how wands clear you up for fun spells, so not only do spellcasters get fun skills but they get fun spells and the poor melee characters only get to climb, swim and hit things in the most boring way. While I'm messing around with throwing a grappling hook they can use a magic rope. While trying to swim for my life they can walk on water(or build a boat with their high INT). When we are having a conversation I'm twittling my thumbs. When fighting they can give me buffs and debuff the enemies, meanwhile I miss 75 percent of my attacks and look like an idiot. While I am pumping up my stats and feats to have a decent AC they are casting mage armor.
Call the wahmbulance.
at low levels, the melee fairs pretty well actually. It's only at later levels when they can cast spells all day long that (7+ in my experience) that the discrepancy becomes truly apparent (and snowballs from there).
At low levels melee can compete in the debuff arena. Take a look at the many maneuvers. Yeah you have to use your skills, but you can use them all day long. A 3rd level wizard using animate rope is burning a valuable resource. Now when they have spells to burn this does become frustrating.
Plus at early levels a fighter can 1-hit a wizard as easily as they can 1-shot a fighter.
Either way, there are plenty of melee sucks support groups out there. In fact the front page has some right now. Why not join them in some helpful venting/discussion?
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I always rule that a held item (weapon or wand or whatever) that was in the character's hand when the character dropped unconscious is picked up again as a free action while they stand up (assuming they want it, of course).
Passing between people should be a move action for the taker and a free action (sometimes immediate action, for the sake of game smoothness) for the giver.
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So I was playing with 6 other people and we were having a pretty hard time against a (20AC spellcaster in level 1-2 scenario!)single enemy
A single enemy encounter needs to be fairly strong or have a high AC to offset a significant action economy disadvantage. It's a 1 vs 6 battle -- the enemy gets 1 standard action per round while the party has 6 standard actions per round. Without a high AC, the enemy will die before the end of the round. Also, many enemy spellcasters in modules will cast buffs on themselves before battle if they hear intruders approaching.
so a bard used a wand to resurrect her and I just realized how ridiculous wands are.
Reviving a dying ally is the most optimal way to use healing in combat. However, this is still not a favorable situation. The cleric had to get into touch range and waste a standard action to bring back an ally that will likely get dropped again or have to retreat. Your party is down two members for at least a round.
Bad guys don't get to use wands, if they did the battle would never end,
Enemies with wands are uncommon because:
1) Using a wand each turn is a bad way to spend your actions. Enemies only live for about three or four rounds and often have action economy disadvantages. An enemy cannot heal himself and fight at the same time.2) It doesn't make sense from a design standpoint. If a module designer wants an enemy to cast spells from a wand, why not just make the enemy a spellcaster?
3) The players will get the wand when the enemy dies.
yet pcs can which pretty much removes all threat of death as long as one caster can stay alive.
At best, that caster can only revive one person per round. The caster has touch his buddy to heal them, which means he has to put himself into serious risk to do so. Also keep in mind there's a downward spiral effect. The more people that drop, the more hits the other PCs will take, which can lead to more people dropping.
The biggest problem is the fact you get so many charges. I understand potions because you would go broke buying potions and would use them wisely. The economy of wands seems cheesy.
Wands are best at low levels, but low levels usually don't have the money for them. To buy a wand of CLW, a party has to pool their money together for it. Yes, wands are ultimately cheaper than potions, but that's balanced by the fact you must purchase one with 50 charges. How is that cheesy?
I'm mostly just griping because I am a monk and I went for sponge as opposed to hitter. What good is someone that can't be killed when nobody will ever get killed with wands around. I like the fact there is a limit to spells, which wands completely remove. I understand there use outside of battle, but maybe there should be some loops to jump through during battle.
Pathfinder is not World of Warcraft. You cannot simply min-max defenses at the cost of offense to "tank." Clerics are not healbots. You cannot win a fight by out-sustaining your enemy.
The untold secret to winning combat in D&D is to end fights quickly or not fight at all. Each combat puts lives at risk and takes its toll on valuable resources (hitpoints, wand charges, spells, etc). The less resources you spent on the battle, the better. If your party had to spend precious wand charges, that's bad. Preventing damage is less costly than healing it.
This is why your character does not do well. Being completely defense-oriented does not end the fight faster. If you want to draw attention away from your teammates, you must present yourself as a significant threat
Need to fry me up some wands and chow down...
A little off topic: I started playing PFS to meet new players, and also explore some character concepts I haven't been able to play. One thing I noticed is that the players aren't using Cure Light wands at my local PFS games. They seem to favor wands with Infernal Healing.
Need to fry me up some wands and chow down...
A little off topic: I started playing PFS to meet new players, and also explore some character concepts I haven't been able to play. One thing I noticed is that the players aren't using Cure Light wands at my local PFS games. They seem to favor wands with Infernal Healing.
my Weekly Savage Worlds Group
Stimpacks (Injectable Healing Potions) were often utilized in combat and well. my doctor did his medicine checks out of combat, the medicine check, was often the superior way to heal out of combat, because it had the bulk discount of healing wands and wasn't so expensive in comparison.
i could heal a guy in 10 minutes once per hour per person, hex style. or in combat, they could inject themselves with a stimpack
DR Ivan Redwood had a Semi Automatic Combat Shotgun, a Plasma Pistol, and Eventually, a Plasma Rifle. he also went from unarmored, to wearing combat armor, to power Armor than Power Armor MK2.
he was the lowest level PC, but he had an amazing kill count, and he was a freaking doctor. but that can be blamed on how overpowered the shooting skill was.
not relevant to pathfinder, but relevant due to the fact, that excessively easy access to cheap healing, can make a dedicated healer irrelevant and well, a healer better have something to do in combat.
Ivan wasn't a bad shot and most things, died swiftly because of the wound system, and it was often better to eliminate a group of Extras unless you could truly slaughter an enemy wild card or inflict signifficant damage. because extras often had inferior toughness scores and were often easier to hit, and required 1 wound to take down instead of 4.
first rule of savage worlds, eliminate the extras, then focus fire on the enemy wild cards.
Your probably right Blah, I probably need to take a break from this pc.
No shame in that. I just had to do the same thing with my deaf oracle--just wasn't working out.
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A little off topic: I started playing PFS to meet new players, and also explore some character concepts I haven't been able to play. One thing I noticed is that the players aren't using Cure Light wands at my local PFS games. They seem to favor wands with Infernal Healing.
10 HP per charge and the 10 round timespan doesn't matter outside of combat. Also useful in combat if you know you are fighting something that can make you Bleed. The 'infernal' aspect does tend to get glossed over, but my character did make a point of apologising to the unconscious paladin before tapping him to get him back on his feet!
In some respects I also dislike the CLW wand. It does greatly reduce the value of a healer, especially at low levels.
But it is pretty much a necessity in PFS since it is very common for there to be no true healer at the table.
Good!
As a player of the Cleric in many a 1ed game I assure you a spell list of all CLW every game to keep the dopey fighter alive is boring. And leads to "no healer at the table" because no one wants to play a cleric.Cheap CLW wands are fantastic!