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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
I am playing a 9th level wizard based in and around Magnimar. I learned (for me at least) a long time ago that the best characters are not the ones with the maxed out stats but the ones designed around a good concept or theme. As such, I have been working several angles with this character since I first started playing him. Very early on I took baking as a profession and put a few points into Craft: Baked Goods. That got a few funny looks from the other players. When the party started to acquire some treasure I bought a small one room building and set it up as a bake shop. These days the gold just flows into my pockets. Not because of the bakery itself (I don't think it even makes a profit) but because of what I do with it.
I have hired a man and his wife to work for me and for the most part they just bake and sell my wares. I do routinely place various enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods. Most of them are pretty harmless. They just make the patron want more. I'm not talking about a drug addiction kind of thing. The last thing I want is people stabbing each other in back alleys because they are desperate for a doughnut. It's more like they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt". A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be. These are usually given to town guards and other notable passersby for free. A lot of my goods are given away to the poor. Many times along with small amounts of coin. Between the enchantments and the charity everyone from the highest noble to the lowest urchin tells me all the secrets worth knowing in town.
I am like a giant spider sitting at the center of a vast information web. Many times information important to the campaign finds it's way to me. I also know a lot of tidbits that, while unimportant to me, are of the highest importance to others. That's when my other "employee" comes into play. I have a low level rogue I use as an information broker. He never meets me personally (I mentioned I know magic, right?) but I pass along all the info I think can be useful to others and he sells it. Many times for a high price.
And thus, our Paladin has his panties in a bunch. Out of game, I think the player is just a little jealous of how easy I make money. (I also do a good bit of crafting but that's a whole other thing) He is trying to argue that it's evil to addict people and steal information from them. I point out that its no more evil than using a charm spell.
Anyone have any thoughts on the morality of my businesses?
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You are using mind altering magics on creatures without informed consent for profit.
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Personally I love this I've never heard of a bakery spy mastery it's awesome.
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You're going to get a lot of different opinions on this.
But yeah, it seems pretty much evil to me. You're using magic to mind %&$# people for fun and profit.
It also seems to me that the GM is letting you get away with a lot. But people will disagree on that too. One persons "creative use of magic" is another persons "cheesy rules abuse".
The normal disclaimer "do what you want as long as everybody is having fun" doesn't apply since everybody is NOT having fun.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil.
VS.
Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
I'd say stealing information is not so different from stealing anything else so not very lawful. Drugging people against their will is also unlawful (i would think). As to good or evil; I'd say it's not evil because you aren't harming the people (or creating an addiction), at the very least it's no more evil than if you had cast the spell directly on the people (which I don't think is evil). Your spell delivery system is just unorthodox.
If no one dies because of your charms I would say you aren't evil. Heck I think charming someone in combat is a lot worse. Oh and that is the single coolest thing ever. Baker spy master wizard that has his finger in every pie. Quite literally in some cases, eh?
This MIGHT HELP
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I see nothing in the rules as written that would indicate such a minor usage of power would turn your character evil. Sounds to me like the paladin (see also: Factory settings for 90% of paladins) just wants to cause trouble.
Another question would be: What else does your character do? Is he an otherwise upstanding member of society, profiteering aside? Does he do the whole loladventurer thing and rack up "good karma?" Such a minor infraction should not result in an alignment shift without that person doing other, far worse things on top of it. Heck, I'm inclined to say donating these to the poor and homeless combined with handing out a little coin ought to nicely negate any risk to your alignment, little though it should be. If anything, your schtick is a lot closer to being chaotic than evil, and even then, it sounds like your character is not doing a constant mass of chaotic acts that may risk a shift.
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Like most alignment things, I'd say this depends on motives. If making money is just a sideline, and the overall goal of the business is to gather important information to fight crime and save babies, then that's right about LN. If the extra cash is reinvested in the community (not just token throwing-of-gold-at-beggars, but legitimate philanthropy), I could even see an argument for a good character partaking in it. On the other hand, if said money is being used to buy shiny things for you and your friends, or if the information gathered is more for personal use than any greater benefit, then slipping into LE is appropriate.
Of course, like most alignment things, the whole scenario kinda falls to pieces when dealing with players who might have different OOC motives than their characters or be dishonest about the motivations of the characters themselves.
Pretty much Evil.
And, are you and adventurer or a baker? I mean, you should be making your WBL by adventuring, not baking.
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The old adage would apply if it was a sufficiently evil act to warrant an alignment shift by itself; it is not.I think this is another instance in which the old adage applies:
If you have to ask...
Pretty much Evil.
And, are you and adventurer or a baker? I mean, you should be making your WBL by adventuring, not baking.
What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income? There's no cosmic law stating that all adventurers must profit purely from crafted or looted items, or the payouts they get for solving problems. Sounds to me like this fellow is trying to avoid becoming a murderhobo, which most adventurers are by definition, by doing something else meaningful.
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Hehehe. I dont think that's bad enough to make you evil (although it does lean in that direction), it might bring you towards true neutral (in my humble opinion).
-Addiction thing: evil, not super-evil, but evil nonetheless, more because of the fact people dont know than for the adictive effects.
-Information-gathering: that's legit. What do you think a bartender does? He uses alcohol, you use magic, no big difference.
Still, nice to see someone not being a murderhobo. My current magus character has a buttload of ranks in craft (clockwork) so maybe I should start a side-business...
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Depends on what kind of information you sell and who you sell it into but other than that i don't find it evil at all.
My question is though, how do you do it? what spells and in what way do you do it?
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It's not significantly evil. And by engaging in public charity works, you're painting yourself, overall, as a non-evil guy - Lawful Neutral should be just fine. Now, if you were enabling or aiding people to screw each other over in a significant way, then the spider's good works would start to diminish compared to the proportion of harm you'd inflict. Then, the slide to evil would really begin.
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In any event, doing something like this in real life would likely get you arrested, which means it's probably either chaotic or evil, or both. I could see a paladin taking issue with it no matter how you slice it.
I would caution people that using real-world arrestable offenses isn't necessarily a good metric for whether something should be evil in D&D.
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What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income? There's no cosmic law stating that all adventurers must profit purely from crafted or looted items, or the payouts they get for solving problems. Sounds to me like this fellow is trying to avoid becoming a murderhobo, which most adventurers are by definition, by doing something else meaningful.I'm pretty sure the question isn't about the side business, but about basically enchanting innocent bystanders to gather personal information which is used for purely selfish reasons.
In any event, doing something like this in real life would likely get you arrested, which means it's probably either chaotic or evil, or both. I could see a paladin taking issue with it no matter how you slice it.
Two things here. I wasn't talking necessarily about what the OP was doing with this question. I was asking another poster directly why an adventurer shouldn't be allowed to have a side business.
Second of all, the casting of charm and/or dominate person on people for no reason doesn't provoke an alignment shift. Why would using enchanted pastries to develop an information network that is proving beneficial to multiple parties, one you gained without really robbing them of free will, automatically provoke an alignment infraction? The issue is not that the paladin character is taking issue with it; the paladin's player has taken issue instead.
Second of all, the casting of charm and/or dominate person on people for no reason doesn't provoke an alignment shift.
It might, depending on what the caster does with the charmed and/or dominated person and the motive behind it.
And your accomplice who sells information ? Can you guarantee that the information is not being put to evil purposes ? If you're trying to be "NSA, we spy on you for your own good", the information that's not relevant to your mission isn't to be disseminated.
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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
You've already given the background. Let me zoom in on it.
I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin
Enhance:
a conflict with our parties Paladin
Enhance:
our parties Paladin
Almost got it:
Paladin
I guarantee you 100% NOBODY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS if a Paladin wasn't in your party and using that as an excuse to be a dick to his party members.
The problem is that guy.
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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
You've already given the background. Let me zoom in on it.
I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
our parties PaladinAlmost got it:
PaladinI guarantee you 100% NOBODY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS if a Paladin wasn't in your party and using that as an excuse to be a dick to his party members.
The problem is that guy.
+7000 XP for appropriate use of view screen and ship's computer.
All depends on what information is being sold and for what reason. If you sell any and all secrets for profit, it's questionable, especially if it's destroying lives, at which point it's probably evil (see "Needful Things"; the merchant wasn't physically harming people, but he was manipulating them into harming one another). On the other hand, this enterprise you've got going on could be used for good. Ensuring that sensitive information pertaining the the town's defense finds its way into the hands of the authorities, for example, could be considered "good", though not if you're charging for it...
Sounds very much 'affably evil' to me. Evil can be nice, and is often more successful than good when doing so.
Also: No multiverse. No time travel. The Prime is gone. I'm not going to trivialise its devastating loss by allowing trips back and forth.
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-Information-gathering: that's legit. What do you think a bartender does? He uses alcohol, you use magic, no big difference.
I would dispute that particular example, for one important reason. The patrons know they're drinking alcohol, and are presumably familiar with how it works. Pastries, on the other hand, don't normally include mind-control magic. If we want to talk bar examples, this would be more like the bartender putting a roofie into someone's drink, and then exploiting that.
On a more general note, the issue really boils down to how one thinks about enchantment and other types of magic that compromise free will. A lot of people take the view that depriving someone of free will is as much of an assault as stabbing them with a sword, while others take a more utilitarian view of things. It's a moral grey area, at best.
+7000 XP for appropriate use of view screen and ship's computer.As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
You've already given the background. Let me zoom in on it.
I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
our parties PaladinAlmost got it:
PaladinI guarantee you 100% NOBODY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS if a Paladin wasn't in your party and using that as an excuse to be a dick to his party members.
The problem is that guy.
+200 platinum for quoting Star Trek. As far as alignment shifts, I would only rule so far as to say that your wizard is chaotic neutral, with some evil deeds on the side. I would not rule that your wizard is now evil, not until you become mayor of the town.
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I would call a lot of real world corporate practices abomniably evil.
Infringing upon peoples' privacy isn't necessarily evil, nor is "charming" them. From the perspective of a chaotic-aligned character it's a terrible affront to their liberty, free will, etc. But, from a lawful perspective, it's not as big of a deal. It's all about what's done with the information, I think, that determines "good" or "evil". Thus, I'd call it neutral (leaning lawful) on the ethical axis, whereas the moral axis could swing in either direction.
Eh, I'd argue it's an evil act, but not enough to shift the character evil. Though if I were in your shoes, I'd just say, "yeah, I'm evil; oh, what's that, Paladin? your code doesn't allow you to associate with evil characters? Well, then, one of us is going to have to leave, and it's not going to be me." Though, I'd also recommend you not do what I would do. I just take issue with people who try to tell me that I'm role-playing my characters 'wrong' or anything to that effect, such as whining to the DM about how I'm not playing my alignment right.
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Lawful Neutral. Or maybe just Neutral.
Give the paladin a cookie and suggest that he STFU.
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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
You've already given the background. Let me zoom in on it.
I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
our parties PaladinAlmost got it:
PaladinI guarantee you 100% NOBODY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS if a Paladin wasn't in your party and using that as an excuse to be a dick to his party members.
The problem is that guy.
Because only paladins roleplay or because only paladins are good?
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You might have trouble when Tony and his friends find out you're trying to compete with them.
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Because only paladins roleplay or because only paladins are good?
Because, for some odd reason, it seems like most of the pricks get drawn into playing paladins. Don't get me wrong here; I've heard of some cool paladins with equally cool players. ... Just not very often. Besides, this isn't an issue of someone's paladin character having a problem. It is, according to the OP, said paladin's player raising the stink.
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You're the stuff adventures are made of - basically a plot hook.
"Sir Reginald IV calls for adventurers to investigate the happenings of a bakery in town that the villagers seem to be drawn to. It's suspected that foul magic play is afoot. Whatever the cause, it must be stopped before the town is held completely hostage to the whims of the bakery!"
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Frankly, if an NPC did that, they'd be a good candidate for the villain of a low-level adventure.
That doesn't exactly put you on the side of the angels.
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You're the stuff adventures are made of - basically a plot hook.
"Sir Reginald IV calls for adventurers to investigate the happenings of a bakery in town that the villagers seem to be drawn to. It's suspected that foul magic play is afoot. Whatever the cause, it must be stopped before the town is held completely hostage to the whims of the bakery!"
Replace "bakery" with "apple store". Seriously though, glowing rectangles have hypnotized the masses.
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As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil.
And thus, our Paladin has his panties in a bunch. Out of game, I think the player is just a little jealous of how easy I make money.
I love how people pick things out of a post and run with it. (course I'm not saying I havent done this a time or two)
Here we have some people who are saying the players of the parties paladin is clearly in the wrong because the OP said he thought the player was jealous. So now the paladin player is at fault becuase...well... he's playing a paladin.
Look at it this way. The paladin player may believe what the OP is doing is wrong.
There are some 20 people posting here and maybe half think that what the OP is doing is wrong though maybe not EVIL just evil.
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Meh. Nobody's suffering.
You're supporting the poor, and your profits aren't coming from the pastries themselves, so it's not like the low-level addiction is putting ordinary folks in the poor-house.
Folks are compelled to talk a bit more than they would otherwise, but this could be as easily achieved with mundane means. Ply them with alcohol for instance, or have pretty ladies* pretend to be interested in men to draw them out. You're not forcing anyone to tell tales, you're just encouraging them to be more talkative - as I read it.
Then you're selling "secrets". Really, who's to say how that information is used? You may actually be making the city more peaceful by getting a bunch of things out in the open.
It seems to me that your intention is: make personal profit while providing a service to people willing to pay, while not particularly harming anyone.
So where's the evil?
Give the paladin a cookie and ask him to explain - at length - what his gripe is. Then tell him you dosed the cookie... with extra sugar - it was awfully good, wasn't it... want more? - and that he voluntarily talked about things he was willing to share, because you encouraged it. How is magic different from sugar and words?
*Insert all standard gender-rotation options. You recognize the shape of the concept being worked here.
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If I started selling nicotine (for a relatively harmless addiction) and sodium pentathol (for loose lips) brownies to people without telling them what was in them, I'd go to jail.
If I started lacing people's drinks to make them more talkative than they thought they would get, that's clearly wrong.
That guy who promised his wife he'd cut back on sweets is now betraying that promise, not because he's weak willed, but because you forced him. (And it might not be as 'trivial' as losing weight: perhaps the local barber-dentist has had to pull a few too many of his teeth, or even though he's not 'poor', he's trying to do the equivalent of cutting the latte habit and save a few coppers a day to save for the future.)
F+&#ing with others' free will for fun and profit is exactly what LE does. (You say you're not making money, but information is valuable too.)
Some people are commenting to the effect of 'You magnificent bastard, I wish I'd thought of that'. Magnificent Bastards are often LE.
Your justification seems to be 'I don't see myself as a bad person, how can I be evil?' Evil people never think they're bad people. They think they're clever people. Or 'special' people. The hero of their own story. Only poorly written cartoons eat a basket of puppies just to prove their evil cred.
TL;DR: If you have to explain why it isn't Evil, it's usually Evil. If you are hurting others for your own gain, that is the definition of Evil.
As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil.
School abjuration; Level cleric 5, druid 5
Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (burning incense), F (a set of prayer beads or other prayer device worth at least 500 gp), DF
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.
Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.
Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, regardless of the actual alignment in question.
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement offers a method for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.