Gellos Thran's page

A neutral character doesn't always need to be good but I can't see someone continuously and callously selling information that could ruin lives because it doesn't affect them specifically as being neutral. He's not on a mission (good), its not for some specific goal or cause (neutral) its solely a fishing expedition to increase his power and profits (evil)
As others said diplomacy is words, something their aware of and a dedicated person can still say "your my best friend but I can't tell you this." Whereas you've said your magic makes them more talkative and honest than they would normally be.

At what point did I ever say I ruined anyone's life? Also, your criteria for good and neutral sound like the same thing. A specific cause or goal is basically a mission. Once again not good equals evil. I think you misunderstand how a diplomacy check works. It's to get you to tell me something you don't necessarily want to tell me. Otherwise there is no point to the skill. The person in question would just answer anything you asked. FYI, a skilled interrogator (high diplomacy skill) can get people to admit to or talk about all kinds of things that they wouldn't normally even mention.

Gellos Thran wrote:

Sir Reginald would find, much to his sorrow, that I wield a considerable amount of influence in Magnimar and the city guards would be happy to escort him right out of town for those kinds of antics.

This quote right here told me far more about his character than the rest of his passage.

What would that be? That in a situation where another person sets themselves up as a problem/threat to me I choose to use a minimum of force to end the problem as non violently as possible? How evil of me!

The person your making a dipolmacy check on is aware of what your doing, since its face to face and not a pie roofie. To me that makes a big difference.

Diplomacy you just convince the fellow to tell you whats up. They're aware of what your doing and your motives for doing such. You're using magic to alter their very mind to suit your desires. If the spell simply made you more convincing and was cast on yourself then there would be no problems. But as it is, you are altering other people's minds without their knowledge for your own gain.

I understand what both of you are saying with this but I have a slightly different point of view on this. If you use diplomacy to gather information the person you are talking to may or may not know what you are doing to them. If you don't believe that someone can unknowingly say things without realizing they are being interrogated just ask some of the married men that might be reading this how often they have "talked" themselves into trouble with their wife without even realizing what they were doing before it was to late. Chances are, no magical food was involved. As a wizard, I can't afford to invest tons of skill points into diplomacy so I cover that by using magic instead.

Yes, of course one can balance the scales by doing Good. but this mostly only works if either:

Your bad deeds were unintentional, caused by miscalculations or carelessness. For example- chasing down a very BBEG thru the city you unleash a fireball, forgetting where you are. You destroy some property, fry a beggar. Repairing everything, give him a good burial and alms to his family makes up for a lot (maybe even a Raise dead?). Intent is a lot here. The Op's intent is evil or at least not good.

OR

You repent your previously life of evil and wish to atone. But this includes no longer doing evil. The Op continues the evil acts. If this had been done once as a set piece to get info about some evil skullduggery in the city, it could be forgiven and atoned (not to mention fiendishly clever). But it continues.

OP- you mean your friend Nick doesn't even have access to the internet?!?

I find that you, like many others, are shading things a little in favor of good being the norm and anything else being evil. If I have a habit of giving a few coins to a beggar every time I pass him are you going to argue that I need to shift to a good alignment because what I did was intentionally good? By your reasoning, since what I did was an intentional act of good I would have to balance this with an intentionally evil act to balance the scales. Or are you trying to say that because this act was intentionally good that I am forever doomed with no way to balance the scales? From what I am reading most posters who favor your line of thinking believe that if I am neutral I still have to adhere closely to the good side of things or I will shift to evil. If so what's the point of even having a neutral alignment?

And yes, Nick has no access to the internet.

Asked to my husband. He says: you don't hurt anyone, and give food and money to the poor... You're definitely not evil. You could even be good. But you're definitely not lawful, either. He thinks you're CG.

I am curious how he thinks I am chaotic? I routinely operate inside a system of laws and use them to further my own ends.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, but it sounds like this guy is doing this with good--if somewhat self-serving--intentions.

What is the road to Hell paved with?

I never claimed to have good intentions. Just self serving ones.

What I don't understand is why the OP is going through all the trouble. If he describes his character using magic to enhance the taste and quality of his products, then he will have the exact same effect WITHOUT all of the evil stigma or stuck up paladins.

Because in real life I make cupcakes with flour and sugar. When I play Pathfinder I am someone who uses forces that alter the very reality around me. Ask a wizard to make something better than average and of course his go to solution is going to be magic even if it's not absolutely required. I am just role playing him the way he would solve a problem, not the way I would.

Very well since people are resorting to hyperbole I shall give an irrefutable reason as to why he is the moat Evil of evil beings. When he told us about the other information broker who tried to eliminate him he didn't mention the name of his employee who was killed and replaced. In fact I'll bet he doesn't even know their name much less arranged a proper funeral or offered support to his widow and 12 kids.

That assumes an awful lot with zero evidence to support those assumptions.

Dishonesty?

Not the whole tricking people into eating your magic roofie pies so they'll divulge important information to you that they otherwise wouldn't have? And that they'll be compelled to come back and have more? That definitely sounds a little mind rapey to me. It's just more subtle than complete domination. It forces you to want to give that information away to begin with. How is forcing someone to want to tell you something not as bad as forcing them to tell you?

Because that reeks of sinister intent to me, regardless what that information is then being used for.

This is a hefty disregard for the free will of your fellow man and I'd chalk that up as definitely being Lawful and with all that personal gain going on, I'd say it dips you into Neutral Evil. And since you skirt the law to make this all happen, I'd say it smack dabs you right in Lawful Evil.

If I used a diplomacy check to get this info I bet you would not say a word about this. Because the word magic is used everyone wants to start equating that with real world drug effects. Ask a carpenter do build something and he will use a hammer and nails. Ask a wizard to do something and he will use magic. Why? Because magic is the tool of his trade. You can't equate that to something in the real world.

This thread has nothing to do with alignment. It's not even a question of morality... The PC is 'charming' innocents for his own personal benefit and selling the secrets he learns for personal gain.

These aren't the acts of an honest or good person.

Yes it does and no they are not. Hence the word good does not appear in my alignment. My point all along, people see that I am not good and rule I must be evil. Why does this game even have a neutral alignment if people just want to see everything in black and white?

So many arguments for and against are flying straight past each other because we still don't know how this works. I see people saying "the pastries are just extra delicious" and people saying "he's mind-controlling them with compulsion magic," and I can't even tell which side is right because I read it as a magical compulsion at first, and the OP has never confirmed or rejected either claim. It's very hard to reach a conclusion on what alignment his actions are when we don't even know and properly understand what they do.

I refer you to my earlier answer of the same question.

Addiction might be a strong term. I did say I didn't want people developing an addiction in my OP. It's more of a spell that makes them very desirable not irresistible.

To memorax: Thank you!

Did you miss the part where the OP said it makes them more truthful not more talkative? The 2 spells are 'come back for more' and 'be more truthful', seem to me that someone has be asking question for the 'be more truthful' to be useful.

Not exactly correct sir.

A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be.

A few quick responses.
DrDeth: I have not invited Nick to respond. Mainly because he would have to, most likely, come to my house and use my computer to do so. I am going to let him read as much of this as he wants to this weekend when we game however. I do regret calling him a dick. I am frustrated with him at the moment but he has been and will continue to be a good friend. He is just like a little brother who can aggravate you to no end sometimes.

A general response to a number of posters: It seems a few people do think I am being evil. I say maybe not GOOD but not EVIL either. I am hesitant to bring Thrair into this since he said he will not be posting anymore comments but I think he made my point for me.

Gellos Thran wrote:

Sir Reginald would find, much to his sorrow, that I wield a considerable amount of influence in Magnimar and the city guards would be happy to escort him right out of town for those kinds of antics.

And this a worrying attitude. Someone with noble goals feels you're doing something wrong, and you use your influence to have him removed from the city. Although this seems to have been a hypothetical response, if your character has the general attitude, that smacks of abuse of authority to avoid prosecution.

I apologize up front to Thrair if I am misinterpreting what he means but I take away from this the feeling that he thinks that what I am doing is wrong/evil. My whole point is that while its not nice its not evil either. It is also absolutely what a Lawful Neutral person would do. I would be working within the system to gain my goal (Lawful)while eliminating an obstacle without resorting to truly nasty means.(Neutral) An Lawful Evil character would use his position and influence to have Sir Reginald arrested and the either imprisoned or executed. Chaotic Evil would just hire the local assassins guild to remove his head. While I am not being good in that instance I am not being evil either. That his been my point all along. I may be self serving and I may not be nice but I am not behaving in an evil manner either. That's Neutral. If White=Good and Black=Evil Then Neutral is in a gray area and that's exactly where I am operating.

Well I was trying to go through this and answer or respond to a lot of you. I don't think I can keep up by giving you all individual responses so I am just, for the most part, going to go with some general responses. First, to answer Jacob directly, yes sir I totally stole that from ERB. Ras Thavas was the Mastermind of Mars. A brilliant, amoral, Evil Genius. Don't read into that.

For more general responses, I am not trying to be defensive. I am trying to talk to or respond to a lot of you. I have enjoyed all of your responses and opinions. I am fairly new to posting here so I don't really know any of you but I will gladly talk to you and debate with you in a friendly manner. To Thair specifically, please don't feel you can't continue to discuss this. It's a game. It's meant to be fun and people should be able to talk about it without any hard feelings. You are never going to get everyone to have the same view point and what fun would it be if you did?

I am not really trying to say what I am doing isn't somewhat evil. It is. I just don't think it is grounds for an alignment shift. I think Nick is being a dick. He could role play his Paladins reaction to this but he is not. Anything else I have put up for discussion is just for fun. To be fair the GM is hand waving a lot of things for this plot to work but its about having fun and it gives the GM a unique way to push us info and develop plot hooks. If it really bothers Nick he should just say so or if he thinks it is evil and doesn't sit well with his character he should role play it.

I see some metagame problem here:
If one pc earns lots of money on the side without really doing much for it that can cause trouble. Maybe the paladin player just argues for an alignment change because he dislikes your pc being handed free loads of money.
Often times devious plots like yours get rewarded while doing god things for the community are not. With the power magic wielding pcs have it is easy to disrupt economy in a way that is beneficial for you. But should that be done?

For example one could buy a chicken farm, spread some epizootic disease that affects chickens and cure/protect his own stock. After some time his farm would be the only one still producing eggs and the price would skyrocket. Not as complex as the OPs plot but given some time you can easily find many things to earn money on the side through spells.

GMs should be wary of this and think twice before allowing a passive money flow towards one pc.

Yes this makes money. Sometimes a good amount of it. Am I far ahead of the other players wealth wise? Not really. I am pretty free with spending the money on things that advance plot point and don't provide tangible benefits. Sure I have extra cash the others don't but everyone is allowed craft and profession skills. It's not my fault they don't use them. If I use a skill to make money it is not unfair. I don't complain that the rogue can pick locks and I can't because I didn't put any points in disable device.

Drachasor wrote:

He specifically said in the OP his pastries aren't addictive.

I read the original post.

Gellos Tharn wrote:

I'm not talking about a drug addiction kind of thing. It's more like they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt".

Thesaurus wrote:

2. -- addiction - an abnormally strong craving

He's pretty much defined addiction in his justification it's not addiction.

No one said it was abnormally strong. Maybe I should have been a little clearer. The magic increases the enjoyment of the item. IT'S NOT ADDICTIVE! I don't know how many times I have to say that.

I still disagree on the charity thing he's not donating to "orphans are us" he's giving magical roofies and paymet for information to get the urchins to tell him things worth onowing if they stopped tellling him things I suspect he'd stop giving them things.

Also in his words he's passing on ANY information worth selling (presumably with no client control) to make a profit, not to benefit the city and there's no indication of any info being withheld.

Additionally he stated the spells given to notable passers by make them a little more chatty and truthful than they'd like to be. That implies there's some compulsion to share things they would rather keep secret.

Again I reserve judgement till we get more info but this could very easily be evil as opposed to Evil much less EVIL bit he is magically extracting information he then sells to apparently whoever can meet the price with no conderns about how its used.

Ok I need to clarify a little. Orphans are not getting magic cakes. (I wouldn't waste them) They are just being given somefood and a silver piece or two. I guess I wasn't clear and that's my fault. I don't sell ANY information, just information that I see no value in keeping a personal secret. Even then I am not totally indiscriminate. I live in Magnimar. Doing things that damage the city and the status quo are not in my best interests.

Forget the good/evil thing.

A better question is "what are the NPCs doing about a PC pulling a non-trivial amount of money/secrets out of the town?"

The kind of thing he is doing is something that thieves guilds, not to mention kingdom level spy organizations REALLY frown upon. I would expect them to start dropping the hammer any time now.

Yeah that happened once. Another would be power broker, this one absolutely evil, decided to get rid of me. As I mentioned I am very careful that my rogue intermediary does not know who I am. The one who was working for me at the time met a bad end because he couldn't give up my identity even if he wanted to. This lead to a short information war until I finally figured out who was trying to take me out. He learned the hard way that a wand of lightning bolts is a very unpleasant thing when you are not prepared for it.

Gellos Thran wrote:

I do routinely place various enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods.

Do you advertise that your baked goods are enchanted? What kind of enchantments? To what end?

Gellos Thran wrote:

They just make the patron want more.

Ah, so, to your benefit then? You affect their free will, negatively, reducing their own freedom to make decisions, to increase your profits. That's evil. Minor evil, but still evil. Not to mention, that makes each enchanted pastry you sell a minorly evil act. How many pastries do you sell? In a city like Magnimar, probably a fair amount. With each sale being an evil act, that builds up to a whole lot of evil acts rather quickly.

Gellos Thran wrote:

A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be. These are usually given to town guards and other notable passersby for free.

Now, that's not so minorly evil. You, effectively, zone of truth people without their knowledge or consent? And then send them out into the city to accidentally cause mayhem? Don't underestimate the damage that the pure, unadulterated truth can cause. Particularly the guards. That's thoughtless, careless and callous.

Gellos Thran wrote:

A lot of my goods are given away to the poor. Many times along with small amounts of coin.

We're back on the good train here. Charity is good. Do you get anything in return? Do you expect it? If nothing is/was offered, would you continue to be charitable? Are these charitable goods ever of the enchanted variety? I think giving the baked goods that encourage people to buy from you to the poor wouldn't really be charity at all.

Gellos Thran wrote:

Between the enchantments and the charity everyone from the highest noble to the lowest urchin tells me all the secrets worth knowing in town.

...ooookay. That puts a lot of power in your hands. Was this your goal? What do you do with this power?

Gellos Thran wrote:

I am like a giant spider sitting at the center of a vast information web.

Not really painting yourself in the best light here. Spiders are predators. Are you a predator? Are all the people caught in your "web" merely playthings to you? Pawns? Tools to be used and discarded? Means to an end? Or perhaps there is a better light to this? Mayhaps they are all in your web of protection?

Gellos Thran wrote:

I also know a lot of tidbits that, while unimportant to me, are of the highest importance to others. That's when my other "employee" comes into play. I have a low level rogue I use as an information broker. He never meets me personally (I mentioned I know magic, right?) but I pass along all the info I think can be useful to others and he sells it. Many times for a high price.

So, for fun and profit then? I note that the only criteria you use here is info you think can be useful to others. So, guard rotations? Safe combinations? Details of mistresses? Blackmail and extortion are not really lawful. And if you do it indiscriminately it's not Good either. Actually, kinda Evil. I mean, someone might say Neutral, but if people are dying because you don't care enough to vet the info, then it's Evil, regardless of whether you do it to both the Good and the Evil or just one.

Gellos Thran wrote:

And thus, our Paladin has his panties in a bunch. Out of game, I think the player is just a little jealous of how easy I make money.

Your first reaction is to dismiss his concerns out of hand, and write it off as jealousy of all the money you're making? That's kinda got evil written all over it. I mean, if it's the money you're making, and he's a fellow party member, why not let him share in it? If that doesn't solve the problem, then it's not just the money. And if you're unwilling to do that, then money means more to you than working with Good. That's, once again, kinda evil.

Gellos Thran wrote:

He is trying to argue that it's evil to addict people and steal information from them.

He's right. These two things are absolutely, without a doubt, Evil. If you're arguing that they're not, then you are definitely on the evil side of things. If you're arguing that these two things do not accurately represent what you're doing, then you need to say that and explain why they're not.

Gellos Thran wrote:

I point out that its no more evil than using a charm spell.

Which can be evil. I mean, it's not evil by definition, it's evil by intent. Charm the BBEG into not killing someone? Good. Charm the Paladin into killing babies? Evil. Charm is not evil by nature but by purpose. And your purpose appears to be profit, regardless of the consequences for others. That's evil.

Gellos Thran wrote:

Anyone have any thoughts on the morality of my businesses?

Bakery - Neutral.

Enchanted Pasties - Evil.

Charity - Good.

Information Brokering - Evil.

Net Alignment - Evil

For the first part I should have worded that better. I routinely place enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods earmarked for certain customers.

For the second question, I do sell a lot. Most of which is not enchanted. Third, I don't send anyone out to cause mayhem. I think an explanation of how it works is in order. Someone (like a guard) walks up. Conversation ensues and they get a free pastry. They eat it and unknowingly divulge a bit of gossip. Some minor non-related chit chat goes on and the effect ends as they continue on about their day.

Next up, charity. Food and coin are dispensed with no return expected. However, free food and coin are more than enough to make those on the receiving end want to bring back stories and rumors. Everyone who works at the bakery is known to be a terrible gossip. You can drop by anytime with a good story and know you will given a handout. Also you can just drop by and if you are down on your luck you can share any of the day olds being given away.

What do I do with all that power? Maintain the status quo mostly. I am no hero in that regard but it is to my benefit that the city have low crime and run well. I make sure really evil people have as little influence as possible. Why? Because those are the people who will screw me over.

As for the spider comment: Don't read into things.

The rogue sells information. For a profit. For the rest of your question, look up and read What do I do with all that power.

As for the Paladin, he does share in the money. Sort of. I use it to fund items I craft for him. I use it to fund expenses for the party when we are adventuring (which is most of the time). I am kind of that rich friend that always picks up the tab.

Thank you for your thoughts.

First, in my previous post I meant to thank everyone for their thoughts and opinions so thank you all.

Now for some specific responses.

Personally I love this I've never heard of a bakery spy mastery it's awesome.

I like this, you sir are a brilliant madman!

If no one dies because of your charms I would say you aren't evil. Heck I think charming someone in combat is a lot worse. Oh and that is the single coolest thing ever. Baker spy master wizard that has his finger in every pie. Quite literally in some cases, eh?

Thanks. In any game I play I try to do something original and avoid just going for maxed out stats and the same old hack and slash. Characters with an original concept are always more fun to play.

Hehehe. I dont think that's bad enough to make you evil (although it does lean in that direction), it might bring you towards true neutral (in my humble opinion).

-Addiction thing: evil, not super-evil, but evil nonetheless, more because of the fact people dont know than for the adictive effects.
-Information-gathering: that's legit. What do you think a bartender does? He uses alcohol, you use magic, no big difference.

Still, nice to see someone not being a murderhobo. My current magus character has a buttload of ranks in craft (clockwork) so maybe I should start a side-business...

Addiction might be a strong term. I did say I didn't want people developing an addiction in my OP. It's more of a spell that makes them very desirable not irresistible.

Clockworks huh? Little magical desk clocks that record whatever they hear and pass the info on to a bigger clock built into that giant tower at the center of town? How evil of you sir lol.

Depends on what kind of information you sell and who you sell it into but other than that i don't find it evil at all.

My question is though, how do you do it? what spells and in what way do you do it?

Well a lot of it is behind the scenes so we don't slow down play. I went to the GM out of game and told him in detail what I wanted to do. Obviously I am using custom spells that the GM and I talked over. I usually just craft a few wands and use them whenever I want to make magic cupcakes or whatever. I mean put a spell on the cupcakes not create them outright.

Rynjin I am not going to quote your post because it is very lengthy but I found it quite remarkable. It did also provoke quite a laugh from me. In a good way.

You're the stuff adventures are made of - basically a plot hook.

"Sir Reginald IV calls for adventurers to investigate the happenings of a bakery in town that the villagers seem to be drawn to. It's suspected that foul magic play is afoot. Whatever the cause, it must be stopped before the town is held completely hostage to the whims of the bakery!"

Sir Reginald would find, much to his sorrow, that I wield a considerable amount of influence in Magnimar and the city guards would be happy to escort him right out of town for those kinds of antics.

If I started selling nicotine (for a relatively harmless addiction) and sodium pentathol (for loose lips) brownies to people without telling them what was in them, I'd go to jail.

If I started lacing people's drinks to make them more talkative than they thought they would get, that's clearly wrong.

That guy who promised his wife he'd cut back on sweets is now betraying that promise, not because he's weak willed, but because you forced him. (And it might not be as 'trivial' as losing weight: perhaps the local barber-dentist has had to pull a few too many of his teeth, or even though he's not 'poor', he's trying to do the equivalent of cutting the latte habit and save a few coppers a day to save for the future.)

F+$$ing with others' free will for fun and profit is exactly what LE does. (You say you're not making money, but information is valuable too.)

Some people are commenting to the effect of 'You magnificent bastard, I wish I'd thought of that'. Magnificent Bastards are often LE.

Your justification seems to be 'I don't see myself as a bad person, how can I be evil?' Evil people never think they're bad people. They think they're clever people. Or 'special' people. The hero of their own story. Only poorly written cartoons eat a basket of puppies just to prove their evil cred.

TL;DR: If you have to explain why it isn't Evil, it's usually Evil. If you are hurting others for your own gain, that is the definition of Evil.

This is where I have to point out how my opinion differs from what a lot of people seem to be going with. I NEVER said I was GOOD. Just not EVIL. It seems like the consensus is that if I am not being good I must be evil. As I see it a neutral character is not defined by just one or the other. It is a mix of both. Otherwise they would just be one or the other. Is some of what I am doing on the shady side? Yes, absolutely. Is it good by definition? Certainly not. Does that make it evil? I don't think so.

Quote:

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve.

You're not being chaotic. You're carefully operating well within the law. However, you're trampling on free will and not giving informed consent. So you do not give a rat's ass about other being's dignity or well-being.

This is about the perfect textbook example of an evil character that would cause a Paladin to fall if they smote them for merely for detecting as evil.

You're evil, but in such a mundane and low-level way that killing you for it, or even harming you, would be a greater evil.

If he wants to really be a paladin in this matter, he should be trying to make people aware of what you're doing and/or trying to convince you it's wrong.

A paladin has more options than a binary "Evil Yes/No --> Smite Yes/No".

I will point out that at no time have I deprived anyone of their freedom (or free will as I did specifically say I didn't want them to be an addiction) nor have I damaged their dignity in any way. Also it says life not well being. A minor distinction but in any case I have not caused any deaths or even bodily harm.

I feel like creating a character and coming after your bakery, sword, spellbook and quick wits in hand.

This foul play must be stopped !!

Here, have a cupcake. I promise it will MAKE you feel better.

[fails save vs alignment thread]
"they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt". A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)"

Not the same The Beard. His example is mind control. I admit the how he uses it is very important, which seems to be OK for now. But it is theft of will and coin, a bit Robin Hood like if the targets were causing harm.

I'm not mind controlling anyone. Have a few drinks and the average person will get more chatty. That doesn't make the bartender evil. Nothing wrong with compelling someone to be truthful either. It's not nice but that's not the same as evil.

The Beard wrote:

What is wrong with maintaining a side business as a source of income?
Two things here. I wasn't talking necessarily about what the OP was doing with this question. I was asking another poster directly why an adventurer shouldn't be allowed to have a side business.

Because we're not playing cubicles and careers. There are scads of economic games out there- play Settlers of Catan. I mean, you have a chance to play a true Fantasy hero, one who legends are made of, and instead you want to spend time ordering flour, exchanging recipes and counting coppers in the till. It's mundane and boring. He can do that during his work 40 hours, not during the games very limited few hours.

I think you may be jumping to a few conclusions. As it happens we (the GM and I) go out of our way to make sure this mostly stays in the back ground and doesn't slow play. It's meant to add to the game not make it a night of fun with accounting.

Korthis wrote:

As to good or evil; I'd say it's not evil because you aren't harming the people (or creating an addiction), at the very least it's no more evil than if you had cast the spell...

Addiction is as addiction does. Note the OP says that he doesn't addict people, he just uses a psychotropic element (in this case, magical) to get them to want his stuff against their better judgment, thus forcing them to pay to devour his baked goods by the dozen.

LOL!

I can't imagine a bigger bag of BS. That's the very definition of addiction. Just because he tries to say it isn't, doesn't mean we can't use our own common sense.

Of course he's evil. He is a the epicenter of a web of deceit, information theft, addiction, lies, falsification, fraud... need I go on?

I mean, I like what he's got going. It sounds like a fun turn of events. But to paraphrase what I said above (and Forrest Gump for the second time) evil is as evil does. And he does evil.

He does evil right like KFC does chicken.

Umm.. Thanks? I think.

So, what happens when a magically inclined member of the watch wonders about the popularity of these pastries and casts detect magic on one?

If that happens I just point out that I could use a ton of sugar (expensive) to get the desired taste at the cost of the patron gaining weight or other health problems or just give it a little calorie free magic.

I should point out that not everything that goes through the door is enchanted. In fact the majority of it is not. I'm not made of magic.

Ok, Two pages worth of posts to respond to is all I have time for right now. Anything I didn't get to will have to wait.

Wow. I was hoping for a few replies but I didn't expect three pages worth over night. It took a bit to read through everything but the general response seems to be leaning towards it's evil. Maybe I should explain a few things more as well as answer some of the questions that seem to keep being asked.

First, It is not the Paladin I have a problem with. Keltos knows full well what kind of business Ras Thavas runs and he is careful never to eat there. Nick, who plays Keltos however, is the one I have trouble with. Nothing has been said in game. It's all coming from Nick straight to the GM.

Second, I don't see the spell aspect of things as evil. If I cast a charm spell on someone in the middle of a fight so they don't hit me in the face or out of a fight so they will spill all of their secrets about the BBEG no one says a thing. Both uses are self serving and subvert the will of others certainly, but Evil? Even when, in the second case, I am likely to use the knowledge I gain to shove a lightning bolt up someone's hind end, everyone just takes it in stride. It's ok to subvert someone's will for your benefit in one instance but not another?

The side job angle doesn't take away from the game. The GM and I talked it out before hand and most of the business side of things happens off camera so to speak. I do role play it a little but the day to day business is handled mostly by two very skilled bakers that I keep employed and when I am out of town they just run it as a normal bakery. Although we are based in Magnimar we do travel a good bit and I assure you I am just as murderous as any other hobo.

Now for the big one, what do I do with the money and the info? I'm not going to lie, some of both benefit me directly. A lot of it does not. The whole point for setting this up was never the money, it was always about information. Most of the money is a side benefit from the info I pick up. As for the money, it has been used to fund materials for various crafting projects. Every single party member is using at least one item that I was able to make for them free of charge. It also feeds countless poor people around town (who in turn pass on any tidbits of secrets they may hear). And when I have to deal with someone like a noble or city official who is not evil and does not warrant blackmail or aggressive negotiations it gets used to make donations to a charity or some such thing that will net me a positive response from that individual. Sometimes I just outright buy information as well. The information itself gets used for a variety of things. I sell a lot of it. That isn't necessarily something sinister. Many people will pay good money just to know what a business rival or romantic rival has been up to lately. Sometimes I use it for blackmail. That gets used against people who deserve it. Is it evil to blackmail a would be necromancer to leave town before he can cause trouble? When at all possible I try to gather information that will benefit the party directly with whatever adventure (hobo murder spree) we happen to be on at the time. All of that is self serving but is it really something to cause an alignment shift? I don't think so.

As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.

I am playing a 9th level wizard based in and around Magnimar. I learned (for me at least) a long time ago that the best characters are not the ones with the maxed out stats but the ones designed around a good concept or theme. As such, I have been working several angles with this character since I first started playing him. Very early on I took baking as a profession and put a few points into Craft: Baked Goods. That got a few funny looks from the other players. When the party started to acquire some treasure I bought a small one room building and set it up as a bake shop. These days the gold just flows into my pockets. Not because of the bakery itself (I don't think it even makes a profit) but because of what I do with it.

I have hired a man and his wife to work for me and for the most part they just bake and sell my wares. I do routinely place various enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods. Most of them are pretty harmless. They just make the patron want more. I'm not talking about a drug addiction kind of thing. The last thing I want is people stabbing each other in back alleys because they are desperate for a doughnut. It's more like they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt". A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be. These are usually given to town guards and other notable passersby for free. A lot of my goods are given away to the poor. Many times along with small amounts of coin. Between the enchantments and the charity everyone from the highest noble to the lowest urchin tells me all the secrets worth knowing in town.

I am like a giant spider sitting at the center of a vast information web. Many times information important to the campaign finds it's way to me. I also know a lot of tidbits that, while unimportant to me, are of the highest importance to others. That's when my other "employee" comes into play. I have a low level rogue I use as an information broker. He never meets me personally (I mentioned I know magic, right?) but I pass along all the info I think can be useful to others and he sells it. Many times for a high price.

And thus, our Paladin has his panties in a bunch. Out of game, I think the player is just a little jealous of how easy I make money. (I also do a good bit of crafting but that's a whole other thing) He is trying to argue that it's evil to addict people and steal information from them. I point out that its no more evil than using a charm spell.

Anyone have any thoughts on the morality of my businesses?

I am playing PF for the first time soon and I will be running a mix of experienced and inexperienced players. Some of us have many years gaming experience but none of us have played PF yet. I plan to use the modules Crypt of the Everflame and it's sequels, Masks of the Living God and City of Golden Death to break everyone in to the PF system.

Spoilers ahead, read at your own risk.

The problem is none of them seem to fit together very well and the later ones have some issues all of their own.Reading over all the modules it feels like each one was written after the last and no thought was put into laying plot lines for following modules. For example, Crypt has the tomb disturbed by grave robbers who were hired via a handbill when Masks has them as members of the Razmir cult. An easy fix since I know about it but still.

Anyway, here are a few of the problems not so easily fixed.

1. Motivation. Roleplaying is like trying to solve a murder in that you always have to ask "Who benefits"? Why are the players doing this? In Crypt it's obvious as they are on a quest and want to make a name for themselves but what about Masks? Cygar wants the PC's to track down the grave robbers and bring them to justice. Why? Really, what does he care? I thought Pathfinders were all about exploring tombs, crypts and ruins. This seems a tad hypocritical. Reginar wants them to infiltrate the cult but again, WHY? I don't see the angle that makes this Pathfinder business. Since when did a group of explorers become the world police? And lets not Forget about City of Golden Death. No player in their right mind would do this. Go to a city that Reginar as good as tells them to their face is going to leave them mentally scared at the very least, just to track down a woman they have never met and has certainly never done anything to them personally to warrant the PC's to take this level of personal risk? That seems unlikely.

2. Loot. Kassen and crew made their fortunes in the city of golden death. Kassen hauled away enough to found his own settlement. The characters are going to get what? Next to nothing. Everything is rigged so that this fabulous city of gold is all a sham. It's all look but don't take. This seems like a cruel bait and switch that is sure to really piss my players off. If it worked for Kassen and friends why not them? About the best answer I can think of so far is just to let them haul off as much as they can carry. If this is the case I am going to have to make sure no one has any magical means of hauling large amounts of loot and I hate to "cheat" like that. Anyone have a solution to this?

3. The cult. The world Guide states that Acolytes are sent to the Exalted Wood for training and come back changed, acting in league with the faith despite any previous misgivings. This makes sense. You should always brainwash new members of your cult. Otherwise, you get people who join under false pretenses just to get enough inside information on your misdeeds to expose you for what you are and ruin the fun for everyone. People just like the PC's. This is a cult that can not afford to have it's secrets exposed and yet it seems that their screening process goes as far as asking the PC's "Hey, wanna join our club"? Really? They just leave them locked up for a day and then keep an eye on them so a few more days. I am going to have to change this, otherwise the whole cult of Razmir is just a joke that the averge five year old could expose. I hate to make this just a surveilance job followed by a straight up assault but what else is there? Anyone know a good way for the PC's to infiltrate the temple without making the cultist seem totally inept? Maybe a failsafe that snaps them out of whatever is done to them? That seems like it would have already been used if it were that esay. I plan to use the Church of Razmir later in the campaign so I want them to come out of this as a serious menace that the PC's don't scoff at or take lightly. Any ideas are welcome.