A better question, rules wise, might be how is this being paid for?
If the pastries are full-on magic items, they're costing a handful of gold each to make, minimum.
Well, of course the cost issue can be solved by using the magic to take money from people against their will.
Of course, if the entire operation depends on doing this to people that isn't justified against, it turns to Evil again.
I see some metagame problem here:
If one pc earns lots of money on the side without really doing much for it that can cause trouble. Maybe the paladin player just argues for an alignment change because he dislikes your pc being handed free loads of money.
Often times devious plots like yours get rewarded while doing god things for the community are not. With the power magic wielding pcs have it is easy to disrupt economy in a way that is beneficial for you. But should that be done?For example one could buy a chicken farm, spread some epizootic disease that affects chickens and cure/protect his own stock. After some time his farm would be the only one still producing eggs and the price would skyrocket. Not as complex as the OPs plot but given some time you can easily find many things to earn money on the side through spells.
GMs should be wary of this and think twice before allowing a passive money flow towards one pc.
Yes this makes money. Sometimes a good amount of it. Am I far ahead of the other players wealth wise? Not really. I am pretty free with spending the money on things that advance plot point and don't provide tangible benefits. Sure I have extra cash the others don't but everyone is allowed craft and profession skills. It's not my fault they don't use them. If I use a skill to make money it is not unfair. I don't complain that the rogue can pick locks and I can't because I didn't put any points in disable device.
Drachasor wrote:He specifically said in the OP his pastries aren't addictive.
I read the original post.
Gellos Tharn wrote:
I'm not talking about a drug addiction kind of thing. It's more like they walk down the street and see the bake shop and say "I know the wife wants me to loose a few pounds but their pastries are SO GOOD! Just one won't hurt".
Thesaurus wrote:
2. -- addiction - an abnormally strong craving
He's pretty much defined addiction in his justification it's not addiction.
No one said it was abnormally strong. Maybe I should have been a little clearer. The magic increases the enjoyment of the item. IT'S NOT ADDICTIVE! I don't know how many times I have to say that.
I still disagree on the charity thing he's not donating to "orphans are us" he's giving magical roofies and paymet for information to get the urchins to tell him things worth onowing if they stopped tellling him things I suspect he'd stop giving them things.Also in his words he's passing on ANY information worth selling (presumably with no client control) to make a profit, not to benefit the city and there's no indication of any info being withheld.
Additionally he stated the spells given to notable passers by make them a little more chatty and truthful than they'd like to be. That implies there's some compulsion to share things they would rather keep secret.
Again I reserve judgement till we get more info but this could very easily be evil as opposed to Evil much less EVIL bit he is magically extracting information he then sells to apparently whoever can meet the price with no conderns about how its used.
Ok I need to clarify a little. Orphans are not getting magic cakes. (I wouldn't waste them) They are just being given somefood and a silver piece or two. I guess I wasn't clear and that's my fault. I don't sell ANY information, just information that I see no value in keeping a personal secret. Even then I am not totally indiscriminate. I live in Magnimar. Doing things that damage the city and the status quo are not in my best interests.
Forget the good/evil thing.A better question is "what are the NPCs doing about a PC pulling a non-trivial amount of money/secrets out of the town?"
The kind of thing he is doing is something that thieves guilds, not to mention kingdom level spy organizations REALLY frown upon. I would expect them to start dropping the hammer any time now.
Yeah that happened once. Another would be power broker, this one absolutely evil, decided to get rid of me. As I mentioned I am very careful that my rogue intermediary does not know who I am. The one who was working for me at the time met a bad end because he couldn't give up my identity even if he wanted to. This lead to a short information war until I finally figured out who was trying to take me out. He learned the hard way that a wand of lightning bolts is a very unpleasant thing when you are not prepared for it.
Gellos Thran wrote:
I do routinely place various enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods.
Do you advertise that your baked goods are enchanted? What kind of enchantments? To what end?
Gellos Thran wrote:
They just make the patron want more.
Ah, so, to your benefit then? You affect their free will, negatively, reducing their own freedom to make decisions, to increase your profits. That's evil. Minor evil, but still evil. Not to mention, that makes each enchanted pastry you sell a minorly evil act. How many pastries do you sell? In a city like Magnimar, probably a fair amount. With each sale being an evil act, that builds up to a whole lot of evil acts rather quickly.
Gellos Thran wrote:
A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be. These are usually given to town guards and other notable passersby for free.
Now, that's not so minorly evil. You, effectively, zone of truth people without their knowledge or consent? And then send them out into the city to accidentally cause mayhem? Don't underestimate the damage that the pure, unadulterated truth can cause. Particularly the guards. That's thoughtless, careless and callous.
Gellos Thran wrote:
A lot of my goods are given away to the poor. Many times along with small amounts of coin.
We're back on the good train here. Charity is good. Do you get anything in return? Do you expect it? If nothing is/was offered, would you continue to be charitable? Are these charitable goods ever of the enchanted variety? I think giving the baked goods that encourage people to buy from you to the poor wouldn't really be charity at all.
Gellos Thran wrote:
Between the enchantments and the charity everyone from the highest noble to the lowest urchin tells me all the secrets worth knowing in town.
...ooookay. That puts a lot of power in your hands. Was this your goal? What do you do with this power?
Gellos Thran wrote:
I am like a giant spider sitting at the center of a vast information web.
Not really painting yourself in the best light here. Spiders are predators. Are you a predator? Are all the people caught in your "web" merely playthings to you? Pawns? Tools to be used and discarded? Means to an end? Or perhaps there is a better light to this? Mayhaps they are all in your web of protection?
Gellos Thran wrote:
I also know a lot of tidbits that, while unimportant to me, are of the highest importance to others. That's when my other "employee" comes into play. I have a low level rogue I use as an information broker. He never meets me personally (I mentioned I know magic, right?) but I pass along all the info I think can be useful to others and he sells it. Many times for a high price.
So, for fun and profit then? I note that the only criteria you use here is info you think can be useful to others. So, guard rotations? Safe combinations? Details of mistresses? Blackmail and extortion are not really lawful. And if you do it indiscriminately it's not Good either. Actually, kinda Evil. I mean, someone might say Neutral, but if people are dying because you don't care enough to vet the info, then it's Evil, regardless of whether you do it to both the Good and the Evil or just one.
Gellos Thran wrote:
And thus, our Paladin has his panties in a bunch. Out of game, I think the player is just a little jealous of how easy I make money.
Your first reaction is to dismiss his concerns out of hand, and write it off as jealousy of all the money you're making? That's kinda got evil written all over it. I mean, if it's the money you're making, and he's a fellow party member, why not let him share in it? If that doesn't solve the problem, then it's not just the money. And if you're unwilling to do that, then money means more to you than working with Good. That's, once again, kinda evil.
Gellos Thran wrote:
He is trying to argue that it's evil to addict people and steal information from them.
He's right. These two things are absolutely, without a doubt, Evil. If you're arguing that they're not, then you are definitely on the evil side of things. If you're arguing that these two things do not accurately represent what you're doing, then you need to say that and explain why they're not.
Gellos Thran wrote:
I point out that its no more evil than using a charm spell.
Which can be evil. I mean, it's not evil by definition, it's evil by intent. Charm the BBEG into not killing someone? Good. Charm the Paladin into killing babies? Evil. Charm is not evil by nature but by purpose. And your purpose appears to be profit, regardless of the consequences for others. That's evil.
Gellos Thran wrote:
Anyone have any thoughts on the morality of my businesses?
Bakery - Neutral.
Enchanted Pasties - Evil.
Charity - Good.
Information Brokering - Evil.
Net Alignment - Evil
For the first part I should have worded that better. I routinely place enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods earmarked for certain customers.
For the second question, I do sell a lot. Most of which is not enchanted. Third, I don't send anyone out to cause mayhem. I think an explanation of how it works is in order. Someone (like a guard) walks up. Conversation ensues and they get a free pastry. They eat it and unknowingly divulge a bit of gossip. Some minor non-related chit chat goes on and the effect ends as they continue on about their day.
Next up, charity. Food and coin are dispensed with no return expected. However, free food and coin are more than enough to make those on the receiving end want to bring back stories and rumors. Everyone who works at the bakery is known to be a terrible gossip. You can drop by anytime with a good story and know you will given a handout. Also you can just drop by and if you are down on your luck you can share any of the day olds being given away.
What do I do with all that power? Maintain the status quo mostly. I am no hero in that regard but it is to my benefit that the city have low crime and run well. I make sure really evil people have as little influence as possible. Why? Because those are the people who will screw me over.
As for the spider comment: Don't read into things.
The rogue sells information. For a profit. For the rest of your question, look up and read What do I do with all that power.
As for the Paladin, he does share in the money. Sort of. I use it to fund items I craft for him. I use it to fund expenses for the party when we are adventuring (which is most of the time). I am kind of that rich friend that always picks up the tab.
Thank you for your thoughts.
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So, Op have you invited the paladin player here yet?
They eat it and unknowingly divulge a bit of gossip. Some minor non-related chit chat goes on and the effect ends as they continue on about their day.
This right here is wrong.
No matter how you split the hair, the fact is you're using magic on unknowing subjects to force them to divulge knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have which is wrong. You are subtlety altering their free will and that's a big no no in many places. However that's not enough to net you evil. That drops you in Lawful believe it or not. Chaotic is the one who cares about free will.
And then you also use it for personal gain which is smack dab in Neutral Evil.
Which would make you about Lawful Evil.
My opinion is that while you are committing evil acts they are not very evil and do not warrant an evil alignment. However you are acting the opposite of lawful, your alignment should be Neutral, not lawful neutral.
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I suppose the fact that the alignment system does, in fact, result in various aligned acts being able to balance one another out when properly used is completely irrelevant, then. I'd also say the fact that this information is being used to benefit the party and city would qualify as mitigating factors. Even then, there's nothing inherently evil bout coaxing people to talk. In any case, people that think what he's doing should constitute immediately dropping to neutral evil, as has been repeatedly suggested, seem to take a very hardline view regarding evil acts.
Guess everyone whose character manipulates others to its advantage only to turn right around and commit multiple good acts should immediately slide to evil; someone broke Pharasma's scales.
Edit to clarify: I do not at all care what "real world morality" makes of the situation. All that matters is that the alignment system would not, in fact, automatically shift this person down into evil when so much else is going on to balance it out.
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Just further thought on the subject.
evil people have a right to freedoms just like everyone else. I think we tend to like characters who act first because they get things done efficiently, but it is not a high ground they take.
If you don't want the game to get side tracked, perhaps th GM could show approval from a good diety or organization. They might demand a tithe or tax to towpne down the income and monitor your actions, making sure you don't go double agent.
/I'm glad this is pretty tame of a thread btw. Sorry if any of my hyperbole was out of line for the tone of the thread.
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So using charm spells isnt evil, though i have yet to see someone ask for permission to cast that spell on them.
Bards (or other faces) should be evil cause darn it that +30 to diplomacy shifts my attitude to helpful and i start telling them things i normally wouldnt.
I do tend to agree its not exactly lawful, and its not exactly neutral, but i certainly dont think its omg you ping as evil now... unless like others have stated your like selling out the goods to the bads cause they pay more. It really is a cause and effect thing in my opinion. Is the net effect of the spy ring good, bad or indifferent?
So let's try turning this thing around. What if this was being used on YOUR character? What if someone was selling your character sweets that you just cant help but love, and in the process,your character's secrets were being divulged. And then the person who drugged your PC uses those secrets to get an advantage over you, and to make money.
What would you call them,and more importantly, what would you expect to do about them?
Turn that around and that's what you can expect to have happen to your character.
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** spoiler omitted **
VS.
** spoiler omitted **
I'd say stealing information is not so different from stealing anything else so not very lawful. Drugging people against their will is also unlawful (i would think). As to good or evil; I'd say it's not evil because you aren't harming the people (or creating an addiction), at the very least it's no more evil than if you had cast the spell directly on the people (which I don't think is evil). Your spell delivery system is just unorthodox.
This.
I would shift your alignment to neutral unless you are doing this at the service of a higher power or you are the ruler of the city or his spymaster.You are not good, but you aren't evil unless you use the informations you gain for evil ends.
It's not significantly evil. And by engaging in public charity works, you're painting yourself, overall, as a non-evil guy - Lawful Neutral should be just fine. Now, if you were enabling or aiding people to screw each other over in a significant way, then the spider's good works would start to diminish compared to the proportion of harm you'd inflict. Then, the slide to evil would really begin.
From the OP post: "A slightly less benign spell makes the patron a little more chatty (and truthful)than they might want to be. These are usually given to town guards and other notable passersby for free. A lot of my goods are given away to the poor. Many times along with small amounts of coin. Between the enchantments and the charity everyone from the highest noble to the lowest urchin tells me all the secrets worth knowing in town.", so his "charity" has secondary motives that have nothing to do with charity. I wouldn't count it as a good act.
If I am smuggling weapons Gaza and I hide my smuggled goods into trucks that I load with food for the poor of Gaza, I am not doing a humanitarian act, I am smuggling weapons.
The problem is that it is also being used to benefit a lot of others. This fact seems to be getting repeatedly overlooked by people in the "it's evil" camp.
Even granting that, committing an evil act in the name of the greater good doesn't change the fact that the act itself is evil. It might mitigate the evil or offset but the act itself is still evil.
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Replace "bakery" with "apple store". Seriously though, glowing rectangles have hypnotized the masses.You're the stuff adventures are made of - basically a plot hook.
"Sir Reginald IV calls for adventurers to investigate the happenings of a bakery in town that the villagers seem to be drawn to. It's suspected that foul magic play is afoot. Whatever the cause, it must be stopped before the town is held completely hostage to the whims of the bakery!"
Bonvi said that 40 years ago. TV is the final weapon of doktor Goebbels .
It is sad that I can't find a translated strip to link.Text:
"And that is the final weapon of doktor Goebbels? Don't make me laugh!"
"It is a simple crate that ...that ..."
"Nurse!"
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I'm gonna be the odd man out here (judging by the first ten posts, that is) and say it doesn't seem evil. It's definitely morally ambiguous, but not far enough south of neutral to qualify as really evil. I mean, is a man who eavesdrops on private conversations evil? No, he's just a jackass.
You could argue that the mind-altering magic tips it over, sure, except the rules don't classify Charm Person as at all evil--or even morally dubious. They're just tools. Cruel to use on people without their consent? Sure. Evil? That seems a bit much.
I'd say change your alignment to True Neutral and it works just fine.
EDIT: What's with so many people saying information brokering is evil? I guess those ladies from the Music Man who sang "Pick A Little" were actually Chaotic Evil rogues? Information brokering is just gossip + money.
Come to think of it, these are pastries that get people to accidentally give away gossip. So they're basically non-addictive alcoholic drinks.
The pastries aren't evil. They're just jerks.
What's the matter? Did somebody steal your sweetroll?
EDIT: What's with so many people saying information brokering is evil? I guess those ladies from the Music Man who sang "Pick A Little" were actually Chaotic Evil rogues? Information brokering is just gossip + money.
The morality of information brokering is going to depend a lot on how it's used, but there's definitely the potential for evil. Stuff like selling a guard rotation schedule to an assassin, letting an evil warlord know about that one weak spot in the city's walls, etc.
What's the matter? Did somebody steal your sweetroll?
Rynjin did it.
Sweetroll good. Rynjin give pants.
I have to say I get a little tickle out of people saying it's okay because it's such a minor evil. Nevermind the fact it has been done enough times to build up a nest egg, pay for various plot hooks, build every single character in the party a magic item, and garner enough power to have the town guards to throw "Sir Reginald" out of town for daring to investigate. How minor is a minor evil multiplied infinite times?
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I have to say I get a little tickle out of people saying it's okay because it's such a minor evil. Nevermind the fact it has been done enough times to build up a nest egg, pay for various plot hooks, build every single character in the party a magic item, and garner enough power to have the town guards to throw "Sir Reginald" out of town for daring to investigate. How minor is a minor evil multiplied infinite times?
Still minor. Things don't suddenly become more evil if you benefit more from them.
If I tell a lie, that's bad. If I tell the same lie and it wins me a promotion, it's not suddenly MORE BAD. It's the same level of bad. But with a bigger payoff.
I have to say I get a little tickle out of people saying it's okay because it's such a minor evil. Nevermind the fact it has been done enough times to build up a nest egg, pay for various plot hooks, build every single character in the party a magic item, and garner enough power to have the town guards to throw "Sir Reginald" out of town for daring to investigate. How minor is a minor evil multiplied infinite times?Still minor. Things don't suddenly become more evil if you benefit more from them.
If I tell a lie, that's bad. If I tell the same lie and it wins me a promotion, it's not suddenly MORE BAD. It's the same level of bad. But with a bigger payoff.
I think you misunderstood. If you told one lie, that's understandable. If you lie to everyone, then you are a liar. Clearer?
Ah. I misread your post and kinda fixated on the "enough times to do X, Y, and Z" part.
True, but I don't think it make it more bad, still. It the same bad repeated a bunch of times.
It may overall stack up into making you a worse person, if it's your defining trait, but the action itself doesn't "stack evil" in my eyes more than it incrementally adds to your "Evil meter" if not offset by good usage/intentions/etc. to put it in simple terms.
I can think of one example that is super spoilery for a book so I'll put it in spoilers.
Super simplified version:
Gavin Guile lies to EVERYONE (besides his mother), for many years, hiding the fact that he is not, in fact, Gavin (the "good brother" in the civil war they fought against each other in), but Dazen the "evil twin".
He lies to everyone around him, his father, his former betrothed, the entire nation (his brother's, technically).
Nevertheless he accomplishes a hell of a lot of good in the almost 20 years he was impersonating his brother, a lot of good his brother was physically incapable of (and probably not inclined to pursue in the first place) completing in some cases, and isn't portrayed as a "bad guy" at all (though wracked with guilt over stealing his brother's life and imprisoning him for all these years, and he IS a bit of a sarcastic ass).
He took a minor evil and perpetrated it for a large span of time, constantly, but the length of time he kept it up doesn't make him more evil than when he did so the first time.
Ok for the OP, this is what I get from your posts.
Your character is Neutral.
What you are doing isnt lawful in anyway. You bribe the poor to gather information. You bribe the city officails or nobility to hopefully get a positive response. You bribe your party members so they have less of a problem with what your doing.
The party paladin is falling even if the player of said paladin doesnt know it.
This is just me though.
And that might just be the paladin player's reason to ask if the OP should not be evil. Because what he does makes the paladin fall.
I'm thinking "You're making me fall. I you were evil I could tell you to change that."
That does bring up one of the better ways to handle any issue of ethics when it comes to magic: If it would be wrong to do something via mundane methods (like selling brownies laced with drugs) then it would be wrong to do it using magic.Question.
If the bakery products were make using mundane drugs to do the same thing as the spells are doing, would it change how everyone feels about it?
That depends on the answer to one question:
Does such magic have side-effects? Real drugs are almost all in some way poisonous. So they would have some bodily harm issues in addition to the mind control/addiction issues.If the magic version lacks those problems I would rate them as very slightly less insidious.
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That does bring up one of the better ways to handle any issue of ethics when it comes to magic: If it would be wrong to do something via mundane methods (like selling brownies laced with drugs) then it would be wrong to do it using magic.Question.
If the bakery products were make using mundane drugs to do the same thing as the spells are doing, would it change how everyone feels about it?
That depends on the answer to one question:
Does such magic have side-effects? Real drugs are almost all in some way poisonous. So they would have some bodily harm issues in addition to the mind control/addiction issues.If the magic version lacks those problems I would rate them as very slightly less insidious.
Addiction has 2 aspects, physical and psychological.
The OP backed good don't seem to give a physical addiction, but they will probably generate a psychological addiction."When I eat the product of 'OP Bakery' I feel great. More friendly, charming, people love me and love to chat with me and find me interesting."
You can sell product with the unfulfilled promise of those benefits. The OP products make it true. He fell loved and he is more open and relaxed.
Not Evil with the capital E but certainly not good or lawful. Neutral, with a tendency toward evil or good that depend on how the information are used.
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Well I was trying to go through this and answer or respond to a lot of you. I don't think I can keep up by giving you all individual responses so I am just, for the most part, going to go with some general responses. First, to answer Jacob directly, yes sir I totally stole that from ERB. Ras Thavas was the Mastermind of Mars. A brilliant, amoral, Evil Genius. Don't read into that.
For more general responses, I am not trying to be defensive. I am trying to talk to or respond to a lot of you. I have enjoyed all of your responses and opinions. I am fairly new to posting here so I don't really know any of you but I will gladly talk to you and debate with you in a friendly manner. To Thair specifically, please don't feel you can't continue to discuss this. It's a game. It's meant to be fun and people should be able to talk about it without any hard feelings. You are never going to get everyone to have the same view point and what fun would it be if you did?
I am not really trying to say what I am doing isn't somewhat evil. It is. I just don't think it is grounds for an alignment shift. I think Nick is being a dick. He could role play his Paladins reaction to this but he is not. Anything else I have put up for discussion is just for fun. To be fair the GM is hand waving a lot of things for this plot to work but its about having fun and it gives the GM a unique way to push us info and develop plot hooks. If it really bothers Nick he should just say so or if he thinks it is evil and doesn't sit well with his character he should role play it.
I think a lot of us got the vibe that there was some sort of compulsion on the pastries. Is that it, or does Dark Lord Fluffy have the right of it? Either way, it seems to me that you probably do have the right alignment on your character sheet. Not Good ≠ Evil.
And let me get this straight: The paladin knows all about this in character, his player clearly thinks this is evil enough to warrant an alignment shift, yet he hasn't acted upon it in character, nor is he seemingly planning to do so? That sounds dubious for a paladin, as he should currently be doing his best to sway you from the path you're treading...
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This is kind of the vibe I am getting as well. Unfortunately, it is generally the paladin players that wind up being disruptive to games, and based on what we currently know, this might be another case of the same. It is the GM's decision whether or not the OP's actions constitute an alignment shift; a fellow player has no right to intercede unless there is obvious system abuse going on. If that's the case the perhaps they should find a group they don't disagree with to play with.
To be honest, in these boards it is generally the non-paladin players saying that the paladin players is disruptive, without contradictory as the paladin player or the GM never post into the thread.
Sometime the complains seem reasonable, sometime they don't.Reading the OP situation as depicted by him, the paladin character has some basis to object on the OP character actions. The paladin player has less reasons to complain to the GM, but all the reasons to ask to the GM if the OP character actions are evil or not as that directly affect his character.
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Hehehe. I dont think that's bad enough to make you evil (although it does lean in that direction), it might bring you towards true neutral (in my humble opinion).
-Addiction thing: evil, not super-evil, but evil nonetheless, more because of the fact people dont know than for the adictive effects.
-Information-gathering: that's legit. What do you think a bartender does? He uses alcohol, you use magic, no big difference.Still, nice to see someone not being a murderhobo. My current magus character has a buttload of ranks in craft (clockwork) so maybe I should start a side-business...
Yeah guess what is ACTUALLY addictive. Alcohol. I have to play a Paladin that Smites every bartender for being evil.
Why is Nick "being a dick" because he thinks your character is Lawful Evil? Is it a "no evil alignment" campaign? Will he get to smite you if your alignment is changed? How would being LE instead of LN hurt you?
(Not to say he is in the right, just curious as to the repercussions.)
It's not significantly evil. And by engaging in public charity works, you're painting yourself, overall, as a non-evil guy - Lawful Neutral should be just fine. Now, if you were enabling or aiding people to screw each other over in a significant way, then the spider's good works would start to diminish compared to the proportion of harm you'd inflict. Then, the slide to evil would really begin.
Remember, even a spiders web can fall apart and become useless if there are to many corpses on it. - quote from someone at some point in history I'm sure
I would caution people that using real-world arrestable offenses isn't necessarily a good metric for whether something should be evil in D&D.
In any event, doing something like this in real life would likely get you arrested, which means it's probably either chaotic or evil, or both. I could see a paladin taking issue with it no matter how you slice it.
Agreed. Take what adventurers do on a daily basis. Vigilante justice at best. (and almost always Punisher vigilante's not Spiderman vigilante's who leave people for the authorities to be arrested) Genocide at worst. But it's okay. Because my religion as a Paladin says I should wipe out all these intelligent beings that have a different life and belief system than I do.
A Paladin in our world would be called a religious fanatic and crazy mass murdering vigilante. (yes, you could play a paladin who only uses a +5 Merciful Longsword, but that isn't typical) But in Golarion he is a trustworthy asset to any society who believes in goodness and justice.
In our world, to be quite honest, we would call adventurers, including Paladins, terrorists.
As things stand right now, I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties Paladin who is trying to convince the GM that my alignment should shift from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Evil. Allow me to give a little background as to how this conflict has arisen.
You've already given the background. Let me zoom in on it.
I am having a bit of a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
a conflict with our parties PaladinEnhance:
our parties PaladinAlmost got it:
PaladinI guarantee you 100% NOBODY WOULD HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS if a Paladin wasn't in your party and using that as an excuse to be a dick to his party members.
The problem is that guy.
HAHAHAHAH!
My brain turned this into a scene from CSI: Golarion.
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For the first part I should have worded that better. I routinely place enchantments and whatnot on most of the baked goods earmarked for certain customers.
Ah, so the enchantments are mainly for specific people, and the non enchanted goods are for the general public? It's not "fire-and-forget", it's precision strikes? That makes a big difference, for the better, in my opinion. Just depends on who the specific targets are.
For the second question, I do sell a lot. Most of which is not enchanted. Third, I don't send anyone out to cause mayhem. I think an explanation of how it works is in order. Someone (like a guard) walks up. Conversation ensues and they get a free pastry. They eat it and unknowingly divulge a bit of gossip. Some minor non-related chit chat goes on and the effect ends as they continue on about their day.
So, it's like a diplomacy check, or a gather information check, only it's an automatic success? I think it's slightly worse than just a gossip check, because they don't get any resistance, but hardly as forceful as I was originally reading it. However, reading the scenario, it must be more than just casual gossip, right? I mean, you seem to be raking in the money, to make items, bribe officials and such like. Casual gossip surely isn't that profitable?
Next up, charity. Food and coin are dispensed with no return expected. However, free food and coin are more than enough to make those on the receiving end want to bring back stories and rumors. Everyone who works at the bakery is known to be a terrible gossip. You can drop by anytime with a good story and know you will given a handout. Also you can just drop by and if you are down on your luck you can share any of the day olds being given away.
Well, that's fair enough then. It's probably neutral with good leanings rather than good, because you're not doing it for the sake of doing it, but you're still doing it without any guarantee of actually getting anything.
What do I do with all that power? Maintain the status quo mostly. I am no hero in that regard but it is to my benefit that the city have low crime and run well. I make sure really evil people have as little influence as possible. Why? Because those are the people who will screw me over.
So, neutral leanings then. Well, actually, I suppose that depends on the status quo. If the status quo is corruption and abuse of power, then not so neutral. If the status quo is perfectly average, normal town, then pretty much neutral. Not for good, nor for ill, just the status quo, and what benefits you. Benefiting yourself is not innately evil, just if you're doing it at the expense of the weak, defenseless, innocent, good, etc. Which it doesn't seem you're doing, so you're probably clear of evil.
As for the spider comment: Don't read into things.
Ha! XD You asked for thoughts, you got 'em! :D And considering you needed to tell someone else not to read into things, I think I'm beginning to see a trend. ;)
The rogue sells information. For a profit. For the rest of your question, look up and read What do I do with all that power.
The Rogue sells the information. He gets the information from you. You, effectively, sell the information, with the Rogue acting as your proxy. If the Rogue sells info to the wrong people, it's your evil deed as much as his. Not saying you were trying to distance yourself from the information brokering here, just that it looked like it.
I'm still not 100% on the amount of vetting that goes into the information that you sell. Obviously, you have no control over who it gets sold to, that's the Rogue's bag, which isn't good. As I, and others, have mentioned, selling guard patrol routes or times or the dirty laundry of an overall good politician to evil assassins or corrupt guards or drug/arms runners or evil politicians, is an evil act. You're causing chaos, the loss of lives, the destruction of good causes, because you're indifferent as to who gets a hold on the info you sell. As I said above, it doesn't matter if the Rogue is doing the actual selling, if he's your direct employee or not, he gets his info from you, and then sells it. It can't happen without you. If you give him the kind of information that can ruin lives, knowing he might sell it to a bad person, but consoling yourself by saying he might also sell it to a good person, you're not neutral. You're lying-to-yourself evil.
And I know you're trying to maintain the status quo but : (A) The status quo may not be a good thing, and (B) Just because it doesn't upset the immediate status quo, doesn't mean you're not causing harm/evil. If a guard dies because the information your Rogue sold got into the wrong hands, the status quo may be the same, minus one guard, but you've still committed an evil act. I'm not saying one guard dead causes an alignment shift, I'm just saying that's my take on things.
As for the Paladin, he does share in the money. Sort of. I use it to fund items I craft for him. I use it to fund expenses for the party when we are adventuring (which is most of the time). I am kind of that rich friend that always picks up the tab.
Sooo... you're a rich guy, who picks up the bill for the "family", takes care of the expenses, greases the political wheels when needs be, gathers information and connections from every nook and cranny of town, has a perfectly legitimate business that is actually a front for a not-so-legitimate business and...
Another would be power broker, this one absolutely evil, decided to get rid of me. As I mentioned I am very careful that my rogue intermediary does not know who I am. The one who was working for me at the time met a bad end because he couldn't give up my identity even if he wanted to. This lead to a short information war until I finally figured out who was trying to take me out. He learned the hard way that a wand of lightning bolts is a very unpleasant thing when you are not prepared for it.
... you're the kind of guy you really don't want to be on the wrong side of. You are such a mob boss! XD
I will point out that at no time have I deprived anyone of their freedom (or free will as I did specifically say I didn't want them to be an addiction) nor have I damaged their dignity in any way. Also it says life not well being. A minor distinction but in any case I have not caused any deaths or even bodily harm.I dunno. A lot of people think of their free will as an integral part of their digity, and your charms are (relatively benignly, I'll admit) affecting that.
You don't have to kill to be evil. In a related note, you can evil be evil without evil motives. Look at the Operative in Serenity. Road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Thrair is absolutely right here. No matter how "benign" your charms may be, they still do limit the free will of others.
An Example : Town has bakery A & B. I go to town. On day one, I try bakery A. They make really, really tasty treats. On day two, I try bakery B. Yes, bakery A was awesome, but B may be even better. I do not know until I try.
In your scenario, on day two, I return to town. Faced with A & B, I will choose A. The baked goods had an enchantment to make them my first preference. Bakery B loses business. When baker B is on the streets begging because A put him out of business, shall A take him in? How about his family? Will people forever be deprived the tastiness of baker B's goods? They were actually even better than A's, but no one got to know, because they were enchanted to make A their first preference.
We must look at these things in many lights. Has this happened? Probably not, it's an extreme example. But considering how long your business is going, it's not impossible. Have you asked about the effect you have on your competition? Does your character care about their well being or what becomes of them?
Now, a good question, that I've seem put forward a few times, but I've yet to see a response to : What would YOU think if this happened to YOUR character? Someone kicks down the door of your private residence and goes "I'm putting you out of the information brokering business!" You ask the GM, how did he find me? Well, you ate this baked good at some undefined point and unknowingly told someone that you're the one behind the Rogue. I somehow don't think you'd be too happy, or consider it very Neutral. I may be wrong though.
I am not really trying to say what I am doing isn't somewhat evil. It is. I just don't think it is grounds for an alignment shift. I think Nick is being a dick. He could role play his Paladins reaction to this but he is not. Anything else I have put up for discussion is just for fun. To be fair the GM is hand waving a lot of things for this plot to work but its about having fun and it gives the GM a unique way to push us info and develop plot hooks. If it really bothers Nick he should just say so or if he thinks it is evil and doesn't sit well with his character he should role play it.
I agree that Nick isn't necessarily doing things right. If he thinks your character is doing something wrong, and his character knows about it, his character should be doing something about it, not the player. But try and look at it from the Nick's point of view. His character wants to uphold good. He sees you doing something he thinks is evil. He uses his at will Detect Evil and you don't show up. He's confused. What's good and what's evil? And this is a meta game concept. So Nick needs to clarify that with the GM. Maybe that's coming off as his trying to get your alignment changed. But, really, he's just trying to know what's good and what's evil, so he can play his Paladin well. Nick's not here, man, so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. :D
Thank you for your thoughts.
You're quite welcome. :) I shall continue to share them as they come. It is very refreshing to actually get a response to one of my walls of text. xD