I get more pleading then mockery.
Ha! You b+$%!, you couldn't judge me!
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I had no problem with Wrath of the Righteous.
Pretty much all of the deities act that harshly if mocked. Even Shelyn would punish a character harshly for being a jerk who mocks a God.
Good or evil, Gods are Gods.
Mouth off to their face and pay the price.
Is my Paladin allowed to inflict lethal damage on people who mock him?
I get more pleading then mockery.
So what about the whole Prophecy thing? Is it, Jack wants to have stew but you see he instead gets run over by a cow, so that is how it will be? No 'Jack wasn't hungry so he wasn't run over by a cow.'?
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Is my Paladin allowed to inflict lethal damage on people who mock him?I had no problem with Wrath of the Righteous.
Pretty much all of the deities act that harshly if mocked. Even Shelyn would punish a character harshly for being a jerk who mocks a God.
Good or evil, Gods are Gods.
Mouth off to their face and pay the price.
Is your Paladin a god?
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Okaaay... we're not going to have another 50 angry posts are we. Cause I forgot what my shtick is here...
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Cue the PC starting up the Ur-Priest class and focusing on destroying Iomodae's power base.
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Being a god does not put you above Good and Evil in Pathfinder.
Asmodeus believes that mortals exist only to serve the gods and should suffer for daring to have free will. Why isn't he Lawful Good?
Probably best to just lock the thread, it is just trolling now.
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Seeing many people who never play pickup groups. God complex DMs are a laugh there.
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I just wanted to chime in, and say that I thought this thread was hilarious overall. The sheer amount of discussion over such an inconsequential amount of damage, regardless of all the mitigating factors and the idea that it only happens to people who don't play along anyway, is a sight to behold.
Suppose people will find anything to get mad about.
You haven't been to the rules forum yet have you. :-)
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I ran this earlier this week, I felt that I as the GM did not effectively communicate the gravity of the encounter, there was out-of-character chat from my players and I don't think they really bought in to the gravity of meeting her.
That said, I raised the light level/aura for the flippant character, and hoped the other two would focus more.
They didn't.
Since then I've been beating myself up mentally for not making the first appearence of a Goddess more... memorable.
http://harbingergames.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/good-isnt-stupid-or-weak-or-ni ce.html
I thought this was very relevant to the game and her outlook, and my players were quite happy with the encounter.
I was disappointed but not because of the book.
I'd like to thank Wolfgang, James and the team for the well written flavour text and as with everything in an AP: if you don't think you will get the desired response/reactions from your players with something the AP asks, change it.
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Two points in favor of Iomedae as written.
Philosophical Comment: Sometime after some of the dust has settled, one True Neutral is not surprised at Iomedae's behavior. After all, good is only a stick for beating others. I'm good, you're not. Likewise, lawful means follow my rules or else I will inflict pain. Anyone who pretends to act without self interest is simply dishonest. Evil isn't all bad. Good is disguised self aggrandizement. To expect good behavior out of a good deity is unreasonable. To expect constant bad behavior out of an evil deity is ridiculous.
Practical Comment: These are adventurers with considerable combat related training. Eh? It is a common thing in martial training to receive some pain. Iomedae is a very martial god in a hurry. As seen in the forums many PCs are pompous inflated pricks who need deflating. So what do you expect? What you got. Iomedae is just treating them like she would any martial student who got uppity in sparring.
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I just wanted to chime in, and say that I thought this thread was hilarious overall. The sheer amount of discussion over such an inconsequential amount of damage, regardless of all the mitigating factors and the idea that it only happens to people who don't play along anyway, is a sight to behold.
Suppose people will find anything to get mad about.
Because what's inconsequential to high level mythic characters is still not inconsequential *objectively*--the one that is most likely to be failed is the second one, just by virtue of the fact that *already having made up your mind on it* is a failure, and that one nets the party as much damage as a 10th level wizard's Fireball, or being stabbed by a short sword 10 times. Moreover, the ways it gets applied are inconsistent at best and certainly possible, as written, to wander into accidentally, and most of all, that there is simply *no rational in-universe explanation* for why a trial is *necessary* for the heroes, let alone why it should take the form of inane questioning with disproportionate penalties for being 'incorrect.'
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Why do so many people have the attitude of "whoever's in charge doesn't have to follow the rules and can do anything they want"?
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This reminds me of the time, when my 13ys old me played AD&D, 2nd Ed, for the very first time. During one of our misadventures I overenthusiastically messed up and destroyed some cool magic item .. the thief of the group went "Yikes ... Idiot!" and hit me once with his dagger. The fighter chimed in "yeah, that was really dumb." and hit me with his longsword and so did the ranger and even the mage with his walking stick. When I objected, that this was leathal force, they laughed and said "don't make us laugh, you are a lvl 4 cleric and have d8 hit die."
After that I healed myself back up and had learned to be not too overexcited, but careful and respectful, when dealing with unknown magic.
Of course, the whole situation was super meta, but I took the in-game equivalent of a disciplinary beating and took a lesson out of it, that still holds true to this very day. I bet that Iomedae wouldn't use the equivalent of 20 shortswort strokes to discipline a farmer who somehow had the gall to mock her in the face, but it seems like the appropriate amount of force to wack some sense into a highlevel, mythic PC. Just deal with it, take your lesson and move on.
Setting aside that I don't think 'disciplinary beatings' are either Good-aligned or even productive: what's the lesson? The PCs are getting 'sense whacked into them' for not knowing a detail of theological history that is *completely irrelevant* to the matter at hand, or for having a firmly set opinion on redemption (but they'd better not be *too uncertain about it, either!) And all to judge their worthiness for a task they're going to be sent on one way or another and whether they get useful tools for that task.
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Why do so many people have the attitude of "whoever's in charge doesn't have to follow the rules and can do anything they want"?
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TL;DR: Every writer involved with this encounter rolled a natural 1. Hopefully Owlcat's staff can replace this encounter with something better in the CRPG.
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I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.
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I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.
I do agree with you that if you insult a god their should be consequences but consequences needs to work both ways if you pick the touched by divinity feat and you did not pick Iomedae as your mother if she punish you for not answering the right way this would be a good way of making another god mad at Iomedae and might step in to stop it
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I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.
Not having the right answers to inane questions is not an insult, and even if it were, assault is not by any reasonable standard a proportionate consequence to insult.
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I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.Not having the right answers to inane questions is not an insult, and even if it were, assault is not by any reasonable standard a proportionate consequence to insult.
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I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.I do agree with you that if you insult a god their should be consequences but consequences needs to work both ways if you pick the touched by divinity feat and you did not pick Iomedae as your mother if she punish you for not answering the right way this would be a good way of making another god mad at Iomedae and might step in to stop it
now THAT would be cool to role-play out.
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wasting a god's time is not wise.I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.Not having the right answers to inane questions is not an insult, and even if it were, assault is not by any reasonable standard a proportionate consequence to insult.
But she's (supposed to be) Lawful Good. She was a mortal Paladin. The Goddess of the iconic Paladin, to boot. Would you let a PC's Paladin inflict lethal damage on innocents for not answering his questions, or not answering them correctly, without falling?
The rules of what is Good and what is Evil are no different for the gods. Their actions and the intent behind them still determine their alignment.
wasting a god's time is not wise.I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.Not having the right answers to inane questions is not an insult, and even if it were, assault is not by any reasonable standard a proportionate consequence to insult.But she's (supposed to be) Lawful Good. She was a mortal Paladin. The Goddess of the iconic Paladin, to boot. Would you let a PC's Paladin inflict lethal damage on innocents for not answering his questions, or not answering them correctly, without falling?
The rules of what is Good and what is Evil are no different for the gods. Their actions and the intent behind them still determine their alignment.
This isn't a mortal. Its a god. The rules are different here.
Must we rehash word for word the exact arguments already made in this very thread half a decade ago?
Obviously.
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This isn't a mortal. Its a god. The rules are different here.wasting a god's time is not wise.I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.Not having the right answers to inane questions is not an insult, and even if it were, assault is not by any reasonable standard a proportionate consequence to insult.But she's (supposed to be) Lawful Good. She was a mortal Paladin. The Goddess of the iconic Paladin, to boot. Would you let a PC's Paladin inflict lethal damage on innocents for not answering his questions, or not answering them correctly, without falling?
The rules of what is Good and what is Evil are no different for the gods. Their actions and the intent behind them still determine their alignment.
OK, so power means you get to ignore morality? You'd let the Paladin do it if they were 20th level questioning someone first level? Or if they had Mythic Ranks? Maybe if they had the Mythic Power that allows them to grant spells like a God?
OK, so power means you get to ignore morality? You'd let the Paladin do it if they were 20th level questioning someone first level? Or if they had Mythic Ranks? Maybe if they had the Mythic Power that allows them to grant spells like a God?This isn't a mortal. Its a god. The rules are different here.wasting a god's time is not wise.I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.Not having the right answers to inane questions is not an insult, and even if it were, assault is not by any reasonable standard a proportionate consequence to insult.But she's (supposed to be) Lawful Good. She was a mortal Paladin. The Goddess of the iconic Paladin, to boot. Would you let a PC's Paladin inflict lethal damage on innocents for not answering his questions, or not answering them correctly, without falling?
The rules of what is Good and what is Evil are no different for the gods. Their actions and the intent behind them still determine their alignment.
power does not mean you get to ignore morality, which is why people who mock gods to their faces get punished severely for it.
And no, they would not get to do it. They are not a god.
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...I really have to think you are being deliberately disingenuous at this point if you can't see the inherent contradiction in 'power doesn't let you ignore morality' and 'It's OK for a God to do something immoral to you for a minor offense, because they're a God, and you're not.'
1) Mocking someone is not necessarily immoral, especially when that person is *more* powerful, rather than less powerful.
2) Doing physical violence to someone because of an insult *is* usually immoral, especially if the power balance is in your favor, because it is a wildly disproportionate response.
3) Doing physical violence to someone because they didn't answer an inane question in exactly the obscure way you wanted to, which is *actually* what people are complaining about, is *definitely* immoral, because it is entirely unnecessary and pointless harm.
...I really have to think you are being deliberately disingenuous at this point if you can't see the inherent contradiction in 'power doesn't let you ignore morality' and 'It's OK for a God to do something immoral to you for a minor offense, because they're a God, and you're not.'
1) Mocking someone is not necessarily immoral, especially when that person is *more* powerful, rather than less powerful.
2) Doing physical violence to someone because of an insult *is* usually immoral, especially if the power balance is in your favor, because it is a wildly disproportionate response.
3) Doing physical violence to someone because they didn't answer an inane question in exactly the obscure way you wanted to, which is *actually* what people are complaining about, is *definitely* immoral, because it is entirely unnecessary and pointless harm.
If you are enforcing mortal constraints on an immortal being, things are not going to end up going the way you think. But hey, if you want to play a game where the players get no repercussions for telling gods to pull their finger, go for it.
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The dead horses will be beaten until morale improves.
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If you are enforcing mortal constraints on an immortal being, things are not going to end up going the way you think. But hey, if you want to play a game where the players get no repercussions for telling gods to pull their finger, go for it....I really have to think you are being deliberately disingenuous at this point if you can't see the inherent contradiction in 'power doesn't let you ignore morality' and 'It's OK for a God to do something immoral to you for a minor offense, because they're a God, and you're not.'
1) Mocking someone is not necessarily immoral, especially when that person is *more* powerful, rather than less powerful.
2) Doing physical violence to someone because of an insult *is* usually immoral, especially if the power balance is in your favor, because it is a wildly disproportionate response.
3) Doing physical violence to someone because they didn't answer an inane question in exactly the obscure way you wanted to, which is *actually* what people are complaining about, is *definitely* immoral, because it is entirely unnecessary and pointless harm.
And you go right on ahead playing in a nightmare world where the personification of justice and honor acts like a petulant, Chaotic Evil brat.
And you go right on ahead playing in a nightmare world where the personification of justice and honor acts like a petulant, Chaotic Evil brat.If you are enforcing mortal constraints on an immortal being, things are not going to end up going the way you think. But hey, if you want to play a game where the players get no repercussions for telling gods to pull their finger, go for it....I really have to think you are being deliberately disingenuous at this point if you can't see the inherent contradiction in 'power doesn't let you ignore morality' and 'It's OK for a God to do something immoral to you for a minor offense, because they're a God, and you're not.'
1) Mocking someone is not necessarily immoral, especially when that person is *more* powerful, rather than less powerful.
2) Doing physical violence to someone because of an insult *is* usually immoral, especially if the power balance is in your favor, because it is a wildly disproportionate response.
3) Doing physical violence to someone because they didn't answer an inane question in exactly the obscure way you wanted to, which is *actually* what people are complaining about, is *definitely* immoral, because it is entirely unnecessary and pointless harm.
hey, at least I know of a setting where I can relieve myself on a God's shoe for yuks and have nothing happen.
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hey, at least I know of a setting where I can relieve myself on a God's shoe for yuks and have nothing happen.And you go right on ahead playing in a nightmare world where the personification of justice and honor acts like a petulant, Chaotic Evil brat.If you are enforcing mortal constraints on an immortal being, things are not going to end up going the way you think. But hey, if you want to play a game where the players get no repercussions for telling gods to pull their finger, go for it....I really have to think you are being deliberately disingenuous at this point if you can't see the inherent contradiction in 'power doesn't let you ignore morality' and 'It's OK for a God to do something immoral to you for a minor offense, because they're a God, and you're not.'
1) Mocking someone is not necessarily immoral, especially when that person is *more* powerful, rather than less powerful.
2) Doing physical violence to someone because of an insult *is* usually immoral, especially if the power balance is in your favor, because it is a wildly disproportionate response.
3) Doing physical violence to someone because they didn't answer an inane question in exactly the obscure way you wanted to, which is *actually* what people are complaining about, is *definitely* immoral, because it is entirely unnecessary and pointless harm.
You know that was never the action that has been under discussion. You also know that even if it were, if someone did that to you, it wouldn't justify stabbing them a dozen times.
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Part of me does kind of wonder if people are playing with groups that will relieve themself on a gods shoes for the Yuks how they have managed to have there group get to part 5 for the party members to do that to begin with (Since I assume most parties wont suddenly have there players go from sensible to jerk just because the NPC is a god.)
You know that was never the action that has been under discussion. You also know that even if it were, if someone did that to you, it wouldn't justify stabbing them a dozen times.hey, at least I know of a setting where I can relieve myself on a God's shoe for yuks and have nothing happen.And you go right on ahead playing in a nightmare world where the personification of justice and honor acts like a petulant, Chaotic Evil brat.If you are enforcing mortal constraints on an immortal being, things are not going to end up going the way you think. But hey, if you want to play a game where the players get no repercussions for telling gods to pull their finger, go for it....I really have to think you are being deliberately disingenuous at this point if you can't see the inherent contradiction in 'power doesn't let you ignore morality' and 'It's OK for a God to do something immoral to you for a minor offense, because they're a God, and you're not.'
1) Mocking someone is not necessarily immoral, especially when that person is *more* powerful, rather than less powerful.
2) Doing physical violence to someone because of an insult *is* usually immoral, especially if the power balance is in your favor, because it is a wildly disproportionate response.
3) Doing physical violence to someone because they didn't answer an inane question in exactly the obscure way you wanted to, which is *actually* what people are complaining about, is *definitely* immoral, because it is entirely unnecessary and pointless harm.
I am mortal, not divine.
So no, not a dozen.
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now THAT would be cool to role-play out.I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.I do agree with you that if you insult a god their should be consequences but consequences needs to work both ways if you pick the touched by divinity feat and you did not pick Iomedae as your mother if she punish you for not answering the right way this would be a good way of making another god mad at Iomedae and might step in to stop it
Agreed most people don't like the idea of their child being punished by someone else so lets say your dad is Nethys their is no telling what he would do too Iomedae do to the fact that Nethys is a mad god stuff like this is what makes games more fun in my opinion :)
Agreed most people don't like the idea of their child being punished by someone else so lets say your dad is Nethys their is no telling what he would do too Iomedae do to the fact that Nethys is a mad god stuff like this is what makes games more fun in my opinion :)now THAT would be cool to role-play out.I hope it is still in there. It continues to weird me out how good must equal nice and actively insulting a god means zero consequences whatsoever.I do agree with you that if you insult a god their should be consequences but consequences needs to work both ways if you pick the touched by divinity feat and you did not pick Iomedae as your mother if she punish you for not answering the right way this would be a good way of making another god mad at Iomedae and might step in to stop it
now this is something I can get behind.
Or even another God having problems with how Iomedae handled it, like Cayden.
This should be an opportunity for things to get interesting/dicey.
Part of me does kind of wonder if people are playing with groups that will relieve themself on a gods shoes for the Yuks how they have managed to have there group get to part 5 for the party members to do that to begin with (Since I assume most parties wont suddenly have there players go from sensible to jerk just because the NPC is a god.)
Right? If groups are out here pissing off Iomedae how did they manage to survive their little chat with Nocticula last book?