Book 5: Discussion on Iomedae [SPOILERS AHOY!]


Wrath of the Righteous

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I had no problem with Wrath of the Righteous.

Pretty much all of the deities act that harshly if mocked. Even Shelyn would punish a character harshly for being a jerk who mocks a God.

Good or evil, Gods are Gods.

Mouth off to their face and pay the price.


I get more pleading then mockery.


Ha! You b~!&$, you couldn't judge me!


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HWalsh wrote:

I had no problem with Wrath of the Righteous.

Pretty much all of the deities act that harshly if mocked. Even Shelyn would punish a character harshly for being a jerk who mocks a God.

Good or evil, Gods are Gods.

Mouth off to their face and pay the price.

Is my Paladin allowed to inflict lethal damage on people who mock him?


Pharasma, Lady of Graves wrote:
I get more pleading then mockery.

So what about the whole Prophecy thing? Is it, Jack wants to have stew but you see he instead gets run over by a cow, so that is how it will be? No 'Jack wasn't hungry so he wasn't run over by a cow.'?


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DominusMegadeus wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

I had no problem with Wrath of the Righteous.

Pretty much all of the deities act that harshly if mocked. Even Shelyn would punish a character harshly for being a jerk who mocks a God.

Good or evil, Gods are Gods.

Mouth off to their face and pay the price.

Is my Paladin allowed to inflict lethal damage on people who mock him?

Is your Paladin a god?


DominusMegadeus wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

I had no problem with Wrath of the Righteous.

Pretty much all of the deities act that harshly if mocked. Even Shelyn would punish a character harshly for being a jerk who mocks a God.

Good or evil, Gods are Gods.

Mouth off to their face and pay the price.

Is my Paladin allowed to inflict lethal damage on people who mock him?

When your Paladin becomes a God, yes. Also if that lethal damage is in no way legitimately life threatening.

You seem to forget that you NEVER judge divinity by the standards of human understanding.

You stand before a being of unfathomable power and yet you are willing to openly mock it. There needs to be punishment for such hubris, you need to be laid low for such a thing.

Also...

Without con bonuses or anything a level 15 has:

20-90 (avg. 55) for a D6
22-120 (avg. 71) for a D8
24-140 (avg. 87) for a D10
26-180 (avg. 103) for a D12

Her horn blasts aren't killing anyone.


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Heck, just be lucky she doesn't permanently strip you of your class skills, drop you back to level 1, then dump you in a village somewhere without your equipment with a note explaining that you were too stupid to live so start over.


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Okaaay... we're not going to have another 50 angry posts are we. Cause I forgot what my shtick is here...


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Cue the PC starting up the Ur-Priest class and focusing on destroying Iomodae's power base.


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Being a god does not put you above Good and Evil in Pathfinder.

Asmodeus believes that mortals exist only to serve the gods and should suffer for daring to have free will. Why isn't he Lawful Good?


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DominusMegadeus wrote:

Being a god does not put you above Good and Evil in Pathfinder.

Asmodeus believes that mortals exist only to serve the gods and should suffer for daring to have free will. Why isn't he Lawful Good?

It's not about being above Good and Evil. It's about respecting the natural order. That is VERY Lawful.

Asmodeus wants to punish humans for free will. Iomedae punished a Mortal who openly mocked her in her own presence.

I don't think you understand. When you openly mock someone in the kind of medevil society that exists in Pathfinder it isn't simply rude and disrespectful, as it is on moden day Earth, it is an open challenge of the person's position and authority.

To give you some perspective:

If a lower ranking noble, in Earth's real history, openly mocked a king they could be put to death. In Japanese history they would be expected to commit suicide to atone. A peasant (what the PCs are at best in this scenario) would not only be killed, but their family enslaved as well, for such a sleight.

So compare that to Iomedae deafening them until they are ready to apologize. That is pretty darn Merciful.

Pathfinder doesn't use Western Earth 2016 morality. It is a medevil society. You can also get out of criminal charges by challenging to trial by combat.

Now, some people are up in arms over the slap on the wrist sonic attack for getting a question wrong.

Please. Even as close to our real history as the 1940's a wrong answer to a military leader could result in a soldier being slugged and nobody, not even the person being slugged, would think much of it.

Nobody died, she lets you heal between questions, and you shouldn't even be failing them anyway if you are a half decent hero.


Probably best to just lock the thread, it is just trolling now.


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Seeing many people who never play pickup groups. God complex DMs are a laugh there.

Silver Crusade

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I just wanted to chime in, and say that I thought this thread was hilarious overall. The sheer amount of discussion over such an inconsequential amount of damage, regardless of all the mitigating factors and the idea that it only happens to people who don't play along anyway, is a sight to behold.

Suppose people will find anything to get mad about.


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You haven't been to the rules forum yet have you. :-)

Silver Crusade

I ran this earlier this week, I felt that I as the GM did not effectively communicate the gravity of the encounter, there was out-of-character chat from my players and I don't think they really bought in to the gravity of meeting her.

That said, I raised the light level/aura for the flippant character, and hoped the other two would focus more.

They didn't.

Since then I've been beating myself up mentally for not making the first appearence of a Goddess more... memorable.

http://harbingergames.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/good-isnt-stupid-or-weak-or-ni ce.html

I thought this was very relevant to the game and her outlook, and my players were quite happy with the encounter.

I was disappointed but not because of the book.

I'd like to thank Wolfgang, James and the team for the well written flavour text and as with everything in an AP: if you don't think you will get the desired response/reactions from your players with something the AP asks, change it.

More like Guidelines


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Two points in favor of Iomedae as written.

Philosophical Comment: Sometime after some of the dust has settled, one True Neutral is not surprised at Iomedae's behavior. After all, good is only a stick for beating others. I'm good, you're not. Likewise, lawful means follow my rules or else I will inflict pain. Anyone who pretends to act without self interest is simply dishonest. Evil isn't all bad. Good is disguised self aggrandizement. To expect good behavior out of a good deity is unreasonable. To expect constant bad behavior out of an evil deity is ridiculous.

Practical Comment: These are adventurers with considerable combat related training. Eh? It is a common thing in martial training to receive some pain. Iomedae is a very martial god in a hurry. As seen in the forums many PCs are pompous inflated pricks who need deflating. So what do you expect? What you got. Iomedae is just treating them like she would any martial student who got uppity in sparring.

Community & Digital Content Director

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Removed a post and response to it. Crude jokes/references to anecdotal crude jokes within your group don't really have a place in this thread.


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Daniel Yeatman wrote:

I just wanted to chime in, and say that I thought this thread was hilarious overall. The sheer amount of discussion over such an inconsequential amount of damage, regardless of all the mitigating factors and the idea that it only happens to people who don't play along anyway, is a sight to behold.

Suppose people will find anything to get mad about.

Because what's inconsequential to high level mythic characters is still not inconsequential *objectively*--the one that is most likely to be failed is the second one, just by virtue of the fact that *already having made up your mind on it* is a failure, and that one nets the party as much damage as a 10th level wizard's Fireball, or being stabbed by a short sword 10 times. Moreover, the ways it gets applied are inconsistent at best and certainly possible, as written, to wander into accidentally, and most of all, that there is simply *no rational in-universe explanation* for why a trial is *necessary* for the heroes, let alone why it should take the form of inane questioning with disproportionate penalties for being 'incorrect.'


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Why do so many people have the attitude of "whoever's in charge doesn't have to follow the rules and can do anything they want"?


This reminds me of the time, when my 13ys old me played AD&D, 2nd Ed, for the very first time. During one of our misadventures I overenthusiastically messed up and destroyed some cool magic item .. the thief of the group went "Yikes ... Idiot!" and hit me once with his dagger. The fighter chimed in "yeah, that was really dumb." and hit me with his longsword and so did the ranger and even the mage with his walking stick. When I objected, that this was leathal force, they laughed and said "don't make us laugh, you are a lvl 4 cleric and have d8 hit die."

After that I healed myself back up and had learned to be not too overexcited, but careful and respectful, when dealing with unknown magic.

Of course, the whole situation was super meta, but I took the in-game equivalent of a disciplinary beating and took a lesson out of it, that still holds true to this very day. I bet that Iomedae wouldn't use the equivalent of 20 shortswort strokes to discipline a farmer who somehow had the gall to mock her in the face, but it seems like the appropriate amount of force to wack some sense into a highlevel, mythic PC. Just deal with it, take your lesson and move on.


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Akumamajin wrote:

This reminds me of the time, when my 13ys old me played AD&D, 2nd Ed, for the very first time. During one of our misadventures I overenthusiastically messed up and destroyed some cool magic item .. the thief of the group went "Yikes ... Idiot!" and hit me once with his dagger. The fighter chimed in "yeah, that was really dumb." and hit me with his longsword and so did the ranger and even the mage with his walking stick. When I objected, that this was leathal force, they laughed and said "don't make us laugh, you are a lvl 4 cleric and have d8 hit die."

After that I healed myself back up and had learned to be not too overexcited, but careful and respectful, when dealing with unknown magic.

Of course, the whole situation was super meta, but I took the in-game equivalent of a disciplinary beating and took a lesson out of it, that still holds true to this very day. I bet that Iomedae wouldn't use the equivalent of 20 shortswort strokes to discipline a farmer who somehow had the gall to mock her in the face, but it seems like the appropriate amount of force to wack some sense into a highlevel, mythic PC. Just deal with it, take your lesson and move on.

Setting aside that I don't think 'disciplinary beatings' are either Good-aligned or even productive: what's the lesson? The PCs are getting 'sense whacked into them' for not knowing a detail of theological history that is *completely irrelevant* to the matter at hand, or for having a firmly set opinion on redemption (but they'd better not be *too uncertain about it, either!) And all to judge their worthiness for a task they're going to be sent on one way or another and whether they get useful tools for that task.


Yqatuba wrote:
Why do so many people have the attitude of "whoever's in charge doesn't have to follow the rules and can do anything they want"?

I don't know.

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