Book 5: Discussion on Iomedae [SPOILERS AHOY!]


Wrath of the Righteous

451 to 500 of 526 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Shadow Lodge

Dracovar wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Odraude wrote:
To be fair, she is the goddess of paladins. I shouldn't be surprised that the Queen of Paladins is everything that is Lawful Stupid.
I'm just going to link the rant I already did on this wretched, flimsy, and pointless excuse for an excuse.

To be fair, you forgot that I later mentioned my glaring omission of /sarcasm ON and /sarcasm OFF...

Although I do feel a perverse amount of pride in the table flip mode comment in your rant. That was gold.

But, I'm still totally in agreement with you and chuckg (whose newsletter I believe I need to subscribe to...) /GRIN.

I did note on it a few posts down >_>


Chuckg wrote:
"... you're kidding. You're kidding, right?"

Funniest post in the whole thread; you get 1 Brony Point! :)


I approach this having been supremely jaded against all divinity by observation of (and experience with) the religions of our world up to the present day, and having read the part of the introduction to AD&D's Dieties & Demigods that EXPLICTLY allows deities to behave several steps more evil (and likely a step more chaotic) than the alignments they represent. After all, thinking of our world, not only were the least evil of Greek and Roman deities truly evil (and often capriciously so), but the same is true of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, according to the Bible -- this is most easily visible in the Old Testament, but the New Testament does not repudiate this (and Revelations is only the most prominent and lengthly embrace of the Old Testament fire and brimstone), and the lore since the time of the New Testament has been pretty brutal as well, even up to the present day. I am completely distrusting of the idea of any deity being truly good.

I know that the Golarion mythos was supposed to offer something better than this. But now the mistake has been made, and it's too late not to pay for it.

Therefore, I find the temptation of true macabre delight in Anorak's idea several pages back:

Anorak wrote:


{. . .}
After reading the entry for Venerable Galevius, I came up with this crazy idea. I'm thinking in my campaign I will make Iomedae a bearer of a terrible secret, one that she will kill anyone if they ever get hint of the truth: It was she who killed Aroden or at least the catalyst. This secret is the reason for her actions and personality.

This would truly delight Catbert. But one problem: Given that Iomedae is portrayed differently before Book 5, wouldn't this terrible secret have already done something before then? Maybe the things described below actually were even more insidious than described, and she has only in Book 5 found a critical piece of information that allowed her to understand the scheme, or maybe somebody ELSE got wind of this and is holding it over her -- possibly even a combination of both possibilities, and either or both possibly associated with the abduction of her herald.

Quote:


Back during the days of the Shining Crusade when she was the leader of the Knights of Ozem, she was approached by agents of the Ebony Triad, a sinister organization made up of the agents of Asmodeus, Charon and Deskari, whose sole goal was to bring about the apocalypse and right the error that began with Ihys. The only problem in the Ebony Triads plan was that Aroden stood in the way of their victory. If they were to succeed, Aroden would need to die.

Minor quibble: Wouldn't this be more the style of one of the other Horsemen of the Apocalypse?

Apollyon: Pestilence portfolio fits with insect swarms spreading plagues. Check
Charon: Death by old age portfolio -- evil enough, but not the right style to go along with a Worldwound-style invasion.
Szuriel: War portfolio fits with the Worldwound wars. Check.
Trelmarixian: Famine portfolio also fits with insect swarms devouring everything. Check.

As to the others presented as potential members of the Ebony Triad, Deskari certainly has the motive, and Asmodeus would be in on it if he thought he could subvert the Apocalypse to let him enslave the entire world rather than completely destroying it leaving him nothing to rule (this would be the major risk for him if things got out of hand from his point of view). I sense a future falling mutual betrayal in the future of this Ebony Triad . . . .

Quote:


Given the circumstances of Aroden's ascension, he was even more vulnerable than other gods were and could be killed under the right circumstances. Taking cues from Lamashtu's ascendance, the Triad approached Iomedae with an offer. In exchange for her aid, they would assist her in taking down the Whispering Tyrant, something that Aroden had so far no interest in doing. Desperate to save her men’s lives, she accepted the offer. All she would need to do was summon his Herald. They would do the rest. The rest is history. Flash forward to Iomedae's own ascension and centuries of service until finally the appointed time arrived: Aroden's Prophesied return to Golarion.

Would probably work better if it were not a direct approach, or at least not a direct approach by the Ebony Triad members other than Asmodeus, who would have the Lawful affiliation on his side and be able to use Cheliax' increasingly infernal culture (even before House Thrune made its official power grab) as a wedge into Iomedae's personality, and who would have the better experience with tricking powerful mortals into signing a contract that would lead to the results they desired; Deskari and whiechever of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse was in on this would do the behind-the-scenes work of the plot (not that Asmodeus would be any slacker in that department, either).

Quote:


As Aroden prepared his arrival, he received a plea of help from Iomedae. Somehow, she had become trapped in Abaddon. Not wanting to lose his herald again, he materialized at her side, only to fall prey to the combined attacks of Asmodeus, Deskari and Charon. However, Iomedae could not standby, her heart breaking over her betrayal.

The evil beauty of this is that if the plan was insidious enough, she didn't even have to realize that she was betraying him until this attack.

Quote:


Summoning her courage, she tried to save Aroden but the damage was done. He was dying but like with Curchanus before him, he was able to bestow his divinity upon Iomedae before he died. Enraged, the triad turned on Iomedae but she fled before they could kill her as well.

In fury, Deskari launched his attack on Golarion, as both Charon and Asmodeus shared a smile, stepping back into the darkness...

Okay, now I have to get off my rear and come up with the Qlippoth-Spawn Tiefling character that I have been toying with to try to get into a Wrath of the Righteous campaign . . . .

And now for a more recent quote that gives Catbertian delight:

Chuckg wrote:


In an earlier post I showed that Captain America would probably score a zero out of three on this test, which means its useless as a test for finding out who's got the right stuff or not. In this post, I shall tackle the test from the other example... by finding the worst possible person who could actually pass it. But rather than use subjective examples, I'll actually stick to one with a Pathfinder writeup.

Question #1 -- its mechanically listed as a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check. Anybody who can make that check makes the question. So, this is an actual stat we can look up! And do you know who can pass that check in their sleep? Nocticula. She's only got a Knowledge (Religion) of +51 listed in her writeup. {. . .}

Question #2 -- the pass/fail condition for this test is admitting that you're not sure, or being hesitant to come to a conclusion. This one she almost certainly fails; {. . .}

Nothing a little coaching couldn't solve, as long as said coaching was clear to avoid getting questions #2 and #3 mixed up. Whether or not this actually works depends upon how much of a pointy-haired boss/pin-headed CEO Nocticula actually is.

Quote:


Question #3 -- But by the same token, that lovely demon lord overconfidence/pride thing means that Nocticula will sail through this one. The success condition for this one is being certain about your answer, about being confident that you can get the mission done... and, well, demon lords are generally prideful and confident and sorts.

So now, how could we get a situation where Nocticula actually gets convinced to try this? {Insert evil Catbert laugh here . . . .}


Let's ignore the question of whether Iomedae is acting out of character or not. The entire set up of the scenario and the tests is contradictory. On page 8 there is an attempt to justify her actions by claiming that Iomedae fears sending the PCs to the Abyss if they are not ready. The tests are therefore to determine if they are in fact ready to confront a demon lord in the Abyss.

HOWEVER, even if the PCs fail all the tests Iomedae still sends them to the Abyss!!

Wasn't the point of the tests to supposedly determine if the PCs were ready? Therefore, doesn't failing all of them mean they are not ready? Why would you want them to go to the Abyss if they aren't ready?

The whole justification for the tests on page 8 breaks down if they are sent on the mission whether or not they pass.

Another rationalization of the tests is that if they pass Iomadae gives them "gifts" to aid the PCs on their mission. This doesn't make sense. If you want them to succeed on a mission that YOU want the to undertake then why wouldn't you give them all the help you can. Why make them jump through hoops to get your "gifts"?
This is just stupid behavior.


Rites of passage and tests of worthiness are a longstanding tradition in many cultures; sure, it would be easier to say "We need all the seasoned warriors we can gets, so everybody passes!" But that wouldn't turn out well in the long run. And nobody's got a bigger Big Picture view than a god.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"So let's beat up some helpless childred to determine who's the most worthy of them."


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Iomodae's Might, Right or Smite Guide to Parenting coming soon!


magnuskn wrote:
"So let's beat up some helpless children to determine who's the most worthy of them."

Wait, you're saying we need a reason now?

"As for which of my children that I love best and has rightful claim to the Holy Land: the Christian, Jew, or Muslim? I do not know; I guess we shall just have to see who wants it more."
--Voice of God, America: The Book--


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have no problem with the scene. There is a long standing fantasy tradition that it can be damaging to a mortal to simply be in the presence of a god or alternatively that they are so far above mortals that they take actions which are damaging without the intent of being so.

Heck in the Redemption Engine and the previous book the mere presence of a god's emissary causes damage (nose bleeds) to the main character. And why does the emissary do it, apparently just as a reminder of the status difference involved in the relationship.

Iomodae is in effect having a temper tantrum. She is not intending permanent injury. It is not beatific "turn the other cheek" stuff but she is a warrior goddess fighting a war. It reminds me of Patton hitting an American GI in Italy during WWII. He had his reasons for doing it even if it was ugly. But is was a war to save the world after all.

Scarab Sages

11 people marked this as a favorite.

A paladin that had a temper tantrum and did average of 70 points of damage to a handful of people (killing your average 7th level and below NPC) would fall.

All we ask is that Iomedae hold herself to the same thing she holds her paladins to.


So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?


IT ALSO LIVES!!!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!


UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?

Perhaps it spawns a mythic adventure path ;)

The Exchange

Honestly, while I see where some of you are coming from, I didn't feel Iomedae was out of character in her behavior towards our group. As I say that, I admit that our group naturally answered "correctly," so the punishment wasn't there, but all of the players walked in expecting a very severe, direct and demanding treatment.

Iomedae was a goddess who rose to prominence with a view of redemption that translated to "Fall upon your own blade and perhaps your soul will be purified enough so that you may be judged for your past wickedness in heaven instead of just being sent to hell to rot for eternity." It's one of her trials and miracles on her way to godhood, and considered a core aspect of her faith. I was honestly shocked she didn't criticize us for not offering a certain demoness the same option, since we had an Inquisitor of Iomedae in the party.

Her idea of a "Gift" is "Here, I'll give you a little boost for doing well. Now here's your real prize. You have the honor of going and saving the world while facing impossible odds doing it. Stiff upper lip, grab your sword, there's demons that need killing." She did much the same thing by summoning Aroden's Herald to keep an entire military force in place against a whole army of Wraiths, again as one of the core tenets of her faith.

When I read her write-up years ago, my response was "Ok, she's a pathfinder analogue to St. Cuthbert, Heironeous, Tyr and Helm." And in most of their depictions, they were all pretty much drill sergeants on good days. Helm and Cuthbert could be complete jerks at times. They didn't take guff from even the choirs of angels if they didn't live up to expectations, and you knew you'd pleased them if they had some new impossible thing for you to do. A cuff on the jaw (And I'm sorry, but 70 sonic is a cuff to my character, and I'm the archmage of the party. That's one healing spell to fix for our group when we're sporting level 8 magic.) to knock some sense into someone is well within their veil, and several of them were never known for their patience, nor was anything I'd ever read of Iomedae long before a sign that she was famous for her patience.

Torture is the repeated, extended use of pain, pleasure, psychological torment or some other form of stimulus to break someone's will. Here, she has her angelic choir cuff you up to three times and then sends you on your merry way to save the herald even if you don't meet her expectations because you're the best she's got. She's just not happy that she has to settle for the likes of you. That was the impression I got from the possible results of the conversation, and my character was under the impression that this was the case:

1) Please her, and she'll equip you a little more and send you off with her blessing.
2) Anger her, and she cuffs you but sends you because you're all she's got.
3) Really hork her off, and, well... roughly half of her trials to become god were for killing the unworthy. Were you really feeling that bold to backtalk the goddess who came to power on the corpse of the father of all Morghs?

I'll yield that maybe it was a bit much numerically from what I've seen of your stated numbers should someone fail at multiple questions, and our GM might have toned some of the numbers down. I'm not sure. I don't own the PDF and I won't buy any of this series until we finish playing book 6. However, I wasn't surprised by her behavior in general. This feels like an encounter that can be tweaked slightly, and I think "Torture" is a bit of an overstatement.


Errrr, if you haven't read part 5 of the AP then how do you know if your DM ran the encounter remotely according to the provided script or not? 'Cause I, who have read the entire encounter, can't tell from your description whether he did. For all we know he Rule Zero'ed the entire thing.

The Exchange

I've since spoken with him. He indicated that he stretched things slightly on one of the answers we gave (due to the fact that our party is half and half split down the middle on Redemption v Destruction of Evil as a dynamic, and both sides are passionate about it. The latter is simply willing to yield if it's clear atonement is possible.). No changes in mechanics.

His personal attitude was that the scale of the damage was a little silly, given that it was left to cause relatively little permanent harm, so it was a needless mechanic. But, with our group, he had no need to actually get into the mechanics involved, as the questions were asked correctly.

So, as I trust him as a GM, he followed the conversation points pretty closely.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?

In my campaign, Iomedae will fall. I generally go by the rule that "gods don't stick their fingers directly into the Prime Material Pie". They work through their intermediaries. If you are just grabbing people off the Prime, slapping them around and tossing them back, why don't the other gods do likewise? Seriously. Perhaps there are lots of examples of gods mucking around on the Prime, but I pretty much rule that they don't in my campaign. Otherwise, who needs adventurers when the Giant Thumb of God X can just manifest and squish the problem?

The unwritten, but generally accepted agreed upon by all gods manner of dealing with mortals - they just don't do what Iomedae just did when she directly messed with mortals. Iomedae crossed the line. The punishment from the other gods will be swift and merciless - she gets destroyed/falls/says bye-bye to her godhood. Aroden Mk2. Iomedean followers end up following Sarenae.

"The Penalty for Stupidity is Death". A good rule for PC's, just as good for the Gods. And Iomedae really knocked the "Lawful Stupid" ball clean outta the park here. You can read my previous posts in this thread as to why her actions made absolutely no sense what-so-ever.


Greek myths have oodles of examples of gods mucking about with mortals. Some do fall into the 'See those guys? Don't be like them.' category.

Grand Lodge

I ran one of my groups through this scene, they navigated all the questions well within what I thought were solid responses. I did explain the consequences of wrong answers though. There were some appreciative whistles at the damage (sonic no less) that could be dished out and some quick math to see who could survive max damage. Apart from that, their feed back could be summed up as this:

1) How could a group that's been paying attention answer those questions incorrectly? I mean, we guess it could happen, but really...?

2) So, Iomedae slaps us on the wrist for getting her questions wrong. That makes sense.

About what I expected.

Now, down into the Labyrinth itself.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
I wrote:


Okay, now I have to get off my rear and come up with the Qlippoth-Spawn Tiefling character that I have been toying with to try to get into a Wrath of the Righteous campaign . . . .

And finally, after MAJOR IRL interruptions, I put together the character background (crunch coming later, of course, if he actually gets into a campaign . . .).

Dracovar wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?

In my campaign, Iomedae will fall. {. . .}

"The Penalty for Stupidity is Death". A good rule for PC's, just as good for the Gods. And Iomedae really knocked the "Lawful Stupid" ball clean outta the park here. {. . .}

So, does this mean you'll soon be writing the future Adventure Path Fall of the Righteous? Put my vote in for that . . . :-)


Sprain Ogre wrote:

I ran one of my groups through this scene, they navigated all the questions well within what I thought were solid responses. I did explain the consequences of wrong answers though. There were some appreciative whistles at the damage (sonic no less) that could be dished out and some quick math to see who could survive max damage. Apart from that, their feed back could be summed up as this:

1) How could a group that's been paying attention answer those questions incorrectly? I mean, we guess it could happen, but really...?

2) So, Iomedae slaps us on the wrist for getting her questions wrong. That makes sense.

About what I expected.

Now, down into the Labyrinth itself.

As mentioned earlier its very, very easy for a group who's paying attention to answer incorrectly. Since test 1 is a random history skill check and requires a party have knowledge history or religion as opposed to just me hit horny demon. Meanwhile test 2 punishes you if you answer without seeming to think about it regardless of what that answer is. Even better if the party starts debating about it for too long they also fail. So if you've thought about it, reached an opinion and answer you fail. If you haven't thought about it or have reached an answer different to another party member and take too long arguing over it you fail. Nasty catch that considering the previous four books would have gotten most groups to reach an opinion on the subject by now.

Grand Lodge

And then, as my group commented, there's a slap on the wrist. High level mythic character's, yo.

As for question 1, it's a knowledge religion check. Just to ID undead, both of my groups have put ranks into that skill enough to make that with some reliability. Why I can't speak for all groups, it's a logical skill to have a few ranks in, especially for a campaign with this sort of focus. And, further, if you know your group is lacking in those ranks, switch it to a knowledge skill they do have ranks in. Or if your group is just that deficient in any knowledge skills, seed it in a handout sometime in late book 4.

For question 2, the group that's already gone through this has had some discussions on the topic that have gone for hours in real time over the last year of playing this path. Hours at a time. I was worried that they would spend to long, instead, realizing that the Goddess was waiting for an answer, they discussed it for a minute or two, and let the Oracle of Life devoted to Sarenrae answer it. Again, this is my group and I can't speak for all. however, since we're just using examples of playing, since this is hardly scientific, the above was MY example of how a group did deal with it. My group had not reached an agreement over the previous books, but were still able to answer the question after some small debate, but not stretched out.

And even if they did, again, it's a slap on the wrist.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A slap on the wrist that would turn probably 50% of Golarions population into chunky salsa


Kevin Mack wrote:
A slap on the wrist that would turn probably 50% of Golarions population into chunky salsa

I LIKE CHUNKY SALSA!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kevin Mack wrote:
A slap on the wrist that would turn probably 50% of Golarions population into chunky salsa

Which is fine, since approximately 0.00000000005% of Golarion's population ever has to worry about meeting and being tested by any of the deities.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
A slap on the wrist that would turn probably 50% of Golarions population into chunky salsa
Which is fine, since approximately 0.00000000005% of Golarion's population ever has to worry about meeting and being tested by any of the deities.

i beg to differ! i meet everyone!

of course when they meet me they've already failed a test of some sort

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Except having ran that bit by two groups both have agreed that as written it really dosent work for a goddess of honour good and justice.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kevin Mack wrote:
Except having ran that bit by two groups both have agreed that as written it really dosent work for a goddess of honour good and justice.

Perhaps... but again... look at her role—she's a goddess of honor and justice, yes, and she IS good aligned, yes... but she's not a "goddess of good."

Which is, of course, semantics, but that's what the internet is for.

Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Except having ran that bit by two groups both have agreed that as written it really dosent work for a goddess of honour good and justice.

Perhaps... but again... look at her role—she's a goddess of honor and justice, yes, and she IS good aligned, yes... but she's not a "goddess of good."

Which is, of course, semantics, but that's what the internet is for.

Well even at that as mentioned before you actually encounter her in the very first book (Admitadly in a dream/vision but dont think that would affect anything.) and her personality is a complete 180 turn on how she acts later.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

its a good thing its an adventure so you can tailor her to how you would interpret how she would act:)

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes but the fact I have to do that to make sure it is a none combat encounter is very problematic. At the end of the day my players all agreed that as written Iomedae dosent come across as a Lg goddess of Justice and honour (One actually asking me if this was another paladins of asmodeus moment)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As said before ran 2 groups through it first group would have failed on the second question (All would have automaticly answerd yes to whether redemption could be achieved) but modified it for that one because one character had the trait that made them Iomedae's daughter and the idea that she would slap her own daughter around or mute her for possibly talking back made me very uneasy (In all honesty having a character end up being Iomedae's child in general auomaticly makes that entire section none workable as written)

Second group would by themselves failed the first question (None of the main party members had any ranks knowledge religion instead they had one of the NPC'S handle those checks but as shown below that in itself would create it's own problems.) and again would have failed on the second question.

Another reason the second group would be pretty problamatic is that the Npc they relied on for info like knowledge religion was a redeemed Nurah so as written would have been a no win situation if she diddent go they would have failed 2 of 3 questions if she had they would still have failed the second question (Which in itself would have completly destroyed there redeeming of her)


4 people marked this as a favorite.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
I wrote:


Okay, now I have to get off my rear and come up with the Qlippoth-Spawn Tiefling character that I have been toying with to try to get into a Wrath of the Righteous campaign . . . .

And finally, after MAJOR IRL interruptions, I put together the character background (crunch coming later, of course, if he actually gets into a campaign . . .).

Dracovar wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, what happens when a goddess loses her faith?

In my campaign, Iomedae will fall. {. . .}

"The Penalty for Stupidity is Death". A good rule for PC's, just as good for the Gods. And Iomedae really knocked the "Lawful Stupid" ball clean outta the park here. {. . .}

So, does this mean you'll soon be writing the future Adventure Path Fall of the Righteous? Put my vote in for that . . . :-)

Fall of the Righteous - great idea! I think I'd bring Nocticula into the mix...

Nocticula: Hey Sweetie, why the sad face?
Iomedae: I just got demoted. Seems you can't just smack around your own people and call yourself a LG Goddess anymore. Saranae really blind-sided me and snagged my followers, smug, self-righteous, ^%$#$@ that she is.
Nocticula: You had the right idea, just wrong alignment. I should know, I fell too, a long, long time ago.
Iomedae: Really?
Nocticula: Yup. Fell hardcore. So, I just rolled with it. Took things to their logically evil and entertaining conclusions. It was liberating, in a way. And now you can take my place!
Iomedae: Wut?
Nocticula: Seriously, I've got my eye on some portfolios and pretty much pulled some cool strings lately to finagle myself some Godhood. You had an indirect hand in that, by the way, so thanks! As a reward, I offer you my old Abyssal realm to rule in my place.
Iomedae: But, but, you're EVIL.
Noticula: So are you, frankly. Shut up and deal. Get it out of your system. Have some real laughs, you're way to serious. A couple millennia from now, you'll be ready to get back into the Goddess game, trust me.
Iomedae: Fine, I accept, but only because I'm really going to punish the living daylights out of your followers, you know. I still despise chaos and evil.
Nocticula: I did the same thing. How do you think I got the reputation I have? Punish away, sweetie, it's pretty much expected.

(This is all, of course, just a random musing on my part.)

Dark Archive

7 people marked this as a favorite.

I get that the AP is old news now, but I'm just getting around to reading it now, as I was considering running it. I was really baffled by this scene too, as it seemed very out of character from her writeups in other supplements. Anyways;

I have read this thread, and I get that the scene really did not come across as intended. But it is what it is.

I just had an amusing thought for a followup to WotR. The WotR party are a bunch of Clerics & Warpriests & Priests of other gods. They're of mixed alignments, all non evil; but none of them worship Iomedae. They've redeemed several of the demons thus far, and have decided that's their official policy - no conflict needed.

They don't do well with the questions. They are blasted, but cooperate. At least one of them dies. Upon being released; they all tell their gods of what happened.

Suddenly the Paladin God (who just broke two parts of the paladin code, what with the kidnapping and assaulting of her allies' worshippers - both not respecting their rightful authority over their worshippers AND dishonorably betraying her allies), is on the outs with possibly 4-8 (probably 5) other gods.

After finishing the worldwound plot; the party turns their focus to deposing the Mad Tyrant Paladin Iomedae, and lead a holy war against her. Maybe some of the redeemed-demons (redeemons) join the cause. New campaign starts with old PCs as leading NPCs.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

^And so Fall of the Righteous begins . . . .


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^And so Fall of the Righteous begins . . . .

Man that was a fun movie, especially when Brad Pitt fought the bear at the end, f@+&ing classic!

... wait, that's not right.. what's the opposite of classic?... it was better than any Adam Sandler movie, that's it!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LordOfThreshold wrote:


>As mortals within the divine realm, maybe the sonic damage is just a side effect. Mortals were not meant to hear the glorious sounds of the Gods orchestra. Ever seen that scene in 'Dogma'? It's like that.

Nobody cares. Pathfinder's cosmology is Lovercraftian atheism anyway and there is absolutely nothing mystic or transcedent about deities. In this particular situation a deity wants something that benefits her and something she cannot accomplish on her own from PCs. When people ask favors, they should act accordingly.

That's before remembering oft-forgotten fact that acting like a self-absorbed jerk is not only hardly constructive, but unbecoming of a figure of great authority. Particularly at the gaming table, where your arrogant and bombastic speeches won't be told by a great voice actor in a controlled studio environment, but would be subjected to players' comments in and out of character.

LordOfThreshold wrote:
Honestly, if you have a group of PCs that mouth off to a goddess or attack her, they deserve exactly what happens to them. I'm from an old school group and all of them agree, you sit down and you shut up when a God talks.

You have a funny definition of old school that makes me think your school is not really old.

In the real old school you stab a goddess in the face and loot her demiplane (if you really were old school, you might have heard about a module where you do exactly that). Before riding dragons you've slapped into submission to confront Orcus.

LordOfThreshold wrote:
Any group not willing to show proper respect to a Goddess has a serious case of their own prideful self worth, a weakness the Abyss will quickly use to destroy them.

Prideful self-worth does not make one's Will saves any lower in DnD. And the Abyss, as actually written in WotR part 5, does not meaningfully challenge PCs's moral convictions. Only Will saves.

Well, that's before pointing out that judging by Iomedae's behavior they are just emulating their role model.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually I disagree on old school, in my brother's old school you got disintegrated on multiple occasions by several Beholders, of course this isn't until after the Mind Flayer brain raping.... I never got close to challenging the likes of Odin or Thor :-)

Also you should know you come across as a bit rude or stand offish :-)

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

How old is the post he's responding to?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Beats me :-)

It's his shtick, find a post at random and tear into it bit by bit in a confrontational manner, it gets.... tiresome:\

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:

Beats me :-)

It's his shtick, find a post at random and tear into it bit by bit in a confrontational manner, it gets.... tiresome:\

I actually know LordOfThreshold IRL... might be seeing him in a little while. I'll have to tell him he's got a fan. ^_^


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Personally I'm fine with how it's written, but I can see how it would run people the wrong way, its hard to put deities into you adventures because everyone has a different idea on how they should act or what they should say:-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

Beats me :-)

It's his shtick, find a post at random and tear into it bit by bit in a confrontational manner, it gets.... tiresome:\

I actually know LordOfThreshold IRL... might be seeing him in a little while. I'll have to tell him he's got a fan. ^_^

that is awesome! Small world:-D


9 people marked this as a favorite.

DM ran this straight from the book. Had some bickering of party vs DM at the end. Most memorable was this convo (not exact, what i can remember from memory). Don't think this adventure will continue since this was a pick up group but it was rather funny

Wizard: I scry for that librarian cleric who was stacking books in the city, teleport with the barbarian, grab her than teleport back. I have the spells memorized. Do we need to roll attack or whatever?

GM: Ok she's a level 3 wizard. You're level 17. You succeed.

Cleric: I'm going to tell her i'm testing her as a rep for Shizuru to make sure she can do her librarian job that she's been doing for years correctly and ask her if good people should redeem evil or kill them.

GM: She hesitates before answering that they should be redeemed.

Cleric: BEEEP! Wrong answer. Hesitation shows lack of conviction. Barb wake her up please.

Barbarian: Ok i punch her in the ribs as an unarmed strike without using strength. She won't die from the damage even on a critical and she can even AoO me if she wants. Its just damage right? Nothing wrong with using some damage that won't kill her to wake her up?

GM: Ok she's pleading with you to stop hitting her and that she doesn't even know who Shizuru is.

Cleric: Who cares if she doesn't follow Shizuru. We measure everyone by Shizuru's ruler regardless of who they follow. We need to make sure she can do the important job that she's been doing so far. What we are doing is perfectly LG right?

The next question ended up having the librarian dead because the barbarian punched twice instead of once but was true resurrected by the cleric (roughly followed what happened in the module i think). Game ended after the paladin player (who just stood around with me) suggested ending the session.

DM did manage to avoid the obvious trap of telling them to change alignment since this mirrored iomedae's part


3 people marked this as a favorite.
The Glob wrote:


DM did manage to avoid the obvious trap of telling them to change alignment since this mirrored iomedae's part

Don't forget to force her, willing or not, to do a job for you purely to save face with the other adventurers out there while another librarian is off finding "That Book You Need To Fix The Problem."

Oh, and give her a Mythic Tier, because she got to speak with mighty heroes.

Good thing she didn't fight back though, otherwise you'd have to blind her, deafen her, forcibly change her alignment to Chaotic Evil and throw her into a pit full of vipers.

It was self-defense.


Eh, you guys can do better, I'm not sure if you really captured the sarcasm.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I had this idea for how clerics/followers of different deities could meet their deities.

The PCs get an invitation to a party at a tavern, if/when they arrive there is a very nice party going with lots of food, drink and fun people having a good time. Let the pcs eat drink and be merry for a while before they are shown to a private room

After getting settled in, the door opens and Cayden Caiden enters and asks if they would like to fulfill a request of his.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I read through all of this, and I have to say the arguments that Iomedae was justified in doing anything because she was a goddess gave me the hardest laugh of all. Indeed, why should the rules apply to Iomedae, Lawful Good patron of Justice and Paladins? Only filthy mortals need to actually be Good to have a Good alignment.

I want to say that just makes her Asmodeus with t!**, but Big A actually cares about the Law.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I have no problem with the scenario as written.

Looking at some of the replies and, yes, posters, I can see a major age category/edition divide. I'm older, and have has to deal with idiot players(and have been the Idiot player) before, so I can see why this was written the way it was. I do also think that in all adventure paths, this scene requires the most contouring to the party I have ever seen. Ever.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At first as I looked back I thought it odd it got through a whole page before I joined in.

Then I saw Chris's post about removing derailing posts, and I realized that was me. :-)

451 to 500 of 526 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Wrath of the Righteous / Book 5: Discussion on Iomedae [SPOILERS AHOY!] All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.