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I always focus on defense+ maneuvers and other ways to shut that one thing down that need to be shut down. Monks excel at both. DPR is not what a monk (IRL OR PF) does, while he can dish out some hurt, he is a better (as others have put if) scalpel. Always be the first into the fight, put your defenses to use (they WILL try to hit the half naked man for a turn or two, unless they somehow have prior knowledge of you) and if they ignore you? make em pay.
I love the tetori and maneuver master for these although a drunken master of many styles can work wonders as well.
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Best possible way to optimize a Monk? Mix it with a Druid of course!!
Being Huge sized, Level 10 monk at the minimum, Monk's Robe, Monastic Legacy Feat, Strong Jaw. That gets you 12d8 in just your fist damage alone per swing.
However, if you do not want to mix Druid, then go straight Monk(Qinggong) and somehow get access to a Size enhancing spell like Enlarge, and the Strong Jaw spell that increases your Unarmed Strike damage die by 2 categories. This is about as good as it all gets.
You could also go Monk/Brother of the Seal.
Snake Style, Snake Sidewind, and Snake Fang are fantastic options if your AC is high enough. They give you even more attacks :)
Also, if you can somehow acquire Pounce or just take the Dimensional Agility/Assault/Dervish feats and jack up your Abundant Step to basically be a pounce that reaches anything anywhere.(Think of Goku and his Instant Transmission) This will greatly help your damage every round(DPR) as you can always close the gap AND still pull off a full attack.
Not Crane Style, that's for sure.
If you do find another good combo, keep it under your hat.
Yes, I will keep pounding on this.
Play Sohei or ZAM - guess thats the most effective thing to do as monk.
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Use Crane Wing as printed in your physical book and ignore any nonsense errata someone might have made in a drunken rage.
hungry ghost monk with panther style. If you ever provoke an attack of opportunity kick them away before you even get hit.
It's not really optimized, but I'm going to play a Sensei/Qinggong monk. It's a large party (7-8 players, though not all will show every time) and we have a lot of melee at the moment. We're level 12, so I can drop Battlemind Link on the entire party.
@IronTruth: it is super convenient to take 2 levels of ninja or rogue to get access to ninja tricks (the rogue way goes via a talent that lets you take ninja tricks). Being able to give the whole party invisibility and shadow clones is very sexy.
If you go the rogue route you have the advantage that you can take the Extra Rogue Talent feat multiple times to get multiple ninja tricks. And to round it off, you can also get Forgotten Trick and use it to grant the whole party a combat feat (by forgotten trick'ing Combat Trick), or whatever useful feature you need. (Darkvision, Deflect Arrows, Featherfall, Slow Metabolism, Wall Climber, etc.)
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Heh, those are actually some really cool ways to play a monk. Never thought about mixing a druid (although it now seems obvious)Best possible way to optimize a Monk? Mix it with a Druid of course!!
Being Huge sized, Level 10 monk at the minimum, Monk's Robe, Monastic Legacy Feat, Strong Jaw. That gets you 12d8 in just your fist damage alone per swing.
However, if you do not want to mix Druid, then go straight Monk(Qinggong) and somehow get access to a Size enhancing spell like Enlarge, and the Strong Jaw spell that increases your Unarmed Strike damage die by 2 categories. This is about as good as it all gets.
You could also go Monk/Brother of the Seal.
Snake Style, Snake Sidewind, and Snake Fang are fantastic options if your AC is high enough. They give you even more attacks :)
Also, if you can somehow acquire Pounce or just take the Dimensional Agility/Assault/Dervish feats and jack up your Abundant Step to basically be a pounce that reaches anything anywhere.(Think of Goku and his Instant Transmission) This will greatly help your damage every round(DPR) as you can always close the gap AND still pull off a full attack.
They synergize extraordinarily well. I swear it's like they were meant to be together.
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A Warpriest of Irori is a pretty optimized monk...
Unarmed Strike is their Sacred Weapon, and they can make ANY weapon a Sacred weapon simply by taking weapon focus in it. Sacread weapon is better than flurry of blows, because it has a Real full BAB instead of only Full BAB on full attacks. You can still take TWF feats if you want to have "Flurry" Sacred weapon Damage is only one level behind a monks unarmed strike damage, and it applies to any weapon, not just unarmed strikes.
That have 6 levels of spells, including magic weapon and greater magic weapon that they can swift action cast on themselves to not need an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
They don't get an AC bonus, but they can wear armor, so that is a wash.
They don't get ki, fast movement, and special abilites, but they can cast spells.
I love monks, but the ACG isn't kind to them.
I think warpriest of Irori defeats the purpose of the thread. (Granted, there is a lot of incentive for the warpriest, it just doesn't mesh so well with the OP's intention of having a silly powerful monk when his fellow players are expecting a subpar monk.)
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It also lets you self-buff your unarmed attacks before strong jaw. Since Flame Blade is a melee touch spell, you can cast Flame Blade, then make a normal flurry of blows. You are not targeting touch AC, but when you hit they take your unarmed strike damage and flame blade damage.
It also works with Produce Flame.
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It also lets you self-buff your unarmed attacks before strong jaw. Since Flame Blade is a melee touch spell, you can cast Flame Blade, then make a normal flurry of blows. You are not targeting touch AC, but when you hit they take your unarmed strike damage and flame blade damage.
It also works with Produce Flame.
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks
Emphasis mine. Unless you are able to flurry with a scimitar, the damage from the wielded magic blade will not apply.
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A "Vanilla" monk or Martial Artist with WIS as the primary stat becomes very good with the Paizo (3.5) "Guided" property.
Especially if you can start at a level when you have enough cash to purchase a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists.
If you can convince your GM to allow "Perfect Strike" to work with Unarmed Strikes, the Weapon Master archetype basically becomes a melee Zen Archer (when combined with Guided). Of course using a Quarterstaff doesn't require the house tie on Perfect Strike and grants you a 3:1 return on Power Attack, which is very nice. Again, this only requires use of "Guided" to be very effective.
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It also lets you self-buff your unarmed attacks before strong jaw. Since Flame Blade is a melee touch spell, you can cast Flame Blade, then make a normal flurry of blows. You are not targeting touch AC, but when you hit they take your unarmed strike damage and flame blade damage.
It also works with Produce Flame.
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacksEmphasis mine. Unless you are able to flurry with a scimitar, the damage from the wielded magic blade will not apply.
This may be an instance of Specific Overriding general, but from the holding the charge rules for touch spells:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Since you are making an unarmed attack, and you have a touch spell active, The blade should still damage. However, you could see table variation. Produce Flame still works just fine though.
8 levels of MoMS/qigong/hungry ghost - to get snake, crane, and panther (use punishing kick with panther to avoid damage)or dragon (for the extra damage)or both and take combat style master
2 levels of ninja to get shadow clone (mirror image)
4 levels of the ranger archetype that lets you rage despite being lawful
4 levels of fighter (weapon master) to get wpn training (for your gloves of dueling, wpn focus and specialization and brawling mithral chain shirt a total of +6 to hit and +7 to damage beyond BAB)
2 more levels to play with (either more monk for the bonus feat at tenth or alchemist for the mutagen bonus to strength.)
So it's debatable if this is actually a monk, but I think it'd be a heckuva lot of fun for an unarmed build.
An interesting alternative is the ranger archetype crossed with martial artist and rage chemist. (Martial artist essentially makes the character immune to pitfalls of rage and the rage mutagen.)
Crane is worthless now after yesterdays errata.
Wow that errata is weird. I'd love to know why they though the old crane wing was too powerful.
That said, crane wing fighting defensively still synergizes with snake fang (Actually a little better than it did before.) But Crane riposte no longer works at all.
In that case, I'd just replace crane with Dragon for the extra damage.
@IronTruth: it is super convenient to take 2 levels of ninja or rogue to get access to ninja tricks (the rogue way goes via a talent that lets you take ninja tricks). Being able to give the whole party invisibility and shadow clones is very sexy.
If you go the rogue route you have the advantage that you can take the Extra Rogue Talent feat multiple times to get multiple ninja tricks. And to round it off, you can also get Forgotten Trick and use it to grant the whole party a combat feat (by forgotten trick'ing Combat Trick), or whatever useful feature you need. (Darkvision, Deflect Arrows, Featherfall, Slow Metabolism, Wall Climber, etc.)
That's a possibility, but it'd be a couple levels away, we're 12th right now. I also grabbed True Strike and Barkskin. At best I'll get one rogue/ninja talent, plus an extra from a feat.
Side note, I'm keeping Crane Style at a minimum. My intention being to get into melee to provide flanking, keep melee in range of my Advice for ki expenditures, and apply Stunning Fist. My damage output on this character is very low, but I like the idea of always fighting defensively for a low attack penalty. Will probably also use Combat Expertise.
You all have it wrong. The best way to play a monk is to have a buddy cast the spell armor at ya so you get +4 AC in a fight. A monk in my party get's that spell everytime a rumble starts and he rocks bigtime in the frontline at low level.
Hmm, I agree with Kazumetsa that the Drd/Mnk is a really good build. Several permutations to it as well (pounce 12d8 unarmed strike full attack, Trip the Tarrasque, Conqueror Ooze one-hit TKO balors at 10th lvl, and the grapple build that I am currently working on).
But I've recently wondered whether it would be worth it to multi-class cleric of Shizuru, take guided hand and crusader's flurry and go to town with a keen katana? (The Repose domain means that you will be medusa striking with the best of them if you take Domain Strike).
prototype00
Ah, that is true. That and cleric doesn't really have the size shennanigans that the druid has. Shame really.
prototype00
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But I've recently wondered whether it would be worth it to multi-class cleric of Shizuru, take guided hand and crusader's flurry and go to town with a keen katana? (The Repose domain means that you will be medusa striking with the best of them if you take Domain Strike).
prototype00
It's pretty similar to a build I made using a Crusader Cleric of Sarenrae 1/Hungry Ghost qinggong monk x. Katana is slightly better, but Scimitar has dervish dance. And since the guy was a cleric of Sarenrae, I didn't feel dirty using Dervish Dance. Once you get keen or improved crit you have basically unlimited Ki.
It's pretty similar to a build I made using a Crusader Cleric of Sarenrae 1/Hungry Ghost qinggong monk x. Katana is slightly better, but Scimitar has dervish dance. And since the guy was a cleric of Sarenrae, I didn't feel dirty using Dervish Dance. Once you get keen or improved crit you have basically unlimited Ki.
But I've recently wondered whether it would be worth it to multi-class cleric of Shizuru, take guided hand and crusader's flurry and go to town with a keen katana? (The Repose domain means that you will be medusa striking with the best of them if you take Domain Strike).
prototype00
Ah, that is true. And the Repose Domain staggered means that if you push them away with punishing kick, they can't really do much to get back to you, or even get up if you knock them prone.
prototype00
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off the top of my head:
-to-hit is your worst enemy. since most monk "options" tend to be traps or outright hurtful (see: brawling enchant, AoMF's exorbitant price, bodywrap of mighty strikes, etc.), you need to be careful of your purchases.
-the quain martial artist trait (from the dragon empires primer) gives you a +1 to unarmed strike damage.
-keep flurry, it is a large attack accuracy increase that is much-needed on a class with no built-in attack bonuses to cover its 3/4 BAB base.
-clockwork prosthetics. costs 6400g and a limb to remove the moneysucking piece of junk that is the AoMF. arms and legs both give great bonuses so either is fine to choose. yes, it literally costs a monk an arm and/or a leg to not have an item slot tax for merely existing.
-ioun stones are your friend: pale green and cracked pale green prisms are an easy +2 to attack/saves/skills/ability checks if you've ot the dosh, and the cracked one is morale, meaning it can be amped up by your courageous enchant by another 1-2 (depending on then enhancement bonus).
an opalescent pyramid (slotted into a wayfinder) nets you weapon focus for free for an extra +1 attack
-bane baldric for a swift-action +2 attack/+2d6 damage as a 5th level inquisitor's bane ability.
-jingasa of the fortunate soldier is a rather cheap and easy way to gain +1 AC all the time and a mini fortification/SA shutdown ability once per day.
-boots of haste for a 10 rd/day extra attack, +2 to attack, +1AC/reflex and a move increase (this move increase may not stack with monk speed, but everything else is nice)
-dragon style/dragon ferocity/elemental fist really cranks up your damage if you have decent STR
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also, consider a 3-level dip in weapon master fighter, since it nets you 2 extra feats and weapon training, letting you use dueling gloves for +3 attack/damage total, and having your 17-th level monk ability become your new "capstone" in a manner (depending on your archetype, it tends to be better than the level 20 one anyway).
speaking of archetypes: qinggong lets you gain SLAs for use with arcane strike (scaling bonus damage), hungry ghost makes ki regen be less of a hassle, sacred mountain has helpful defense bonuses at the cost of your mobility in a manner (it doesnt say you CANT move, only that you start and end your turn in the same square--you could feasibly run by and murder dudes and head back to your starting point and still keep the bonus).
monk vows (particularly silence, which synergizes well with sacred mountain's 17th level ability) make for easy ki boosts.
I'm playing a Serene Barbarian 2 / Zen Archer Monk 3 right now. Check out the Serenity ability which replaces Rage. It's pretty good for ZAM. DM wouldn't let me combine the two until I went Aasimar and took the trait that allows monk levels with N alignment. I'm looking at one level of Empyreal Sorcerer for access to Gravity Bow spell and maybe tattooed to get a familiar that grants +4 initiative. There are all kinds of dips I'm considering. Most likely Inquisitor 2, but have recently been looking at the Psionic Marksman. I've never played a Psionic or played with anyone else who did, but it looks cool. There is also a Psionic Prestige class called Psionic Fist that lets you progress your Monk abilities like a lot of PCs do with spell casters while also giving you access to Psionic Power stuff. That looks tasty.
"Roll for stats"
My guess for a really crazy unarmed specialist?
Halfling Strength MoMS that takes Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity/Crane Style + Crane Riposte (skip Crane Wing by using the Monk bonus feat)/Tiger Style + Tiger Pounce (skip Tiger Claws)/Snake Style + Snake Fang (skip Snake Sidewind) with Power Attack and Risky Striker.
Start of Crane/Dragon for an offensive/defensive build, add in Tiger when you can to mitigate the Power Attack penalty with your AC bonus from Crane. Between Dragon, Power Attack and Risky Striker you'll have quite a bit of damage going for this Halfling Monk as long as you're fighting larger sized creature or bigger.
Also, cut off the Halflings' limbs and replace them with Clockwork Prostheses from Magic Marketplace. I wouldn't advise this normally (even though they are inherently better than AoMF) because it's cheesy, but you asked for cheese. Then enhance one of the Prostheses as per a normal weapon. Take prioritize Strength and either Dex or Wis for AC (but not both) then Con, and then the remainder between Dex and Wis.
Once you get the first 3 styles going, you can dip Brawler Fighter for their weapon training and get some gloves of dueling A.S.A.P. for a further +3/+5 to hit and damage.
From there, just start picking up all of the accuracy boosting items you can. Once you get Tiger Pounce, you shouldn't have any penalties to hit (as you are adding Power Attack penalty to AC instead).
I have no idea if this is the most optimized 'Monk' unarmed class, but it has the potential to be a pretty crazy one at mid-high levels.
My guess for a really crazy unarmed specialist?
Halfling Strength MoMS that takes Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity/Crane Style + Crane Riposte (skip Crane Wing by using the Monk bonus feat)/Tiger Style + Tiger Pounce (skip Tiger Claws)/Snake Style + Snake Fang (skip Snake Sidewind) with Power Attack and Risky Striker.
If you skip Crane Wing, how does Crane Riposte activate? You get the passive bonus, sure, but it seems a bit of a waste. (Is this to do with the nerf?)
prototype00
I'm not sure why you'd suggest prioritizing dex or wis over the other.
the price of a 16 dex and 10 wis is the same as a 14 dex and 14 wis, and one nets you a higher ac point.
What I mean is how your prioritize the ability scores. For example go Str/Dex/Con/Wis or go Str/Wis/Con/Dex. Don't try and go Str-Dex/Wis-Con because that tends to make a hole in one area of the character. For instance, you might end up making a high AC character with a glass jaw.
My guess for a really crazy unarmed specialist?
Halfling Strength MoMS that takes Dragon Style + Dragon Ferocity/Crane Style + Crane Riposte (skip Crane Wing by using the Monk bonus feat)/Tiger Style + Tiger Pounce (skip Tiger Claws)/Snake Style + Snake Fang (skip Snake Sidewind) with Power Attack and Risky Striker.
If you skip Crane Wing, how does Crane Riposte activate? You get the passive bonus, sure, but it seems a bit of a waste. (Is this to do with the nerf?)
prototype00
It's mainly an idea I've been tossing around in my head for a while, but never sat down and really built.
Pre-Nerf, I absolutely would have gone for Crane Wing, but post nerf, not so much.
While the Errata for Crane Riposte makes it a little better after the Errata to Crane Wing, being defensive isn't really the focus of that particular build.
Keep in mind, that as a MoMS, he never gains access to a Power Attack better than -4/+8(12) so by taking Crane Style/Riposte and Tiger Style/Pounce you take the -4 penalty to attack and apply it to AC, which perfectly counteracts the +4 to AC from using Crane Style with 3 ranks in Acrobatics. Effectively, Power Attack at no penalty; kind of a worse version of the Reckless Abandon rage power.
On top of that, he's getting Risky Striker bonus, which is a -1 penalty to AC in return for a +2 bonus on damage that scales by another +2 every 4 levels, but the AC penalty never increases.
So, by 12th level (Monk 9, Brawler Fighter 3), you have a -1 penalty to AC, and a +16 damage bonus from your feats. On top of that, you're getting 1.5 Strength on unarmed strike damage (with 2x strength damage on the first attack in a round).
So you could be sitting on a +25 damage bonus between feats and strength (22 Str with a +4 belt) on your Halfling Monk. Add in weapon enhancement (since you cut off your arm and replaced it with a clockwork arm), weapon training (with gloves) and you'll be sitting somewhere on a +20ish attack bonus with a +30ish damage bonus.