i'd like to see a Wushu themed Archetype for the Swashbuckler that uses 2handed spears and polearms in a way similar to how most use 1handed slashing or piercing weapons. a graceful performance of the glaive yet a deadly combat style.
Wu-Shu is a very pretty martial art in the hands of a master, a gorgeous performance of great elegance. the archetype would focus on the style's elegance.
yes, finesse spears and polearms getting dex to hit and 1.5x dex to damage. it could also be used as a stand-in for Naginata-do and similar styles.
Lu-Bu would be pleased
agility aside, how does ANY of that say swashbuckler? that says
"agility based martial artist" its something that you want to see but does not fit in with the class by any stretch.it's an Archetype that changes the swashbuckler as much as the Zen Archer changes the monk, the Swashbuckler could have Archetypes with Radically different agility based options and could be a dumping ground for agile weapon masters in a way similar to how the Alchemist is a dumping ground for scientists
it's not very Errol Flynn, but it's Very Wuxia, which is like the chinese equivalent to highly cinematic swashbuckling and shares the styles of daring and panache.
just as Swashbucklers take on thousands of similarly armed and inferior skilled men with a foil, Wu-Shu masters do the same with a Spear or polearm in heavier magnitudes against enemy spearmen.
both use a lot of parry and riposte
both use a bit of precision and a lot of choreography
both use a lot of wire fu
both are relatively flashy and bold
I would have to agree, wuxia films are the eastern equivalent of swashbuckler films in my opinion. Not necessarily with the charismatic front, but in the fighting types.
Would work better as a Swashbuckler/Monk hybrid though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If the goal of class design is that it should be desirable to make single class characters, the Swashbuckler is a failure.
I think the swashbuckler should be able to obtain easy access to the Style feats in some way other than dipping MoMS. As it stands, a MoMS dip is almost compulsory. The question is not shall I dip MoMS, but when.
Perhaps if they could take the style feats as bonus feats without having to meet the prerequisites?
Actually, having to take martial arts style feats is in itself a failure for a class built to simulate western-style fencing. The swashbuckler should be able to perform at this level of competency out of the box.
I would have to agree, wuxia films are the eastern equivalent of swashbuckler films in my opinion. Not necessarily with the charismatic front, but in the fighting types.
When reading wuxia films, the first thing I thought about was:
Wuxi New Laminat Film Co., ltd. But they got nothing to do with movies. Nor with swashbucklers.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, having to take martial arts style feats is in itself a failure for a class built to simulate western-style fencing. The swashbuckler should be able to perform at this level of competency out of the box.
I agree, I would like to see some western-style fencing feats, maybe ones that are similar to the monk style feats, but have more appropriate fluff. Perhaps the Swashbuckler could get them instead of its bonus feats, or avoid prerequisites. An alternative may be to make them Swashbuckler only feats, linked to Swashbuckler levels in a similar way to the Fighter only feats. Or make new Fighter only feats, so that Fighters, Swashbucklers, Brawlers and Samurai can take them also. This may give incentive to stay in the class.
Using Crane Style with a rapier doesn't really make sense, although it is legal RAW.
I want my Swashbuckler to be able to have this exchange:
Inigo: You are using Bonetti's defense against me, uh?
Man In Black: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro.
Man In Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa,which I have!
# Wushu Swashbucklers
Seems like an alternate swashbuckler class to me, much as the samurai is an alternate cavalier and the ninja an alternate rogue.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
CONTAINS ACTUAL PLAYTEST DATA
Alright, a friend of mine (Jay) and I tried out the new Swashbuckler along with a wizard, cleric, and finesse build rogue in encounters at 1st and 7th levels. We wanted to try 15th level (where high level math begins breaking down the game balance if you are not careful), but ran out of time. I also created my own vicious Swashbuckler to try something else: two Swashbucklers in duels! We also accomplished this at 1st and 7th levels. We built off the 20 point PFS legal system.
We found at 1st level the new Swashbuckler handled very well in combat and now matched up with the finesse rogue quite well and hit more often. The fight was with three warriors in armor and the fight flowed well and very typical for a 1st level confrontation. However, we found that a minimum of 3 panache is required for the player to feel comfortable spending points. Since Int is now only needed for skill points and not the various Combat Expertise feats, this isn’t the issue it once was with so many attributes being required. However, out of combat the character needs social skills. The 4 plus Int bonus level is just too few. As long as only a few of the skills in the class list can be used directly in combat, what does it matter if the character has 6 points like a Bard? The Bard’s performance abilities should over shadow the face abilities of the Swashbuckler while still making the Swashbuckler charming in his own right.
And let us bring up an important point: DO NOT build a Swashbuckler without Acrobatics. This one skill makes the Swashbuckler able to move about combat without drawing AoO. It is critical to the feel and flow of the class. In the duel, the only movement that our two Swashbucklers had was what was initiated by a Dodging Panache initiated by Jay’s character. There is actually very little in the class that encourages movement. Perhaps some deeds that really reward moving around the battle field could be added?
Also, the weapon selection of pointy things and a feat tax for slashing brought up an interesting idea: a Swashbuckler’s weapon group. Take a group of weapons and make that list what is used for Swashbuckler Finesse, and you do away with morning stars, long swords, and bastard swords used with Finesse.
At 7th level, the Swashbuckler fulfilled the Fighter role quite well. He did decent enough damage that the cave giant couldn’t ignore the Swashbuckler, thus protecting the rest of the party. His AC was about the same level as comparable level Fighters due to his Nimble ability and high Dex. Jay thought that Dodge should be incorporated into Nimble for Feat equivalency, but I pointed out that the way it is set up Dodge stacks with Nimble. This makes it a very good ability. On a lark Jay tried Targeted Strike on the giant’s arms to see if he could get her to drop her axe. He was successful, but wasn’t sure what the point was. It was then that I realized that Menacing Swordplay just says hit not damage. With a combination of Targeted Strike and Menacing Swordplay a Swashbuckler can seriously hamper an opponent for not only a round, but for a significant chunk of the combat. A useful one-two punch.
The 7th level duel was the eye-opener of this test, however. The very first exchange of attacks has a parry, riposte, and block. It felt like a movie swordplay fight. Amazing! The exchange went well for some time with parries, ripostes, and hits. Then I had my villain use an Improved Dirty Trick to throw mud in Jay’s character’s eyes. He was blinded and my villain got in some solid blows, putting Jay’s character on the ropes. Jay recovered and finished the fight with a well-placed critical after wiping the mud out of his eyes. We built a fight naturally that seemed right out of a movie. That is fantastic, but our combatants didn’t move around like they do in the movie versions. Again, something has to be done to get the Swashbuckler moving; with Acrobatics he can do it, but there is usually no reason to do so.
If there needs to be an improvement in the class the number one recommendation I have is reward the Swashbuckler for moving rapidly about the field. If not, he becomes and almost Swashbuckler rather than the full feel. The second is using a Swashbuckler’s weapon group for Swashbuckler Finesse so the class gets the classic combat styles of the Swashbuckler while making it not so alluring as a multi-class level dip option.
However, we found that a minimum of 3 panache is required for the player to feel comfortable spending points. Since Int is now only needed for skill points and not the various Combat Expertise feats, this isn’t the issue it once was with so many attributes being required...I'm afraid you are incorrect. RAW, you may ignore the Int requirement for Combat Expertise, but all of the subsequent skills have their own Int 13 requirement. While this might be an oversight, as it stands now, you still need Int 13 for Improved Trip, etc.
We went with the assumption that this would be changed. Otherwise, it's a useless addition to the rules.
|
|
Here are some Paizo written abilities from various classes that could be useful for a Swashbuckler:
Fighter (Mobile Fighter)
Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Fighter (Dawnflower Dervish)
Burst of Speed (Ex): At 3rd level, a Dawnflower dervish takes only a –1 penalty to her AC after charging. At 7th level, the Dawnflower dervish can charge with no penalty. This ability replaces armor training 1.
Desert Stride (Ex): At 7th level, a Dawnflower dervish can move through 10 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain. This benefit stacks with the benefits provided by the Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves feats. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a Dawnflower dervish can combine a full attack with a single move. She must forgo the attack at her highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during her movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Lightning Strike (Ex): At 15th level, as part of a full attack, a Dawnflower dervish can make one additional attack. This attack is at the dervish’s highest base attack bonus, but each attack in the round (including the extra one) takes a –2 penalty. This ability replaces armor training 4.
Rogue (Pirate)
Swinging Reposition (Ex): At 2nd level, a pirate incorporates a ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures into her combat style. Provided she is wearing light armor, when fighting in an environment where such structures exist, the rogue incorporates them into her Acrobatics checks by grabbing hold of the structure and swinging toward her opponent, making either a charge or a bull rush maneuver. Once she completes her attack or maneuver, she can reposition herself. Immediately after making the charge or bull rush, she can move 5 feet as a free action, even if the charge ends her turn. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces the 2nd-level rogue talent.
Prestige Class Chevalier
Aura of Courage (Su): A chevalier has an aura of courage like that of a 3rd-level paladin.
Recklessness (Ex): Sometimes hasty action proves more useful than even the best laid plans. A chevalier gains a morale bonus equal to his class level on attack and damage rolls on the round he enters a battle. A chevalier only gains this bonus against an opponent (or group of opponents) once per day. Thus, he cannot leave a battle and reengage moments later to gain the benefits of this ability more than once in the same battle.
Controlled Charge (Ex): At 2nd level, a chevalier no longer takes a –2 penalty to AC when charging.
Stubborn Mind (Ex): At 3rd level, a chevalier gains an incredibly stubborn determination. If he is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw (though this does not prevent him from using other means to break the effect, such as a rogue’s slippery mind ability).
Poison Immunity (Ex): At 3rd level, a chevalier becomes immune to poison.
Prestige Class Duelist
All of them really but especially:
Enhanced Mobility (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square.
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
I love the pirates reposition, but I mostly play PFS and wouldnt play a pirate as this bonus is very GM conditional, for instance if I was GMing I would rule that ropes, clotheslines, overhanging branchs, cranes, etc (ie non sea versions of the rigging etc) would also give the bonus (see: "and other such structures"). But a lot of GMs might rule that this only means shipboard rigging (and they are probably right).
Would love to see a less restricted version of this for the swashy though, basically the above without the sea themed rigging requirement.
|
|
Here are some Paizo written abilities from various classes that could be useful for a Swashbuckler:
Fighter (Mobile Fighter)** spoiler omitted **
Fighter (Dawnflower Dervish)** spoiler omitted **
Rogue (Pirate)** spoiler omitted **...
Like I've said before, I would be totally ok losing some deeds in order to gain some abilities like this as class abilities. The biggest thing I've discovered is that between fixing your saves, taking feats to feel swashy, and feats to increase your dpr, you don't really have a lot of breathing room for unique building. Dipping helps, but that is a problem in itself, not a solution.
I would have to agree, wuxia films are the eastern equivalent of swashbuckler films in my opinion. Not necessarily with the charismatic front, but in the fighting types.
Would work better as a Swashbuckler/Monk hybrid though.
Sort of like the Swashbuckler class now...
Feros,
I like your idea of combining Targeted Strike and Menacing Swordplay, i hadnt thought of that one :)
I dont like this one though, "We found at 1st level the new Swashbuckler handled very well in combat and now matched up with the finesse rogue quite well and hit more often." If any full BAB, front line combatant, is comparable to a finese built rogue that is a level of fail. :(
I love the direction the class is going but the damage really jerks around at low levels still. A +1-2 damage for levels 1 and 2 going to +6-10 at level 3 or 4. (based on when a dex to damage feat comes on line and a second damage feat; power attack or weapon specilization.)
I should have said "surpassed" instead of "matched up." The Swashbuckler hit more often. But the truth is with light weapons, the damage output is going to be very similar. And if the Rogue gets a flank, he will do a lot more. Any smart Swashbuckler player will have his character move through combat to provide flanks for the Rogue.
The Targeted Strike/Menacing Swordplay combo is pure Swashbuckler goodness: disarming on rattling an opponent physically and then rattling him mentally with a witty barb that either makes the opponent surrender or be really put of his game. The more I play with it, the more of these little things come out that actually make some of the seemingly not-so-great abilities a bit more useful.
The Crane style series makes a lot of sense with one handed and light weapons. You have a free hand, two feet and the rest of your body to counter or deflect incoming attacks. Just watch all the fencing and musketeer movies. That´s essentially western style.
The only pity is that there are no feats using cloaks and hats, etc for defense or distraction. Only that one trait.
I could see some feats giving you more movement on countered attacks etc or using more of your environment to dodge attacks.
Although the pitfall of including a lot more rolls for a single character there should be avoided if possible.
Streamlining comabt and skills was once a great thing in Pathfinder, anyone remembers that?
How did you find your damage scaling? I know you jumped from 1 to 7 but what were your numbers like? Most characters i throw together at level 1 hit with a +3 or +4 for 1D6+1 or +2 and, like i mentioned before, take massive jumps ahead after the first few levels. It really irks me that the class doesnt seem to grow organically.
The big advantage is Precise Strike. From what I experienced in my first test of the Swashbuckler (pre-update), there was a massive change from 1st to 2nd on the to hit front with Swashbuckler Finesse coming on line at 2nd level. I had my character literally go from having a +1 to hit to +5 because of a Dexterity build and not taking Weapon Finesse at 1st level. That changed out and now it grows in ability to hit quite normally. The damage is alright as the extra +3 at 3rd isn't a huge jump any more than a Power Attack Feat or some other such being taken at that time. After that, increasing one every level is a pretty good flow and matches up with some Fighter builds nicely.
Having just run a campaign in which we had a prototypical Strength Fighter with an elven curve blade, Improved Critical, Power Attack, the Cleaves, etc. I can say that the Fighter is still able to put out massive damage levels. I can't see the Swashbuckler doing damage at that level, but I don't think that is a problem. The Swashbuckler is as much about style as substance.
|
|
The revised swashbuckler rules parry&riposte as a single deed. Parrying takes an AoO, the riposte takes an immediate action.
This is a change from the original version.
I don't like it either.
And that teach me not to keep the revised version and the original version in the same directory. I had checked the old version for my comment (but we tested the new version).
And that teach me not to keep the revised version and the original version in the same directory. I had checked the old version for my comment (but we tested the new version).The revised swashbuckler rules parry&riposte as a single deed. Parrying takes an AoO, the riposte takes an immediate action.
This is a change from the original version.
I don't like it either.
Lucky you. At least you still have the old version. I seem to have misplaced mine and I still need it.
Maybe it's on another computer.
I know it will be a heck of a jump but what where your hit stats like at 1 and 7? i'd guess around a +4 hit for 1d6+3 at 1 and +14 hit for 1d6+16 at 7?
My evil villain Swashbuckler started with a 14 Dex, as I wanted 3 panache as well as a well balanced character. Jay's had a 16. To Hit and damage for me at 1st was +3, 1d6+1. Jay's was +4, 1d6+1; but Jay had less skills as I had upped Int.
At 7th my Swash had +14/+9, 1d6+12, Jay's was +15/+10, 1d6+12 as well (+3 Rapiers and Belts of Incredible Dexterity +2). What this indicated to me was that keeping a higher Int score wasn't as debilitating over time as you might think. The difference between +15 and +14 to hit is fairly negligible.
|
i'd like to see a Wushu themed Archetype for the Swashbuckler that uses 2handed spears and polearms in a way similar to how most use 1handed slashing or piercing weapons. a graceful performance of the glaive yet a deadly combat style.
Wu-Shu is a very pretty martial art in the hands of a master, a gorgeous performance of great elegance. the archetype would focus on the style's elegance.
yes, finesse spears and polearms getting dex to hit and 1.5x dex to damage. it could also be used as a stand-in for Naginata-do and similar styles.
Lu-Bu would be pleased
agility aside, how does ANY of that say swashbuckler? that says
"agility based martial artist" its something that you want to see but does not fit in with the class by any stretch.it's an Archetype that changes the swashbuckler as much as the Zen Archer changes the monk, the Swashbuckler could have Archetypes with Radically different agility based options and could be a dumping ground for agile weapon masters in a way similar to how the Alchemist is a dumping ground for scientists
it's not very Errol Flynn, but it's Very Wuxia, which is like the chinese equivalent to highly cinematic swashbuckling and shares the styles of daring and panache.
just as Swashbucklers take on thousands of similarly armed and inferior skilled men with a foil, Wu-Shu masters do the same with a Spear or polearm in heavier magnitudes against enemy spearmen.
both use a lot of parry and riposte
both use a bit of precision and a lot of choreography
both use a lot of wire fu
both are relatively flashy and bold
I would have to agree, wuxia films are the eastern equivalent of swashbuckler films in my opinion. Not necessarily with the charismatic front, but in the fighting types.
Would work better as a Swashbuckler/Monk hybrid though.
without a doubt I could see this being a prestige class but on a more base archetype I wouldn't. Much Like i can see a Gun-kata styled archetype(Equilibrium-esk)
|
|
Inigo: You are using Bonetti's defense against me, uh?
Man In Black: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro.
Man In Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa,which I have!
+1 gold for this comment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
+1 gold for this comment.
Inigo: You are using Bonetti's defense against me, uh?
Man In Black: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must expect me to attack with Capo Ferro.
Man In Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro, don't you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa,which I have!
Yeah... I think there is a big hole missing where weapon group fighting style feats should be. This sort of thing should 100% be added as a new set of "Fighter-Only" feats.
Fighter could use a boost, and it would spill on to the swashbuckler. There are a ton of possibilities and they could work just like Monk styles, with a limitation on using just one at a time. Sadly, I think that a lot of the better ideas that would have been fighting styles got taken up by fighter archetypes...
But still.. this would be much appreciated.
Here are some Paizo written abilities from various classes that could be useful for a Swashbuckler:
Fighter (Mobile Fighter)** spoiler omitted **
Fighter (Dawnflower Dervish)** spoiler omitted **
Rogue (Pirate)** spoiler omitted **...
Those all seem like good candidates to adapt a bit into deeds and replace some of the cruft on the current list, really.
Yeah, fighter combat style with a bonus to will save would be a nice patch.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, fighter combat style with a bonus to will save would be a nice patch.
Well it seems like there was a big power shift when barbarians got Totem powers. These are really fun, and flavorful, and powerful. I like them a lot. But fighters have been left out in the cold for quite a long time. Their archtypes are generally not very good, and I can see why... the fighter doesn't have a lot to give up except for Bravery. Weapon and Armor training are way too good to let go.
So, what a fighter does have are feats... and that would be the place to put Weapon Styles... there are already a few supported themes like Shield Bashing... and other weapon styles wouldn't need to deviate too far from that line of thought.
The three step style format of martial artist style feats works really well. The built in prerequisites means that the top level feat can be pretty powerful without being overpowering. (For all the bluster about Crane style, it takes Dex 13, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike and Three Crane feats to get it all going, which is a serious investment for anyone who doesn't play or dip Monk)
Unfortunately, a lot of the cool sounding feats like Net and Trident, Whip Mastery, Quarterstaff Master, Sword and Pistol etc. end up being needlessly weak. Setting up styles that actually work would be a welcome change.
BTW Crane style is very appropriate for fencing-esque weapons. One of my best friends attended a high school in which the only sports 'team' was fencing. He eventually became captain, and has kept up his studies in both tournament (points) and traditional (knowing how to kill) fencing styles.
Depending on what kind of weapon you were facing, you really could just slap the blade away with your hand. Many rapiers, for instance, didn't have a sharpened edge, they were purely thrusting weapons. Essentially, giant needles. Those weapons could be just slapped away with your bare hand without injuring yourself as there was no edge to cut you with.
Otherwise, you could slap it away with a thick leather glove (duelist gloves). In this instance, you had to know to slap the blade straight away, and make sure not to drag your hand along it because you might cut through the leather if the blade were sharp enough.
In addition, slapping the blade away would often open up holes in the opponents defense, allowing them to strike (riposte).
I would recommend watching the film Reclaiming the Blade for some interesting history on blades. It features many of the well known 'swashbucklers' or sword fighters from movies, and features commentary from Bob Anderson, the guy responsible for some of the best sword scenes in movie history. He was also the coach for people like Errol Flynn, Carey Elwes, Viggo Mortensen and was the stunt double and choreographer for Darth Vader's lightsaber fights in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.
So when you start talking about Swashbuckling based off films, Bob Anderson is, essentially, *the* guy to talk to. But he passed away in January of 2012.
You know, this could be an incredibly awesome coup for the dev's. A backwards patch for fighters through fighters feats with all kinds of hybrids that can take advantage of new feats to make it worth the word count... If this is the plan, well props is all I can say.
So would a "pirate style" or "fencing style" or like say... "Brigand style" have hefty prereqs that would be easier for swashies to meet? Dex 13, weapon finesse, dazzling swordplay for instance?
Well if you make them "fighter-only" you can keep pretty strict controls on who gets access, which can justify a higher power level. Barbarians, for example, don't need any help.... so a nice Polearm style would only really help fighters (And possibly warpriests). The weapon restrictions for Magi Brawlers and Swashbucklers would keep it very much in check.
As for prerequisites, I think that Monk Style feats are a good baseline for determination. It all depends on the style being used. If it makes liberal use of a maneuver, then you may need that maneuver... or it could supplant the traditional maneuver feat for one that doesn't have combat expertise/int 13 as a prerequisite, but only works when using a particular weapon set.
Combat Performance feats are an interesting sort of style to go for, but once again are super feat intensive... and this style ends up requiring feats and skills that you just won't use.
And yes, it would be a nice backwards patch for fighters, who would have the most universal access (since they aren't pushed toward any one weapon type or style) and the most feats to work with. One could even go as far as to posit that only the Fighter could use multiple styles concurrently.
But it isn't a big stretch to start thinking about "stances" or fighting schools. There were quite a few of them over the years and they aren't a purely eastern concept as the current style feats may suggest.
I, for one, would actually like the fighter to be the best pure martial (in terms of combat prowess) in the game. The barbarian and ranger pretty much just outclass the fighter right now, and since they both have greater utility it makes sense that the fighter should be king of... you know... fighting.
I would still be fine with the barb being the faster more skirmishy two-hander guy, and the ranger being better against favored enemies etc... since that is their niche. But the fighter should be THE best straight up fighting class.
|
|
I should have said "surpassed" instead of "matched up." The Swashbuckler hit more often. But the truth is with light weapons, the damage output is going to be very similar. And if the Rogue gets a flank, he will do a lot more. Any smart Swashbuckler player will have his character move through combat to provide flanks for the Rogue.
Having played a level 1 Swashbuckler in PFS, I felt like I was playing a Rogue without Sneak Attack, rather than a full BAB martial character.
I also had the worst Fortitude Save in the party, and the party included 2 Wizards and an Arcanist!
My damage was 1d6+2, whereas the Bloodrager did 2d6+13. I felt completely outclassed.
A full BAB martial character should be able to do two things:
1. Deal damage.
2. Survive in combat.
The Swashbuckler cannot do either of these at low levels due to its low damage output and bad Fortitude Saves. If you see a Ghoul, run!
I should have said "surpassed" instead of "matched up." The Swashbuckler hit more often. But the truth is with light weapons, the damage output is going to be very similar. And if the Rogue gets a flank, he will do a lot more. Any smart Swashbuckler player will have his character move through combat to provide flanks for the Rogue.Having played a level 1 Swashbuckler in PFS, I felt like I was playing a Rogue without Sneak Attack, rather than a full BAB martial character.
I also had the worst Fortitude Save in the party, and the party included 2 Wizards and an Arcanist!
My damage was 1d6+2, whereas the Bloodrager did 2d6+13. I felt completely outclassed.
A full BAB martial character should be able to do two things:
1. Deal damage.
2. Survive in combat.The Swashbuckler cannot do either of these at low levels due to its low damage output and bad Fortitude Saves. If you see a Ghoul, run!
Well there is some element of choice involved in that... you clearly chose to go for Dex over Strength... and Strength + a Two-Hander is without a doubt the best level 1 option. Precise strike isn't online yet (and would only be +1 dmg anyway).
I think that the Dex-Damage feat that may be coming might be something that solves the level 1 problem assuming that the only prerequisites are Dex X and Weapon Finesse.
The fort save thing... yeah that is a pain... and the only good solution presented so far is to just give the swashbuckler a strong fort save.... because its a melee class... and melee classes should have strong fort saves.
I thought of some more things that I think no-one has mentioned.
AC and Parry have a negative synergy - the more AC you have, the less benefit you get out of parry. This means that Strength and Parry have a positive synergy compared to Dexterity and Parry. Both Strength And Dex makes you better at hitting, and thus at parrying, but since Dex also increases your AC Strength gets a larger net benefit from parry. Strength really did not need another thing going for it.
Also, some other things that are pretty obvious, but I've not seen anyone point out:
Parry and Power Attack have a negative synergy - Power Attack makes you worse at parrying.
Fighting defensively and parry have an extreme negative synergy - fighting defensively both increases AC and punishes parry.
Dexterity's synergy with parry is more AoOs. Only the Dex builds can afford to parry every last attack with Signature Deed.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Feat idea:
Rapid Strike
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: When you make a full attack with a single one handed weapon that benefits from weapon finesse you may make an extra attack at your full Base Attack Bonus. All attacks this round take a -2 penalty.
Does a little bit to let einhanders catch up to the TWFers. It's basically rapid shot.
|
|
Dexterity's synergy with parry is more AoOs. Only the Dex builds can afford to parry every last attack with Signature Deed.
It's true as many people will happily note AC eventually provides diminishing returns, but a swashbuckler still has the strongest defence bs attacks thanks to Parry + Signature Deed.
Feat idea:
Rapid Strike
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: When you make a full attack with a single one handed weapon that benefits from weapon finesse you may make an extra attack at your full Base Attack Bonus. All attacks this round take a -2 penalty.Does a little bit to let einhanders catch up to the TWFers. It's basically rapid shot.
Heh... "Catch-up to the TWFers"... While I like the idea of this feat, I don't think we need to worry about dealing less damage than TWFers...
TWF takes lots of feats and money... I don't mind they dealing more damage. They should be rewarded for such high investment.
Hey everyone,
We are nearing the last hours of the playtest, so I just wanted to pop in here and thank everyone who played, commented, and filled out their survey. And remember, if you want to update your survey you have a little more than an hour to do so...so please go HERE and do that. The survey closes with the playtest at 5 p.m. PST.
It's been a blast! And thanks agains for the wonderful help, playtest reports, stimulating discussion, and dedication to the game. We appreciate it.
Hey everyone,
We are nearing the last hours of the playtest, so I just wanted to pop in here and thank everyone who played, commented, and filled out their survey. And remember, if you want to update your survey you have a little more than an hour to do so...so please go HERE and do that. The survey closes with the playtest at 5 p.m. PST.
It's been a blast! And thanks agains for the wonderful help, playtest reports, stimulating discussion, and dedication to the game. We appreciate it.
Due to the great disparity between a low-level and a medium to high level swashbuckler, your survey design is unfortunately not able to cover my impressions.
Due to the great disparity between a low-level and a medium to high level swashbuckler, your survey design is unfortunately not able to cover my impressions.
Well, thank you for filling it out and participating on this board.
I think that the Dex-Damage feat that may be coming might be something that solves the level 1 problem assuming that the only prerequisites are Dex X and Weapon Finesse.
The fort save thing... yeah that is a pain... and the only good solution presented so far is to just give the swashbuckler a strong fort save.... because its a melee class... and melee classes should have strong fort saves.
I really hope it's available at first as a swashbuckler. Otherwise, even if it's just for 2 levels, the prestige problem is back, where you have to totally go against your character concept when first starting because the bread and butter of it is not yet online at all.
Feat idea:
Rapid Strike
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: When you make a full attack with a single one handed weapon that benefits from weapon finesse you may make an extra attack at your full Base Attack Bonus. All attacks this round take a -2 penalty.Does a little bit to let einhanders catch up to the TWFers. It's basically rapid shot.
That's a very interesting option. I realize it DOES sound crazy to be worried about falling behind someone with two weapons, but with this class, the real issue being addressed is falling behind on panache flow. I'd still prefer to just give normal crits to precise strike as the fix there, but this would absolutely be an acceptable tradeoff. Not something worth really worth considering for level-dippers (except for magi I suppose, red flag there, might want to make precise strike or some other class feature a prerequisite), doesn't completely invalidate two-weapon swashies (they still get more attacks at the same penalty and access to some fun options with feats, plus crit damage, and no worries about things being precision-immune.
Again though, the fort save is the real make or break issue right now.
