A couple of comments:
If you don't see the utility of having Scribe Scroll for a class with a small list of Spells Known, remember that the skald can use that feat in tandem with another spellcaster to create useful scrolls—scrolls that other caster can cast, or scrolls the skald can cast with Use Magic Device (or without UMD, if they're on the skald's spell list but not something he'd use so often as to want to actually learn it as a spell known).
And while Earth skalds shared oral histories, a skald in a fantasy world might not have that cultural tradition.
There's that utility versus thematics thing again. The skald would love Scribe Scroll, I'm sure. But why do they have it? Why do they deserve it? Bards don't have it... are they more scrollish than a bard? That seems weird. I thought spell kenning was the class's "oh yeah, I have one of those," powers. Adding Scribe Scroll seems like fixing the same problem twice.
So I would rather have something else in that slot instead, that is also good, instead of Scribe Scroll.
What if they get Brew Potion in place of scribe scroll. The Witch can get the Cauldron Hex at first, why not the Skald. Also seams to fit more with the class.
Skald "Drink this if you are injured in battle," pulls out strange liquid.
What if they get Brew Potion in place of scribe scroll. The Witch can get the Cauldron Hex at first, why not the Skald. Also seams to fit more with the class.
Skald "Drink this if you are injured in battle," pulls out strange liquid.
Eh. Honestly I prefer Scribe Scroll.
Theres just the simple fact that as the ages go on, written history is just flat out better. It's more accurate and less prone to disaster heh.
I imagine there was a great deal of knowledge lost during Earthfall. I like to believe that anyone who calls themselves a Historian learned their lessons from the folks who died taking their knowledge with them.
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Someone mentioned this on another thread, but it would be very nice if the ACG included a sidebar or reminder to clarify just what a character can or can't normally do while raging.
The skald himself ignores his own restrictions, but his allies (who never expected to rage when they builttheir characters) still are restricted, unless they refuse the rage for a round. Meanwhile, the bloodrager from the same book is also modifying how rage works. Sure, the text from the barbarian's section is clear enough in most cases, but adding new class features and new corner cases (and especially the Skald, granting rage to characters and classes who would never have dreamed of having it) is bound to make players stop and scratch their heads.
What if they get Brew Potion in place of scribe scroll. The Witch can get the Cauldron Hex at first, why not the Skald. Also seams to fit more with the class.
Skald "Drink this if you are injured in battle," pulls out strange liquid.
Eh. Honestly I prefer Scribe Scroll.
Theres just the simple fact that as the ages go on, written history is just flat out better. It's more accurate and less prone to disaster heh.
I imagine there was a great deal of knowledge lost during Earthfall. I like to believe that anyone who calls themselves a Historian learned their lessons from the folks who died taking their knowledge with them.
Scribe Scroll for mechanical reasons allows for the character in question to create scrolls that contain spells for use at the caster's convenience. Flavorful reasons, it is commonly taken (or had) by those who master the Arcane to further their study and practice.
In what manner is transcribing the knowledge of ancient history the same as writing out a scroll containing Magical Arcane energies to be harnessed by those who are able to? Other than that they both require a quill dipped in ink to create, they are hardly similar, both mechanics and flavor-wise.
As far as I'm concerned, Skill Focus [Profession (Scribe)] is more fitting for the Skald's flavorful purpose with "transcribing the knowledge of ancient history" than Scribe Scroll, which is the training of writing down the glyphs and runes of a spell from a book onto a scroll for use, and quite frankly not all Skalds are able to read, much less write.
And what's more is that while the Skald may use other spellcasters for scroll creation, they still have to follow the rules of anyone else who isn't that class for the purposes of using spell-completion/spell-trigger items; they must have levels in a class that has whatever spell on that scroll on their spell list in order to cast. Otherwise it's back to UMD, and while the Skald (a type of Bard) is more notorious than any other sort of class to have UMD specialty, it defeats the purpose of having abilities such as Spell Kenning, which is actually superior in all aspects at this point.
I'm not opposed to the Skald getting a bonus feat or two, since they're lacking in other areas, but I believe it should be like a Monk, Fighter, or Ranger's Bonus Feat; it needs to be chosen from a set list of options that the Devs can create. Feats such as Expanded Arcana, Combat Casting, Power Attack, etc. of which do not need to fulfill the pre-requisites.
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Someone mentioned this on another thread, but it would be very nice if the ACG included a sidebar or reminder to clarify just what a character can or can't normally do while raging.
The skald himself ignores his own restrictions, but his allies (who never expected to rage when they builttheir characters) still are restricted, unless they refuse the rage for a round. Meanwhile, the bloodrager from the same book is also modifying how rage works. Sure, the text from the barbarian's section is clear enough in most cases, but adding new class features and new corner cases (and especially the Skald, granting rage to characters and classes who would never have dreamed of having it) is bound to make players stop and scratch their heads.
That's a valid point.
Scribe ScrollCombat Casting
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At the minute I'm in the camp that thinks that the skald is too close to bard.
A few people have mentioned the skald is a little light on skill points compared to the bard. The standard suggestion, and perhaps the obvious one has been to give the skald the 6 + int skills of the bard.
Whilst I can certainly see the merit in this suggestion, I think it unfortunately pushes the skald even closer to being an archetype of bard, rather than a new class synthesising bard and barbarian.
One potential way to address this might be to change the skald's casting stat from charisma. I'm aware that this would break from the current broad pattern, whereby prepared divine casters use wisdom to cast, prepared arcane casters use intelligence and spontaneous casters (of either stripe) use charisma.
This would not be without precedent: paladins are a prepared caster using charisma and inquisitors are spontaneous casters using wisdom.
I think that thematically there could be an argument for the skald casting off wisdom, possibly with raging song coming off wisdom as well.
However, as casting off wisdom appears to be a principally divine magic trait I suggest a move to intelligence, it seems to tie in with the knowledge focus of the class and would tend to provide the additional skill points in synergistic manner rather.
I'm certain that there are aspects of this suggestion that I've not considered that will cause problems, but I offer it up for debate as an alternative to extra skill points.
I still don't think this class is powerful enough. It is going to spend a lot of time running out of rage song at low levels and a lot of time at higher levels falling so far behind proper martial classes that they are essentially a noncombatant. Like: it would be nice if the Skald got some other ways to buff just herself at higher levels to not fall behind as much.
Also: rage song still won't be taken by any caster and anyone who gets their own better rage (read: 1/2 of all classes at least).
Is all this REALLY working as intended? If these things are goals or balance points then I will stop talking about it.
I mean: giving out rage powers are cool, but thinking back to my last three parties they would be essentially useless in all three (as they either had dex fighters or Barbarians as the soul melee combatants or were all full or half casting classes).
I DO look forward to giving a bipedal eidolon pounce, though.
so any word on whether raging song counts as bardic song for feats like lingering song and such?
I still don't think this class is powerful enough. It is going to spend a lot of time running out of rage song at low levels and a lot of time at higher levels falling so far behind proper martial classes that they are essentially a noncombatant. Like: it would be nice if the Skald got some other ways to buff just herself at higher levels to not fall behind as much.
Also: rage song still won't be taken by any caster and anyone who gets their own better rage (read: 1/2 of all classes at least).
Is all this REALLY working as intended? If these things are goals or balance points then I will stop talking about it.
I mean: giving out rage powers are cool, but thinking back to my last three parties they would be essentially useless in all three (as they either had dex fighters or Barbarians as the soul melee combatants or were all full or half casting classes).
I DO look forward to giving a bipedal eidolon pounce, though.
Keep in mind that you choose whether you want the benefits and restrictions of Ragesong on a turn by turn basis. At high levels through Spell Kenning, you have insane buff potential.
so any word on whether raging song counts as bardic song for feats like lingering song and such?
Can a Skald pick lingering performance (or extra performance) as a feat or will you include l lingering range song as a feat?There will be skald equivalents of that and similar bard feats, yes (or clarification that a skald could apply such things to his raging song).
I still don't think this class is powerful enough. It is going to spend a lot of time running out of rage song at low levels and a lot of time at higher levels falling so far behind proper martial classes that they are essentially a noncombatant. Like: it would be nice if the Skald got some other ways to buff just herself at higher levels to not fall behind as much.
Also: rage song still won't be taken by any caster and anyone who gets their own better rage (read: 1/2 of all classes at least).
Is all this REALLY working as intended? If these things are goals or balance points then I will stop talking about it.
I mean: giving out rage powers are cool, but thinking back to my last three parties they would be essentially useless in all three (as they either had dex fighters or Barbarians as the soul melee combatants or were all full or half casting classes).
I DO look forward to giving a bipedal eidolon pounce, though.
My remedy to that would be threefold;
1: Rage powers are given to allies passivly, weather or not they accept the rage2: (related to the above) slightly more rage powers, not a ton but some,
3: (and this is probobly wistfull thinking) while using raging song, a skald is a Full bab class
so any word on whether raging song counts as bardic song for feats like lingering song and such?Can a Skald pick lingering performance (or extra performance) as a feat or will you include l lingering range song as a feat?There will be skald equivalents of that and similar bard feats, yes (or clarification that a skald could apply such things to his raging song).
ah, i see. though, why go through the trouble of reprinting similar feats when theres perfectly good ones already there?
@ PepticBurrito: And it's not like the Skald can't use scrolls, that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that both thematically and mechanically, a Skald shouldn't be specializing in scrolls, especially considering history books and ancient texts have little to no impact on being able to create a scroll ensorcelled with powerful magics. (For the record, yes, I am referring to The Elder Scrolls game with the image.)
If the intent is that the Skald is to be a Troubador of War Stories, a Dirge of the Battlefield, a Scribe of the Ages, then there are better bonus feats to select that cover these themes that are not only more favorable mechanically, but better fitting of such character concept thematically.
@Kekkres: The first account would be reasonable, except by this logic Barbarians should have access to their Rage Powers when they're not Raging. That's not the case.
The second account, I am sure will be expanded, though I believe that the Skald should have Rage Powers that don't specifically affect his allies; some Rage Powers (or I'd rather they rename it to be Chant Powers to accompany my suggestion of the Rage Powers applying to things other than allies) should enhance or amplify the effects of any current performances they have (such as expanded radius).
A Skald is technically a hybrid; the fact it can cast in Medium Armor without fail (and I think he has D10 Hit Dice now) is more than enough sustain for the battlefield, and easily replaces any Rogue in the standard group on that factor alone. Making it a Full BAB class eliminates one of the few major drawbacks needed to make this a non-overpowered class (Fighter 2.0?), even if only temporary.
Even so, it's important to look on the other side of the detriment spectrum; debuffing enemies accomplishes the same thing as buffing allies, and some performances that emulate such subjects would be the next step in a Skald Performance.
Debuffing involves saves, so no it really isn't as effective at all. A hybrid is not going to have that one big attribute to make debuffs work, unless you have mechanics that eliminate the need to have combat statistics... which would be pretty weird on the skald, but make some sense on the investigator.
I still say Dirge of Doom should stack with Rage Song. It's just not good enough otherwise.
I also think Rage Powers should be offered at 1st and every 3 levels after (1, 4, 7, etc) instead of 3rd and every 3 after.
I also think Rage Powers should be offered at 1st and every 3 levels after (1, 4, 7, etc) instead of 3rd and every 3 after.
That would give the skald rage powers before the barbarian gets them.
I still don't think this class is powerful enough. It is going to spend a lot of time running out of rage song at low levels and a lot of time at higher levels falling so far behind proper martial classes that they are essentially a noncombatant. Like: it would be nice if the Skald got some other ways to buff just herself at higher levels to not fall behind as much.
Also: rage song still won't be taken by any caster and anyone who gets their own better rage (read: 1/2 of all classes at least).
Is all this REALLY working as intended? If these things are goals or balance points then I will stop talking about it.
I mean: giving out rage powers are cool, but thinking back to my last three parties they would be essentially useless in all three (as they either had dex fighters or Barbarians as the soul melee combatants or were all full or half casting classes).
I DO look forward to giving a bipedal eidolon pounce, though.
My remedy to that would be threefold;
1: Rage powers are given to allies passivly, weather or not they accept the rage
2: (related to the above) slightly more rage powers, not a ton but some,
3: (and this is probobly wistfull thinking) while using raging song, a skald is a Full bab class
Yes. 3 please. 3. Or bonuses that do the equivalent (if we don't want to give them the extra attacks early). Like: give the skald a +1 moral to attack at level 1 then another +1 at 5 and an additional +1 every 4 levels thereafter to a maximum of +5 at level 17.
This will allow the Skald to stay a relevant melee combatant at higher levels.
Sean, can I ask why the Skald has so few performance rounds? What is the Skald getting over the bard or the barbarian to cut his performance rounds in half? Is the class that much better at casting? I'm not sure where the equilibrium is for this class, which is kind of odd because bards are the class I play the most often.
I also think Rage Powers should be offered at 1st and every 3 levels after (1, 4, 7, etc) instead of 3rd and every 3 after.That would give the skald rage powers before the barbarian gets them.
Maybe skalds could get something slightly different then?
How about they can like "know" a bunch of rage powers. Like: at level 3, they can learn two rage powers but only apply to any given rage 1.
Then they get to "know" a new rage power at level 5 and every two levels thereafter.
HOWEVER. They may only apply 2 rage powers to a rage at level 6, 3 at level 9, 4 at level 12, and so on.
A form of Inspire Greatness on the Skald would be wondrous.
Debuffing enemies through Dirge of Doom is incredibly useful, since it's a -2 on most rolls with no save for the duration of the performance. However, this can also be accomplished easily with Dazzling Display if built for demoralizing. Additionally, a Skald get's Dirge of Doom one level after they get their third rage power and DR 1/-.
With that in mind, why would a Skald ever, EVER, use Dirge of Doom when they could be granting +4 Str/Con, +3 to Will saves, a full line of totem powers (claws, natural armor, and pounce as an example), and untyped DR 1? I can't see any combat encounter where causing the shaken condition on enemies (which can be ignored by creatures immune to fear effects) is more useful than the benefits of ragesong. Couple this with the low number of ragesong rounds a Skald has (15 at level 10 with 16 Charisma compared to a Bard's 25), and you can see that most of the time, if not all the time, a Skald will be better off using Ragesong.
The Skald shouldn't get Dirge of Doom as a second performance. Leave Ragesong as the class's main and only performance, but give it a Dirge of Doom like effect at level 10. For example :
Terrifying Ragesong : At 10th level, a Skald's ragesong can create a sense of growing dread in his enemies. In place of adding rage powers to the ragesong, a skald can cause enemies that hear his ragesong to become shaken. This only affects enemies within 30 feet that are able to hear the performance, and the effect persists for as long as the enemy is within 30 feet. This cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked, even if the targets are already shaken from another effect. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect, and it relies on audible components.
With this, Ragesong still provides it's normal buffs, but gives the Skald the choice of granting rage powers to his allies or debuffing his enemies. This also removes any and all bardic performance from the Skald, allowing it to only worry about Ragesong related effects, and further distinguishing it...
Really they should just get a free intimidate check on all foes within range of their rage-song when they start it.
Any time the Skald begins a Rage Song he may unleash a terrifying war cry as a free action. All enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the Skald's level + the Skald's Strength modifier) or be shaken for 1d4+1 rounds.
Special: Once an enemy has made a save versus War Cry (successful or not), it is immune to this power for 24 hours.
I would also change Rage Song entirely to be this:
A skald is trained to use the Perform skill to inspire allies (including himself, if so desired) to feats of incredible valor in combat. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, a skald can use Song of Glorious Valor for 2 additional rounds per day.
Starting a Song of Glorious Valor is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. A Song of Glorious Valor cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the skald is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round to maintain it. A Song of Glorious Valor counts as the bard’s bardic performance special ability for any effect that limits bardic performances, such as how many can be maintained at once.
A Song of Glorious Valor has audible components, but not visual components. Affected allies must be able to hear the skald for the song to have any effect. A deaf skald has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a performance. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to the Skald's performance.
Allies affected by the Song of Glorious Valor gain a +2 morale bonus to any one ability score, chosen by each ally at the beginning of the performance, and a +1 morale bonus on Will saves. Once this choice has been made, it cannot be changed until the Song of Glorious Valor ends and a new song is begun. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the song’s bonuses on Will saving throws increase by 1. At 8th and 16th levels, the song’s ability score bonus increases by 2. Each ally may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2.
At 7th level, a skald can start a Song of Glorious Valor as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a skald can start a Song of Glorious Valor as a swift action.
Debuffing involves saves, so no it really isn't as effective at all. A hybrid is not going to have that one big attribute to make debuffs work, unless you have mechanics that eliminate the need to have combat statistics... which would be pretty weird on the skald, but make some sense on the investigator.
Not all debuffs involve saves. Some just work, end of story. And for the record, debuffing causes reduction in enemy statistics, effectively raising the probability of your allies being more powerful when going up against said statistics. What's even more so is these debuffs are more likely to stack than buffs (since buffs of the same type don't stack, but nigh all of debuffs and penalties do). Saying Debuffs aren't effective due to a roll of the dice is fairly underhanded, as well as not fully accurate (some buffs require a roll of the dice to be effective as well; Mirror Images, for example).
Even with Saves, it's not like the Skald's Saving Throws are going to be extremely weak to throw at creatures. Will Saves are the most common Saving Throws to make, and the most devastating to throw at people, since Will Saves are the most likely weak save in the game. All other creatures almost always have good or superior Fortitude and Reflex Saves, and if the Skald is throwing those kinds of spells out, then he's just playing wrong according to optimizers.
**EDIT**
With that in mind, why would a Skald ever, EVER, use Dirge of Doom when they could be granting +4 Str/Con, +3 to Will saves, a full line of totem powers (claws, natural armor, and pounce as an example), and untyped DR 1? I can't see any combat encounter where causing the shaken condition on enemies (which can be ignored by creatures immune to fear effects) is more useful than the benefits of ragesong. Couple this with the low number of ragesong rounds a Skald has (15 at level 10 with 16 Charisma compared to a Bard's 25), and you can see that most of the time, if not all the time, a Skald will be better off using Ragesong.
Other Bardic Performances are useful, and neglecting them is silly. It's just as silly as a Bard who doesn't take what I can tell is the best spell in the game for them.
What if Raging Song could be made offensive? Sort of Raging Confusion as a spell-like ability?
I've got one question about the class. Is the Raging Song considered a bardic performance that can be used with the bard favored bonus from the Aasimar race?
I've got one question about the class. Is the Raging Song considered a bardic performance that can be used with the bard favored bonus from the Aasimar race?
Not yet. And I really hope it isn't. No race should have a gross advantage in a class.
Underhanded... really? I don't really think that applies to me thanks.
On the whole, there are few debuffs that do not require a save. You could probably count them on one hand. If the the Skald had debuff auras that required no save akin to dirge of doom, then I would welcome the change. They are different, however, than buffs in that if they have saves, hybrid casters have a hard time being consistent with them.
I do not believe that statement is untrue or misrepresenting truth in any way.
I've got one question about the class. Is the Raging Song considered a bardic performance that can be used with the bard favored bonus from the Aasimar race?Not yet. And I really hope it isn't. No race should have a gross advantage in a class.
Okie dokie and I agree. If it were possible, just cast Moment of Greatness to all willing allies to give them +8 STR and +8 CON at 6th level.
Okie dokie and I agree. If it were possible, just cast Moment of Greatness to all willing allies to give them +8 STR and +8 CON at 6th level.I've got one question about the class. Is the Raging Song considered a bardic performance that can be used with the bard favored bonus from the Aasimar race?Not yet. And I really hope it isn't. No race should have a gross advantage in a class.
Moment of Greatness is only for one roll. I appreciate you bringing the topic up however on the Aasimar bit. That is exactly the sort of thing the Devs should be careful around the wording for.
As it is, I don't believe you can take the Favored Class Bonus using the base class versions. We're limited to 1hp or a skill point right now.
Okie dokie and I agree. If it were possible, just cast Moment of Greatness to all willing allies to give them +8 STR and +8 CON at 6th level.I've got one question about the class. Is the Raging Song considered a bardic performance that can be used with the bard favored bonus from the Aasimar race?Not yet. And I really hope it isn't. No race should have a gross advantage in a class.Moment of Greatness is only for one roll. I appreciate you bringing the topic up however on the Aasimar bit. That is exactly the sort of thing the Devs should be careful around the wording for.
As it is, I don't believe you can take the Favored Class Bonus using the base class versions. We're limited to 1hp or a skill point right now.
True its one roll still gonna hurt though for receiver.
Little nuggets of strong potential like the aasimar for bards tend to slip through the cracks. Not that their cannot be a good option, just some are stronger than intended for a favored bonus. Perhaps the original intent for that was that since aasimar was a boon-only race, it would be more acceptable as not everyone would have one that is until suddenly aasimars, thousands of them.Curious to what favored bonuses they will give since most class abilities deal with Raging Song and Rage Powers.
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With the release of the ACG, I took and interest in the Skald Hybrid class.
Keeping with the description, which is of an obvious (Nordic) Ulfen bend, I would like to make the following suggestion. In regards to weapon proficiencies, exchange whip, rapier and sap for hand axe, throwing axe and battle axe.
I think this would add more flavor and help to define the class even better (more in line with a Viking-like culture) than it already is.
With the release of the ACG, I took and interest in the Skald Hybrid class.
Keeping with the description, which is of an obvious (Nordic) Ulfen bend, I would like to make the following suggestion. In regards to weapon proficiencies, exchange whip, rapier and sap for hand axe, throwing axe and battle axe.
I think this would add more flavor and help to define the class even better (more in line with a Viking-like culture) than it already is.
We have Martial Proficiency already.
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I don't know if complete access to Martial Weapon Proficiency is what the class needs.
Traditionally Skalds were not front line fighters, but came from a very war-like culture.
I think Skalds could also be represented to have an ability very similar to the (Improved) Intimidate Ability found in the Viking Archetype. Possibly with bonuses to his skill as the Skald increases in level, along with the decreasing the amount of time in order to intimidate. Intimidating foes that other characters are engaged with also seems very appropriate as he 'informs' the enemy of the great skill and accomplishments of those they are fighting... and about to meet their doom.
I don't know if complete access to Martial Weapon Proficiency is what the class needs.
Traditionally Skalds were not front line fighters, but came from a very war-like culture.
I think Skalds could also be represented to have an ability very similar to the (Improved) Intimidate Ability found in the Viking Archetype. Possibly with bonuses to his skill as the Skald increases in level, along with the decreasing the amount of time in order to intimidate. Intimidating foes that other characters are engaged with also seems very appropriate as he 'informs' the enemy of the great skill and accomplishments of those they are fighting... and about to meet their doom.
Well, that is what is in the document now. And I think the skald is still too weak if anything.
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Well, I know I will be in a very small minority when I say, I feel the power-level is getting ramped up too high. The class has some really nice abilities, I understand Medium Armor Proficiency, but why make them nearly as combat efficient (with complete weapon options) as fighters? I don't see the need.
I have played the class as it was originally released from 1st to 4th level in a fairly balanced RPG Group and was able to help and contribute to nearly every situation. The Fighter (Viking Archetype) and Barbarian loves having me around... although I do agree that Rage Songs need to last longer, the Wizard and Rogue, could have cared less.
The Cleric liked the additional healing particularly after combats...
Ultimately, Paizo will have the final call. I would caution that not every 'egg' should be placed in this basket.
Full martial proficiency doesn't let you use more weapons than you have hands. It's pretty limited in its power growth.
Base attack determines combat capability almost exclusively.
Also, how exactly are vikings or barbarians benefiting from the original release? They wouldn't have been able to use rage song at all. Did you guys just ignore that or something?
Full martial proficiency doesn't let you use more weapons than you have hands. It's pretty limited in its power growth.
Base attack determines combat capability almost exclusively.
Also, how exactly are vikings or barbarians benefiting from the original release? They wouldn't have been able to use rage song at all. Did you guys just ignore that or something?
Now they can use your rounds instead of spending their own.
At low levels, Barbarians still appreciated having a skald in the party even with the original rage interaction rules, because unless you hardly fight or only fight really easy enemies, 4+Con rounds/day isn't all that long.
Underhanded... really? I don't really think that applies to me thanks.
On the whole, there are few debuffs that do not require a save. You could probably count them on one hand. If the the Skald had debuff auras that required no save akin to dirge of doom, then I would welcome the change. They are different, however, than buffs in that if they have saves, hybrid casters have a hard time being consistent with them.
I do not believe that statement is untrue or misrepresenting truth in any way.
And that's still a welcome advance. Few performances require Saves, and those that do usually emulate spells that have Saves to begin with, and they generally focus on a single target.
My point is that the number spectrum works both ways, and functions on similar levels, and ignoring them due to a roll of the dice is a silly excuse to not select certain spells or abilities, especially when the character can most definitely be competent in their application.
Also, we're assuming the Skald is not a Full Caster. He still gets all of his spells per day and the such, he still gets access to all levels of Bard Spells the same as the Core, ergo it's still a Full Caster class; unless we're going based off of Full Caster = 9 Spell Levels, in which case other classes argue differently (Magus says hi).
However, it gets better armor to cast in and more weapon proficiency, more hit dice, etc. It's just more effective at being a hand to hand combat than the Core. As far as I'm concerned, the Skald still performs well and fills the form of what the Core Bard does quite nicely, and then some in the actual combat aspect.
A Battle Bard who can actually do melee now, but still is effective at buffing the party with Performances and Spells (even those he normally doesn't have access to)? What is there not to like about using debuffs to his advantage, and take direct advantage of them?
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Base Attack determines to hit bonuses, weapon proficiencies determine what weapons one can use effectively. Skalds with Halberds, Nodachi and Scizores seem to be a bit over the top, but again that is only my opinion.
The Viking Archetype doesn't receive the Berserker Ability until 4th level.
At low levels, Barbarians still appreciated having a skald in the party even with the original rage interaction rules, because unless you hardly fight or only fight really easy enemies, 4+Con rounds/day isn't all that long.-Joyd. Exactly.
Also, on occasion, the Barbarian would forego using his own rage and only benefit from the Ragesong, as it only had 1 round of after use fatigue.
Additionally, the Barbarian could conserve his own Rage ability or use as he saw fit, which was not dependent upon the Skald. The fact that the abilities did not stack from Ragesong to Character didn't seem to be that big a deal, and worked rather well.
I'm not sure what the relevance of the Magus statement is Darksol, it has class features that allow it to focus on it's dc deriving ability score (arcane accuracy) which the bard most certainly does not. When I mentioned hybrid casting, I was talking about 2/3 casters like the bard.
I am not ignoring something because of a roll of the dice. I am simply pointing out that save based debuffs are hard to accommodate on the bards chassis if they require saves.
I have already stated that the bard is one of my favorite classes, I am simply curious as to the reasoning behind giving the skald half a performance gas tank in addition to removing most of the skill features. I would think that the class would maintain the same number of performance rounds given the fact that the bard and the barbarian both share the same mechanic. It is confusing that the one thing the parent classes actually share in common is something that is getting cut in half.
In fact, I really feel that the biggest issue for this class is that development seems to be really stuck on making the skald similar to the viking loremaster from history, which is what the bard was based on in the first place. There is not enough hybrid in this hybrid.
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Suggestions:
- Drop Spellcasting
- Kennings are still possible as a SLA
- Rage Song should qualify for Bardic Performance feats.
- Full BAB/Level
What do you think?
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The numbers of performance should be fine (3+cha + 1/level). It's more than manageable. So guess we are going to see many CaGM Raging songs from level 12 and up with the Skald, this could be pretty beasty on a melee party but then again, haven't really seen many full on melee party.
Aaaaand that is still the big problem with the Skald.
Inspire Courage = Good for everyone in some wayRage Song = Good for fighters.
Rangers lose spell access and the ability to use Handle Animal (if they have a companion)
Pretty much all 6 level and 9 level casters are going to say no thanks so they can cast spells.
Any feint based rogues are out.
Ranged builds are getting a small benefit as long as they don't cast spells... none of the really attractive rage powers work with ranged attacks.
So really, it just helps fighters.
Letting the Barbarian take his own rage bonuses but not rage powers is a trap. Rage powers are what rage is all about... the only change from the last iteration of the skald is to basically let the barbarian get a +2 higher str/con (and a deeper AC penalty)
So... yeah... great class for a group with two or more fighters in it.
Which also brings up that the Skald, as written, is an archetype. This really isn't a new class that brings anything good to the table. It is ill-defined in its role, and it fails to play well with others.
Some version of controlled rage instead of regular rage would have been a better option, but really.... inspire courage is a great performance. Play a regular bard and you will get discordant voice and be granting a better accuracy/damage boost to your allies without locking out their abilities with this "buff".
Rage powers are reeeaaally good, but the number of other classes.... scratch that, the number of other players AT THE SAME TABLE, who will be benefiting is always going to be extremely limited. I do not like that this class is only effective with certain weird edge case group compositions... and unlike the core bard can't just be plugged in as the best 5th man in the classic Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue party. Seriously, go play through a test with those four Iconics and your Skald.... its sad.
Suggestions:
- Drop Spellcasting
- Kennings are still possible as a SLA
- Rage Song should qualify for Bardic Performance feats.
- Full BAB/Level
What do you think?
I still like them having 4 levels of casting, but I more or less agree.